Archive through September 06, 2002
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HG-DEBATE: My OPINION of Roddy:
Archive through September 06, 2002
2addicted | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:22 am     You have all made excellent points, but I think I agree most with Gramma. If a contestant is truly serious about playing this game, then it is crazy to jump into immediate alliances before one has the time to assess the character of potential allies. Roddy's first error was uniting forces without sufficient data. This led to his other mistakes. He honestly believed that he was being honorable by not rejecting Chiara once they were perceived as a couple, but a truly righteous person would have gently set things straight. And I thought it was fascinating last night after the live show when D, J, L, and M were talking to Amy. Had Roddy been truly self-sacrificing, and told Amy (and Chiara and Josh before her) "I know that you made a promise to me earlier, but I understand that you have to look out for yourself now" he would have proven his contention that he is an honorable player. By trying to hold her to a deal she made before he engineered her eviction, he revealed his true character. I don't think that Roddy is a bad guy. I do think that he felt mentally superior to the other people in the house and played upon their weaknesses. He also had no sense of humor when it came to himself. I would have more respect for Roddy if he could have laughed at the end, instead of making his exit serious and dramatic. |
Herkysmom | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:38 am     Well Gramma relieved me of the task of keying in my opinions - Right On Gramma and very well stated!! Reenie certainly gave a powerful description of the abusive toxic)personality. The fact that he was using his abilities, such as they are, to advance his cause in the game is what every one of them is doing. Even Amy. It's what they are supposed to be doing. I'm a counselour also and I became worried when Roddy seemed to be blaming all his past relationship failures on the other persons. I emphazise with your reaction and note you were not stating an opinion as fact. . That being said the most I can say with certainty about Roddy is that he is cute, smart and lacks situational awareness |
Earthmother | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:39 am     I don't see how using your charms to win over vulnerable, weak women can be construed any differently than using the loving mother approach on those same vulnerable, weak women. The fact that those vulnerable, weak women are in the house to begin with is not fair to the other players. Their personal issues with men and family shouldn't be criteria for strong players being crucified. |
Vanillarose | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:39 am     I think Reenie hit the nail on the head. He's a charming user who casts his victims aside. Luckily Danielle somehow caught on to him early on. His whole game plan was to find the weaker players and use them. I think he forgot that he would also have strong people in that house to contend with, or maybe he counted on making alliances with the stronger people, and assumed that they would never turn down the chance to make an alliance with his charming self. |
John316 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:49 am     I agree, excellent post Reenie! ( I was slow to post myself, glad you decided to join in!) I also agree with many of the posts here analyzing R. and the weakness of his strategy. I mostly feel that strategy (often criticized as "lying") isn't his problem - Danielle and Jason have been able to be effective and have genuine bonds with people despite strategic "lying" in the game. R. crossed the line by messing with people's heads/emotions. I am disappointed with all of the criticism I see of Danielle, but everyone should give her credit as being one of the only two (edit -oops forgot to say Jason is the other!)who R. couldn't deceive - not that he didn't try or that they didn't weaken, but I believe the strength of their faith was the only effective weapon against R and his toxic personality/strategy. Also, IMO, Lisa and Marcellas have only gotten it because of D & J's counsel. As a Christian now I find that I am not often manipulated as I was before I had faith in the Lord - sad to say I used to be the type that Reenie refered to that don't think this type of seductive/dishonest person is out there -I was an easy target kind of like Amy before, but thank God I've been delivered! Now as Danielle said last night "God takes care of my enemies for me" even when I can't in my own strength/wisdom. Not trying to preach, just relaying my own personal experience in finally getting over being easily manipulated - I tried EVERYTHING to "find myself" /be stronger, but Jesus was the only thing that worked for me - I was so glad to find out He was real and life-changing, not just words in a book. I hope R is not like that in real life, but sadly I don't think he's that good an actor so it's not likely. Unless maybe he was just copying this personality type he learned from a Psych text book... not likely either. Just had another thought, could it be that part of Marcellas' anger/frustration with Amy is a projection of his anger with himself for being "swept off his feet/strategy" and letting himself get played by R. I can't rememeber when he saw the light, but seeing Amy go down the same path must have been a painful reminder... Last thought, I was really glad to see the HG start to compare notes about R. and I think when they finally see the tapes they'll feel even better for surviving his manipulations in the end. Couldn't understand the posts (on other topics) about that saying they're bashing R., seemed more like recovering to me! |
