Archive through August 13, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archives: Archive Four: Atheist Roddy playing the game (ARCHIVE): Archive through August 13, 2002

Jane_Bond

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wcv, I think it just goes to show not only the fairly decent logic skills of all those you agree with (ie, they/we all make good arguments for our different opinions), but it is also testament to how logic can be used to any purpose under the sun and does not nescessarily prove truth every time (shades of Phil 1A01!). (tho, darnit! I'm always right!!! Haha!)

Wcv63

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think it also means I'd be a pretty poor candidate for serving on a jury! :)

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I got more to say....should I?
About how everything concerning Christian "rules" and various Christian "religions" intreprete things different.

A Christian is a Christian because a single Choice he made. Everything else is vulnerable to human limitations, including misintrepretations, various focuses, group mentality and various "group formations...thus religions"

A christian is a Christian regardless what set of rules he follows or doesn't follow.

There can be what we considor "good" Christians, just as we can consider there to be "good" Aethistists.

This "good" comes from how the moral majority of a given community accepts personal behavior as right or wrong. I think we can all agree on what defines basic good behavior.

Wcv63

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree Kearie.....but then you knew I would! :)

Jane_Bond

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Kearie, I have to vehemently say that I do not agree with your statement that Christianity is a choice. This is only true of adult christians, and further, only of some of them. To not believe in God is to go against the majority of humans on the planet (not all of whom are christian, granted, but all who believe in a supreme being).

As a christian, I think it would be very hard for someone to discern the christian bias that the US in particular has (much as it is hard for a non-minority - of any persuasion - to understand how deeply racism, homophobia, misogyny, whatever, truly runs; we can be aware that it exists but someone on the other side of the fence will not be able to fully understand it).

For example: children are baptized and indoctrinated with Christian propaganda from birth and the assumption that there is a god is cosntantly validated and enhanced through our family's, government sponsored holidays, heck, it even says "In God We Trust" on your money, doesn't it?, most people swear using god's name and where did they learn to do it if not from their earliest age and christian culture which creates taboos around such words, "God Bless America" , the church v. state/ prayer in school argument - all of these point to the fact that christianity is the prevailing and assumed belief system of your culture (I am assuming you are American...).

To be atheist is to be in opposition to the norm. It is to suddenly decide that "There is no god" and that decision and that belief is the product of intellectual deliberation.

The day the practices of baptism/christening, Sunday School, dragging children to church, institutionalizing religious holidays, etc, are stopped in favour of allowing children to grow up to choose their spiritual beliefs is the day that Christianity stops being something that is indoctrinated in most of us since birth.

And, fear not that atheists miss out on the whole comfort of true belief. I am a true believer: that there is no god. I KNOW that their is no god and that faith is constantly tested but naver shaken.

Wcv63

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:10 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well Jane...the spell is broken and I finally disagree.

I think everyone reaches a point where they begin to question the belief system they grew up with. It's a right of passage just like puberty. It's at this point that one's true belief system begins to come into focus.

Therefore the use of free will does come into play because every one of us is allowed to question and change our beliefs even if our moral code remains the same.

Kearie

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I gave you my personal definition of what Christianity is.

For you to say..."I have to vehemently say that I do not agree with your statement that Christianity is a choice. This is only true of adult christians, and further, only of some of them."...then you should understand that I don't believe....folks who disagree with my definition, are Christians.

We can't discuss this without first understanding MY definiton of Christianity. I can understand YOUR definition of Aetheism.

If you are going to vehnemently disagree with what I say, and refute a point I make, be sure you are refuting me based on MY definition, not what you perceive is the definition of "Christian"

(Definitely not trying to be curt or rude or single anyone out. This is all my personal belief and I'm not passing any judgement on people who disagree with my definition of what a Christian is.)

Jane_Bond

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Yes, but you've made my argument for me: question and change our beliefs.

That is precisely the point I was making: christianity and belief in god is taught to us from the beginning, it is only when we develop the intellectual capacity to assess these beliefs that one can then choose to remain christian (and/or modify those christian beliefs) or become something else entirely.

I remember the very moment I had my atheist epiphany. And I did much soul-searching (and active research, tho I realise that most people don't go researching dozens of belief systems) and continue to do so, to affirm my own faith.

I still contend tho, that many people never question the belief systems that they were conditioned to believe but continue to accept them blindly. It is not everyone who questions themselves and opens their hearts and minds to doubt.

In a perfect world we would all actively challenge our on belief systems. I think many religions discourage this, however, as church attendance continues to dwindle.

Jane_Bond

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I believe we were trying to discuss what a Christian was, not your personal spiritual belief - you personal faith. They are two very different things.

I mean, you can't argue a point in general by working from your personal faith.

Kearie

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Christianity, based on my definition, isn't indoctrinated in us. Yes, we all hear "God this" and God that". "One Nation under God" "In God we trust" etc. In your examples I don't see Christ is the Son of God. I don't see anything to do with Christ. Christianity...is rooted in WHO Christ is. Not who God is.

