Rebuttal To : Reality News Article Titled; Did The Best Player Win?
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive THREE : Rebuttal To : Reality News Article Titled; Did The Best Player Win?

Trulyscrumtious

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 11:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There are ongoing debates about whether Danielle was the best player and Lisa really deserved to win or if the voters were just a bunch of whiners. Charlie falls squarely on the side of those who say Danielle was not the best, and provides this rebuttal to Sting7’s earlier article on the subject.


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Told you so. After calling Survivor 3 almost perfectly, predicting Vecepia would be the last person in her tribe but not actually win the game or anything like that, the RNO staff and you, the readers, should take my words as the gospel truth.

In the end, Danielle's double dealing and high opinion of herself cost her five-hundred grand and the title of Big Brother 3 winner. But it's so much more then that, and Sting7's recent article only served to prove that a lot of people still don’t understand why Danielle lost.

But Dani's loss at the hands of a brutal nine to one jury vote should open potential reality contestants' eyes. It proves that having the perfect strategy is not enough. You have to be able to apply that strategy while winning your peers over and not pissing a majority of them off too badly. If your strategy doesn't include winning the popular vote in the end, you're doomed to fail.

The argument being used is that everyone who voted in the Big Brother finale were hypocrites at best for not respecting Dani and giving her the cash. That's just asinine. Dani shaped her fate with her wicked tongue and she got what she had coming to her. Dani did not lose because she played the game ovaries out (ha, I kill me), but because she couldn't keep her yap shut. The jury voters had an option. (1) Give the money to a nice person. (2) Give the money to a mean person. Why is it so wrong that they chose option #1?

Respect is earned, not given. Even if Dani's motivation was noble (providing for her family), her actions and the opinions she voiced for all to hear were certainly not. Lisa was certainly not without strategy. She chose not to bring Eric back into the house, acknowledging that it would be counter-productive to her winning the game. She escaped eviction twice, and was able to avoid the purple chairs for a majority of her stay in the house. She played the game just as hard as Dani did. She just wasn't as loud about it. Is that so wrong?

In games where a jury decides the ultimate fate, you start campaigning for your victory from the minute the game starts. You are asking people, "You lost or will lose because of me, and now I want you to admit that I did better then the other finalist." Whether or not she admits it, Lisa did this perfectly. She had nothing bad to say about anyone. Hell, she won the America's Choice chat session by announcing that she would say anything she wanted, and she still came out smelling like roses. Dani will spend the rest of her life pulling her foot out of her mouth and wondering what went wrong.

Dani failed to win the respect of those who left before her. Whether they voted against Danielle because they were bitter over losing or because they didn't respect her strategy is irrelevant. In those people's minds, Danielle had not earned their vote. She lost her votes in the boat challenge, where she made the deal with Lisa and denounced it five minutes later to her partner Jason. Up until that point, nine people left the house saying they wanted Danielle to win. Those nine people voted against her. She exposed herself with every tiny talk with Jason and every Diary Room confession to be mean spirited, rude, angry, and self-centered person.

Did the best player win? Of course. To say Danielle was the best player is to sound like you're in denial. The best player ALWAYS wins unless a dumbass sticks his head too close to a fire and gets his hands more fried then the pig he stuck with a spear, but that's besides the point.


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Not agreeing or disagreeing, just passing along the info... smiley

Woodpecke®

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 11:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Nothing new here. Same stuff we already said here. We have the best reporting here on this discussion board. I can name 50 posters who did it better than this writer. Additionally, this article is loaded with half-truths and outright lies.

[You are asking people, "You lost or will lose because of me, and now I want you to admit that I did better then the other finalist." Whether or not she admits it, Lisa did this perfectly. She had nothing bad to say about anyone.] (Lisa had plenty to say about many of them, she just didn't say it as loudly as Danielle).

[She lost her votes in the boat challenge, where she made the deal with Lisa and denounced it five minutes later to her partner Jason.] (She lost no votes from the boat challenge, she would have been a loser in this game regardless of the outcome of that challenge).

[Dani will spend the rest of her life pulling her foot out of her mouth and wondering what went wrong.] (Danielle has already said she would change nothing about her strategy, and she also stated that she would do the same thing again if she had the chance).

[The best player ALWAYS wins unless a dumbass sticks his head too close to a fire and gets his hands more fried then the pig he stuck with a spear, but that's besides the point.] (This statement is colorful, but it doesn't fit any analogy to the strategy of this game).

There are other examples, but I just wanted to illustrate my point quickly and coherently. Many of the people commenting on this game on both sides lack original thought and deeper thinking.

