Archive through August 12, 2002
MoveCloseDeleteAdmin

TV ClubHouse: Archives: Archive Three: Christian Jason Playing the Game: Archive through August 12, 2002

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh jeez....now this thread has become an actual pulpit.

Mollywood

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
JEWS FOR JESUS..why doesnt Josh learn from Ja

Wcv63

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Serenity Now!!

SanFran: Festivus for the rest of us!

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I actually thot Roman's Post was nice, explaining his point of view and simply offereing an e-mail address.

Goddessatlaw

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hey, guys, you know I don't like to discuss this stuff but I like reading your thoughts on it. I didn't see the early parts of your thread. Have you already dissected the arguments FOR believing in a God as opposed to the arguments AGAINST believing in a God? I forget the philosopher, maybe one of you can remind me, but his discourse on the subject is summed up as "You've got everything to lose and nothing to gain by not believing, and everything to gain but nothing to lose by believing." I'd be interested in your thoughts on the matter, if you're interested in this line of discussion (PS I still won't engage, but thought maybe this could get you guys back on track since there's nothing to get personal with).

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 04:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran...my post to Verdana was not getting personal. And my point in pointing that out is simple. I haven't shared it yet.

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Goddess, you are talking about the same philosopher I mentioned. Like you, I forgot his name also.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
" And my point in pointing that out is simple. I haven't shared it yet."

I do not understand this statement....you mean you just posted a partial response? If so, what was the point of that?

:-)

Goddessatlaw

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hadn't seen that post of yours, Kearie - but yes, that's the same one. Crap - now I'm going to have to go look him up. Wasn't Millwood, was it?

Mamaanja

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Kearie and Goddess--it's called Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal.

Verdana

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
[DISCLAIMER: Sometimes I use the words "baby," "honey" and "precious" in my writing. It is my writing style. It is not meant to be condescending or demeaning (as some have misinterpreted)].

[ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER: I use the term Mr Christian God since most (if not all) Christians BELIEVE that the Christian God is a He God. But as far as I'm concerned it can be a She God.]

Romans 8_1 says: Well, I can believe that I'll never physically die, but all the belief in the world won't stop it.

Honey, someone finally indirectly said it. I was waiting for it to hit...the bottom line, that is: Fear of Death.

The reason people are afraid NOT to believe in a religion is because they are afraid of what will happen to them when they die. The unknown of what happens. Well, precious, I'm here to tell you you'll turn very smelly, degrade slowly, and turn into trees, grass, bugs or maybe eventually another human animal. We've all been in this state many times before.

Some Christians believe they will go to be with God and sit on the right hand of God (well Good Lord in Heaven, is that a sexual thing or something? And is Mr. Christian God's right hand that big to hold all of these Christians?) plus they will swim in the river of milk and honey. Now baby, I don't know about you, but the idea of swimming around in milk and honey is not something that turns me on...a pretty sticky mess and then some.

My Southern Baptist sister's preacher says at funerals: Sister Smith has gone to be with God. Really? How can that be? What happened to Judgment Day? Did Sister Smith by-pass Judgment Day or what? Hmmmmmm.

Keep threading...

Bridgetlovesbb

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:19 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
>>Now baby, I don't know about you, but the idea of swimming around in milk and honey is not something that turns me on...a pretty sticky mess and then some. <<

EEEWWWWWWWWWWWW can you imagine the mosquito's swarming aroung THAT river??? UGH! LOL

Goddessatlaw

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks, Mamaanja - haven't looked at the stuff in 20 years.

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
SanFran, I think I'm going brain dead from being on this computer so long. I'm beginning to not even make sense to myself.

I guess I'm thinking many sound angry at this "God", they don't believe in, for not fixing our human errors.

God gave mankind free will. Which mean man can choose to murder, abuse and do any number of cruel things to other humans...for whatever reason, that person says they did it for.

Yes, God is almighty enough that He can jump in and stop any of these tragedies. But for what purpose? If some unexplained thing happened and the planes blew up right before hitting the trade center, would you suddenly believe in the Ulmitghty God and believe in His mercy? The 'miracle' would probably be explained away by some theories of scientific mumble jumble.

The people who have faith in God already believe in miracles. We don't need to see earth shattering evidence of God's merciful envolvement in our lives. We feel it and believe in it already.

God isn't responsible for children suffering or for the Trade Center disaster. God isn't responsibile for these human errors and horrors of being human.

These horrific failings as humans is what we get from free will.

If God jumped in and fixed every hurtful, painful thing that ever occured...would we be who we are...would we have strength, maturity and wisdom?

We are who we are, a system of values and beliefs because of things we were taught or because of experiences which we have learned from. Pain and suffering, loss and gain are all part of who we are as individuals.

Why would God want to take that all away from us...Wouldn't we then just be blind puppets on a string that God controls?

