Archive through August 13, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archives: Archive Four: Atheist Roddy playing the game (ARCHIVE): Archive through August 13, 2002

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
San, can a free thinker also be a Christian? What if a person goes against the "herd" and follows their own ideas. You don't think a person can freely think and belong to an organized religion?

Romans8_1

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I've always found it interesting that "following the herd mentality" is somehow always portrayed in a demeaning manner. Following the herd is only bad if the herd is following a lie. If the herd mentality says that the earth is round, should be break from the herd? Of course not.

Somewhere along the line if became fashionable to be different from the norm. Some even brag about it and carry it like an honor. I can respect that, if it is truth that one is after. But to break from the "herd" for the sake of it, is really just joining another herd.

Maris

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If it was a herd of lemmings what would you do?

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:43 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
ohhhh good point Maris..LOL

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Following the herd is only bad if the herd is following a lie."

Or an untruth. I am an atheist and I believe that the idea of a god is an untruth. Therefore, I believe that following the herd of "believers" is "following a lie" (to use your term for the purposes of this discussion). I don't really think it is "a lie", though. I don't believe in god so I think it is a false assumption (or belief). This is how *I* feel....I am not trying to change your beliefs. You are more than welcome to them.

"If the herd mentality says that the earth is round, should be break from the herd? Of course not. "

You use that argument because you believe the earth is round.

God is an idea that cannot be proven or disproven like a round earth vs flat earth can. I could use your own statement to argue back to you:

If the herd mentality says that there is a god, should we break from the herd? I say: Of course.

I use the same argument because I believe there is no god.

This is what I mean about it being tough to admit to atheism in a christian herd....

Can't I respect Roddy for going against the grain and forming his own beliefs even when it is not the easiest way to go?

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"If it was a herd of lemmings what would you do?"

But since we are talking about people.....what if it was a herd of slave owners, or a herd of townsfolk that burned witches at the stake, or a herd of fundamentalists that believed all homosexuals should be stoned to death? Those herds were not following a "lie"....I don't think their leaders intentionally "lied" to them for the sake of persecuting others. They were following the truth as they saw it...because of their beliefs.

You can't say that the herd mentality is the right way to go simply because it is the majority. Sometimes it is not the right thing to do, even if it is not classified as an outright "lie".

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh so the herd has a name.. Christian. hmmmm..
What if the herd was Muslim, would I be going against them because I am Christian?
I think it depends on the herd.

In Roddy's case, he seems to want to be head bull..LOL (Leading the herd)

Romans8_1

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My breaking the herd comment was not meant to be a Christian vs. Atheist comparison. More in general. Our society today discourages those from following ANY herd. What they don't realize, is that is a herd mentality on it's own. I respect those that are seeking the truth. Not breaking tradition just for the sake of it to portray some image.

On a side note: I don't think there are any true athiests. There are just those that have interpreted the evidence to negate a God. To disbelieve in God 100% would take faith. There is always evidence that we haven't seen and one would have to have faith that the evidence did not prove there was a God. Also one would have to have faith that they were interpreting that evidence correctly. There is just as much faith in athiesm as in other religious beliefs. I've said this next part before ... We all have faith in something. To have faith is not the question. The question is "What faith is the most logical to have faith in."

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If the herd did not have my truths, as I believe them, I would not follow. I am a free thinker in that respect.

Wcv63

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Geesh..not all Christians are following the herd. They simply have one common belief...not a set of beliefs or a set of ideas..ONE belief. Each Christian chooses how to define and interpret and question.

Just as all Atheists have one common belief. As SanFran himself pointed out, not a set of beliefs or a set of ideas..One belief.

Neither is a herd...and Atheism can't be held up as a standard for free thinking because it's not an original idea. It's been around for a long, long, long time. I'd venture to say there have been Atheists ever since there has been a belief in God.

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggyish - "Oh so the herd has a name.. Christian. hmmmm..
What if the herd was Muslim, would I be going against them because I am Christian?
I think it depends on the herd. "

EXACTLY! I think you are finally getting it. If you were in Afghanistan and you were Christian, then you would be going against the herd.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
So you are saying, you aren't following our particular herd. However, you are then herding all of us into one corral. (sorry for the pun)

WCV, yup, good point.

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Our society today discourages those from following ANY herd."

They are defintiely not discouraging me from going along with the majority "groupthink" that there is a christian god. I see it as a herd...there are a lot of believers that cannot accept the fact that I do not believe....nothing would make them happier than me believing exactly what they want me to. No, thank you.

