Archive through July 28, 2002
The ClubHouse: General Discussion Archives: A BUM rap for gays...:
Archive through July 28, 2002
Meggieprice | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:14 pm     I think in the open atmosphere in the house that the others are taking the opportunity to satisfy their curiosity about gay sex- and Marcellas is happy to oblige. They are all gettin' down and dirty with each other. That said, I think Marcellas is an elegant intelligent humorous guy. I adore him to pieces. Must also say my sister is a lesbian in a 25 year relationship so I am admittedly biased about such matters. |
Bastable | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:17 pm     Meggie, biased or open-minded? |
Spygirl | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:19 pm     <sigh> Glad everyone read my post. |
Meggieprice | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:20 pm     Thanks Bast!OPen-minded, of course. I'll take love in all forms over anger and hatred any day! |
Twiggyish | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:25 pm     I think Roddy likes the attention. Tweepee said, "He's an equal-opportunity narcissist" |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:36 pm     "continually state OPINIONS as FACTS (*cough* recent post above )" Spy - were you referring to my post....? If so, then I will say *in my opinion*, it is no worse than the girl's sex talk. :-) The thing is, when the above poster referred to Marce's remarks as a "<self moderated since I see the offensive word was removed above>" and in previous threads on this same issue...it was described as disgusting "male on male sex"....it strikes me as a bigoted remark, which is still an opinion....but I am allowed to debate generalized opinions that refer to a group (of which I belong) that are offensive and demeaning to me. It's just the double standard that I find so obvious. If a gay man says something graphic about gay sex, he is called a <whatever> but the girls can talk about str8 sex and be found acceptable. If it's good for the goose...it's good for the ga(y)nder! |
Spygirl | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:47 pm     I was speaking to the broader issue of posting opinions as facts, but yes, your post was the one I was offering as an example. I understand that many believe Marsellas is no worse than any others, but it is still an opinion filtered through one's own biases. And when I use the word bias, I do not use it negatively, I use it neutrally. It is just harder to initiate arguments when someone says "It is my view that Marsellas' sex talk is no worse than the girls. I believe there is a double standard that I find offensive". Maybe I'm just wishful thinking here, but I think it might help people to have their very thoughtful and meaningful ideas heard and not put other people on the defensive. It do believe many lines in the sand are drawn because people tend to state their own opinions as being the "end all be all" fact to which no one should or can disagree with (and that part was NOT directed at you, Sanfran Just a general idea). |
Ladytex | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 05:50 pm     Sanfran, I'm a str8 female that was bashed for saying (as quoted above),"He is no worse than the women in the house, like Lisa, Chiara etc". Call me a prude, but I don't like to listen to or read anyone's graphic sex talk. IMO (yes, my OPINION), none of it is any more acceptable than the other. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:00 pm     But Spygirl - "It is just harder to initiate arguments when someone says "It is my view that Marsellas' sex talk is no worse than the girls. I believe there is a double standard that I find offensive"." How can I defend my position in any argument on whether "Marce is a <whatever> because he talks graphically about sex", if my defense that he is NOT a <whatever> because of a double standard? Okay.....in this case the word was "pervert" but how can I state that, in my opinion, he is NOT a "pervert"... without pointing out that "pervert" is an exclusionary term that sets Marce apart from "regular" (in this case, str8) people? My defense of my argument here is that he is NOT different from the others, inasmuch as he has sex with partners and has talked about it graphically. The girls do it too....so he is within the realm of normal conversational behavior in that context. The only difference here is that Marce is gay man....and I don't think that's enough to label him "pervet" while not including the girls in that same definition. I gotta stand by my argument that "the girls do it, too" is not making it too difficult to discuss the issue. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:05 pm     Ladytex....exactly!! I was just reacting to Marcellas being singled out as a <that word>. This being a thread about a gay "bad rap" it struck me as being a double standard in the context in which that previous post was made (not yours!) I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here....Just sayin'... all of this is respectfully...JMO |
Earthmother | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:11 pm     Personally, in my opinion, gay, straight or in-between these people have not learned that there is a time and place for everything. In my opinion you shouldn't talk about your sexual exploits, give lessons on bjs, or talk about the preferred orafice, on national tv unless you don't mind having others call you on it. Usually children learn these values from their parents when they are young. In my opinion they are all doing the same thing and you cannot judge one without judging the other. In my opinion it doesn't matter what your sexual preference or gender you should be viewed the same. I personally don't have a problem with them talking this way, but as I've said before it's because I'm not their mother. |
