Archive through August 10, 2002
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Christian Jason Playing the Game (Archive):
Archive through August 10, 2002
Battlestar | Friday, August 09, 2002 - 10:44 pm     Vancouvergirl.. If God has planned everything to a T--then where is the choice?? You can't have mapped out DESTINY and FREE WILL. One or the other --but not both |
Vancouvergirl | Friday, August 09, 2002 - 11:15 pm     Battlestar: I reiterate "as christians may believe." Does not necessarily mean that it is my opinion. Perhaps, the choice is in us - we choose to live our lives in a good way or we may choose to be evil, but either way we decide, our fate is in God's hands. For example: An extremely wonderful, christian person could be killed instantly in a car crash at the prime of their life. Or a bad ass evil person could also be killed in the same car crash... So the car crash could be looked at as "God's will or fate" Being a good person doesn't mean you are immune from bad situations and in some cases, it is very frustrating in life when so called "bad people" end up having very successful fortunate lives. We, as humans, judge them and say "she didn't deserve to die so young, she was so good" or " that a**hole didn't deserve to live so fortunately, they were truly evil." That was what I meant. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 03:03 am     If something bad happens, it's god's plan....if something good happens, it's god's plan.... What is the point of that? The only point I can see is to placate the huddled masses...better they humbly accept their poor lot in life than rise up against those that would keep them down for their own gain. It's a control thing. I was raised as Southern Baptist....about as "Christian" as you can get. I went to bible cass, Sunday school, prayer meetings, even chrch summer camp. When I was 12 years old I even walked up in church and was "saved"...was subsequently actually dunked underwater in the church's baptismal. At the time, even as a kid, I realized I was doing it out of simple peer pressure. All the self righteous churchfolk around me pressured me to "join the club". What a lot of pressure to place on a 12 year old kid, pushing him to make a public statement of something he did not believe, so as to not spend an eternity roasting in flames.....while being looked down upon and judged by my "peers" as a hellbent heathen for not believing their storybook. I do not believe that Jesus died for mine or anyone else's "sins". Not even a little bit. There may have been some charismatic leader named Jesus a couple of millennea ago....but as far as him being anything more than a regular guy....I simply do not believe that AT ALL. It makes no more sense than Santa Claus or the tooth fairy to me. However, I do believe that the right thing to do is to be a good person, an honest person and to not hurt others. According the "christian" religion I was raised in, no matter how good I am, if I don't believe in the Jesus-as-son-of-god mythology, then I am doomed to hell. It doesn't matter how good I am, how decent, how fair, how generous, how kind....if I don't believe that silly story that Jesus was born of a virgin, fathered by "god" and that he died for my "sins" then my eternal soul is damned for eternity.....? Huh? What is the point of that? The ONLY point of that that I can fathom is that it's an institutional way to help keep me "in my place", to remain humble, afraid, and not make any trouble for the "powers that be". That's the only thing I see religion doing....using the fear of disbelief in the mythology as a way to control the masses. They have even built peer pressure into the whole idea. I suppose a lot of "christians" will think I'm doomed....but I am still a good person and I still reject the notion of that supernatural, controlling hooey....and I am positive that I will not be spending even a day in some hellish nightmare, much less eternity. In the BB house, Jason can be as good as Mother Teresa....but that doesn't mean that he is being guided along by a supernatural entity. He could simply be a good person. And don't forget...last year's winner was a far cry from being a pious virgin christian, so apparently god is not the guiding force behind winning the BB game. |
Faerygdds | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 03:29 am     Oh man... I SO wanted to stay out of this, but BattleStar... I have to respond to your post. Destiny and free will can both exist. Destiny is the ending point, but free will helps determine how easy or hard it is to get to that same ending point. A real life analogy... Let's say that my destiny is go get to the airport. I can leave my parking space, go out of my complex and I immediately have a choice... I can turn left, hit the highway and go straight to DFW Intl Airport. OR I can turn right... go North a bit and try to avoid that nasty constuction area currently on our highway. OR I can turn left, choose NOT to get on the highway until after I have passed the construction area. I don't necessarily know which way would be easier or better, but I make an informed choice and just go for it. No matter what route I take (free will) I still get to the airport (destiny), right? The problem is that most people think linearly. If there is destiny, then every little thing in our lives is predetermined... why? Who made up that silly rule? The fact is that my analogy sounds kind of silly even though it illustrates a point... I mean really! Whose "destiny" is it to get to the airport??? Destiny is a term used when you find true love, discover what it is that you are supposed to be doing with your life, etc... In other words BIG THINGS! Free will... well.. that's all the stuff in between... make sense? Feel free to try and poke holes, but fair warning... I'm been arguing the free will vs destiny thing for around 6 years! |
Maryann | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 05:18 am     I think that a strong faith is a gift and it appears to me that Jason has it. I also think that Dani has a strong faith. I do NOT think that God will 'let' them win because of their faith. I figure their faith is what will help them recover faster if they lose. I don't think that God likes J and D more than the the other HGs. It seems to me that the players who were first out of the house got a pretty neat deal even thought they didn't win... Who knew? |
