The conclusions we can draw from BB3's final vote.
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive FOUR: The conclusions we can draw from BB3's final vote.
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Moderator

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sheila, if memory serves right - when you made this post before it had to be moved off the board. Your post was offensive and removed again. Hopefully that will be the last time.
There are plenty of boards out there that allow that kind of crap - this is not one of them.

<b>

Woodpecke®

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks <b>. Nice job.

Monalisa

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran, I agree, I think had Dani and Marc been the final 2, the vote would have been closer. BUT, that would also be a case of a woman playing a masculine game and the male playing a feminine game (he played with his heart, so he said..lol)each cancelling the other out in that area. I don't know who would have won the game though...Dani's votes would have been for game play and Marc's would have been b/c he was targeted the first week and made it to the finals.

I still think that Dani's trashing was a main factor in getting her to the finals.

If I were mad at somebody for something they said about me, I would also be mad at the one's sitting there laughing at it. Both are guilty, IMO. So, I really don't get the "degree" thing. I understand what you are saying about it, but I think the majority of them are all at the same degree. It may be that they are upset because she hit the nail on the head....lol. I agreed with just about every assessment she made of the hg's. I do think they went too far regarding Gerry.

It's funny that you brought up John Rocker, I was thinking about my personal feelings of Randy Moss as I sat cheering as he dropped back to back TD passes tonight. I can't stand the guy and it goes back to before he played for the Vikings. I give him credit for his abilities, he is good, but I so love to see him screw up. The poor guy has cramps.....wonder how the female traffic cop is feeling?

Whit4you

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I can't think of one person - who was outside the house long enough to have a clue about all that Marc said and did...would have voted for him.

Monalisa

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Whit, all the votes were against Dani (except for Eric....and not sure what Josh did). So there were at least 7 votes that were votes "against Dani" and not "for Lisa." This is pretty much the consensus here. I think it is a reasonable assumption that at least a few of them would also vote "against Dani" if she were up against Marc or would even vote for Marc b/c he made it to the finals after having 1 foot out the door in the first week.

Note: You must consider the group we are working with here...lol.

Whit4you

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Mona - well I don't see it that way personally. If it had been Marc and Dani the votes with possibly an exception or two would have been votes AGAINST Marc...

Monalisa

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Whit, so basically this group just didn't have it in them to vote "for" anybody.....lol.

I hope the egos aren't as big in BB4.

Whit4you

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think if Jason had been in final to there would have been some votes FOR him...

Sheila494

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 10:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
i apologize..it was not my intention to offend anyone.

Rosa

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Don't you think if it had been Jason and Dani in the final that the vote would have been even worse? 10-0 Jason win?

Whit4you

Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Rosa - no I don't think that. Jason had a big hand in helping to evict people....

I don't think Eric would have voted for Jason - and I doubt that Marc would have, and doubt that Josh would have.

(just my 2 cents)

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, September 30, 2002 - 12:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"BUT, that would also be a case of a woman playing a masculine game and the male playing a feminine game (he played with his heart, so he said..lol)each cancelling the other out in that area. "

That could be an assumption made by some people...but ONLY to those who see people as "gender stereotypes", which there is absolutely NO evidence that the HG did. I understand that you have experienced that to a large degree, especially with your daughter's basball play....but I honestly believe that the HG were more sophisticated than that.

The ex HGs were not so traditional that they could not see past stereotypes, such as the idea that Dani's game play was not suitable for a woman. In fact, the MOST "traditional" HG there was probably Jason....the guy who lived his life by the traditional values of a generation ago! If ANYONE of those HG was going to view Dani as a woman not being feminine enough in her demeaner, I think it would have been the one with the most "traditional" values...Jason. But he is the ONLY person that actually voted FOR her.

The fact that I never saw ANY evidence at all of the HG looking at Dani in that stereotypical light, I would have to say that they simply were not doing so. In fact, when you think about it, the HG were fairly sophisticated in accepting each other in light of the fact that they were fairly diverse. They seemed to have no problem with Marce's homosexuality AT ALL....not the mothers in the house, not the macho straight alpha males in the house, and not even the devoutly religious Christian in the house. That in itself shows that the HGs were obviously NOT seeing one another as "stereotypes" to be discriminated against, but as "people".

