Archive through September 14, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: ARCHIVE THREE: What is wrong with playing to win?: Archive through September 14, 2002

Gritss

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 02:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I see so many negative comments about the hamsters because they don't follow some idealized theory of playing "nice".

Maybe I'm clueless, but isn't the object to win as much money as possible within the rules of the contract they signed?

Someone please explain to me why you hate any HG who doesn't play by the rules you [imagine] you would play by in that situation.

Romans8_1

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
There is a difference between lying in the context of the game and being mean/hateful.

Punkin

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I remember my parents always telling me the old saying, "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game". Well, we all know that is DOES matter whether you win or lose, but I still believe the part of "it's how you play the game". There's a difference between playing cutthroat with class and playing cutthroat and tacky.

Silversamba

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Also, you can only burn so many bridges before you get burned back...

Zeyna

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Short of violence, I do think that HGs should be able to use any tactic or strategy they choose in order to win the game, but this does not mean they will be a respected player.

Danielle has been a strong player in this game and will most likely win something. She has every right to play the game any which way..Do I like her? From what I've seen, absolutely not. It's not that she's not playing by some imagined rules I would play by, it's more an assessment of the way she's behaved.

Wendo

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"What is wrong with playing to win?"

Absolutely nothing Gritss. Everyone just has their own "standards" on how it should be won, that's all.

That's why debate is even possible. Imagine if we all felt the same way...there'd be no threads!

Perish the thought!

Niceguy

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think I've said this before but what the heck...The Japanese have a phrase for it that loosely translates,"Winning Ugly."

That's what a first place win by Danielle would be.

It sort of goes against the western cultural norm.

The jury is made up of a cross-section of western society.

We'll see.

I'll take my soapbox with me, thank you.

Maryk

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 03:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Anyone has to right to play the game the way they want.

But the jury also has no rules that say how they choose the winner. The "loser" already has won $50K. If BB really wanted some sort of other objective criteria, they could have eliminated the jury and come up with another way to choose the winner. I think its part of how you play the game is to not burn your bridges to the evicted HGs, if you don't do this as part of your overall plan, you don't deserve to be the ultimate winner.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Big Brother is a game which teaches that the lie is better than the truth; breaking your word is better than having honor. The excuse is that when the prize is big enough then the laws of God can be broken. A promise made to Marcellas (or anyone else) is a promise. It is not like a glance or a clouded face in a poker game, it is the spoken word. A promise or affirmation made in any context, whether it is a game of big brother or the game of business should be sacrosanct.

Excusing lies here is the same logic of all cheaters and criminals, who practice deception in order to gain the "big prize." Many of the criminals now rotting away in prison, who have conned their way to fortunes have always been scrupulous to a fault on small stuff. They saved their lies for the times when the stakes were the highest.

If I showed you a way you could make $500,000 dishonestly, by only telling one lie, would you do it? Maybe you could rationalize it, by thinking of all the good things you could do with the money.

Yes, Big Brother is in this way, a mirror of the game of life. When the prize is big enough, for many people, moral codes change and equivocations are easily excused.

Gina8642

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't have any problem with playing to win.

IMO I think if Dani had not cruelly bashed the other HGs she could be sitting in the exact same position she is now. The difference being, many more of the former HGs would vote for her in the end. Personally I would like her much more.

Lying, alliances, even back stabbing are all parts of the game, and are legitimate stratagies to win. I think cruel and vicious bashing of people is unnecessary and doens't really help anyone in the game. It is just plain mean.

Bailey

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Danielle played dirty.. she didn't cheat.. but she came close to it. Her game plan was as offensive to me as her trashing evicted hg's was.
She going to have to step across a line of broken hearts to reach her best.. which will never be better than second place.

Gritss

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Is there really a big diff between what Dani said in the DR and what Will said last year?

Lancecrossfire

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yes, there is. The difference is that Will didn't say much about anyone once they left. Dani and others continue to berate them long after they are gone.

Will's comments about others were just as "hateful". He put them down, called them names, showed no respect for anyone--basically contempt for all.

But he let it drop after they were gone.

Wendo

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gritss, I see no difference. But, as I said, everyone has a different set of standards as to what they feel is acceptable and not acceptable.

For instance, last year, I was sure Will would lose. I thought his DR coupled with his final argument would KILL his chances for winning. As we know now, it was not so.

Bbaddict

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gritss, I think the big diff is that Will openly lied and admitted it to anyone that asked. He was very honest that he lied. I see something quite different in the way Dani lies versus the way Will lied. Maybe I just liked him more than her.

Sanfranjoshfan

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
" What is wrong with playing to win?"

Nothing at all. I think the best analogy would be a poker game. If someone is playing poker and they "bluff", which is like a "lie" or a "misdirection", then that is perfectly fine....it is well within the confines of the game and it is totally acceptable and nobody would question that. However, if a person lost a hand because of a particularly good bluff by another player....and then excused him or herself to go to the bathroom before the next hand was dealt, and while in the bathroom wrote: "So and So is a dirty MF-ing So and So" on the bathroom wall, and then came back and rejoined the others at the poker table with a smile on his or her face....well, that's different. I think it's THAT kind of behavior that has some of us so irked. It has nothing to do with the game....it's just mean-spirited and nasty retribution for having been bluffed or mislead....which is exactly what they are ALL trying to do.