Reader234 | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 06:05 am     Sanfran just wanted to respond to your posts! As I can only speak for myself, I just thought I'd let you know there is at least one current Christian, and former S.Baptist, that doesnt think you are doomed!! (oh and no I dont have any thing to back that up!) I cant even begin to be as articulate, or knowledgable as many posters here! I just congratulate the thread continued a debate w/o flaming, or disolving into namecalling!! I enjoy reading opinions, and thoughts of others!! Due to some events in my past I have a strong faith, but do not believe I have to go to church each Sunday to appease a god. I have witnessed miracles in my life, and have held hands as friends and relatives died, I know to discuss those would affirm a faith for some, and a debate for others.I realized this when I offered a miracle and it was pointed out to me 'yeah but what about the others that dont get a miracle?' (hate when that happens!) a flip answer was given to me, a science fiction answer, that our time is measured here on earth diffently than in Heaven. But that is so lame I hesitate to even try to go there!! Like I said so many posters did such a better job that I hate to even venture a big toe in this discussion!! But then again, I never could keep my mouth shut! And I did have to take exception to Sanfrans comment that I would think he 'doomed' |
Kaili | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 09:05 am     Sanfran, I have said the same thing (or pretty close) so many times! I agree about Jesus being some charismatic guy who was a good person with good ideas, but not about virgin births and miracle ressurections days after death. My big differences was that I was raised with virtually no pressure of religion and was never even baptized! I have seen some jaws drop to the floor with that last statement that I made. And I feel that I am a good person regardless of that. I learned my morals from my mom and from general knowledge of right and wrong. Overall, I think Jason is just a good guy. If he feels he is playing for a higher power or whatever, let it be. We don't have to agree with him. I also didn't like Vecepia praying to win, but I haven't seen that from Jason. Maybe Jason is playing to represent his higher power by playing morally the way he feels is suitable. Then again, we know for a fact that CBS set up those pre-show shots of them and told them what to say. Jason saying he is playing for a higher power was probably something that he was forced to say to exploit his morals and make people want to see what the good boy would do on TV in that situation. He has not preached anything in the house and has kept his religion very private. Good for him. |
Bridgetlovesbb | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 09:14 am     hey mods, shouldnt this be moved by now?? <saying this with love> |
Wiseolowl | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 09:38 am     Bridget I agree.. feel a little guilty about keeping this thread alive. The theologians have been debating predestination vs. free will for four centuries. It will never end here and has little to do with this game.. Let's just all say Amen... So Be it ---it's over |
Maris | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 09:45 am     or we could expand the discussion to "Josh the Jew playing the game" since Josh mentions his religion frequently. LOL |
Ellenkats | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 09:51 am     Maris -- in which case I would have to make the distinction between 'those Jewish by birth' and 'those practicing Judaism.' Not to bash, but watching Josh's diet in the house, I see him more in the 'Jewish by birth' category. |
Crossfire | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:11 am     I am curious about the request to move the thread, which by all accounts has been one of the most well behaved I have ever seen especially given the seriously historically contentious subject matter. The discipline being shown is nearly off the scale compared to some of the other threads. I personally am seriously impressed with our behavior in here, and wish a grand kudos to all. |
Maris | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:18 am     There are different jews, orthodox, reformed. Orthodox Jews do not eat pork and within the Orthodox category you also have Jews who observe Glatt Kosher which is even stricter. There are many jews who are religious and observe traditions like passover, Channukah, etc who eat ham and pork. They mix their meats and their cheese. I was just making a joke because I dont see the significance of Jasons religion on his game playing. I see Jason as being very young, idealistic and is trying very hard to play an honest game but the task is becoming more and more difficult for him. I think his conflict is not so much about his religious beliefs but more that he is finding it very difficult to play a game with Chiara, Roddy and not lie. He hasnt lied yet and it is a daunting task. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:23 am     I agree, Crossfire....it's been a good one. And even remained relatively on topic! :-) I believe in free will and I thank god every day that I'm an atheist. ;-) |
Cajunrambler | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:25 am     Josh reminds me of the rebellious Jews Moses had to deal with during their 40 years in the wilderness. You got to love him though. |
Ellenkats | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:30 am     Maris -- oh dear, I hope my comment didn't bother you. I spend so much of time arguing these Jewish distinctions, I forget how serious I sound sometimes. That said... (lol) You mentioned >>There are many jews who are religious and observe traditions like passover, Channukah, etc who eat ham and pork.<< I would call this group 'Secular Jews' or "non-religious" but with strong ties to family/TRADITION!!! Note that many non-practicing christians might also go home for christmas or celebrate easter even though the rest of the year they may pay little attention to the christian faith. I hope that makes sense. Also (sorry this is such a peeve of mine)....but... Glatt kosher just means the lungs were clean (non-diseased) on the animal -- it means 'smooth' literally. A lot of people seem to think it means 'super kosher' but it really doesn't. Certainly there are different levels of observance within Judaism -- I have to agree utmost that I don't see Josh's religion (or lack thereof, or level of observance thereof) as a factor. I suppose I treat Jason differently because I feel Jason considers his beliefs relevant to how he plays the game in a way Josh really hasn't. :-) |
