Archive through September 26, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive FOUR: The conclusions we can draw from BB3's final vote.: Archive through September 26, 2002

Craziel

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 07:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi,

Just wanted to pop this message on the boards and see if I can get people's opinions. This is in part a repost of a post I put up a few moments ago, but i'll rephrase and clarify where I can.

Irrespective of the winner we must observe that the final three of Big Brother 3 were Jason, Danielle and Lisa. I think it is worthy of note also that Danielle, essentially, was the mastermind behind the other two's presence there in the final.

The shocking fact to many is that from this position of power, Danielle somehow lost almost unanimously to someone who "didn't play the game".

The question I want to ask is: what is playing the game?


Is it surviving from week to week and making yourself the undesirable evictee?

Is it winning HOH or POV when you absolutely have to?

Is it controlling the game and making sure the HG's leave in the order you need them to go?

Is it being popular and winning the final vote?


I think in light of these questions it is prudent to reexamine Will's strategies from BB2. I feel it's fairly safe to that Will did the best job of making himself the undesirable evictee week after week of nomination, and at the same time, he made himself popular (among ChillTown and in his honesty in the diary room).

He did not, however, win HOH - because it was never really necessary for him to do so. He also did not control things from behind the scenes in any way other than making himself the undesirable evictee. The gunsights were always on him.

Danielle did NOT play the same sort of game, IMHO - and I don't feel a comparison to Will is applicable or even correct. Danielle played a much less risky game than Will - she controlled things from the sidelines and was NEVER nominated for eviction - the gunsights were never on her at all until the very end.

Where Danielle failed, I feel, is in the popularity contest. I was talking with my wife last night and we agreed that BB3's winner would be less a question of whether Lisa deserved to win and more a question of whether Danielle deserved to lose.

Now you can call it spite, childishness, revenge or rebuke - whatever. I think that the almost unanimous 9-1 vote against Danielle says something critical: that being the most awesome behind-the-scenes mastermind and getting to the final two is worth only $33k unless you can retaining popularity while you do it.


This is the huge tradeoff for Danielle - as soon as the evictees left the house it became apparent to them that Danielle was the mastermind of the BB house. It is a blow to any evictee to be played so well - but the blow was magnified many times simply because Danielle was not gracious in her victories and did not fondly remember those who left. Frequently we on this very board would discuss Danielle's trashing of HG's, whether it be in the diary room, in a private talk with another HG, etc.

Danielle was competing against Danielle for 500g's.. and Danielle lost.

But here's where I get complicated.

Has anyone wondered why Lisa was so "boring" to watch on the feeds - as many had asserted?

Was she boring because she had nothing to say? Or was she boring because she was deliberately saying nothing?

I couldn't help but notice in the finale last night that the worst comment they could dig up on Lisa was her claim that Tonya was "materialistic". Now i'm sure that the posters here and the BB HG's have said far, FAR more damning things about Tonya - they even showed somewhat of Marcellus trashing her. If the worst thing they can dig up on Lisa is a "materialistic" comment about Tonya.. is that not good gameplaying?

Is it not good gameplaying to keep your mouth shut?

So, while I feel it's apparent that Danielle essentially defeated herself, I also want to emphasise that I feel Lisa really did succeed in three critical aspects of the game that I cited above:

She remained the unattractive evictee, even over Amy (why Jason evicted Amy as a "bigger threat", i'll NEVER know).

She won HOH when she had to.

She retained popularity in the BB house, simply by not overtly saying negative things.

Lisa didn't wander around gushing about her evicted HG's (except for Eric, hehe).. I think her advantage is simply that we can't be sure of her true opinions. Her most telling moment may well have been her eviction of Jason - she may have felt he was a nicer guy and probably deserved the money on those grounds more than Danielle, but she needed to evict him to further her own cause.

I feel its very easy to say that Lisa didn't play the game until the very last HOH.

What is harder to say is that Lisa played the game from the moment Eric was evicted - from the moment Danielle came to her with a thinly veiled request to use her as a final 3 tool - and kept her eyes open, her mouth shut and didn't ruin the evictees image of her.