Yes, Gerry did say that HE felt like he had picked on Marce because of his own latent racism and homophobia....but then Gerry was the oldest guy there, one that was raised in a much more racist and homophobic age. (And to Gerry's credit, he did come clean about *his own* prejudiced feelings when he tried to right his wrong by using the POV to save Marcellas.)

"If I were mad at somebody for something they said about me, I would also be mad at the one's sitting there laughing at it. Both are guilty, IMO. So, I really don't get the "degree" thing."

I don't see that as being *equally* guilty. Let me ask you a hypothetical question. What if one of the boys on your daughter's basball team had told all the others kids that your daughter was a really awful child to you, that she was a <insert string of vile invectives here>? What if one boy in particular started nasty rumors about her when she was not even around to defend herself? What if there was a contest and YOU had a vote? What if the contest was between two boys....the nasty boy that maligned your daughter and one of the boys that laughed when he made the remarks? If you HAD to vote for one of them....would you choose to reward the one that instigated the bashing of her, or would you vote for the kid who laughed? (Keep in mind that in this hypothetical contest, the rules say that you have the option to vote ANY way you want for ANY reason you want, just like in the BB game).

That's the matter of "degree" that I mean....one is definitley a higher degree of nastiness than the other.

I'll admit that I have had friends ridicule someone behind their back and done it in an entertaining way and I laughed in response. If it was truly hateful, I likely felt guilty for laughing....BUT that's a lot different than being the one actually perpetrating the bashing while not feeling guilty at all.

JMO

Monalisa

Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran, I don't think it is a blatant form of discrimination. I think it is something on a subconscious level. The evidence I am seeing comes from the fact that the hg's were forgiving of the men who did this (Josh, Marc, Roddy specifically). It appeared as though Chiara and Amy had made ammends, but we have seen the opposite when they are not facing each other. Amy and Chiara both think the treatment they received from Roddy is acceptable and still go giddy if he even acknowledges them. Women can take it from a man, but not a woman. Now, Roddy did give us insight as to how he views women, so we know there is a bit of a stereotype on his part, he wants total control of his woman.

Now, about your hypothetical.....NO FAIR...lol. Not a fair comparison, because you can say what you want about me, but don't dare say a word about my kids. I don't recall Dani saying anything about anybody's kids. Actually I have said if I were in the house, seeing what Dani was doing, I would have told her to make sure I was in the room when she did her impression of me, b/c I don't want to miss out on the laughs. I actually thought the majority of it was funny (as did the others). It should not have been a big shocker to them that she was talking about them too. I think it is "hypocritical" of them to laugh at her antics while they were there, then get out and pretend to be so offended by it.

Back to your hypothetical. And, let's make it a little more relative. One boy talking about my daughter, the other boy is laughing and keeps encouraging him to tell others. If the vote was for MVP, I would have to look at the whole game and vote for who I think contributed more to the game. I truly believe I could do that, and in an honest way. I could not vote for the person who sat on the bench the whole game and came out to play the final inning....even if they made a fantastic catch to end the game (this is assuming the other boy played a great game).

I know some people here are saying, "well of course she's going to say that," but I really could, and would do it. The reason I say I could honestly do it is b/c I hold the parents responsible...lol....kids will be kids. When I went to the coaches before, I went with stats. I said nothing about the way my daughter was treated. I was the one encouraging him to look at actual game play.

In your hypothetical, I would probably be more upset that it was 2 boys being considered and my daughter was being overlooked....lol. It would have nothing to do with their behavior.

Has there been any women to win BB or Survivor who had a "cutthroat" strategy? And I don't mean just be a part of an alliance either, but actually the strategizer.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, September 30, 2002 - 02:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
" The evidence I am seeing comes from the fact that the hg's were forgiving of the men who did this (Josh, Marc, Roddy specifically)."