Puzzled | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:52 am     What I found so fascinating about Roddy is that, with all his charm and ability to manipulate, he totally misread how he was perceived by the other hgs. He heard what he wanted to hear, and may have totally believed that people made deals with him--because that was his intention. Reenie's observations are right on. The whole Amy-Roddy thing seems to be a classic of the emotional abuser and the victim. Why on earth did she go out to win the POV, when she knew, absolutely knew, the situation she would be in? So she won, backed out of the earlier agreement, giving Roddy yet another chance to berate her. She gloms on to Marcellas, and no matter how he backstabs and insults her, she goes back, makes "nice-nice," setting herself up for more of the same. Yet Roddy thought that she would go through with taking him off the block, even though Dani and the rest knew that it was impossible to know what she would do at any given moment. If you can't read people, you just can't go the distance in a set-up like BB. |
Dee723 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:00 am     John316, I agree with some of your post. You quoted Danielle as saying "God takes care of my enemies for me" and while I agree that God does indeed take care of our enemies, the thing that I absolutely do not agree with is why is ok for Danielle to be doing just as much manipulating if not more than Roddy did? IMHO she's worse than he is because she pretends to be someone who is trustworthy then turns around and sticks a knife in when it suits her. She messes with emotions just as much as he did. Look at how she was taunting Amy with alcohol the other night and would not take no for an answer. Is that not manipulation on the worst scale? How in the world is that Christian behavior? I'm sorry your logic just does not sit well with me. Also you talk about D & Jason seeing past Roddy and not being affected by Roddy's so-called toxic personality. How then do you explain the fact that Roddy had him blubbering like an idiot after one session in the HOH room and completely changed his mind as to who he was going to nominate that week? Even when he was giving his vote he was like someone who was brain washed. "Roddy is my friend". Oh yeah, he resisted Roddy and didn't sucumb to manipulation. Please. |
Twiggyish | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:01 am     Puzzled, it's possible Amy just didn't think about throwing the POV. It was a contest and she wanted to win. |
Dee723 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:02 am     Reenie, I agree with your post. I'm also a mental health professional and you worded that very well. :-) |
Gramma | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:08 am     blushing with thanks to 2addicted and herkysmom for the validation. "He also had no sense of humor when it came to himself." ITA. My favorite tag line is "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly." but then, his not being an angel has been Dani's whole point! LOL "lacks situational awareness " I like it!! That's a phrase I've never heard before and says so much. You can bet I'll now find myself using that line myself. Thanks for that Herkysmom. Earthmother - I see your point, but in this game the goal is to end up not being voted out. Trying not to allienate yourself is smart. Setting yourself up to be perceived as superior is not smart. Dani is a mom, and acting like one is probably 2nd nature to her, and what she knows she does best. I wouldn't call Lisa a weak woman. Amy.. yes. Amy probably brings out the parent in all of us. "Their personal issues with men and family shouldn't be criteria for strong players being crucified. " Interesting take on why Roddy was booted. I think it may be simpler though. The original 6 were outed and it was made clear that anyone not a part of it would be evicted first. Nothing wrong in that, that's the game, but you can't expect those that weren't a part of it to want them to win the game. They should ALL want to win the game. In dani's words, Roddy's eviction was business. That's game focus. |
Princesspeach | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:08 am     The night before POV when Amy "saw the light" with Roddy, she talked to Dani and Lisa about winning the POV just so she could NOT use it against Roddy just to see his reaction. At that point she thought she was stronger than him. After she won POV he pulled the "you made a deal" stuff and she became a sappling again. |
