Archive through September 16, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archives: Game. Not a Game... Game? Not a Game. (ARCHIVE): Archive through September 16, 2002

Oregonfire

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
That explains a lot--I lived in NYC for the year and was a die hard Mets fan. I was so glad to see the Yankees brought down by the Diamondbacks last year. I don't like to see the same folks win year after year--what is the point of competition if only one team wins all the time?

Do not mistake what this thread is about? What, does someone own it? I'm climbing over the fence and staying for a while. I saw post after post agreeing with your point of view, and, I really just didn't get it, so felt compelled to say something.

But I do have another question for you, Tabor, which you may also decide is outside of this thread's parameters: Do you believe that there is a clean, moral way to get a promotion if more than one person wants it, or a clean, ethical way to win a game like BB in which only one person can be the winner? When does having a commendable moral code tip over into martyrdom? Why enter a game such as this if you don't intend to play to win?

I would just like some clarification of your position.

Eden

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with Wcv and Wendo. This GAME is not at all a realistic situation and therefore the people PLAYING it shouldn't be judged as to their character or moral fiber or the way they might or might not conduct themselves in everyday life.

As to the players "being themselves" or "adopting new personalities" inside the house. Look at the thread on the board What I Wouldn't Do were I on BB(not sure of the exact title). Just about every entry intended in jest or seriousness addresses being something they are NOT in order to succeed. Does that make all those posters ammoral for even entertaining the thought?

What posted something earlier saying that merely by applying for the show the HGs have shown they are willing to do anything for money. I think that is a highly simplistic synthesis of the situation.

Lastly, if so many of you find the way the HGs behave and play this game so repugnant(and I think in BB2 and BB3 the HGs have behaved somewhat similarly), why do you watch? Why do you consider yourself a fan? What are you REALLY a fan of if you don't see this as a game or enjoy the strategy and subterfuge necessary to win it? Where is the entertainment for you? Because it seems to me that the very nature of this game encourages and often rewards this "errant" behavior of the Hgs that you all rail about so vehemently. I am seriously curious!

If you don't see this as a game and you subscribe to the live feeds, you are more purely a voyeur: a prying observer who is usually seeking the sordid or the scandalous....not just a viewer:one who watches television. (merriam webster dictionary)

Groucho

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor asked, "What do you do when you win when you cheat?"

Usually I shuffle the cards and deal them again. Sometimes I don't.

Tobor asked, "How does it make you feel?"

It doesn't really evoke a whole lot of emotion.

Tobor asked, "How about when you cheat and still don't win?"

Then I haven't cheated very well, have I?

Tobor said, "Never said it [cheating at solitaire] made you a bad person." But previously, you said, "I would love to see a shot of one of the HG's sitting at the table and cheating at solitare. I guess that would say it all. (And in their head--- well, it is only a card game... it is only a TV show... it is only my workplace... etc.)"

It seemed pretty clear to me that you were saying that cheating at solitaire is morally equivalent to lying and deceiving in order to get a promotion. If I've misunderstood, please feel free to clarify.

Bigd

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am wondering if the only way to answer some of these questions is to put these same people back in this house and let them go at it again. Would they do it differently?

I hardly think these are normal circumstances. The whole premise of the show is not normal. People cannot be expected to behave as they normally would outside of their own personal "comfort level". I have behaved differently under the same set of circumstances in my own life. I have surprised myself how I behaved. I have taken a simple task and done it different ways - I have had it turn out the same and I have had it end differently.

Do I think these houseguests have done things they shouldn't have done - sure - but who am I to judge. The point is they ARE playing a game, they ARE out of their element, they ARE being watched 24/7, and I am convinced that since their world has become SO small, they will behave in ways that are foreign even to themselves, and they probably won't even know they are doing it.

I think it is a game. I think it is a game with limited rules, and that's the way it pretty much plays out. It's not "may the best man win". It's last man standing, as evidenced in the prior episodes.

I play tennis. There are times when I am completely satisfied with my behaviour on the court. There are other times when I am certain I should never go on the court again because of my behaviour. Luckily, the people I play with remember it is a game.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:47 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregonfire--
------ off the track -----------
I am a loyal Yankee fan. You are a Mets fan. With that we should probably just stop this right now. That really does say it all.
The key word is "loyal". I root for my team. What else should I do. Flip flop back and forth? I had season tickets for 10 years before they won in '96. I stuck it out in all the bad years. It is just too bad Mattingly never got a World Series ring. Guidry was my favorite pitcher.
The series isn't fixed. It is a competition. Each and every year.
---------- back on track ----------

Yes. There are many clean, moral ways to get a promotion if more than one person can get it.
Do hard work. Do good work. Put in more hours. Treat your people right. C'mon, you know what they are. Do I really have to spell it all out?