Spygirl | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:12 pm     Maybe we are too far into the specifics of this particular topic to see the overall picture of what I'm trying to say. I think that your comment at 4:57pm simply sparks the "yes he is" "no he isn't" "well yes he is" kind of discussion that tends to be unproductive and spirals quickly downward. Take that for what it is worth given that my bias is simply not to engage in debates where the sole purpose is to prove that someone is wrong for their opinion. <shrug> Maybe that is why I don't engage in more of these "discussions" during Big Brother. I'm not saying that is exactly what the above posts are trying to do, but many times they are. I guess in some way I was hoping that my post might help to change the posting of some people -- which in and of itself is an attempt at changing someone else's opinion. Ironic, huh? But my actual motivation was to possibly help people to see how their FACTS are nothing more than their own OPINIONS and by stating them differently, they would be a little more well-received -- can you tell I'm a postmodernist? And an idealist, too...lol As a side, I probably should not have used your post to make my point, Sanfran, as the majority of your posts are well-thought out and informative. I chose poorly and for that I apologize  |
What555456 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:31 pm     I am a gay male and I believe Marcellus' comment ARE worse than the women's. No, objectively they are not. Descriptions of sexual activities are sexual activities. Anyone who does it is crass, boorish, and vulgar. To me, though, with Marcellus it comes down to a matter of respect. Most heteraosexuals are not real comfortable hearing graphic details of gay sexual activities. They know what they are, but they are uncomfortable hearng about them. As a simply matter of respect for the others, Marcellus should not be talking about something which is going to make them uncomfortable -- even if they ask about it. When they ask and he feels a need to answer (not sure why he does -- I wouldn't), there are ways to discuss it which do not need to include graphic details. American society needs to accept gays as fully as they accept anyone else -- and the society is moving that way, something I thank Bill Clinton for. But we homosexuals must respect the dominant culture. It is one thing to hold hands in public and say that people simply need to get used to it. See enough same sex couples holding hands, and people will get used to it. No one is hurt. But it is quite another to be on a national TV show --with 24/7 Internet access -- and discuss something which is so private and that we know the predominant culture is extremely uncomfortable with. No, the women should not be doing it either. True enough. But homosexual sex is not the norm, most people are not ready to hear about it and it makes them VERY uncomfortable. Marcellus needs to afford people the respect they deserve. |
What555456 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:37 pm     Now, concerning the real topic of this thread... Yes, I think gays are getting a bum rap based on the type of gays that are depicted on TV -- be it in reality shows or sit coms. BUT.... This is also where acceptance starts. I am glad to see us in all of these situations. We are not demeaned so much as used for jokes. OK. Not the best thing. But get people to a point they can easily laugh about/with gays (as opposed to at them) and it just another step for them to cry with us. Get them to cry with us, it is just another step to having them take us seriously and accepting us for who we are. Like any other group, this is a step by step process. Marcellus and Bunky were, as Sanfranjoshfan said (I believe it was SanFran)... they were put in there for entertainment values. But for God's sake... look at the other bozo's on BB1, BB2 and BB3. They were ALL chosen for entertainment value, not for being normal people. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:38 pm     Spy - to be honest, when I made that particular post, I knew it wasn't thought out. I'll admit I was just reacting to what I saw as an obvious homophobic statement and I cut it short, just to bug that poster. I think it worked...but it also sparked a debate on debating. :-) "debates where the sole purpose is to prove that someone is wrong for their opinion." If someone is of the opinion that all gay people are <that word> then I still think it's fine to debate that opinion. If we were only supposed to debate "facts" then what are we doing in a disccussion?....sticking to the LIVE feed posts would give us the "facts". Even then...debating just the "facts" would be a case of "So and so happened"... followed by "No it didn't ...so and SO happened!" Last year, I actually got a private email from a poster here that wrote to tell me that she had never seen gay people as anything past the sex act itself....she had been hung up on that one point and never saw the people past the act. My opinions helped her. She thanked me and told me she had actually changed hger opinion on gay people and that would see them as people rather than a "behavior". I think that was a perfect example of debating opinions. For the record, you can mentally add "JMO" to every post I make here...or anyone's for that matter) :-) |
Earthmother | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:45 pm     Therefore the same thing can be said for women to be discussing these things. They are not affording many of these people much respect either. I don't think it is the norm for young women to openly discuss their sexual exploits in a public forum. It does seem to bother many women who have posted on this very subject and makes them uncomfortable as well. Believe it or not I think we still raise our daughters to behave like young ladies. Does this mean that the norm even in the year 2002 is that only hetrosexual males can brag about their manhood and sexual prowess? I guess it does. |