John316 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:12 am     Puzzled, great point about R. not being able to read people. Relates to the other counselor posting I think who said R. didn't have "situational awareness". Vanillarose. Glad to see you point out too that Danielle caught on to R. early, I think the "somehow" she was able to was her faith in God as you see in my post. I can't remember if Jason caught on around the same time as D or after... but I know they both got him early! Thankfully D&J began sharing their knowledge with L,M & A or he'd probably still be there at least 1 more week because even though he couldn't read people - he still got over. I think Lisa will continue to be really hurt because she considered R. a friend, didn't talk game much. Funny how the cute & smart ties in, Gerry couldn't read people/situations either and couldn't last, although he was considered smart, he wasn't cute. Easier to tolerate unaware people longer if they're cute I guess. |
Crossfire | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:18 am     I don't think we need to bust out any psycho babble to figure out what happened here. It can be stated without calling Roddy, or his competitors any names, or making any judgment calls on character. Roddy got beat by the numbers plain and simple. He never had a true alliance. Even when there was a pseudo alliance, they never voted as a block. He was simply not on 'the team', his eviction, as well as anyone else not on the team was just a matter of time, and it will continue to be so for those still remaining. This is one area where I Danielle and Jason deserve some credit. Before they went after the perceived figurehead of the technically non-existent alliance, they striped away all of his would be protectors and the weaker free agents who might come to his defense. I think a lot of people over estimated the man, and built him up into a great threat than he ever presented with his short term shifting agreements. Not that he was not a threat at all, Danielle and Jason were right to work on his eviction, a lot of people in the house liked him and still do. As much as it is popular to ride him as the great manipulator, his popularity among the houseguests is quite high. If he could have made it to the end, he could have won. Danielle, unfortunately, has the opposite problem, she is almost guaranteed to get to the end, but I don't think she presents much of a threat once she gets there unless she can somehow get people to put aside emotions when the time comes. |
Kalekona | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:25 am     Just how is Dani manipulating anyone? Seems to me she has discussions in which they all have an equal input- she is the stronger personality but I don't think that means she is necessarily the leader. Roddy prayed on EVERYONES weakness not just the "weak" women. He knew just how to get to josh in fact the only one I don't think he worked at all was Eric. As for Jason- he knew full well just what Roddy was doing, in other words his eyes were opened he just didn't have the fortitude to back it up, he felt he owed Roddy something and when he didn't nominate him that obligation was paid and Jason's integrity remained intact- not to mention it allowed Roddy to believe Jason was in his back pocket. I do have a question- Does Roddy have such little respect for Lisa that he would honestly believe she would still be on his side after he campaigned to have her evicted? Roddy is very book smart and good on picking up someones weaknesses but he has no social smarts- he thinks everyone will adhere to his logic, funny thing is Roddy's logic almost never made sense. <was it really logical for Amy to keep a deal that by all rights was null and viod the minute he nominated her!> |
Marameko | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:00 am     Kalekona, Mr High and Mighty Roddy obviously was hoping that Lisa either forgave him for "assisting with " her eviction or that she forgot.He obviously thinks that he is so superior as to charm what he needs/wants out ot others. Good riddance. |
Krossd | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:11 am     I am relieved to see Narcissistic personality type brought out and discussed in the open, finally. My very early thread using this word was moderated even tho it was calm, non-bashing, and only compared his behaviour to such personality types. I've been skirting around the word ever since trying to convey my opinion of what I was observing (making 2 lines into 2 paragraphs) . The stoppers were often those that called our observations 'armchair doctors/psychologist', and therefore of no consequence (disregarding any experience or training we may have had, if stated) but here we DO have an actual psychologist - arm-chair and all , looking at the hamster(s) 24/7! Thanks for stepping up to the plate Reeniehere! And it is not inappropriate mark for a physician to say those are the signs of XXX if he were to see symptoms - 25 years of experience observing only shown behavior on a limited bases, would definitely give credence to the observations 24/7 of all behavior- even if from the armchair! (Don't you have armchairs in real practice too Reeniehere? ) Trying to explain to others who can only see