SOME people sleep with the boss to get the promotion. You think that is right? Some people lie to get the promotion. Bad mouth others to get the promotion. Take credit for other people's work. There are MANY wrong ways to get a promotion. You know that too. Do I really have to spell them all out to you?
Do you believe that there IS NOT a good, clean, moral way to get a promotion? Only bad ways? Or do you think that if the other person sleeps with the boss you have to do the same to even it up?

As far as BB is concerned... I don't know how to tell someone the way to win it. But that is not what I am talking about.

You are focusing on what you THINK I am saying. Not what I am saying.

I say you backstab in the house, you backstab in the other parts of your life as well.
(You use your kids as a BS excuse and lie to cops to get out of a speeding ticket.)
Martyrdom has nothing to do with anything I am saying.
When they say it is a game-- I do not believe that they believe it. They are using it as an excuse. Read post #1 again. I do not want to re-state it again and again. Follow the logic from "game" to "business" to "family" excuses for actions.
And I believe that as they are in the house is how they are outside the house. Just that simple.

There is no way Roddy invented his personality for BB. No way any of them did.

Your last question shows you do not understand my point. So you are fighting something else.

I do not think I can be any more clear. The other people that agreed added additional clarification of you need it. Obviously they were able to see what I was talking about.

So simmer down now. I'm glad you like Scrubs. It is one of my favorite comedy shows. I think I even watched all the re-runs! (We do have something in common.)

Bigd

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh I hate to do this, but I have to ask you what kind of world YOU live in Tobor7....

you said: "Yes. There are many clean, moral ways to get a promotion if more than one person can get it. Do hard work. Do good work. Put in more hours. Treat your people right. C'mon, you know what they are. Do I really have to spell it all out?"

Hello?????? In the "real" world you can do ALL the things you listed and NOT receive the promotion.

IMHO, you exhibit the behaviors you mentioned for YOURSELF, not the promotion.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wendo--
I'm not talking about any specific player here. My comments are for them all.

As far as my answer being "a child's answer"?
Now I suppose that is a slight personal attack isn't it?
(I have so many answers for this one, I'll just have to get back to you.)

The Roddy stuff-- I can't take responsibility for someone else's posts. So don't put it off on me.

I never defined each of the HG's character. I said character was exposed and it was a true representation. That they could not HIDE it... again, I'm not going to re-state everything again here. If you didn't understand my post and the others in support of it, then I do not think there is anything I can add to help you.

If you think you are right about the HG's exposed character then you have as much to go on as I do. Your observation is as valid as mine. I guess time will tell. Or we may never know. Let's just pay attention to all the excuses flying around and we'll see what happens.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Eden---
Good question.
I think I sort of answered it earlier.
The TV show is entertaining.
The feeds are interesting.
I enjoy the process of testing my ability to access each person and predict what they will do, not based on what I would do, but based on what I think they will do. I find it a good study of human nature. Of course, many times I am shocked and surprised by what some people do, and other times it is so obvious.
I never saw the Marci GPOV scene coming. Totally speechless. But there are many things to learn from that.
When you listen to a 4-hour conversation between 2 people you start to know when a response is expected and shicked when one isn't given.
The entire thing is a learning process, as are these discussions.
Where else would you get such a view to evaluate human behavior?
Only show in town, right?

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Groucho,
Thanks for taking the time to write the answers.

I for one do not cheat at games. I got some game cheats once (maybe for doom or something) and used them. After that I could not play the game anymore. It took the fun out of it. It was even hard to play knowing the cheat code was there to use if I wanted to.

One quick story--- I got pulled over for speeding once when I was young. Cop asked why was I going so fast? I told him I had no excuse, it was reckless of me and to write me the ticket. Maybe it would be a good lesson and might save my life someday. I'll never forget it, but he didn't write the ticket. He wrote me up for some other minor thing because he had already pulled me over, but told me he had never heard that from a single person before. Everyone has some sort of excuse they try to feed, but I just took it. That was a start to the awareness of "excuses" for me.

So......... I'm saying the excuses start small then move up the ladder to bigger things. Sooner or later you can come up with some sort of excuse for anything you want to do. Not morally equal. Not saying that.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
During the US Open this year, John Mac said something like this:
When you are playing like this you start to look for excuses. Blame a bad call. A fan yelling. Any excuse you can find. And then you think about it, believe it... and convince yourself you have an excuse to lose. And then you lose.