So in that respect I think Lisa deserved to win because she was smart enough to play dumb and quiet. Credit must, of course, be given to Danielle in throwing the game.

The best bit from me was asking Lisa and Danielle to describe the HG's in a word. Danielle seemed to constantly quote their profession or outer personality, while Lisa seemed to show that she actually got to know them as people. It seemed to highlight to me that Danielle was less interested in the people and more interested in evicting them - which is what lost her the game.

I'm rambling so i'll end here :)

Spunky

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:12 am EditMoveDeleteIP
This is the thread I needed this morning and it answered quite a few questions I had and saved me opening new threads.

The biggest question was, of course, the huge majority of votes for Lisa. This is a bit hard to understand when we heard how the hgs commented on Danielle's playing the game and it seemed they all admired her and I thought she was going to win. Then, all of them, except Jason, vote for Lisa. This must have hurt Danielle, she was hiding it well, but it must have hurt for a proud woman like her. What we didn't hear was the rationale for their changing their minds so unanimously. Julie only asked Danielle and Lisa how they felt, but I would have liked to hear why they voted the way the did.

I guess it did come down to "popularity" and how Danielle failed in that miserably.

So, this will be a good lesson for future BB players, to know that "integrity" must be kept at all times. Lisa may have sidetracked once or twice but, I noticed, that it was under Danielle's influence, especially when they were alone in the house, sometime taking the bait when Danielle insisted on discussing the hgs (and I feared for Lisa that she was talking too much).

I agree 100% with your take and I will come back to this thread to remind myself why Lisa won, although I must have know all along why, but you put it so well.

I hope you'll be back for BB4.

Craziel

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thank you.. i'll be back for BB4 I think :) Shame I found this place so late :)

Shadowkat

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think Danielle was trying too hard to be a "Will". There was one VERY big difference in how they played however. Will constantly reminded the hgs that he would lie to them and to not believe anything he said. If the hgs chose to believe him, that was their fault. Since Will told everyone he was a liar, his DR conversations were no surprise to anyone. Dani never did this, and Marcellas is the perfect example. Marcellas believed that Danielle was a close alliance and she would never betray him, and in that assumption, he was wrong. She also portrayed herself to the hg as being trustworthy, so when the ehg figured out they had been had by her, they were mad. This didn't happen with Will because Will was upfront with them with his intentions of lying.

Cajunrambler

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Lisa's strategy was simply to keep her mouth shut. By not lying to others and staying relatively quiet, she was able to win over the jury votes, which in the end is what counted. She won on personality and not as an aggressive player.

Lying, cheating and coniving only works in Louisiana politics. :) I am from Louisiana, so I can say that.

Toolhound

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It is not how you play the game it is rather you win or not. Danielle lost to Lisa and that to me means Lisa out played her. When it came to the end games Lisa won the physical challenge and the mental challenge. Like it or not you Danielle fans she lost because she didn't win the most important thing. The respect of the other HGs.

Jagger

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
All I can conclude from the votes is that each person voted for the person they wanted to win the game, nothing more, nothing less. I would have loved to hear their reasons for voting how they did. I wish cbs would put their entire talks out there, not just the few seconds of edited comments from each hg, so we could hear what each person had to say about the others and the eventual winner and 2nd place winner.

Earthmother

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I disagree Toolhound I don't think Lisa outplayed her, she outplayed herself. It would not have mattered who was up against her at the end. Lisa only won because in the eyes of the jury (for once Tonya hit the nail on the head) it was the lessor of two evils and had nothing to do with how the game was played.

If Will had been up against Monica last year the same thing would have happened. People only remember their pain not the pain they inflict and to be dissed publically by another and then have a chance to publically do the same by voting against them at the most crucial time is revenge plain and simple.

It would not surprise me one bit if Marc and Roddy set out to get a unanimous vote but couldn't get Jason to play into their pettiness game. Those two were so into voting to evict on a unanimous front it sickened me. Eric was a non issue and so was Chiara, they voted for Loveeeeeeee....gag me!!