the fun, intelligent, charming, self professed good and righteousness of this personality type is one of THE hardest, and most difficult things to do. It was chalked up to confidence, arrogance, it's a game, na, you are going overboard, etc., The person with this personality, as Reeniehere pointed out, will not do battle with one who can not be manipulated, but they will push long and hard before they stop trying to get a person to do what they want. How far, how hard and what tactics or tools they will use is dependant on the how badly he or she wants what they are trying to achieve., and what they can get away with. The BB house had some major hindrances and still it was obviously apparent, to some of us. I only have to guess how much further things (tactics) would go if it weren't for the 24/7 cameras if a person with this type of personality affliction went this far with them! Roddy is lucky, because he does have it together more than your average, or not so average guy that has the narcissistic personality traits, and he doesn't seem to get angry easily, or held/holds it in check. Likely he just shrugs and walks away. He has so much going for him he just moves on. Heaven help those in his path when this type does not wish to move on however. Sure these fun loving, intelligent charmers are fun to be around! They are a blast! Privately, over months and years you wouldn't agree. More often than not you don't consider the problem to be the smart, articulate, charming, good looking, wonderful, successful person to be the one with the problem, and they do turn it on you - make it YOU that has the problem (as we've seen Roddy do with everyone, especially Chiara). That is why the ones they interact with are the one's in therapy when the day is done. It's down right scary if you've lived it in real life. (Guess you'd have to imagine having it happen over FAR more time than in there, and add more serious harm, because there aren't cameras capturing it all, and it is NOT a GAME!) It is so confusing you literally lose your 'self' in the effort to give to them. The ability we bewilderingly witnessed, repeatedly, to get another to 'fall on the sword', is a real tell-tail sign of this narcissistic pattern too. A decent person who has become involved in such a relationship, and one who has empathy for others, wants and has been made (manipulated into wanting) to show them (and be the ONE) that is true. They feel so compelled to prove them wrong, they are different than all the rest. This is a tactic they know and use well. How often have we seen posts here, on how can he say the kinds of things he did, i.e., the put-downs, little slights, why does she go back for more? (I remember the first time I heard him do it to Chiara, in the hammock during a very intimate moment of eyegazing: He said to her at that moment, "You have more eye snots than anyone I know." !!! Right out of the blue in what was a romantic type set up! Lift her up, put her down, make her prove self by not crying about it... You got the picture! Some times, most times, the person will come right to them, attracted like magnets. Willing to take the slights to be with such a great person, how lucky they are since they don't deserve such a terrific person. They never imagined someone 'like them' would like them, they feel special, lucky.... etc. Sound familiar? We ponder why do they get attracted, or keep going back? Well, they all have their own reasons, needs, and issues to work out. It's symbiotic, and you see what happens. You also got to see the opposite, when someone isn't taken in, or wakes up from it, as with Lisa in the end half - and even then she had to keep it steadfast in her mind. She certainly held her own, and is confounding her logic did not work on her. And Lisa is dumb? lol - NOT! Anyway, you (may) have been witness to how it works, so take note and remember it, it could help you spot this behaviour and save you a LOT of grief if you ever become too deeply or personally involved. That isn't to say one can't enjoy the company of such a charming and interesting people, sure we can - just don't get too close, listen to your 'gut'- not their logic. As much as some don't want to admit it - (semantics) Dani was close in her 'he's the devil, he's evil'. If she hadn't used those terms as soon as she had in the game, I know some of us would have been using them, and screaming at the monitors for them to see it too! Then when she said them, too, we'd have cheered that she has seen the light! And she is stuck in there don't forget, her - "he's the devil, he's evil" play to the cameras and others is also a vent. Let her have it. He's gone, and the 'evil' (read: insidious persistent manipulation, with little understanding or regard of another) is gone with him. Now we just have 'bad', inappropriate, maybe even understandable, dare I say normal human behaviour as they go for the money! Glad the story line is finally going to change! Reeniehere, Did you see the conv. with R and L, right before Live Show? If so, I'd be interested in how do you think Lisa did the night of the eviction? |