Kearie

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Mam. :)

Cajunrambler

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Veranda, I'll try my best to explain. There are two judgments that take place. The first is addressed to the Christians in the church of Corinth. The apostle Paul explains that every Christian will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is not a judgment to determine entrance into heaven, but what rewards the believer will receive. There is some difference of opinions as to when that judgment occurs. I hold it to be at the time of the believers death.

(1 Cor. 5:10) "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

The second judgment takes place after the Battle of Armageddon and after the 1000 year reign of Christ. This is called the Great White Throne Judgment. This is a judgment of the unbelievers.

(Rev. 20:11-15) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Kminfinity

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:42 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, I'm not sure I want to jump in here, but okay....

To Mystery and others, who expect God to solve all problems and prevent all evil :

This is a major philosophical issue, sometimes called "the problem of pain", sometimes refered to as God's "permission" for evil to exist. There are numerous arguments that explain, justify, excuse, etc. God from being responsible for the evil in creation. Here are a few ideas :

1--Creation included the idea/concept of free will. Free will means that God cannot "control" creation like a wind-up toy. If She did, then all things, including human beings, would be nothing more than robots, and responsible for none of out actions. A related metaphor : Imagine how cheated you would feel if you learned that every moment in the BB house was scripted, and the players were all robots with programmed behavior. B_O_R_R_R_I_N_G.... Well, a universe with God intervening to prevent every evil and every bit of suffering would be the same thing....only worse, because it would mean that we don't really exist as free human creatures, but are merely puppets.

2. Then the next argument that flows if one accepts point 1 is, "But then why did God CREATE at all if the creation was going to be flawed by the free will choices of the beings in His creation?" Well, that presupposes that the basis of creation is evil. That a life with evil in it is one not worth living. That, if I must suffer, I cannot enjoy the good of life. I disagree. Life is beautuful and precious, DESPITE the suffering and evil one must endure. Therefore, I "forgive" God for CREATING, if the only choice was to CREATE or NOT. A nice metaphor : Parents choose to have children knowing that the child will suffer, etc. Having a child is a life-affirming choice. The act of creation was a life-affirming choice for God.

3. This is a little more "out there" but I like this analogy. It pertains to the Christian need for intervention by God to "Save" creation : So God, the artist, made His creation, knowing it would be flawed by evil. But like any good artist, She is constantly fiddling with the work, editing it, changing it, trying to improve it. Think of God as a painter, who is constantly trying to bypass the limits of the quality of the paints she works with. Sure, it's a self imposed rule to work with paint, but if the painter rejects the paint and becomes a photographer, the creation is different. Now God could choose to do that, in which case, hello Armageddon.

(I often wonder what a majestic creation it would be if all of creation would knowingly CHOOSE to be the creation envisioned by God. Oh yeah--that would be Heaven. Save that speculation for another thread. :P )

Carigsby

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
First and foremost, I want to say that I am agnostic. I was raised Southern Baptist and during my first philosphy class in college - I began to question and haven't really figured anything out since.

At this point in my life I obviously don't have the faith required by my religion. During my questioning - I was told that I would find answers on the other side because some things just can't be explained. That's fine, that is how he believes and how he teaches.

Having said all that - I find it interesting that throughout this thread, several people have expressed aggravation at those who knock on their doors to share their religion while at the same time, some posters are demanding answers from those who have religious believes - all the while asking questions that are impossible to answer because they are questions that those who believe have to just have in faith in. That's part of believing. I find it very juvenile to ask something of a person that questions their faith (or lack thereof) and use the lack of an adequate answer as a reason to tell them their faith is wrong.

I feel that having a faith (or not having a faith) in a religion is a very personal choice and it is no one's business to question it. I may not want Jehova's Witnesses to knock on my door - but I respect their right in this country to do so(especially since I also have the right to say "no thank you" and shut said door).

The posters on this board do an incredible job at (for the most part) respecting other people's opinions. However - this thread is full of back and forth and back and forth that will never be resolved. Those who don't believe are not going to be swayed by something that is said on a board and vice versa.

On the other hand, I think that this thread has been very educational in some ways. However, I think it is quickly moving in the other direction, honey.

Mschumacher

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have stayed away from this subject until now, but feel I must respond to this topic, specifically what Kearie wrote.

I find it most astounding how so many religious believers do their best to excuse the behaviour or lack of behaviour of God when it comes to preventing pain and suffering on the Earth. Someone wrote that Christians do their best to make excuse after excuse for God. That's very true. For some amazing reason, Christians feel obligated to protect God. Very curious indeed considering, as many people have said, God is all powerful.

The topic of Free Will is something which interests me a great deal. There is no Free Will with God when the choices are:
1. You either believe in God OR
2. Burn in hell for eternity.

What kind of choice is that?

If one doesn't believe in an entity, one has many more choices than these.

Many Christians say that God is fully in control. If that is true, how can there be Free Will?

If your child is about to be hit by a car, isn't it your duty as a parent to do your best to stop this accident? One would think that an all merciful and loving God would also stop tragedy but he doesn't.