I see politics adhearing the fore-Fathers...the seeking of religious Freedom. "In God we Trust", "One nation under God" and such are accepted as politically correct. We still want to see our country as "One nation" When these statements first emerged they meant something to the people saying them...the person who "penned" them. For most of us now... those words mean little other than memorized words seen everywhere. They certainly don't define Christianity or propegate Christian beliefs.

Wcv63

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
But Jane you just contradicted yourself. You said that Christianity wasn't a choice but indoctrinated from the time we are little. And because of the prevalence of Christian based themes in our culture we are further brainwashed into our beliefs.

I said was that even those who grow up within a certain belief structure come to a point where they question those beliefs. That questioning and redefining of beliefs may change our viewpoints. Free will certainly does come into play when it comes to what we believe and what our faith (if any) will be.

Your second post was a reiteration (in effect) of what I had just said.

See I can use logic effectively too!

Kearie

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There hasn't been a post in which you have said, "this is my definition of Christianity".

I was simply sharing my thoughts and definition of Christianity to compare it to what Karunna was saying. I was adding that in my opinion...there is an action step in BEING a Christian rather than just a taught belief in God.

"I believe we were trying to discuss what a Christian was, not your personal spiritual belief - you personal faith." ...

My personal, spiritual belief is exactly what makes me a Christian.

Kearie

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
People who adhere to the Jewish faith believe in God. They don't believe Christ was the Son of God. They are not Christian's and they will gladly tell you so. So perhaps we could say "In God we Trust" and "One nation under God" is more accurately Jewish propeganda rather than Christian propeganda.

With this line of thinking...couldn't we say we are all taught to be Jewish and that at some point in our Jewish lives we learn about Christ.
Following this, we either consciously decide to believe in Christ as the Son of God and aceept him as our Savior...thus becoming Christians, or we chose to reject Christ as the Son of God, thus remaining Jewish?

HUH?

Moedog

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The thread about Christian Jason is about Christians. The Atheist Roddy thread is about Christians. Perhaps we should start a thread about Jewish Josh so we can talk more about Christians.

Wcv63

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well Moedog I talked about Atheism earlier. The thread just metamorphosed into its current incarnation.

Go ahead and redirect.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 06:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh no, how did this topic change?? This isn't a deep thinking thread..

Bbnan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Back to Roddy. Roddy's atheism is about the only thing I like about him actually. That and the fact that he is not afraid to admit it.

I read...was it in this thread?... that there is a lot of Christian bashing on the web. The reason is because it is anonymous. Non-believers are scared to say it out loud. Believe me, there are a lot more non-believers out there than polls would indicate.

If someone came up to me and asked me if I believed in god, or a conversation turned that way, I would lie, or keep my mouth shut.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
BB, that's a good point. To me, it's about respect.

Nutsy

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
*spewing coffee all over screen*

Oh my heck, this is the funniest thread title EVER.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks!

Hillbilly

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
{{hillbilly hands Nutsy the bottle of windex}}

Mystery

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
My best friend works for our state dental association and their staff party in December went from being a Christmas party to a "holiday" party to a "harvest fair" (after some people objected to the notion that there were ANY holidays to be celebrated in December) and I fully expect it to morph into some kind of winter solstice by next year!

(Do I need to mention that I'm in California?)

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 07:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
To get back to the topic of this thread.... Roddy is not allowing his atheism (the accepted definition for all atheists as a non belief in a god, or supreme being) to get in the way of his game playing. In fact, I find it interesting that he has had conversations where he has talked about how to play this game while remaining honest! His godless nature does not require a heartless behavior.

Religious affiliations are used by some as a guideline for living, for others as a badge of pride, and for some others as a shield behind which to hide their true nature. Roddy's lack of religion gives him nothing to hide behind or live up to. He is a man that apparently believes in trying to play an honest game, so what you see is what you get. I admire that and I admire the fact that he has the guts to come out and say that he does not believe in a concept that this country seems to want to push down all our throats.

Now don't get your panties all in a bunch....I said Roddy's *tries* to be honest in this game. He's doing the same as the believers in the house, which is using technicalities and denial to see things that are inherently dishonest in a better light. They are ALL doing that, no matter how pious (or godless) they are purported to be.

Jeez...this is so hard for me. I really DO like Roddy and I really DO dislike Josh (His Jewish faith has nothing to do with it)...but I SO want to see the look of shock on Chia's and Roddy's face if he is booted!

SUCH A QUANDRY!

LOL

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"and I fully expect it to morph into some kind of winter solstice by next year! "

I thought that was where it initially came from! Weren't many of our current holidays originally fesitvals that were based on paga rites that were co-opted by the church to lessen the strength of the pagan rites by turning them into chrisitian ones?

Isn't that where the idea of a christmas tree came from, or the easter bunny with eggs (from the spring soltice rites)

I am not an expert on this, but I do know I have read things that point to this.

Jane_Bond

Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Good Morning, and thanks for the re-direction. A little too much of the "Druggie" thread coupled with staying up till 4am seemed to inspire me to all kinds of running off at the mouth in the wee hours!