John316 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:28 am     Dee723, thanks for your post - I respect your arguments/disagreement to my post but can't agree. I'll try to respond without saying too much about Dani here, I post a lot about her in topics related to her, just brought her up here as it related to her figuring R. out and where R. strategy failed against her (&Jason), IMO. Glad to see you agree about God taking care of our enemies though, isn't He great! So I'll try to briefly answer your points about Dani vs R. - first I never defended all of her actions as being the best Christian actions. Christians are human - real, very imperfect, and constantly growing in their faith, maturity and understanding of their witness. So, no, like all Christians, not everything she has done has been the best witness, BUT in regards to the game I have posted many times in other areas that to "lie" in this GAME is strategy, not dishonesty (should a Christian playing cards have to reveal their hand as they play or inform opponents of their upcoming moves in order to he honest? No. it's a GAME) So I think Dani (& Jason) have had great strategy and played the game - call it lying or manipulation if you like - but it's part of the game. I was saying in my post that R. messed up when he crossed the line and got PERSONAL and manipulated - remember his comment to A about being disappointed, not just about the game but about HER PERSONALLY. just one of MANY examples - he said it's only a game to justify himself, but then turned it around on others as personal to work them. Dani often says in encouraging others feeling emotional, you're human and you can't help having emotion in this game, but helps them get back to the game and feel better about themselves. All persuasion/sales/debate/games involve emotion, because they involve humans, nothing wrong with that. BUT R. went beyond that and created false PERSONAL relationships based on people's real emotions and then used the same emotions/relationships to manipulate and tear people down...(others have been much more effective at detailing his many exploits, so I'll stop there!) I haven't seen Dani do anything like that. So IMHO, you can't even compare the two on this! i don't know exactly what you're refering to with D taunting A about the alcohol...If you're referring to the white dress night and D making fun of her... I would put that under the not the best behavior for a Christian category - and I posted on it that night saying I understand the human need to vent, relieve stress when you care and are frustrated by someone especially in that relentless environment... but unfortunately, as Christians we don't have the luxury of missing it as others do, we are called to represent Christ and are held to higher standards. People look to us to see if we're for real, if Christianity/Jesus is for real -even purposely test us. And of course it goes without saying we'll fail at times, and can only trust God to help us deal with those times and be open to His leadings and to ask forgiveness. We can't expect D to be more perfect than anyone else, but of course, she could have handled it better as can be said of all in the house (& world) at times! All that being said,IMHO, it's still not comparable to R and his failed strategy I was posting on though.) About your points on Jason noms, etc: I must admit I was worried that R. had gotten to him, and maybe he did a little - being a Christian doesn't make you immediately mature, knowledge and discernment only comes with experience - BUT through later shows/live feed posts - I understood that bb just edited for drama (who will he put up? will R. get to him? etc.) which made Jason seem a weak and indecisive HOH. Based on his success and always having a strategy I think it's safe to say this wasn't really accurate. He clearly and effectively explained that his decision was not based on suddenly trusting R., but on his strategic decision that it was more beneficial to honor his word to R. and get rid of another wild card, Gerry, knowing they could/SHOULD get rid of R. later. He never waivered from knowing R. had to go or that he had to protect himself and D. from him - how is that being played or brainwashed? He did what was best for him in the situation. Who is in the house, likely to be at the end, and who just got evicted? So, just because Jason likes R. as a friend and had emotions over the situation, doesn't mean he didn't see his manipulations or was weak. I clearly said in my post that both D&J have admitted that at times R. was so "gooood" in working them it almost worked, despite their knowing the truth. My point was that they got it early and have been able to stand (STAY) against his efforts! Dee, I appreciate the opportunity to debate this with you, sorry so long, only hope I answered your points and did justice to D & J... God bless! |
Becca | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:46 am     Jay made a gamble. He realized that Gerry definetly wanted him gone. Rod was a wild card, as far as he was concerned. He wasn't so sure Rod would go after him, first. He knew Dani and Marc were more likely He gambled on getting Gerry out (while looking like not a strong player to others. HE doesn't want people to see him as a good player). He kept his word to Rod and Chiara (looknig like a good guy) Even Gerry isn't upset with him and his rooting for him. Plus, he knows has Roddy out of the game, Jay is in a great position, his gamble worked. |
