Archive through October 06, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: USA 2002: General Discussion: A Final Thought: Archive through October 06, 2002

Puck1021

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
After taking a week to decompress and get through the BB withdraws, I thought I had to post one last time. A final thought so to speak. I hope the mods will leave it in its entirety. I will use some harsh word, but they are not directed at any one they will be used as a descriptive phrase. Also just as a quick side note I received an email from Real Player and they are giving the “Best of BB3” free of charge, I watched a couple of the clips and if you need a BB fix head to the Real web page.

Now on to the final thought.

I have read so many Anti Dani posts. I have nothing to gain in any way so please do not say I am a poor loser. Emotionally I wanted Lisa to win, but logically I wanted Dani to win. Therefore, either way the person I wanted to win, won. However with that said, this is what I learned from BB3

If you lie to win and you are a man, you are playing the game
If you lie to win and you are a woman, you are a b*tch

If you manipulate others to do your will and evict others and you are a man you are charismatic
If you manipulate others to do your will and evict others and you are a woman, you are a liar and a back stabber

If you throw the competitions in order to keep the target of your back and you are a man you are a skilful game player
If you throw the competitions in order to keep the target off your back and you are a woman you are a cheating b*tch

If you take about one HG to another in order to cast doubt on them and you are a man you are playing the game
If you talk about one HG to another in order to cast doubt on them and you are a woman you a trash talking rag

Dani made some real strategically unsound errors, the biggest was something she had no control over she was born a woman. There have been many comparisons with Will from last year to Dani this year, they played both the same game and yet their games were vastly different. Will was thought to be the most unliked by all in the house and that is why he made it to the end, Dani used Jason as an alliance and he did her dirty work and when she was in the house she was not disliked, she had some that did not completely trust her, but she was not disliked, until the DR interviews were shown to the HG’s and they were mad that she had fooled them. She trashed talked the HG’s and so did Will in the DR, but Will did it with humor and Dani seemed to do it with a little to much reality. Dani said that her DR’s were how she felt at the time, she let her emotions at the time dictate what she was saying. Will never let emotions get in the way of his game playing, he was straight forward and logical in his DR’s and that is part of what got him the respect of the evicted. Will had Chill Town in his corner, he knew he had a couple of votes locked and he never bad talked them to keep them locked. Dani should have used that and picked out a couple people like maybe Tonya and Amy even after she came back and never trash talked about them to keep them locked and to show the others as Will did that she could be loyal. Will was always loyal to all of Chill Town and Dani was only loyal to Jason and she let her emotions take over in the DR’s when she talked about the others. Will took Nicole with him to the Finals, if he had taken Hardy he would have lost and Dani took Lisa when she should have taken Marc. Will never lost his game and Dani did let her emotions take over when she should have kept them in better check. Now, comparing the way Dani played this game with the HG’s in BB3 Dani played the best game. We really did not get to see the game that the first few evicted would have played they were gone too soon, but from the ones we saw, Dani out played them, even Roddy, if she had not out played him he would have been in the final two and not her and he wasn’t, he was out played. I think Roddy showed very poor sportsmanship by lobbying the other evicted, to all vote against Dani, he had to have the last word and so in his mind he still won the game. I hope that CBS will figure out some way to keep the evicted from getting together in BB4. There was never this back door kind of politicking in the other BB’s the only thing that came close was George’s wife’s phone campaign, and the outcry of Cheating went up from all the boards. So, why was it ok for Roddy to mount his own campaign to sway the votes? One person was trying to sway the votes in one of the HG’s favor. What I am trying to say is that this behind the scenes vote swaying like Roddy did was never done before and should not be allowed, each HG should have to make up their own mind without the influence of another HG. I don’t care what anybody says Roddy has a something about him that lets him into people’s heads. He knows what to say and when to say it, he is intelligent and he knows people. I wish I could think of people that did well with that power, but unfortunately, the only two names that come to mind are Charles Manson and Jim Jones. That is almost the kind of power her has over the HG’s. What am I getting at and where am I going, you ask? Last year Will played the best game and he was rewarded by winning, he chose the right person Nicole) to take with him to the end. This year, even though Lisa was more likable than Dani, strategy wise Dani played a better game than Lisa, the only thing Dani did wrong was to take Lisa to the end, she should have figured out away with Jason to take someone else. Dani had the odds in her favor in the last HoH challenge with her and Jason both competing,, but she needed to hedge those odds and have had Marc in the final 3 and not Lisa. Lisa was more likable, but Dani played a better game.

