Archive through September 29, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: USA 2002:
General Discussion:
L.A. Times Interviews Lisa and Danielle.:
Archive through September 29, 2002
Cindyluvsroddy | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 08:49 am     Well, statements like --- "the best player didnt win!!!" --- or --- "the HG's didnt vote for the best player!!" --- and --- "i don't accept the outcome of this game!!! --- yada, yada, yada - in my opinion, is not respecting that Lisa won and sounds like sour grapes... A statement that says "i wish Dani had won, she is my fav HG - but she didn't so congrats to lisa!!" is more in line of an attitude that is accepting the outcome of the game and shows good sportmanship. Bottom line - Lisa won - the HG's choose Lisa! Dani played well, but only good enough for second place - besides $50,000 is a nice chunk of change - so good for her as well as lisa! |
Seanflynn | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 09:54 am     Cindy Last night you wrote that Danielle was a sore loser Tell me -- does that article sound like a sore loser? |
Mags3 | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 12:28 pm     Thank you sampatsfan . I think it has to be sad that nobody made her a website while she was in the house. I know a couple others don't have one, but being able to stay in the game as long as she did, makes me feel a bit sad for her. I mean, theres tons to write about;). |
Wendo | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 12:50 pm     Spunky, I don't feel upset at all. Nor do I think many who disagree with the outcome feel that way either. (Honestly, it's not something to get upset about.) However, what DOES get frustrating is having to constantly deal with being told how to feel; people taking the debate to a personal level when it's not necessary. For example, those who oppose the outcome have been told that they have sour grapes (heck, look above), are sore losers, should "get over it", they haven't seen the light, they live in fantasy land, have tunnel vision, are clueless, and much, much more when, for the most part, we've been debating the game and its outcome. For myself, I haven't told how people should feel about the outcome, only my opinion of it. It would certainly be nice to be able to comment without being told I have sour grapes. ------------ Cindy said, "Well, statements like --- "the best player didnt win!!!" --- or --- "the HG's didnt vote for the best player!!" --- and --- "i don't accept the outcome of this game!!! --- yada, yada, yada - in my opinion, is not respecting that Lisa won and sounds like sour grapes... " I'm sorry Cindy, I disagree with you. The above are statements by people who disagree with the outcome and feel the best player didn't win. It is not sour grapes, it's an opposite opinion which you don't agree with. However, instead of debating the issue, you insult their comments by dismissing them as "sour grapes." Honestly, who would want to debate someone when the other person isn't even going to give the others opinion the time of day. As to the issue of sportsmanship, plenty of people who disagree with the outcome have been very sportsmanlike. In fact, they're not being dismissive of opposing opinions but pretty respectful, considering. Just because people wish to debate the issue does not make it "poor sportsmanship." In fact, that's why this board is here, to facilitate discussion and debate. That debate continues and people seem to dislike it, I cannot figure? ----- Mags3, actually, there are two other Dani websites that were up during the game. (I don't have the addresses.) They were very simple, basically just a few pictures and her bio. Also, I think there is/was a Yahoo! Group. There were places out there. |
Cindyluvsroddy | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 12:56 pm     wendo - hun, you have disagreed with anti-dani fans comments as well ... two way street i wish Dani luck in life - maybe when she views the tapes or some of the internet feeds (if someone taped it - she will have a better look at herself) |
Bmh | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 01:21 pm     Although I must say I haven't fully respected the opinion of those that dislike Dani..Cindy I gotta agree with Wendo on this one..he disagrees with some of anti-dani fans comments but respects them.. I on the other hand have not fully respected others opinions..and it is lookin like you don't either..I am basing this on the sentences Wendo quoted of your posts. It seems you are just happy Dani didn't win and Roddy got her in the end..well I am glad you feel that way..but I dont have sour grapes..I just feel Dani earned the win and Lisa didn't..simple as that |
Saggkl | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 02:14 pm     I didn't really care that much who won by the end. I had seen everyone put down and say some pretty insulting things about other house guest. Some worse than other. But I did think some of the votes where sour grapes, but then I wonder how sour grapes my vote would have been had I been on the recieving end of some of the comments. I would guess Dannis problem was saying things in the diary room and not just on the feeds. |