That's how *I* see the difference presenting itself. The hypocrisy of the players that do that is what makes it so bad....JMO

Gritss

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bbaddict, thank you. I agree that was a diff.

From the replies so far, it seems many here think they would put honor/dignity above the cash. And I think many of the hamsters do that also.

I just couldn't find fault with anyone playing the game for all that cash in the best way to maximize their chance to win. Won't win them popularity points, but the people who know them will understand, and others... who cares?

C1mag

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm still confused as too what horrible trashing comments Dani has made about the others? When I refer to the others they would be the same ones that all allowed Josh to bitterly attack Gerry to his face about his family of all things. Not one of them stood in defense of Gerry except Lori. With this group I think it is funny. It was alright if they did the bashing up until they leave the house but then all of a sudden they didn't do it and it seems to matter within the context of picking the winner. I'm still wondering how Lisa is gonna justify calling Gerry a pedifile. Oh wait Dani is the one who has done the alleged horrible trashing... Hahahahaha! Yeah right! Truth is, so far she is the only one owning up too any trashing. The rest have amnesia when they evaluate their personal comments.

Sanfranjoshfan

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 05:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Cimag - "I'm still confused as too what horrible trashing comments Dani has made about the others?'

Did you miss it a day or so after Roddy left when Dani was calling him a MF-ng "rooster+one-born-every-minute" (it's a riddle with an obvious answer....i don't wanna get my account TVCH revoked for spelling it out) and then saying that if she could, she would spit on him? She said this in the backyard to all the other HGs. She said it with such vehemence and hate that it totally shocked ME....someone that already didn't like Dani at all, but I still did not expect that kind of hate to spew out of her mouth. Btw, that *particular* rant contained more than one "MF' plus other words. At the time, Roddy was already GONE....for Roddy, winning the game for him was no longer a possibility....so Dani's hate filled rhetoric was nothing but pure unadulterated nastiness. She did tear him to pieces many times after he left....but that particular time was SO intense that the hate was palpable.

I am not just reitierating what others posted....I saw and heard it myself.

Niceguy

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't recall Will bringing his fellow HG's family members into it. That and the fact that once they were gone he didn't bring them up ad nauseum.

Letmeinthere

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I've read most of these threads about Dani and have seen the same people jump into a topic to defend Dani. That's fine but I have something to ask...

How come when Dani trashes evicted HG's as well as mocking Amy (while she's still living in the house)its acceptable to some people here? However, when another poster comments on their opinion of Dani there is this big outcry that its not fair to say these things? Sometimes the post is so long I lose interest and go to the next one..

Everyone has an opinion and I'm glad they do or else this world would be pretty boring. However, there is no need to go mental just because someone has a different opionion of Dani than you do.

I don't believe anyone has to justify why they don't like Dani. That is their feelings towards her and they are entitled to that. If you like Dani then that is great, don't get mad at other posters just because they don't.

Its nothing personal, just business.

Keiffer

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
MaryK brought up I think the best point here. That is that part of the game is to make alliances.. lie to people... mislead people... BUT you need to do all that in a way that still allows evicted HG's to think of you in a positive way. That is what made Roddy the actual biggest threat in the house to Danny. Not the stuff Marcy and Jason were concernes about. Not that stuff about him getting people to do things for him... but that he had stayed in the house, had managed to even be a HOH and still most all the evicted HG's coming back would have liked him.

To answer the threads question: It is alright to play to win. It is just that you do not win by making it to the final two. You win by getting people who had a chance at 500k, but no longer do have that chance because of you... to vote for you to win it. That is the part Danny had not done very well.

Letmeinthere

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good point Keiffer! I also believe its about the evicted HG's not being able to win but wanting you to win - because they like how you played the game. They played fair and with integrity, IMO

Its not if you win or lose, but how you play the game.

Wendo

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Niceguy said, "I don't recall Will bringing his fellow HG's family members into it. That and the fact that once they were gone he didn't bring them up ad nauseum."

Many, if not all, of the HG's this year have brought up the HG's families. Josh being one of the biggest offenders by comparing Gerry's wife to Eva Braun.

And, not one of the HG's there called him out on it. Just because you're not participating and only laughing doesn't mean your hands are clean.

Keiffer

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
One other comment though in connection to me saying Danny hasn't played for the final vote very well. I would like to add that everyday more time goes by and that allows for perceptions to change. Gerry Roddy, and Chiara have all said they would perfer Jason over Danny, but that will have been weeks ago by the time they vote. Lots of factors and emotions will play into this but I have no idea today if Danny has truly lost.

Just saying she has not played for the end game as well as Roddy did, or Jason has.