Since we hit tennis a few times I thought this would be ok to post. I found his insight interesting.
For what it is worth.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 02:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Bigd--
Good clarification. I guess I'm talking about the guy that retires and the spot opens up and a lot of people want it. All of sudden there is a RUSH of effort.
Yes, it can happen... you might not get it even though you did the best you could.
It is what you do AFTER you don't get it... that's part of your character. Do you quit? Do you seek revenge? Do you try harder? Do you lie to yourself and say you really didn't want it? Do you doubt yourself and think you are not good enough? Do you start playing dirty?
So many questions...

Gambit

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi all,

I'm finding this topic particulary interesting and I thought I'd add a few articles I've come across:

Salt Lake Tribune

The Art of Lying - Can It Be a Good Thing?

Of particular interest is the notion of personal ethics vs. "gaming ethics".

Annitar

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay maybe it's too late/early for me to be reading this thread but... this thread is blowing my mind! LOL!

Are we trying to look at HGs on a reality show to define OUR moral parameters? Are we trying to look at the way those people have lived/played in that reality show to define THEIR moral parameters?

I appreciate the passion with which people are posting on this thread and can see the points that both sides are trying to make however... what goes on inside a FAKE house, on a STAGED reality show, with HG's chosen for ther PERSONAS and not their PERSONALITIES cannot be translated into a discussion about the lives we lead etc.

For any of us to think that we have any idea what these folks are like outside that "house" is almost absurd. These people were "cast" to play a certain part. They were not chosen originally by ASP to be theirselves. How many times did we hear Chiara say she was "supposed to be the girl next door".

For us to sit here and think we truly KNOW these people by the way they have lived their lives in that "house" is just absurd to me.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well. I'm done for tonight.

I've explained and stated my thoughts as many ways that I can right now. Others have added valuable insights and helped make them clearer.

I've answered as many people as I can. I didn't throw it out there and hide.

Clearly the sides are drawn on this issue and people are not willing to cross over.
As expected I suppose.

This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks

Bbnan

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Let's get down to the nitty-gritty here Tabor. You say you don't mention anyone by name, but when I read your post I, and most everyone know you are talking about Danielle.

When I posted yesterday I almost said..here we go again, another Danielle bashing thread.

I have made my judgments based on the live feeds. I only believe 50% of what I read on this board, and 75% of what I read on the live feed transcription. There is a lot of stuff written here that is exaggerated or just not true.

I do believe that you see a lot about the character of the people in the house, not everything mind you, as it is so artificial.
In my everyday life, I can't worry about every personal slight, or bad habit of my husband or child. I have too much too do to focus on that. There are bills to pay, a business to run, and news to watch ( and get pissed about) and time to be taken away to another world when I watch the Sopranos. The BB3 house is so very unreal!

Also I really don't think that anyone has done much that is so outrageous. The only really creepy thing was the Roddy/Amy business, and the pedophile comment ( and I think Lisa just doesn't understand what a pedophile is )And actually since I didn't hear it myself live, I don't even know if it is true.
I don't mind the bashing that much really. It gets so out of proportion when written on this board. I mean, if I had met someone like Tonya, you can bet I would have trash talked her behind her back.

So what if Danielle is a bible-thumper? I meet people like that all the time. As a non-believer myself, her comments don't bother me. That's just the way they think. It's apparent to me that Danielle doesn't think Roddy is the devil. Most of the time she was laughing while saying it.

I really enjoyed the long talk Danielle and Lisa had last night. It was really interesting to hear what they thought and to hear them re-hash the game. They were being pretty honest....Lisa didn't let on her last minute deal with Marcellus, and Dani didn't let on about how close she is with Jason. All in all it was really interesting.

All four of the people left are nice people. As Lisa said this evening, "The people left are the ones that were under-estimated". And as long as I'm on a rant here, all of the BB3 cast were much more "sane" than that bunch they had last year.

Oregonfire

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
All right, Tabor, let's look at some of your assumptions, point by point, that I took issue with:

“Calling it a game is just an excuse. How can it be just a game if you are willing to throw away your honor and character with the excuse of doing it for your family?”

Perhaps some put doing right by their family as the highest example of honor and character, instead of trying to buddy up and make nice to a bunch of relative strangers for two months. It seems to me that people may have different ideas of what is honorable and shows character, don’t you think? It is also clear to me, since we know just which HG you are speaking of that has a family and has said those specific quotes, that your own bias have come into play here, and that an absolute standard of duty and honor is not really so self-evident as you’d like us to think.

“And if it is for your family, then it is NOT a game, NOT business, BUT personal.”

And why can’t it be both a game and personal? Why are those two concepts mutually exclusive? Seems to me that you are creating arbitrary divisions here.