Rain | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 03:41 pm     I would have preferred Dani to win, but I must admire Lisa for her performance during the last HOH contest. I never saw such a look of determination on anyone's face before when she was sitting in that boat, rain pouring on her, her eyes dark and steady under that floppy hat. Heck, no wonder Dani gave up -- she could take one look at Lisa and tell that gal wasn't gonna give up. |
Lilliegirl | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 06:16 pm     I agree with EDEN, however that good person won pissed me off. How good was Lisa when she was laying on top of Eric and sleeping with him everynight, dont forget the first night she slept with Roddy, sounds like a real nice girl to me RIGHT? |
Mrdisguise | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 06:32 pm     Did they ever show Lisa badmouthing Gerry or calling him a pedophile? I don't recall seeing that on tv so it's possible that Gerry doesn't know that Lisa badmouthed him. |
Kappy | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 07:34 pm     Truly ~ Thanks for the article. I agree with Silversamba's comments about the "good" and "bad" people thing. The first time Lisa brought that up, it had to do with the pretty people in the house being good and the others were not-good. Kind of like how if you don't agree with another poster, then you're automatically a bad sport. But this was an unusual group of HG's to begin with and maybe they still don't realize they never were part of the "good" people to begin with and never will be(in that group's mind)? Anyways, it was really enjoyable to read what both ladies had to say. And I'm really glad to hear how happy Dani is and I hope she and her family enjoy their new house. |
Wendo | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 08:56 pm     Cindyluvsroddy said, "wendo - hun, you have disagreed with anti-dani fans comments as well ...two way street. i wish Dani luck in life - maybe when she views the tapes or some of the internet feeds (if someone taped it - she will have a better look at herself)" Yes, I do disagree with anti-Dani comments, however, I don't personalize it. I don't dismiss or discount people's opinions by stating they're nothing more than "sour grapes." I debate and disagree with people's opinions, but I don't just dismiss them away with simple statements such as "get over it" or "deal with it." That's the difference I see. You disagree, no problem. And, I wish Lisa well too, though I don't feel she should've won the game. |
Rosa | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 10:06 pm     I did not care for Lisa or Dani, finding them both very arrogant. I was an Amy fan from the minute I saw her but I also knew this pack of wolves would make mince meat of her. When I saw Amy's face at the last show I knew she had seen the tapes. I was so digusted with Dani's behavior that I was sure the rest of them were also, even though they all had bashed at one point or another. Dani's bashing imo was far beyond the others and then I saw her kind of hiding as they all came to the door, I knew Dani knew this too.I wonder also if Dani holding on to the key would have done any good? Wouldn't that have made the final vote 10-0 in Jason's favor? I am glad this junior high slam fest is over. |
Cmore | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:33 pm     Wendo, My saying "deal with it" has no bearing on your opinion or your right to express that opinion. Its not personal, its just the fact that Dani lost and its history. I do think its somewhat of a double standard when you think "deal with it" is personal to you, but statements like..... " Hell, I'm a viewer and I don't accept the final outcome as right! I think the EVH were a bunch of whining hypocrites." or... "Danielle, Stay way from those hypocrites! You do not need to explain." should not be personal to anyone else or that you failed to note these comments as getting "personal". Should we take it personal or consider ourselves a hypocrites because we agree with the jury? I certainly don't and I don't take it personal either. The jury had the right to vote ANY way they chose for ANY reason and the people who attack them and call them hypocrites are only being hypocritical themselves of a fair and just voting system, simply because the vote didn't go their way. To them I say "deal with it" because like it or not it was a FAIR and almost unanimious vote by 10 independant people. I don't believe the best person won, but i am not whining about it and calling other HG's all sorts of names because of it. I think Lori and Gerry were two of the best people in the game, but they were both evicted early and "I delt with it" I don't believe Dani even deserved 50K or second place, but she recieved it and I "delt with that" as well. We are all human and those of you who think Dani should have won so badly need to ask yourselves a heart felt question. If you saw her call you a bad mother or father and mocked you behind your back or gave you her word, then broke that word, would you have voted for her? I suppose some of you will say yes you would have put that all aside and voted for her gameplay alone, voiding your own personal feelings, but I also suspect that deep down inside you know you would have voted against her too, if she said those same things about you, even if you threw in a few digs here and there about others. After all it wasn't the EHG that were being judged, just the final two left in the game and we as humans forget so easily the harm we inflict on others, but never forget the harm inflicted on us. It just our nature and the EHG are no different than us. |