I promise this is my last post this year in BB, but I will slip into other sections of the board, Draheid, your posts were a pleasure to read, Maris I completely enjoyed disagreeing with most of your posts :), there have been so many I enjoyed reading, Lance, Trully, Goddessoflaw, Ocean, Sanfran, Ryan (who posts so much….LOL…),and everybody else, all the posters, first timers and old timers. Until next year, may the rest of this year, keep you and yours safe and well. Thank You all for making it one hell of a summer.

Take Care All, Dave

Gail

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 09:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Puck, I agree with pretty much most of what you said. There is a difference in the way the viewing audience treat women and men. I personally get tired of the bashing of women because many times, the attacks are calling them •••••••, sluts, ••••••, etc and it gets old. When men are getting bashed, it is totally different. IT is directed at things they did, not against physical characteristics like the women get insulted for.

You would never see anyone trashing one of the male houseguests for his physical attributes or lack of but we sure do have to clean the board up for bashing of women's breasts whether they are large or small. If the men were to dance around in towels or something it would be funny. If women do it, it is trashy. Different standards. :(

Hope to see you up in the General Discussion area or in the Survivor threads Puck. You can spend the winter here with us at TVCH. :)

Woodpecke®

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Since this is Puck's last post of the season, I will refrain from dissenting on any of the comments he made directly. I know they weren't written to be discussed. I agree with very little of what he said, and find that many of his sentiments are lacking in specifics. I will say this as a response, however. I was not a fan of the way Danielle ended her game, and I was not a supporter of Roddy, either. Your sweeping generalities describing people's perception of the female gender as it applies to Big Brother 3 are too easy for me to refute. You are entitled to your view, even though I don't concur at all.

Loralyceallen

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It seems to me, that the majority of Pro-Danielle posters always say that she played the best game. I agree, but I rather put it that she played the game better than the rest. She forgot one vital component of the game. And it seems to me that the Pro-Dani posters forget also.

The game had to be won on all levels to be declared the winner. Dani did not put an ounce of effort toward even "faking" being respectful of the others. She flunked that level completely.

Lisa may not have excelled on any particular level, but she put in her time, luck was with her, and Danielle found out when Lisa had the internet chat, that everything was seen and heard and began her mental decomposition. It was almost chaotic, and exhibited extreme highs and lows.

Therefore, Lisa having put in her time on all levels, had no real strikes against her, and definitely the support of ex-hgs... well, she played the game best this season.

Dani did not play the game best, nor did she play the best game. I think she could have won if she took the chip off her shoulder, admitted she was wrong, even faked an apology of sorts... and she would have been judged on what she HAD done right and let slide on what she forgot to do.. be nice and show some respect. But oh no.... she had too much pride, and now less than she hoped for money.

I still think she made her mark as a good player.. could have been great.. but not even close to Dr. Evil. I had hopes she would get hilariously over confident, posing and joking about how great she was... laughing with us at how good she was doing. Instead, she had a brain freeze and got mean. She got to where she believed her own con.... and therefore lost sight of the real goal.

She wanted to beat "them", and show "us", more than she wanted to "play the best". It cost her.

Rosa

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Comparing Dani to Will is not what I saw. I saw Dani- Nicole. They both had a certain amount of contempt for the other houseguests which Will might have had but kept carefully hidden. I don't see the man-woman aspect. To me, Dani was just plain mean natured and I don't think that suddenly occured upon her entering that house.I also don't think it was because she played a man's game, she played a cruel game. There is no reason to imitate people and then tell them you love them. I do agree that Roddy held some weird hypnotic effect on the hg's, even the other men. I am glad they both lost the 500 thousand. My favorite did not win either as I found Lisa to be very arrogant and snobbish. I hope next year CBS can dispense with both the alpha male and alpha female types, they always rub me the wrong way. JMO

Seamonkey

Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I just saw Dani.. compared to.. Dani. She may have tried to lift certain techniques but what worked last year with different people really wasn't applicable.

