Ethics of the Game
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Ethics of the Game
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Archive through August 30, 2002 25   08/30 03:52pm

Twiggyish

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 03:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Only, me too. It's not something I want to see, either.

Jasonfan

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This is precisely why I don't think I could ever be on the show. If a HG (like J) does NOT nominate or evict a friend (R), he is called weak, a puppet, etc. If a HG does nominate a friend (M nom A), he is a backstabber, mean, etc. I know the situations are different, but no matter the decision, someone will be critical. Now they are down to six. Of these remaining six, is there anyone who really dislikes anyone else? Every nomination and eviction could be seen as a "betrayal".

Watching the show, it's easy for me to say "I know what I would do." But when it actually comes time to make that call. . .

I think all must be kept in perspective. I like what Gerry said last night. "I had a rich life coming in. . ." No one is losing a life or a family member or even having money taken from them. They are simply being removed from an opportunity to win money.

Wendo

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Stingerman said, "Gee lets see, Marcellus will sell Amy out and has no problem with it. He asks Danni what she is doing and she says she wanted it to be him and her and Jason, but now Jason is no. 3. Gee maybe Jason will be happy at finding this out, after Danni told him she could care less about Marcellus."

Actually, I believe that Dani will tell Jason about this. Dani has already said in many DR entries that she doesn't trust Marcellas. She said this to him to make him trust her. That's it. I don't believe for a second that she sees Jason as number 3. There have been no other indications supporting this. In this game, you tell people what they want to hear. That's what she did with Marcellas. But, in the end, I truly believe her alliance is with Jason, to the end if they can.

"In my books Both Marcellus and Danni are scum for screwing there supposed friends over. I guess we will have to wait and see if either of them have the common sense and decency to change there ways but right now it's not looking too good."

Hmm, friends. They didn't even know these people before entering the house. In my opinion, friendship in there is relative to advancing your position in the game. It's business as Dani says. Not friendship. These people are there to do a job, win money. Friendship is nothing more than a by product.

Jan

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
very well stated karuuna

Bbholden

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm so glad some of you see what I am getting at. Yes, it is all a game. I guess to me, I feel good, about myself, about those of you that do see there is more than just a game here.

Our ability to see that the game and the reality are blurred, is a good thing. It makes us hesitate, it makes us feel guilty for laughing or makes us cringe, and that is good.

As long as we are still cringing, still feeling guilty, still questioning the ethics.. we are going to be ok.. it is, IMO, when we no longer care to question, when anything goes is the rule and a rule no one questions, that we have to worry.

Thanks for your input... thanks for taking the time to stop and express your thoughts.

Costacat

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
BB, I tend to sort of agree with you. Although this IS a game, I think the quality of the game has deteriorated (rapidly) each year. I place the blame for that squarely on ASP.

I do NOT think that the people in this house, and their actions/reactions, are typical of society as a whole. That said, however, I think there IS a microcosm of society that revels in trashing those less fortunate. Those people persist in finding the negative in everything.

I think we are witnessing something ugly, and I think we know it. (Er, maybe just you 'n me? <grin>) I have had a bad taste in my mouth the last few weeks with this show and these HGs. I realize it's a game, but I think there is too much emphasis on badmouthing one HG to another. This is detrimental to the mood of the HGs and the tone of the show. Yes, they are playing a game. And yes, they have Will on which to model their behaviors.

Yes, I think society has become less civilized. It's apparent in every day tasks -- rude drivers, rude clerks in stores, rude customers. There seems to be a preponderance of total disregard to other people's feelings. I think THIS is magnified in the house.

Are we responsible? As individuals, yes. As a society, yes. Can we do anything about it? Yes. One step at a time. Will we make a difference? Yes, eventually. There is a lot of intolerance that needs to be erradicated before we will totally succeed. (Note: I originally wrote "hatred" instead of "intolerance" -- you decide which word you want to use.)