Cricket

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Great post, Woodpecker. You got the facts right.

Mystery

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree that people here have argued persuasively both ways. But I don't believe that the statement "Dani will spend the rest of her life pulling her foot out of her mouth and wondering what went wrong" is wrong just because "Danielle has already said she would change nothing about her strategy, and she also stated that she would do the same thing again if she had the chance." I'm not postive that Danielle really believed that when she said it, and even if she did, I don't believe that she will continue to feel that way for the rest of her life.

YMMV of course.

Woodpecke®

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Dani will spend the rest of her life pulling her foot out of her mouth and wondering what went wrong". I could have said that Danielle is selfish in real life, and her actions in the Big Brother house showed just how self centered and cruel her personality is. You choose.

Trulyscrumtious

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wood - After seeing that the original article by Sting7 had been posted here, I thought some people might like to read the rebuttal. That's it, that's all. I'm sorry if it bothers you, I can assure you, that was not my intention.

As I said, I'm keeping my opinion on it (and Dani) to myself. I've seen way too many *heated discussions* when it comes to Dani to give my opinion on anything that has to do with her around here, lol.

monkes

Woodpecke®

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I am glad you posted it. We are commenting on a show that ten million people tune in to watch 3 times a week. My comments were about the lack of style and substance shown by the writer of this article. Facts missing and opinions easily dismissed. Thank you Truly.

Trulyscrumtious

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
No problem Wood...I just wanted to make sure you (and anyone who reads it) knew that I was just passing the article on, no hidden agendas. smiley

I fully expected people to be upset with the piece, and just wanted to make sure no one here thinks I'm agreeing with everything the guys says...in fact, I think he is way off base and I'm not even a Dani fan, lol.

I will say a couple of things though, I completly agree with you on the lack of 'style and substance' comment that's for sure.

And don't even get me started on the pig analogy, lol.

wave

Oregonfire

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 12:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wasn't the pig anology about the guy in Survivor Outback, (Michael?), who fell asleep next to the campfire and massively burned his hand? He had to be rushed to medical attention and booted off the show. He was the frontrunner to win before that happened, so in that case, according to the writer, the "best person" did not win that Survivor because he got hurt and was removed early in the game. I think he was also the one who killed a pig with a spear, so that's the tie tin.

Like the article, by the way. Thanks for posting it.

Trulyscrumtious

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 01:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ohhhhh...I think I heard something about that. It didn't click cause I stopped watching after they ousted Kel over beef jerky. I didn't believe (and still don't) that he had any, and the whole thing left me not wanting to ever have to lay eyes on any of their mugs again.

I never watched another episode. Until the next season that is, lol.

PS...Wasn't there a guy who leaned over into the fire pit and passed out too?

Itsallgood

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 01:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Great article and he hit the nail on the head. But of course we already knew that now didn't we!! Ty for posting it Truly. ;-)

Mlt

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 03:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have a different perspective to suggest for why Dani didn't win. I'm not sure this is the place to post it, but... What the heck. I'm not sure I even believe this, and I'm certainly not suggesting she should have done this (especially since I was chearing for Lisa <g>). I'm just trying to look at this from a different perspective.

I’ve been thinking about Danielle’s strategy and I think there was a fatal flaw in it - it wasn’t flexible enough. Think about it. Forming that secret alliance with Jason was brilliant. Then letting Marc think he had a deal with Danielle and bringing in Lisa as their third behind Marc’s back was also brilliant. I think those moves got Danielle into the final two.

But Danielle wasn’t thinking end game. She was thinking final two. Too short sighted in my opinion. In the diary room she kept saying: ‘Five down, five to go.’ She never said, or thought, in terms of ‘Five down, six to go.’ She was setting herself up to win $50,000.00.

Now, she had to know that she was ticking off all the other house guests. But that’s okay. It is a game after all. The problem, in my opinion, wasn’t her diary room sessions, or that she was betraying everyone. It was that she wasn’t flexible. Let me explain.

When Roddy left, Danielle controlled that house. I dare say that everyone of those people would have taken her to the final two. Now, I know you shouldn’t count your chickens before they hatch, but at that point, she should have changed her strategy. Had she truly wanted to win, she should have looked at the house at that point and said, ‘I can get everyone of these people to take me to the final two. So who can I win against?’ And so what if she stabs Lisa and Jason in the back? What’s two more? (Besides, it’s my guess that even if she had stabbed Jason in the back, he’d have forgiven her and probably voted for her because, other than that, she never said anything mean about Jason. Even Lisa might have understood for the same reasons.)