Her game required a great deal of control and subterfuge.. to a point she excelled in this but "when she was good, she was very very good, when she was bad she was horrid".

The entire package was obviously not the best game.

=====

Puck, I agree that women and men are held to different standards and interpretations of similar actions. Not by me, of course, but I'm
evolved :)

But, the final choice was between two women, so that factor is less relevant.

==

Rosa, I agree with what you said, without the Nicole comparison. Dani did play a mean game
and amazingly this group of people didn't reward that at the end.

Adrian

Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 04:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My Final Thought:

The HG who played the meanest game did not get any vote from her fellow mean players.

The most gracious and sweetest HG who lived in the house sincerely, fittingly and symbolically gave his vote to the "meanest HG".

Cheers!
:)

Llkoolaid

Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 04:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ironic isn't it Adrian.

Chance

Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 06:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm not sure who "should" have won the game. But my take is somewhat different on BB3 and so far, maybe even Survivor this season. I feel as tho folks are being chosen more for their possible Jerry Springer-like potential to keep upping the anti, ratings wise. I bought the feeds then stopped watching the feeds and ultimately stopped reading many of the live feed postings cause so much nastiness occured...by a number of people endlessly trash talking in the house.
In past yrs I would have been annoyed at LFPosters not including details in LFPs tho I would not have voiced it cause they perform such a valuable, selfless service to others who can't afford or don't have acceess to the live feeds.
This year I came to understand then appreciate when live feed posters said, "and now another round of Gerry or Amy or Roddy or Chiara etc etc bashing begins" I got less and less enjoyment out of BB3 as the bash level increased. I disliked my OWN growing dislike towards certain members of the house. I got stressed and thats NOT entertainment. Occasionally I got testy with other posters and thats not fun for me or the few other posters I got stressed towards.
If next years BB4 seems to go in that direction I may choose to back away.
Tomorrow on Survivor, it appears we will be "treated" to physical confrontations and possibly sexual harrassment charges. If this is the growing trend, I feel like we will be soon descending into Christians get fed to lions in the roman colluseum stuff. I just don't want to go there. There are plenty of real life horrors...I don't need greater levels of contrived and manipulated negative, nasty situations created by possibly choosing more and more on the edge type players. I am less bashing the players than the shows and their seemingly escalating need to rachet up the drama at any cost
(or at least, to me, it seems to be heading in this direction.) I really hope I'm wrong.

What555456

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 09:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Dani made a strategic error by being honest in the DR. But that is not why she won second place.

The reason she took second place is because the evicted houseguests decided to vote as a block because their feelings and egos were hurt. They did not like seeing the truth spoken about them and they decided to punish the messenger.

Lisa did not win first place. Dani lost it. But she lost it because the people who voted acted as they had in the House -- like high school kids.

Niceguy

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
How would Dani behaved if the shoe were on the other foot?

We'll never know.

I don't think for one minute she would have been forgiving if she was insulted to the degree she insulted others.

JMHO.

Denecee

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree What, but I do like Lisa & hope she is doing well.

Cameramanbob

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 10:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for a good read everyone! It's good to get these re-thought views on the game with the perpective of a few days. And the added bonus - everyone here is so civil about it, too. (Just a lurker's two cents.)

Niceguy

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think CBS should seriously consider a winter BB edition. I'm amazed we're still talking about this.

Oregonfire

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Nooo, Niceguy, make it stop! My BB addiction is so powerful that the show can only happen once a year. I seriously limit my other reality show intake just to comphensate for the time lost focusing on BB three months out of every year. Maybe a winter edition would be good for those who aren't as addicted to the show.

Jagger

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 12:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My final thoughts, I really really am missing the live feeds. I can't really get into either Survivor or AR this year cause I'm still thinking of BB. Another final thought, I still wish Jason had won, but he didn't so life goes on.

I would love a winter BB, being from Minnesota there isn't much to do if you don't like the cold weather, so I would love a winterized BB, maybe do it in Alaska, lets see who could sit in a boat for 4 hours in 50 degrees below zero weather.