Ellenkats | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:35 am     Crossfire -- I too felt this was a cordial thread. I would hate to see it moved. I thought people were handling this discussion on christianity respectfully. |
Bridgetlovesbb | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:35 am     The request to move the thread has nothing to do with behavior. Everyone has been very polite but what do most of the posts have to do with BB3? I say "most" because some actually do have to do with it. Anyway, I put "saying with love" so that it did not come across rude. |
Wcv63 | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:40 am     I enjoy the occassional tangentially related topic discussion in the BB forum. Religion as it appears in the game, in life and on this board are valid discussion topics not so off topic as to be regulated to the general discussion thread or outside the house. I didn't find your suggestion rude Bridget...just don't agree with it. <saying with love> |
Maris | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:40 am     Nope I wasnt bothered at all I just have a lot of friends who are at different levels of judaism. I have one whose child is making his bar mitzvah but they never go to temple. I have another that can only eat Glatt Kosher which is a real pain in the neck as there are very few restaurants that observe Glatt Kosher so I consider it super orthodox. LOL. I have gotten the impression from Jason that he is deeply religious and is also very ethical and moral and these dont necessarily go hand in hand. There are many people who profess to be religious who are not very nice. Religion aside, I think his own standards and code of behavior prevent him from lying and backstabbing. I like Jason and it would be nice to see good guys finishing first but in order for him to finish first he is going to have to be very careful and it will become more and more difficult. As there are fewer people in the house he becomes more visible and more of a threat particularly to people like Dani. It isnt going to be easy and I will forgive him if his halo slips a little. lol |
Ellenkats | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:48 am     >>I have gotten the impression from Jason that he is deeply religious and is also very ethical and moral and these dont necessarily go hand in hand.<< Yes yes yes -- I am so enjoying reading all the comments arguing that the game and life have to be played the same way vs the game is different, so different rules apply. I almost feel sorry for Jason. :-) |
Maris | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:52 am     mods please delete this, I was typing an instant message to someone and mistakenly wrote inthe bb thread. |
Crossfire | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 11:10 am     "The request to move the thread has nothing to do with behavior. Everyone has been very polite but what do most of the posts have to do with BB3?" I know exactly what you are saying here. I've seen many other threads that fit the exact same description, and thought, 'Hey, why are these still here'? Especially after seeing a notice that some other thread is about to be moved, I notice others that could also be moved, but aren't. I have contemplated making a post exactly like yours, but then I think, well, no harm, no foul, everyone seems to be enjoying themselves even though its not anything I am interested in, I'll just pipe down, acknowledge that such-and-such a thread is not my cup of tea, and just ignore it, I'd hate to be the spoil sport. I hope I do not come across as rude or anything as that is EXACTLY what I want to avoid, both here, and in other threads where I said nothing. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 11:11 am     I would think that Jason telling Danielle that he would vote to evict Roddy (even though he said he wouldn't) could be seen as a strategic move, especially if someone were to veto Josh and f'rinstance...Dani was nommed in his place. Jason would still be a moral and ethical person, even when going against his promise to not vote for Roddy. However, if he decided to evict Roddy because he thought Roddy was a stuck up snob, or because he was jealous of him and Chia, then his ethics would be in question. All this faith vs sin stuff is (in my mind) an ethical dilemma that can only be differentiated by a player's INTENT...within the confines of a strategic game of social hierarchy and politics. Jason understands that his game playing is merely using the house's social politics to his advantage, whereas Josh constantly "plays the jew card" (his term, not mine!) and uses vindictiveness and tantrums in his game playing. Jason's INTENT is to be a good person while remaining strategically viable...some of the others' INTENT is to win at any cost....even by discarding decency, civility, and respect, while at the same time using blackmail and character assasintion in order to further his or her interests in the game. Bottom line: The whole faith/moral issue really boils down to the INTENT of the HG's behavior. Example: some religious folk would not feel that killing in self defense or in defense of your family's lives as "immoral" or sinful, whereas killing that same individual because you just didn't like his attitude or were jealous of his station in life would definitely be IMmoral. It's all a matter of context and of *intent*. One can remain strategic and remain respectful. Jason seems to "get" that, but some of the others do not. JMO |
Maris | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 11:13 am     I think they are pretty lax about threads. The thread about supporting the site isn't exactly an "in the house" thread but I am sure nobody has a problem with it. Its so easy to get off on a tangent with thread titles but eventually they go back to the subject at hand |
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