Kappy | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:45 pm     For the love of God ~ You wanted Dani to lose and she lost. So what is still bugging some of you people?! The fact that some people still LIKE Danielle? Accept that you can't change that! And leave Wendo alone! Free Wendo! Free Wendo! Free Wendo! |
Weinermr | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:48 pm     It's over people. It's all over. Survivor's on now. The World Series is coming soon. New challenges. New games. New experiences. |
Cindyluvsroddy | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 11:55 pm     Wendo - i have read many posts of yours complaining about anti-dani fans ... there is no difference however, i have no problem with it .. i was making a point that its a two way street here .. both sides of this issue r gulity of complaining about the others ... no big deal .. lets move on before u quote my entire post and tell me yet again that im wrong ... peace  |
Myriads | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:24 pm     Part of my problem with the 'good' vs 'bad' concept is that I think that it simplifies the houseguests in ways that simply don't work. All of the arguments are based on opinions that we have formed about the HG's while watching them on the feeds or TV. While we got to see a lot of information, I don't believe that we come close to getting fully formed pictures of who these people are. We are seeing bits, but not anything close to the 'real' people. Given they are in an unnatural situation, and we are only provided pieces of their talks and behaviors (while the feeds show more, they do not show all) we can never be sure of their motivations and thoughts. At best we are getting 2 dimensional versions of the rolls that the HG's are seeming to be in. At best we are able to create impressions of who the HG's are IN THE CONTEXT OF THE GAME, and only in that context. Let's take our winner, Lisa, as an example of this. I choose her as she is our 'good' example, far easier to dissect then the 'evil' side. Lisa, in her promos before the show started, talked herself up as being 'evil' and it was only a matter of time before it 'came out'. She clearly had an idea of who she'd be in the house. A roll she expected to play. Why did she choose and think this? I have no idea. Good question for an interviewer to ask her. After Eric left she anointed herself 'Queen of Darkness' in the DR. I saw little darkness after this, at worse, a brief touch of cloudyness, and then a lot more focus. Again. The words and actions don't match. Evil to LIsa seems to be a different thing then it might be to you or I. Thus, Lisa simply doesn't come across as 'evil'. Even when she seemed to be trying. :-) So, I feel safe saying Lisa was not evil in the game. At worst she was emotional on occasion, and acted on her heart's feelings, producing actions that were thoughtless. Just like most people in the world do from time to time. Does this lack of 'evil make Lisa 'Good'? Tough one. So What was Lisa? Who is Lisa on a personal level? I'm not sure. I don't KNOW her. I CAN'T know her from the polorized oneway contact I've had via the cameras. And the opinions that I can form from what I saw are incomplete. I only know the fragment I saw on the feeds and TV. Call that 'Image Lisa'. Image Lisa seems like a friendly, positive, young woman who has some depth to her. I'd certainly like to get a chance to sit down and talk to her for a few hours and learn more about her and discover that hopefully the person under the image matches. But unless I could, I can't say much of anything about who she is, just what I think she is not, and even then, only in game context. All of these people are far more complex then simple black and white rolls. Seeing the real people under the Images that form over them is hard, and we don't have the tools. How it all turned out in the final votes was based on a lot more then what we had to work with. Between Monday night and the last morning of the last week, we saw Dani and Lisa both having serious breakdowns. Watching Lisa crying alone in the hallway was so very sad, she seemed so alone. Part of what was so disturbing about it was that there seemed to be no reason for it that we could see or know. Clearly she was deeply troubled by something. What was it, Eric's words during the questioning? Something more? We don't know. What it does tell us, is that the final questions were a lot more intense then we saw. The EHG's questioned, and then voted on the basis of more then the rolls the Images of Lisa and Dani assumed that we see/saw. It's why their questions hurt both of them in such personal ways. And why the votes move past simple good and bad stuff in my opinion. |