Cousin_Jake

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 05:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Niceguy ... I agree completely with what you posted. We'll never know how Dani would have reacted if she'd been evicted and then found out that people who she thought liked her were bashing her at every opportunity behind her back ... but we can guess. I believe that she would never have given her vote to that person. If it had been Lisa against Marcellus - same vote result IMHO. Dani and others keep saying that she lost the game in the DR - I disagree. I feel that she lost the game for her mean mouth in the house once the evicted HGs got out and saw or read what she had said about them to other HGs. That's where they felt the betrayal according to the post game interviews. There was no way she could have saved the game at that point. Of course, others bashed as well, especially Amy and Marcellus, but since they weren't there at the end, none of the others could show their anger by voting against them. She did not play a good game. She played part of the game very well but that was not enough and never will be with this format. As long as the evicted HGs get out and get to see or read what's happened, you must plan a way to evict people and still leave them feeling good about themselves. Otherwise, your goose is cooked. (I can't believe I still care about this!)

Alegria

Friday, October 04, 2002 - 06:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Cousin_Jake that was well said. You might enjoy this article...

bb3 recap

here's a quote from page 5:
"Okay, this is all I'm going to say about this. The only things there are in this game are (1) staying in the house; and (2) getting people to vote for you at the end. Those are the only two things you have to do. They are both legitimately part of the game. There is no reason in hell why anyone should vote for you in the second part because of how well you played the first part. Simply put, why should you hand half a million bucks to an ass? This isn't a game of skill in any sense other than making other people make decisions the way you want them to. There isn't anything to it -- no racing, no challenges, no games; not really. The only way Danielle "played the best" was in convincing people to do what she wanted and fooling them into not thwarting her. But she did a horrible job of securing votes at the end, which is equally part of the game. So I have had about all I can take of this "Danielle deserved to win" argument. There's no such thing as deserving to win in this game, except by making people want to vote for you. "I hate you" is a perfectly valid basis on which to vote, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't have voted for Danielle to win a penny, because she was cocky and arrogant and full of herself. And I love seeing people like that not get what they want."

Woodpecke®

Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 08:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"Simply put, why SHOULD THEY HAND half a million bucks to an ass?"

That is the point many of us have been trying to make for weeks. Nice job Alegria. There isn't a reason at all why Danielle deserves to win more than Lisa because of her so-called "harder playing." She lost because of the reasons you mentioned. She played a horrible game and got caught.

Joyful

Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 08:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My thoughts on Dani and Puck's post. First off Dani didn't take Lisa to the finals with her. She gave Jason his marching orders to oust Amy so Lisa was left. And second I think she earned the title <mod>. Not because she is a woman, the same behavior would be just as detestable in a man. I started out really liking Dani and her strategy, all of it, including throwing competitions. She was a smart lady but somewhere she lost it. Her game playing I compliment but her personal attacks, not in the Diary room but outside, were just horrendous. She offended me with the devil tirades, to me that is highly offensive and surprised me for her stating to be such a staunch Christian. One or two times maybe, but she wore that phrase out. What bothered me more than anything else was her statement that she would never talk behind someones back, only to their face. Not too long after that she tells Amy how much she loves her, cares for her and wants to be her friend. As soon as Amy left she begins to make fun of her. One thing I did notice about Will was this. His attacks tho personal ceased when the person was ousted. Danielle continued bashing when the people were gone. Now how is that strategic? She had a knack of judging others for the same behavior she displayed herself. I know it is a game and she put herself above others which is fine, but the manner in which she did it disgusted me. I am very happy she didn't win the money.

Rosa

Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 03:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Alegria, thanks for the link. That writer said everything I wanted to say all along and is hilarious. My only question is "why didn't everyone in the world see it that way?" It is obvious to any thinking person why the outcome was the way it was, thanks again.

Ladytex

Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 07:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh, so the people that don't agree with your opinion, Rosa, are not thinking people? Hmmm ...

Oregonfire

Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 07:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
That seems to be the general consensus about Dani fans. We're dumber than dirt and stick together in one big clump of stupidity, kinda like sh*t on the bottom of your shoe.

Alegria

Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 08:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregon, no ill will was intended, it's just so hard to let goooo...

(I have always enjoyed reading everyone's posts and think that the board represents the full spectrum of loyalties and opinions) For me the article expresses much better than I ever could how I perceived BB3 and the writer's conclusions were very satisfying to read (lol, because they agreed with my own!) Reading other people's interpretations has also been fascinating. We all agree that we had an interesting diversion this summer, right???

Oregonfire

Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 09:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Whatever.