“As long as the end justifies the means, that's all the excuse they need. Just because your family needs toilet paper and pencils is no excuse to steal them from the office.”

I disagree. Stealing toilet paper in dire need is not the same as stealing your employees life savings at Enron. That’s why these two crimes carry different sentences, and many are kept busy interpreting the law. It’s not all the same to me. This is where we differ in opinion quite a bit. You seem to be a moral absolutist, while I’m a moral relativist.

“At some time you have to take responsibility for yourself. Stop making excuses for these people, they are making enough of their own.”

While I do think the HGs brought certain tendencies into the game, they are exaggerated by the accelerated and intense nature of the game. Many posters disagree on this point, so never the twain shall meet.

Finally, I was originally replying to points made by other posters in my previous posts, not just yours, so please get over yourself. You decided to jump in and make it the “all about Tabor’s original post” thread. Specifically I was addressing a point about the supposedly low ethical code of the HGs, which was not yours.

Please don't assume that I didn't understand your original post. I did. I just saw a few lines in there that I didn't agree with and focused on those in my later posts. And overall, what exactly do you want from these hgs? What is one to do about a gossipy nature, or a jealous one, or one that steals pencils from the office or puts family first? I guess my overall reaction is—well, so what!?

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok one more.

Annitar--

Not talking about morals.

1st, do you think we are seeing the HG's true character at this point in the game? Do you think they are able to hide their character for this long?

2nd, do you think they are any different (in their decision making process and how they go about things) outside of the house?

3rd, using your life experience and how you assess the HG's character, don't you think you have met people just like them in your life.

4th, do you really believe that they think it is a game or are they just using it as an excuse for actions that usually have no excuse?

Thanks for participating.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
BBnan--
Thanks for jumping in.

I'm glad these HG's aren't going to grow up to run Enron. Then we would really be in trouble.

What? Oh. Sorry.
Too late for Enron.

Well, I'm glad we are finally starting to make the CEO's personally responsible for their signature anyway. It is about time.

What was their excuse?

We need more people with better character in key positions.

Oregonfire

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
One last comment: If I thought the ethical code question was yours, Tabor, then I misspoke. The posts were flying fast and furious and I didn't have time to go back and check just who said what until later. Suddenly there was flurry of posts disagreeing with me about various things, so there you go. I had forgotten all about your little manifesto.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:34 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregonfire-
Well put. I'm tired and don't want to insult your good effort by not spending enough time on it.
I'll get to it tomorrow.
(Do you mean manifesto in a bad way?)
Stick around a few more...

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
OFire-
You said:
"You decided to jump in and make it the “all about Tabor’s original post” thread. Specifically I was addressing a point about the supposedly low ethical code of the HGs, which was not yours."

I was only trying to keep the discussion on track. I find that once it gets too far off, you can't get it back.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ofire-
You also said:
"...what exactly do you want from these hgs?"
A: There is nothing they can give me. Much I can observe and learn.

"What is one to do about a gossipy nature, or a jealous one, or one that steals pencils from the office or puts family first? I guess my overall reaction is—well, so what!?"
A: Once I get to the "so what" stage I'll stop posting. Or maybe I'll start a "So What" thread, then stop posting.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
For me stealing is stealing.
Actually, someone stealing toilet paper may in fact get more time than some of those Enron guys. (hah hah)

You take something that is not yours -- that is stealing. How the law deals with each case... is outside my expertise.

Tobor7

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregonfire--

What do you think about people that steal toilet paper and pencils from work. They are not in dire need. I never said that. They just grab it so they don't have to buy it. And they take pens and paper and pads and whatever else they may need around the house. They steal these things from the person that employs them.

What do you think of a person who does this?
Would you have a person like this working for you?
How many times catching them would it take to fire them?

BTW-- my nic is T O B O R 7-- the second character is an "O" not an "A". Tabor is another guy on another board talking about something totally different.(tip hat to Resevoir Dogs)

Romans8_1

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 05:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The problem is that people don't see themselves as truly sinful. We are not sinful becuase we sin, we sin because we are sinful. That's a fact. We like to sugarcoat life and dream up a different reality because we like to keep the allusion that we are in control. Well, I can say the sky is not blue, and if I say it enough times and really want to believe it, I can probably make myself see the sky as a different color. The problem is that I've only change my perception of reality, not reality itself. We are sinners. There is a God. Until one realizes that they need saving, they will never be saved.

I am not suprised at the things we humans do. Once you realize our sinful nature and that people have turned their backs on God, then it doesn't because a question of "Why do they do that?", but a statement of "Of course they would do that."

Here's a saying that drives it home...
"You do what you do, because you are what you are."

Just some food for thought to the confused.