No, I don't believe we need to build bomb shelters. But yes, I think we should be scared. We, as a society, received a serious awakening on Sept 11. For some time thereafter we all had a common goal -- to survive, to heal, to try to return to life as we knew it. I think we have strayed somewhat from the latter. Yes, this IS a game. But have you paid attention to the *tone* of the postings on this board? There is a lot of intolerance. There is a lot of "if you don't agree with me you must be _____". (You can fill in the blank.)

So, yes, this is a game. But I think these HGs are people with whom I would NOT want to associate after the game ends. Yes, their rudenesses (or whatever) may be magnified due to the situation in which the HGs find themselves. But note... a magnification. They would not be acting this way if there wasn't a core of dishonesty, deceit in their collective hearts. Yes, they will "do anything" to win $500K. And that, I think, BBHolden, is the difference between them, and you 'n me. I won't do anything to win a half million dollars. And I won't compromise my own integrity to win a half million dollars.

You *said* you wanted to have a discussion! <grin>

Allietex

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Beholden, have faith. I do not believe that the people in the BB house represent society as a whole. These are not just ordinary people. They were chosen to create a certain setting so as to provide entertainment. They are extreme sterotypes. Think about it. The sweet southern bell, the histronic gay black man, the crude old white guy, the hot chicks, the good looking hunks, the fierce protective mother,and these are just the last of the lot to remain. Throw these extreme types into a pressure filled setting with no privacy,very little contact with the outside world, very little to do and knowing they are being watched 24/7, throw in a prize of a half million bucks. Then require them to eliminate one person each week, which of neccessity results in plotting and minipulation. Then stir the pot with provocative questions designed to foster suspicion and dissent. This is not representative of general society. We are better than that. Remember there was a time in human history when fights to the death and excutions were considered public entertainment. I have faith that while some segments of our society have gotten worse, on the whole I think we have improved. I hope I do not sound like a Pollyanna, but that is the way I feel. Saying all that I have to say I am no longer sure who I want to win because I see few redeeming qualities in those left in the house.

Stingerman

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Very true Wendo they didn't know any of these people, but 2 months of 24/7 is like spending 8 months to a year of your life with one of your friends. You can't expect to spend that much time with people and not make friends and maybe even a very good and close friend, such as (A%M) (D%J).

Amy knew that if any one of those other people had gotten HOH she was gone. Now if Marcellus puts her up against anybody other than Roddy she is certain to go. In fact even with Roddy she has a good chance of going. She was so happy that Marcellus won the contest because she knew that HER FRIEND wouldn't nominate her, just like if she had won HOH she wouldn't nominate him.

Any way you slice this just because this is a game doesn't mean you have to play badly, especially when you say you have these high morals to begin with.

Rose_City

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bbholden, I wanted to thank you for these excellent, thought-provoking questions. I'm still ruminating many of the ideas presented here. Great posts! Last week, I mentioned in a thread that I thought BB to be a great social experiment and you should have seen my face after being splattered through the monitor with virtual tomatoes. Though the show is soley for entertainment, I still believe it's a fascinating peek into human behavior. Sure, it's not in the same class as let's say the PBS show Castaway. Did you see that show? Thirty-six people, of all ages, established a society for a year on Taransay Island. Talk about personality clashes! Now THAT was a social experiment extraordinaire.

Here, we have a dozen people living a fish bowl existence for a few months, and though it's a game, we do see the worst of human nature. How far will the entertainment industry take it? Well, look how TV has changed in the last decade. Would BB have succeeded on the same level 10 years ago? What about shows like Dog Eat Dog? Fear Factor? The Osbournes? Anna Nicole? It will be interesting to see just how far...or maybe we won't want to.

Bbholden

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Allie and Costa... I think there are so many of us that see behind the scenes... that have the bad taste in our mouths, that fear not for ourselves, but for our children, and their children yet to be. Thank goodness, the saints, God or the Spirits.

I don't blame ASP though, it's a capitalistic society and demands are filled. We are the consumers and I guess this show just makes me feel like the worst kind of consumer.

I don't think my voice is loud enough nor strong enough nor important enough to make any changes. However, I think I will do what I can.. and that means I will write to ASP and tell him how much more I liked Chicken George tending his flock and Curtis and his little silly dance and jokes.