Kearie writes:
>>>God isn't responsible for children suffering or for the Trade Center disaster. God isn't responsibile for these human errors and horrors of being human.<<<

Response: Who made humans? God, so he therefore is responsible and, remember he is all powerful. He just chooses not to be responsible.

Kearie writes:
>>>If God jumped in and fixed every hurtful, painful thing that ever occured...would we be who we are...would we have strength, maturity and wisdom?<<

Response:
Yes we would because God is all powerful and can make us whatever he chooses without all the suffering.

To Verdana: I agree with you. The word "all powerful" really says it all.

Kind Regards.

Bridgetlovesbb

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
cajun, i have to disagree. The Bible states there will be a judgement DAY not days.

Romans8_1

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The great and gracious God of ours gave us free will as Kearie has reminded us. What a wonderful gift!! To create something (us) and then give us the ability to reject the creator. Kind of like us being parents. We bring a child into this world, and then they have the ability to love us, or reject us. (This is a human analogy of course and not perfectly transferable).

God does not want robots. What does He want? Near as I can tell, it is to have a relationship with Him. For those of you that are parents, what do you want for your children? Yeah, material things are nice. But when it comes down to it, we just want our kids to love us and for us to love our kids an for us to have a relationship with each other.

All I do know is this. I love and worship God because He is worthy of worship, not because I fear death. If heaven and hell were erased and we winked out of existence when this life was over, I would still love and worship God. Why, because of the relationship I have had with him. I wish this feeling of love for all of you.

There is a saying "For those who believe, no explaination is necessary. For those who do not, no explaination is possible." The longer I live and develop relationships with people, the truer this becomes. It is something you have to experience. It's sort of like the end of the movie "Contact" for those of you who have seen it.

You can defend Christianity with logic. The misconception is that Christians are dumb and ignorant. I so wish you can feel this love of God. It is so amazing!! No matter what you've done in life, God wants you. I am a testimony to that.

Some may say, and many more may think, that here goes another sermon. I'm not here to bash anyone. I've been reading for days this debate on God and just wanted to weigh in on the other side. I will sadly leave if the majority wants this to be a one-sided God bashing thread and ask me to stop. I'm not writing this out of some ego to prove that I am right and someone else is wrong. "I" do not matter. I truly care about you or I would have just passed this thread on by.

Please do not hate me, everything I do is out of love.

All glory and praise to my personal father God,
steve


Email me if you wish to privately learn more about our wonderful creator.
kasputis@attbi.com

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Kearie - "SanFran, I think I'm going brain dead from being on this computer so long. I'm beginning to not even make sense to myself."

No comment on that one. ;-)

"If God jumped in and fixed every hurtful, painful thing that ever occured...would we be who we are...would we have strength, maturity and wisdom?"

I believe that there is no god there to "give" me lessons that teach strength, maturity, and wisdom. I believe that I learn from my experience. This is true whether one believes in god as you do or whether one doesn't, like me.

"We are who we are, a system of values and beliefs because of things we were taught or because of experiences which we have learned from. Pain and suffering, loss and gain are all part of who we are as individuals."

I agree. This is a truth that does not need a "god" in the picture to support it.

"Why would God want to take that all away from us...Wouldn't we then just be blind puppets on a string that God controls?"

I can only answer that by saying that he does not exist, so the things he could or could not do is a question that I cannot answer. That would be like asking me whether the tooth fairy carries teeth away under her arm or in a little basket.

Everything that you just said is what YOU believe, but it's your "opinion" of the state of existence. MY opinion of the state of existence is such that I can't discuss god as a viable being. I can discuss the religions that men created and believe in, but as far as discussing god and his plans, we may as well be discussing what Homer Simpson actually had for dinner last night.

I didn't mean to imply Verdana's remarks were valid or invalid in regards to god's intent or plan....because I believe there can be no intent where there is no existence. This is my opinion and I have faith that I am correct. I just said what I did, because your response to her just sounded a bit curt and sarcastic. If that was not your intent, then I apologize for mentioning it.

:-)

Cajunrambler

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 05:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"cajun, i have to disagree. The Bible states there will be a judgement DAY not days."

Where do you find the phrase "judgment day" in scripture? I just did a word search and came up empty.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 06:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"There is no Free Will with God when the choices are:
1. You either believe in God OR
2. Burn in hell for eternity. "

This cracked me up because it is exactly the kind of "free" choice that Chiara gave the other HG: Swear to me that you will do what I say and not vote for Roddy....or you will be nominated instead of Roddy.

ROTFLMAO!

Bridgetlovesbb

Monday, August 12, 2002 - 06:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Cajun,

2 pet 3:7
But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgement and of the destruction of ungodly men.

I John 4:17
This is how love has been made perfect with us, that we may have freeness of speech on the day of judgement

Mat 12:36
I tell you that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on judgement day.

These are 3 I found so far.