Whit4you | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:47 pm     I'm sure alot of 40 something males could be outraged that Kent or Gerry represent older straight men. Or that southern women could be outraged at the way Amy and Krista represent southern women. All this expectation of someone supposing to represent millions of people becasue they happen to be of one race, ethneticity, area, or color or whatever is what gets to me!! Marc is a male who happens to be gay he shouldnt be expected to represent millions of others all with different personalities. I don't think anyone one gay person should represent gay people because gay people are as diverse as straight people are. It's everyone ELSE's expectations and watching THEM and their actions and reactions and so on and projecting their own ideals and phobias etc onto them. They don't tend to put a generic boring gay man in for the very same reason they don't put a boring generic older male in... it's TV it's supposed to be more then just the boring generic everyday type person. We will take a step forward in our bias's and our homophobia's I think when we STOP looking at someone as a role model for ALL gay's or ALL mexicans or ALL older females or whatever...and look at them as individuals. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:48 pm     What - the entertainment value I meant was the "Jack factor" (Will and Grace)....I just wish they would put a *typical* gay guy in there. I know gay men that are just like Roddy...but gay. In fact, I have a friend that could be Gerry's little twin brother, only with tattoos (same voice and EVERYTHING!) but gay. There are plenty of gay men that are just as "BB not normal" as a typical BB HG (and could be just as entertaining) without having to be a flaming stereotype. As far as gays getting a bad rap because of Marce's behavior...that's probably true for people that can't see that he's stereotypical rather than typical. |
Therlin | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:49 pm     Wow, you leave for a few hours and the conversation gets huge! Whether Marc represents us or not, I agree with whoever said that having openly gay people out there is a good thing. It helps others realize that there are gays out there. Some better adjusted than others, but we are out there. My boyfriend and I hold hands in public. Never have we ever gotten a single bad comment. The occasional shocked look from a guy, or the accepting smile from a female (thank you) but never a negative comment. It takes time. It takes effort from both sides. Can I show off a pic of me and my man? We are all family here, right? Click here |
What555456 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:53 pm     This discussion about Marcellus representing all gay men reminds me of a stand up routine done by Margaret Cho. In it, she relates a story of her mother taking a phone message for her. When she (Margaret) gets home, her mother tells her about the message and that it was from a guy. "Is he the gay?" her mother asks. Margaret answers..."THE gay? THE gay? That's a lot of responsibility to put on one guy, Mom. He'd have to do the whole parade by himself!" ROTFL every time I see her do this! |
What555456 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:57 pm     SaFranJoshFan I agree with you. I always enjoy it when I am with straight people who consider me a friend but know little about me -- usually work related -- who say, as you related earlier, they do not know any gay men! LOL!!!! I will usually lean closer to them and in a "we're all in this together" kind of whisper say something like "I know some, and you wouldn't believe what they are REALLY like!" |
Meggieprice | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 06:58 pm     WHAT- I don't think he is being worse. I doubt that Marc came out with any of his graphic descriptions until he knew they were welcomed and solicited.As I mentioned before, I think in the atmosphere of the house the others are taking the opportunity to learn about gay sex straight from the Marcellas' mouth. That CBS chose someone likely to open up in that way, and every other way, is obvious. (Ratings ratings ratings) Your point about rattling cages reminds me of the incredible joy I feel on the 4th of July here in Redwood City when PFLAG (parents friends and family of lesbians and gays)marches in the small town parade- right between the veterans of foreign wars and a marching band- Say it Loud! Needless to say I am shouting and dancing and waving MY flag! Maybe their presence doesn't quite seem appropriate to some... |
Sheila494 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 07:03 pm     geeeez..sorry i started all this. |
Oregonfire | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 07:05 pm     I do have to say though, I think this debate/ discussion has progressed since last year's similiar discussion about Bunky. baby steps... |
Tisha90029 | Sunday, July 28, 2002 - 07:07 pm     I am coming to this conversation too late, but I would like to respond to what What said in an earlier post: I think it is correct that most people are uncomfortable with gay sex and, as SanFran said, people are uncomfortable with gay men (but not lesbians, strangely) because of what they do in private. I think, however, that the response to this--to make gay men neutered or asexual--is pathological. That is the problem, IMHO, with Will and Grace as surely as it was with the film Philadelphia (one reviewer said of the film, to paraphrase, that it is amazing the Tom Hanks character could get AIDS when he seemed so loathe to kiss his lover). If one is uncomfortable with sexuality generally--and I can certainly appreciate that position although I do not share it--that is cool, but to make this into a gay sex/srt8 sex thing only shows how far we are from equality. |
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