I am holding myself responsible for what I watch and what I demand to watch. I will just do what I feel I need to. I want to get across to ASP that BB4 can be a better show. A show that makes us feel good. A show where consideration for one another, kindness, tolerance and intelligence is the focal point. That you can win and win big, and not have to lose your dignity, your ethics.

We viewers are indeed capable of appreciating a show with higher standards.. so why allow ASP to shove hamburger down our throats when we can and do know how to appreciate steak.

I have heard my Mother say this a million times... look forward, do not forget what is behind you, but keep moving forward. Strive for the best, never settle for so so.

Bigjohn1070

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with you all on the darker fractional side of society or the underbelly as it were the HG on the most part represent.

It does not surprise me in the least that Mar would turn on Amy. Didn't he just do a Judas act of Gerry? Gerry saved Mar's pork chops week one but what does he get, the door. Ethics? Yes, a lesson on what are NOT considered ethical by today's society.

Mar represnts totally what is wrong with much of today's society. I am so disappointed as he could have done himself, his chosen sexuality and race a huge boost, but NO he does just the opposite.

But this is TV and misfits "Jerry Springer" types sell commercial time. Is this sad or what?

Car54

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
All but the final two HAVE to get evicted. That is the point, and for that to happen, people get evicted by people they have lived with, slept with, whatever for weeks and weeks.

That IS the game. They all know it.

Rose_City

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bbholden, As much as I agree with you--and I do--Shapiro won't give a rats patootie if we want kinder gentler shows as long as sponsers think the majority want blood and guts. Bottom line as always? Moolah. Sad, eh?

P.S. In my post before: soley=solely. I can't believe I didn't catch it. Now, I'll be fined in Word Court. :)

Bbholden

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 05:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Rose, I was in the hospital during the time of the Castaways and did not get to see the show. I have to check it out and see if there are tapes of it. Thanks for reminding me.

I just loved the series where the families lived like pioneers... just wonderful. I also watched the series where the family moved into a 1900 bult home and had to live the way the original owners lived.

I love Survivor, but each time I watch it I say to myself that I would rather no one be evicted, and we just watch how they build thier little world... to me, that is the interesting part.. how people adapt and survive.

BB caught my attention the first time because it was advertised in my area as a psychological test turned game show. I loved the first show, I disliked the second show. Second show I tuned out after all that ugliness with Nicole... I could not watch it. I said it was because they voted out Bunky, but the truth was that I just could not watch it... same this year.. I just can't watch it anymore.. I have reached my threshold.

I like to think that I've seen the darkness and am choosing not to enter...rofl

Rose_City

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 05:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bbholden: Pass me the flashlight; I'll walk with you. I, too, think BB2 was unctuous. Nicole needed help! And this show is getting downright mean, too. What about talk radio? Have you heard that stuff? It's downright filthy sometimes. Please pass the Irish Spring!

As for Castaway, I don't think there are any tapes of the show! I wish there were. If I hear of any, I'll let you know. It was fabulous, as was the 1900 House (the book is lovely, too!)and The Frontier House last year. Good news: They're filming some sort of Colonial Days mini series. I don't know the details but I do know the families will have to live by strick standards of old...er, olde. Should be fun!
Thanks again for this thread. Loved the ideas and scenarios.

Lancecrossfire

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 06:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think this is a great thread, and a great topic to discuss. As the game has progressed, it's been more and more an issue brought up related to what the HGs are doing.

The great thing is that we all see the same thing each HG is doing--although how we process it, evaluate it, and relate to it is different for each of us. Every single HG has had folks who really like what they are doing, really dislike what they are doing, or have people who don't care one way or the other.

Karuuna used the example of a chess game and how the ethics are that anyone would do whatever it took to take your opponent’s piece from the board. I would agree with that. She also said that in BB many of the rules are assumed and not stated. I also agree to that; to a degree.