Rosa | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:07 pm     Myriads, What a great post. Thank you for bringing a moment of sanity to a not so sane situation. |
Wendo | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:38 pm     Cmore, perhaps I need to explain my position as simply as possible. When someone writes “deal with it”, they’re telling ME what to do and how I should feel. Saying one has sour grapes or should deal with the outcome is negating whatever opinion they have. That, it’s simply not valid and doesn’t merit discourse. However, when someone writes “the EHG were hypocrites” they’re commenting on the houseguests, the game and the outcome, but they’re not telling another poster how they should feel about it. Such a comment is not directed at you, but rather at the game and the game players. If you choose to feel it’s directed at you, that’s your choice. However, you’re inferring it when it’s clearly NOT stated at you, but, again, at the game and the houseguests. (And, the EHG are fair game for debate on the board, but posters are not.) Now, if I were to write, “The EHG are hypocrites and so are all of you for agreeing with the outcome”, then that is personal. With this type of comment, I'm telling you that you're wrong and your opinion holds no weight. I would argue, though, that if you read the various opinions on the board that disagree with the ending, none even come close to this kind of statement. It’s pretty simple as that. You disagree, no problem. ----- Cindy, yes, I have commented about non Dani fans, however, I don't discount their opinions nor do I make negative opinions about them personally. In fact, there have been many times where I've agreed with their observations and comments. I would argue that, overall, my posts in response to non Dani fans have been on point and haven't deviated from debate. Simply, I debate non Dani fans' opinions, I don't comment on said fans personally. The only times where I've made a comment that would be outside of this are when I've seen posts that discuss Dani outside of the game (ie: who she is in real life) and/or bring her family, husband, children and co-workers in to the discussion. Because, for me personally, I consider that out of bounds and not up for discussion. It crosses the line of appropriate decorum and isn't respectful. But, that's just my opinion. In closing, I disagree with you. I'm not saying you're wrong though, only that I disagree with your interpretation.
----- Kappy, if I'm ever caught in a bad situation...I'm givin' ya a call! LOL! |
Watching2 | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:52 pm     There's one thing we NEED to remember here. CBS had A LOT to do with what role they wanted these people to "be" in the house! Remember Roddy saying he wasn't being cast as the "good looking one" and Chiara was supposed to be "the girl next-door?" Oooooops! LOL Only those who know these people in real life can tell us the people they know which has nothing to do with BB! CBS wanted certain roles portrayed! They wanted "sexy" "maniuplative" "mean" "funny" - you name it! Many of them were not able to keep up their "roles" mainly because they're not all trained actors and slipped back to being themselves!!!! I remember reading the pre-show profiles of some of the HGs and saying....uggggh... how obnoxious, and then they were nowhere near what they were "supposed to be." And then of course, there were always those leading questions in the DR.... which we'll never truly know about since we didn't see them on LF or on the show. Didn't the HGs talk about them wanting the "couples" played up in BB2? This might be a reality show, but it is a TV SHOW above all else and without ratings, we're all going to be saying goodbye Big Brother forever without the ratings!!!! |
Oregonfire | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:56 pm     What concerns me is that when we all come back for BB4 next year, is this Dani/non-Dani split going to continue? I can't even remember who rooted for whom during last year's BB2. This year, the whole Dani-anti/pro Dani roster is burned on my retina, and I'll have to go through deprogramming to make it go away. I don't want every future argument or observation I make to be negated with, "Well, a Dani fan/a non Dani fan would say that," or vice versa. That's just childish, and I hope it doesn't happen. JMO. |
Rosa | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 04:27 pm     I would still like to know everyones' opinion as to why Dani wouldn't go to the front door with Lisa to let the house guests in. I found that extremely odd and somewhat telling on Dani's part. |