I simply cannot and will not join the herd and run blindly with faith in a story that frankly seems rather silly to me.

That's the context of the herd I am referring to.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Understood. I can see your point.

Jane_Bond

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jane waves - Hello from a Canadian atheist who took the "The Bible as Literature" class at McMaster University!

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"On a side note: I don't think there are any true athiests. There are just those that have interpreted the evidence to negate a God. To disbelieve in God 100% would take faith."

You are playing semantics now. I'm not biting! LOL

Yes, I do have faith in my convictions. I do not have faith in god....at all...period....and yes, that is my final answer.

Arguing over your definition of "faith" in my contextual use of the word is a spurious and silly argument. I don't mean to be rude but that is really funny to me.

Wcv63

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'd venture to say that my beliefs are very different from what you call majority "groupthink". As I said the one central theme binding me to Christianity is ONE belief. One idea.

Just as you continue to say that the one central theme that makes you like other atheists is ONE belief.

I have no herd. Just the little pack I call my family. About 4 members all told.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have a herd of 3 myself.

Snee

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Christianity, Muslimism, Buddhism, etc., are all organized groups. these ways of living one's life i think can be called herds.

when i think about a people-herd, i envision a bunch of like-minded people. but, not everyone in that herd is necessarily completely like-minded, even though they have many similar ideas. they can be free-thinking as well--personally, i think doubt and exploration are healthy whether they renew old beliefs or create new ones. (synthesis can be very interesting.) granted, some people do this and some (many? most?) don't.

'herd mentality' makes me think of people belonging to a people-bunch (for lack of a better term right now) for the sake of belonging to it and because it is the accepted way to be.
i believe that's what you said, sanfran. correct me if i'm wrong.

i suppose my distinction is that not everyone in the herd has herd mentality; they're not all living their lives in similar ways just for the sake of being together. i do realize that in parts of the world many (most perhaps, depending on the country) people do belong to the 'herd' because it is the accepted way of living...and because to not belong to the herd is unpleasant or even dangerous.

in the western world many people are what i refer to as 'cultural Christians' who profess belief (sometimes vague) and even involve themselves in the structures of Christianity--the religion part, weekly church or high and holy days attendance--but don't actually live their lives with that deep kind of faith. i would say that is definitely herd mentality behaviour. sanfran, it seems like your 'herd mentality' is my 'cultural Christianity'.

here's an observation i've made about where i live: it is 'normal' for euro-canadians to say they are Christians but it is, in some circles, not that acceptable to be 'too' Christian. interesting.

whewph, long post!

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jane, I think almost everyone has had that class or one similar. It shouldn't matter whether or not you are an Atheist.

Romans8_1

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:19 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Please don't misunderstand me. My comments where not directed towards you directly. I was speaking of society in general and the direction that we are heading towards.

I think things out very logically and do not have a problem with that. My comments were to the affect that society wants us to question everything and accept nothing. Maybe that's OK. I just don't hold that opinion. So as some would say, I guess I am going against the herd that says there are not any absolutes (except for the fact that there are no absolutes :) ). I do believe in reality. We want our perception to define reality, but no amout of wishing will make it so. Reality is what it is. That is very frustrating to some. Some think that since we cannot come to a consenses as to what reality is, then we should all make up our own. We are all right. Sorry. We are not all right. Reality is what it is. Those who earnestly seek it, I can respect. Those that distort it for the sake of distorting it, I cannot intellectually respect.

Am I talking about Christianity vs Atheism? Not necessarily. This arguement can certainly be played out in this forum. But it is really being played out in our whole society. There is no such thing as right/wrong/existance/thoughts/whatever. Then we wonder why people do what they do. We shouldn't say "why do they do that" Instead we should say "but of course they would do that." When you understand a belief system, the actions one takes can be very predictable. (as long as the person is a rational being).

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wow Snee..that gets a 5 Snee Award. I know cultural Christians, too.

I agree about not everyone having herd mentality, yet they are in a herd of some sort.
It makes sense that a lot of people do not blindly follow their leader. (imo)

Snee

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
addition: 'cultural Christian' or cultural anything else.

Snee

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
romans: 'We want our perception to define reality, but no amout of wishing will make it so. Reality is what it is.'

so you are completely convinced that your reality is 'the' reality and that use of the word 'your' is inappropriate? just want to get that straight. again, correct me if i'm wrong.

Snee

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! i've been sucked into the swirling sucking eddy of off-topic that is the 'roddy/atheist' thread! oh, well.

i'll be back after dinner IF i feel like being serious!