Whoever said that the HG were not forgiving of Dani? Out of the three people that you mentioned, none of them were in the final 2. Yes they are all friendly since they were evicted, and it does appear that they have mended their fences. That does NOT mean that they would have voted for Marcellas (for example) to win if it had been Marcellas and Lisa in the final 2. Just because they have apparently forgiven Marce it doesn't mean that they would have given him the big bucks, too. The jury vote does NOT mean that they refuse to forgive Dani. Forgiving a person simply does not include handing them the 500K.

"Now, Roddy did give us insight as to how he views women, so we know there is a bit of a stereotype on his part, he wants total control of his woman. "

I do hope you are kidding....we all know that Roddy was goofing around when he said that. He also talked about "his wife" several times. He also started referring to certain people by a whistle rather than by name, just to mess with the internet feed watchers. I don't accept Roddy's joking around as proof of mysogeny or discrimination against women.

"I think it is "hypocritical" of them to laugh at her antics while they were there, then get out and pretend to be so offended by it. "

Being hypocritical about gossip does not equal being discriminatory against women.

"I don't recall Dani saying anything about anybody's kids."

My hypothetical was putting the *kids* in *Dani and Lisa's* shoes....not using it as an example to hint that Dani was trashing anyone's children.

"If the vote was for MVP, I would have to look at the whole game and vote for who I think contributed more to the game. "

BUT....BB was not a MVP contest...it was a contest that required the winner to somehow get to the final 2 (as BOTH Lisa and Dani did)...AND to retain enough respect from the ex HG to garner votes at the end.

So...change the hypothetical to a beauty pageant...the winner is judged on poise, looks, personality, congeniality and intelligence. If the two at the end were Asian and Hispanic, and if one of them had been more poised and graceful than the other, but had also been doing a lot of trash talking about the other contestants, then who would you vote for? If it was the Asian finalist who trash talked and subsequently lost....would that be coinsidered discrimination against Asians? I wouldn't think of it that way.

I understand that you see subtle discrimination against women everywhere, but I just didn't see it in the BB game. In fact....discrimination against gays is a LOT more prevelant and acceptable to most people (it's against the law for us to even marry, and many states do not protect us in job or housing discrimination...in fact, it is perfectly legal AND acceptable by many Americans to say, "You are fired because you are gay." or "I will not rent to you because you are gay.") but there was no evidence of that kind of discrimination (even subtle forms) either.

I guess I'll just have to end this by saying that we will have to agree to disagree. You are seeing subtle discrimination that I did not see at all. It just wasn't there.

JMO

Monalisa

Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 08:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran, ok, I'll agree to disagree, and I think I may have done a poor job at stating my point clear enough. One thing I wanted to clear up is this:


"I understand that you see subtle discrimination against women everywhere..."


This was definitely the impression I was NOT wanting to give. I truly am the farthest thing from a womens' rights activist. I think there are definitely jobs women are not suited for and should not have. I think it is absolutely fine for men to have their own golf clubs. I have traditional views of women. I own my own business that I run from home so that I can be the one raising my kids. I am guilty myself of the things I have stated. I cringe when I hear a woman cuss, b/c I don't think it's "lady-like." I think NOW is a bunch of lying, hypocritical women who dare to say they are the voice of all women.

Now, before I get totally bashed here, I do not think womens' voting rights should be banished. I don't think women should be barefoot and pregnant. I believe in equal rights, which I believe we have, I just think some activist groups have gone too far.

While I fought for my daughter to play on the boy's baseball team, I would not allow her to play on the football team (and she wanted to, and she probably would have kicked some butt there too). While my daughter could play baseball as well, if not better, than the boys, she was not allowed to behave like a boy (no spitting for her....lol). My daughter is allowed to have her ears pierced, but my son is not. My daughter can have long hair, but my son can not. While neither of my children "dip snuff," I would be much more upset if my daughter were to do it, and I would definitely forbid that.

So, yes, I am guilty of having these perceptions too. I think it is a normal perception. I just think that it may have been a factor in the voting and I'm not faulting them for it, just offering it as a possible factor. I just think it may be wise for future players to factor this in when deciding their strategy for game play. A woman may have a hard time winning if she plays a "cut-throat" strategy because of these perceptions.