Mack

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think you're right on the money Toolhound when you say she didn't win the respect of the other HG. Sure, BB edited the DR comments of the jury to build the suspense during the show last night and it made it seem for awhile that Dani might win. I would imagine if you had access to the unedited videotape you'd hear something along the lines that she played well and won respect for that but lost it with her DR comments. In the final analysis it was the jury's choice and they picked Lisa. Lisa won, plain and simple.

Spunky

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 08:57 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I guess we are looking for reasons why they changed their minds with that almost unanimous vote for Lisa. I hope we will hear their reasons on some radio or tv talk. Especially Josh has a lot of explaining to do...

But I still stick to the idea that Lisa outplayed Danielle at the end (her declining of the 15k was a deciding factor for some hgs), but especially in the most important competitions of the last HOH, whereas Danielle's betrayal of Jason was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Coaster266

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Can't wait for next year! A house full of Lisas and
Jasons throwing hohs (except for the last one of
course) and talking nicely about each other in the
dr....yawn.

Duncan

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am going to drop my own opinion here....in the beginning of the show, I was really rooting for Dani and Jason. I thought their alliance of two was a brillaint idea, and Dani's manipulation of the evictions was inspired. HOWEVER, while she started out playing a very good game, she wound up blowing it when she continued to trash the evicted labrats. In a game such as this, you HAVE to remember that although they may not still be in the house, they are the ones who pick the winner, and you have to continue to play the game with that in mind. Dani did not do this....she either forget or simply did not realize that the evicted folks were STILL IN THE GAME, and once they left, she seemed to think they were completely out of the picture for good. By the time she realized that the winner was in the EHGs hands, it was too late....she had damaged her chances with her vitriol towards those who were gone. Everything she did after each HG left was just as important as what she did while they were still there, and she didn't take that into account. Dani cut her own throat in this game...I truly believe that if she had kept her mouth shut and wasn't so critical of the HGs after they were gone, she would have won.

The above statement is, of course, only my humble opinion.

Kathyb

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't know why people keep saying that Will told the houseguests he would lie to them. He said it repeatedly and gleefully in the Diary Room. If anyone in the future goes into the house and announces they're going to lie, I would guess they'd be one of the first to go. I think "trust" is a huge issue.

Battlestar

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
--Shapiro is the one who casts the show, and ture personalities come out in the house.....so it is unlikely you will have 12 carbon copies all being nice to each other.

If you tallied up the votes when the people were evicted, Danielle would have won. When the evictees saw how Danielle riduculed them (not just the DR entries) --she lost their votes.

You just can't become a trusted friend and then trash the person when they can't evict you---not if you want their vote in the end. All she had to do was to say NICE things about them (just once) and then forget about them til jury time and this game would have been hers

Mush

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:29 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Great topic!

I think that Dani's mistake was that she made sure that her chosen evictee was voted out by making this person hated by the other hgs -- and deserving of eviction as a 'bad person'. She did this by trashing the chosen evictee unfairly and mercilessly, and encouraging the others to join in. I'm amazed that she thinks that it was just the dr entries that did her in -- I think it was much more the behind-the-back trashing with the other hgs.

If she had just been sneaky and lied, that would be one thing. But she attacked these people personally behind their backs, which made them dislike her, and got others involved, which made them feel bad after they'd left and realized how they acted.

Fuddyduddy

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:29 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The main conclusion I draw is that some of the HGs did not do their research on this show.

Why in the world would anyone come in to a reality show like this, knowing the EHGs make the final vote, and NOT have watched many episodes. (I believe D said she had watched the tapes BB provided)

Jason knew what went on...he was a BB junkie! LOL They all seemed very interested when J was talking about 24/7 camera.....and still some believed certain things were not being filmed.

Roddy knew a little.....probably from what his friends told him (whoever it was that encouraged R to answer the call.....for him it was a last-minute thing, I think.

They need to watch the live feeds...it gives a truer picture than anything else, I think. And they need to watch the TV shows, tho there is so much editing done...but it does show you the DR entries.....any intelligent person could then decide if this is a reality program they want to join....