John316 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:57 am     Amen! Krossd (and Reenie as I said above) what an excellent summary of this personality - it's a blessing to have so many articulate and expert opinions here! I appreciate your warnings to help people understand this personality and deal with it, from experience, I know it's very easy to get taken in and brought down by. ( I only hope Amy can get over it by filing it away as an experience in the game... maybe you guys could send her (and the others hurt) some advice!) Also, I'm so glad to see someone understand Dani's use of the devil and evil and so effectively explain it. As you pointed out in describing Lisa being able to not be swayed by him - it is so important to keep it "steadfast" in your mind to overcome these manipulations (ex. of results of not keeping steadfast is Amy's rollercoaster of revelation and backsliding about R. this week!)- And those words/comparison were just D's way to cope and keep the truth steadfast in their minds. As Christians, God directs us to ALWAYS remember the devil is a liar, our enemy, who comes to confuse and accuse - if we lose sight of this (or God & the truth )even for a moment we fall victim to his deceptions... Many were offended/confused by her use of the words because they don't understand his personality/strategy (and the need to be steadfast against it) or her faith and therefore the context she used it in - (she wasn't doing it to bash him in other words as in the case of M. against Gerry). I pray that this lack of understanding won't cost D the game/votes, but i feel better just knowing there are people who understand! "He's gone, and the 'evil' (read: insidious persistent manipulation, with little understanding or regard of another) is gone with him. Now we just have 'bad', inappropriate, maybe even understandable, dare I say normal human behaviour as they go for the money! Glad the story line is finally going to change!" Couldn't agree more Krossd! Keep posting! |
Dee723 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:08 am     John while I appreciate everything you write my point is this. Danielle was not able to resist Roddy because she got any special discernment from God. She was able to resist him because it takes one to know one, pure and simple. He knew she was a strong advesary and vice versa. There's no special religious/spiritual gifts going on here with her. As far as her only behaving human, Jesus said people will know you by your fruits,. Her fruits are rotten and stink. The incident with Danielle trying to get Amy to drink alcohol took place the day AFTER the white dress incident. Read the live feeds to get a non-biased opinion. Do I think Roddy was a manipulater? Yes indeed, do I think he's the worst one who was in that house and the devil? No I do not. |
John316 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:11 am     kalekona, marameko, becca, puzzld, our mental health professionals and all the others here and on other topics that do such a great job making points on this and for R+D/J/L that make sense: I need to "hire" you to reply for me! You are so excellent at being short and sweet, and right on! I feel bad for having to be so wordy sometimes! I think I'll just sit back and enjoy your responses... maybe just throw in a Christian comment here and there for D & J... Great job, God Bless! Pleasure to be here today |
Spunky | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:16 am     Oh, I don't have my take on this thread... well, it's over and done with but the only thing I really didn't like about Roddy is his arrogant way to expect the others keep their word when he didn't try to do the same for them. Not good enough for me. So long Roddy!! |
Kalekona | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:23 am     Do I think Roddy was a manipulater? Yes indeed, do I think he's the worst one who was in that house and the devil? No I do not. I have to disagree with you here. Danielle may not be a poster child for great friends but unlike Roddy she has true compassion and empathy for the others- even Gerry and Josh who she didn't like. She has never looked someone in the eye and called them a liar or told them just how worthless they are <he did that to Amy not once but twice> Roddy lacks the ability to care about how others feel. And I have to say is thoughts on God are telling as to his ability for compassion. Most Atheists think it is about them, that their wants and needs are primary. |
Dee723 | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:32 am     I didn't say she was the worst, I said Roddy was not the worst and is not the devil. That term got thrown around entirely too much this year. Anyway, she didn't ever say ANYTHING negative to anyone's face she always said it behind their back. For that I have no respect. As far as empathy and compassion, yes she does seem to have that-I'll give you that point. |
Crossfire | Friday, September 06, 2002 - 11:33 am     Outrageous! |
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