Where I see BB being so much different than chess, is that chess is about a game with inanimate objects on a board, each moving based on what you decide (within the rules of the game). In BB, the game pieces are the people themselves, and while there are rules it’s the interaction of the people that make it so different than in chess. In chess, a person can be slow and deliberate with their moves, not saying a word in between moves. Another player can move their pieces boldly, with vigor, and talk up a storm the whole time. End the end though, you merely move the pieces off the board.

In BB, you can take different approaches as well, but those approaches end up meaning a PERSON is removed from the board. Same thing with Survivor, actually.

So it’s personal, because each of those pieces on the board isn’t an inanimate object. That makes the issue of ethics that much more powerful.

Here is my thoughts about that, using chess and BB.

In chess, a person can curse, yell, throw food, call their opponent names, etc, and it’s not against the rules for the game of chess (I like to use monopoly as that example). Yet, most chess players wouldn’t do that. And if they did, most people would find them to be total jerks. But in the context of the game of chess and taking the other person’s king, it plays little into the outcome of the game.

In BB, doing most of those things happens. Some are looked at as ok, some not ok, and some are either, depending upon the situation where used. Notice calling Gerry names was more common just before he was evicted—yet when Josh was doing it, that was a horrible thing in the eyes of the very people who were doing it the past week. The way BB is played becomes important to most because it affects the person themselves.

Let’s look at the ethics of strategy. Both Roddy and Danielle are manipulating people in big ways. Yet for some, Roddy is the scum of the earth, and for others Danielle is. Why?? It’s the way they go about doing it. (note that the single biggest difference is that when Roddy wants to manipulate someone, he does it face to face—when Danielle wants to, she basically has someone else do it for her)

Jason is hanging back for the most part, being nice, treating everyone decent. A valid way to play the game of BB, just as is manipulation. Some people thinks Jason is the greatest player in BB3 and deserves to win the big prize, while others feel he isn’t playing the game at all (flying under the radar) and deserves nothing.

Lisa got involved with Eric, and once Eric was gone, you see Lisa playing the game differently. Some think couples end up not playing, and deserve nothing, while others think that being a couple gives you more power and is a good strategy.

Gerry tried to get along with everyone, even though he had little in common. Some thought was a valiant effort, and some saw it as a total fake just being a kiss up.

So, how can we see the same things (and remember, all are valid ways to play the game) so differently? Because of how we set our ethics. It’s ok to lie, backstab, cheat, throw competitions, etc, because for those folks, this is a game of chess. It isn’t personal in any way what so ever. For some, because the game is with people, it is personal. For those, the ethics may still be all that other stuff is ok, and big deal if you hurt someone in the process—they will get over it. For others, how they play the game becomes as important as winning the game (Jason for instance in being willing to give Roddy the game to keep a promise).

Back to that chess or monopoly game—the rules don’t prohibit a player from calling the other player a scum bag. Or in monopoly, the rules don’t say that if you have 3 people playing, 2 can’t gang up on the one to bankrupt him—but many people would say that isn’t a cool way to play. Why? It’s within the rules, right? Yep, it is—because the rules don’t say you can’t do that. But is it fair to play monopoly that way with 3 players? I guess it depends if you are Will or Jason.

But if you do it with people, all of a sudden it raises more flags to a greater number of people—because it’s personal too many folks.

And that brings me to a question I have an answer for myself, but know others have their own thoughts. Should it be ok to have alliances for a game that is individual? Remember that monopoly game I mentioned?? Does the one person have nay chance at all against the two who decided to gang up on him? Most likely not. Is it a contest that can truly show who plays monopoly the best? Depends on your definition of what “the best” game means.

All IMHO

Rose_City

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 06:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Excellent post, Lancecrossfire! Loved it! Many great posts on this thread!

Niceguy

Friday, August 30, 2002 - 06:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
BBholden your point is well taken.


I was reading in a newsgroup some weeks ago someone describe BB as Nazi entertainment. Television that doesn't just entertain but de-sensitizes.

Roman Gladiatorial contests and Mayan ritual(virgin sacrifices)aren't something that will ever make it to prime time television, right?

Its just about the money...right?