I truly believe many of the folks on this BB3 were there for exposure and fun only. I believe D went there for the sole purpose of winning big bucks...so it's a shame she didn't do her homework.

And I find it pitiful that as of this morning, she STILL says she would play the game the same. She just doesn't GET IT!!!! I hope someone will clue her in soon.

Wcv63

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 09:57 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I was disappointed with the outcome and thought all it showed was that the evicted houseguests although quite ready to forgive each other for supposed infractions were not equally willing to give Danielle that consideration because she was in the final two.

If anyone was still in denial it was Roddy who sat in the jury circle proclaiming his "niceness and integrity" right to the bitter end.

Spongebob

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I also found it odd when Danielle said she would play the game exactly the same (after she just got pummeled 9 – 1). I think those kind of comments have more to do with pride than anything else. Another thing “losers” (not meant in a bad way) often say is they KNEW they were going to be voted out or against. In this case, Dani supposedly knew she would lose 9 – 1. It almost seems like some sort of defense mechanism that kicks in with people who have a need for complete control. In other words, if they can’t control the outcome, at least they can pretend to have knowledge of the fact that it was coming.

Niceguy

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Strangely enough, MEGA said about the same thing when he was evicted.

MEGA was an example of ego run amok. Dani is nowhere that self-involved.

But she has her issues.

Minkster1973

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The entire time that Danielle was coaching Lisa, she was saying "Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut," so often it was nauseating. The problem is Danielle didn't practice what she preached.

I agree with everyone when they say that Danielle played the best game INSIDE the house. However, the big picture shows that you have to be successful in getting to know people inside the house AND stroke their egos outside the house.

Danielle's constant rantings about other houseguests was borderline slander. I dont' care what anyone thinks, if I would have been in that house and she said that horrible stuff about me, I would NEVER vote for her to get the money.

Not one person in that house had nice things to say about everyone.....everyone had negative opinions to interject. But acting like an angel to their faces and then laughing about how stupid they were for believing her behind their backs was atrocious!

I will say that new contestants for next year will have a hard time trusting each other because they will have all learned to play the game inside and outside. DR sessions will be boring and full of contestants sucking up to evicted houseguests. I imagine next time we will have more crying and boo-hooing over people that are no longer there.....just so they can get their votes. The winner of BB4 will be a future Oscar winning actor/actress. Mark my words!

Sbw

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
WCV... Tonya may have forgiven Marcellas on a personal level, but that still doesn't mean that she would have voted for Marcellas against any other HG. Gerry may have forgiven Josh, but that still doesn't mean he would have voted for Josh to win 500,000 if he were in the final two. That is the difference. And I suspect much of the 'forgiving' was for the cameras. :) They will be former BB HGs, not close friends, but I am an idiot and what do I know! :)

Lycanthrope

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Roddy was caught in more than one lie, and he is deluding himself by proclaiming to be without fault. However, he didn't partake in the personal bashing of other HG's like Dani did. She was just mean on personal level to just about everyone but Jason and Lisa. It really had nothing to do with the game when she trashed Tonya, Amy, Roddy, etc...And I think the EHG's realized that. You can be a double dealer in the game, and lie, etc., but when you get as personally cruel as she did, you won't win the $$$.

Wcv63

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 10:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Roddy called Dani an evil b!tch. I heard him with my own two ears.

Sbw...thanks for the smile...and I never thought you were an idiot...I was just doing your bidding. :O

Espen

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Interesting, in her CBS Chat, Dani just mentioned that Josh felt bad he didn't vote for her when they talked on the stairs.. Really makes me wonder if Eric and Roddy didn't pressure him to vote for Lisa.. Eric even admitted that he was going to work on that in his chat where Josh was on too (not sure where it was).. Things that make you go hmm.. Not that it would have made a difference in the end...

Cricket

Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The only conclusion I can draw from the way the final votes were cast is that Big Brother didn't do a good enough search for the right people. 3/4 of that house should never have even made it past the first interview, let alone get in without even trying.

They were just plastic, with a sheep mentality.