Prisonerno6 | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:12 pm     Just to be technical, I don't think anyone who expresses displeasure over Lisa winning the game is really displaying "sour grapes" behavior. "Sour grapes" means when someone else gets what you wanted, you decide it really wasn't any good in the first play, and they can have it because you deserve better. I do think that if Danielle (or her supporters) doesn't acknowledge that Lisa's win was due at least in part to her game playing shows poor sportmanship. Remember, Lisa chose to accept Danielle's alliance offer, she chose not to vote Eric back in, she made an alliance with Marcellas at the last minute which ensured his vote for her at the end, and she pulled out all stops on the HOH competition when it really counted, forcing Danielle to make an agreement that they both knew she wouldn't keep. To say her win was only because the EHG are whiners or hypocrites or "Roddy manipulated everyone's vote" assumes we all know why they voted the way they did, and it is an essumption that has nothing to do with how Lisa played the game. That is really unfair to what Lisa did in that house for 12 weeks, getting to the final two without alienating almost everyone else in the house. |
Myriads | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:36 pm     Regarding Dani's not going to the front door. As I said above, no way to know what was in any of these folks heads, but one can make some guesses based on the feeds and what we saw. This is only my opinion and based on my interpretations. I'm probably totaly wrong. Keep that in mind as you read. Packed by weight not volume, your milage may vary :-) Dani was seriously upset for the last three days in the house, starting with Jasons eviction, often to the point of breakdown. She began to cast herself as 'evil' in her own mind right after, and almost seemed to have a need to confess to Lisa all the things she did and why she did them. Many of you would call this stratagy, and perhaps it would be/was. But the depth that she did it with, and the repitition which she said over and over that she 'scummed out' and that everyone would hate her, but she did it for her family was pretty large. I feel that she had felt that she had crossed some personal internal line somehow with her behavior (in specific starting the 'deal' with Lisa in the pool) that made her see herself in a very very bad light, and that broke the internal dam of her mind that she kept things walled up behind in the games previous months. There is no question that she sees herself as a good person (and from all that I saw she is, shes a good wife, parent, and loyal to a fault) but the things she did in game play conflicted with that 'good' self-image she holds. Cognitive dissidence in action. Upsetness follows. That was the set up to the door event. The 'follow through punch' was the live questioning itself. Leading into the EHG questioning, Dani was clearly deeply worried about it, and seemed scared of how Roddy would speak to her in particular. Though she was anxious over much of it. As I said in my post above, what happened there was very different then what we saw. We know (from feeds that were often cut by FOTH) that more was said. Both Lisa and Dani moved into periods of great upsetness following that interaction. In the day that followed Dani seemed to vary between being upset in general, and then angry that she failed to 'hold onto the key'. While she comes across as a strong woman in presentation, which I think she is, I also think that she has a deep desire to be liked, accepted, and not isolated from the group (She connected with people via humor, the method used by many who feel apart to connect statistically). And her fears about the other houseguests treatment of her fed into that worry, and it bloomed. To look at her mental state on the last night, she was still casting herself as 'bad' right to the end. She dressed in evils traditional color: black (and we all know she had some great dresses from the compitition that were not black) and seemed to move to acceptence of the end that she saw coming, all she needed to do was survive a live TV appearence and she was free. All this speaks to the mindset she was operating in. I feel that she was honestly afraid of how the EHG's would act towards her when they came in. She was concerned that they would really hate her. And with being accepted/liked/understood so important to her, that is scary to the max. The camera shot of her peering around the corner as Lisa opened the door was not one of playful fun, but real worry, like that a small child would have had knowing dad is coming back from work, and they have been naughty. I think she was deeply worried they would be unkind to her. The relief in her face when Chira hugged near the door, and later when Gerry and Josh hugged/talked to her was manifest. Those contacts went a long way to calming her, and breaking what I think was the psychosis that comes from sitting in a house with too much info and too little to do (which Lisa suffered to until Eric was brought into the DR mike to calm her the night before, if once again, we can trust the feeds before FOTH). So she hid because she was worried she would be emotionaly blasted. It fits with the bits of her that I could decern over the months. But as I said. Just my opinion. Myriads "Our deeds know our fashion" |
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