Since Jason was head of household the week after Roddy left, Dani could have made some comment about Lisa that would convince him that she had to go and then gotten rid of her the way they got rid of Marc. Instead, she got rid of Marc, who, like Dani, had made enemies. Then, the next week when Jason was weak, Dani could have gotten rid of him. Final three: Dani, Marc and Amy. Now, I’m not saying Dani would have won at that point. But she would have at least had a chance.

Did Dani play the best game from a strategic point of view? I’m not sure she did. She wasn’t flexible enough to get rid of her two strongest threats. At one point, even Amy suggested that if she was Danielle, she would have nominated Jason - after all, Jason was Dani’s biggest threat.

So did Dani really lose for ethical reasons? I don’t know. What I do know was that if she’d just been a little more unethical, she could have possibly won it all. (Not that I’m saying she should have. Just that it is one of the things about Dani I really don’t understand. Why betray all those people and then be loyal to the two people who she knew could beat her with both hands tied behind their backs?)

Just another point of view.

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Did the best player win the game?

What did the majority of those players said who played this game the best?

Go figure if they voted for the best player of the game. Guys enough is enough, Lisa's team won the championship but Danielle is truly the best player of the game.

Enough said.

Whit4you

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'd rather win 500,000 then be concidered the 'best player' ... but to each their own LOL.

Woodpecke®

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL @ Adrian. Nice try, but we aren't buying it. The polls are closed.

Onlyhuman

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Mlt...you nailed it.

How can you be the best player if your strategy is set up to play for 2nd place?

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"I'd rather win 500,000 then be concidered the 'best player' ... but to each their own LOL. "

LOL :)

I'd rather win 50K than orchestrate a losers campaign so that other player will win the $500K other than the person who outplayed and outwitted me. Scandalous! :)

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"How can you be the best player if your strategy is set up to play for 2nd place?"

How come Tim Duncan (of San Antonio Spurs) won the MVP of the 2001-2002 NBA when his team did not even make the Final 2 (Lakers vs. Nets) ?

One word. SCANDALOUS! :)

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"LOL @ Adrian. Nice try, but we aren't buying it. The polls are closed."

Well, as you err we all know, a lot of people in the media are giving the post-season Best Player of the Game Award to Danielle instead of giving it to the actual winner of the game. OUCH!

Danielle is getting a lot of media mileage and free press!

SCANDALOUS! :)

Bmh

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
sigh..do i have to answer this question again??

NO the the best player did not win..that played this game full tilt,never lost sight of her goal,spoke honestly and emotionally in the DR..wasn't fake like someone else's entries were,hid a secret alliance for 11 weeks brillantly,managed to avoid ever gettin nominated,strategized/lied/manipulated to get farther in the game, not to mention protecting her closer ally like her own kid..minus her bashing and gossiping..we got ourselves the best BB player ever

YES the "good person" won even though the MAJORITY of the time she was there she was either frollicking around with the girls, hooking up with Eric in bed,sick with a bump on her butt and a broken toe, or just disappearing for a while..as everybody continued playing..and then she reappeared in time for the final 3..to claim the game for doing basically nothing except joining a couple of alliances as a non-entity and evicting Jason

Alegria

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
There are lots of things about Dani I don't respect and think luck had a lot to do with her making it to the end. She has taken a lot more credit than is merited for the fact that she made it to the end. Two people had to! It was not her DRs that did her in but who she was in the house 24/7. Most of her meanness was not strategic but just because she got off on putting people down. She was loyal to Jason because any IDIOT would be. How smart would it have been to betray a person of his calibre? She did plant plenty of seeds near the end about how unbeatable he would be in the final two (fill in the blanks people, the message being sent was 'Jason has to go and ____ has to do it for me").

Just because someone is prompted to repeat a countdown by the producers in order to create some dramatic continuity does not mean she was worthy of getting there. I think the producers helped her stay in the house because she was good tv and they may have helped determine the final votes by the things they asked & told the ETV. Dani got what she deserved.

Lisa played a much better game considering she had to evict people, survive a strong alliance where Roddy was looking to protect Eric and not her and LISA knew that. While she cared about Eric, Lisa was in the house to play the game and I think she realized that the moon-spoon-June stuff was messing with any chances of developing a decent strategy. Lisa came out of the house with a lot more money and friends than she went in with and Dani left with a decent amount of cash and a stupendous friend named Jason. One thing - Dani's constant referral to Jason as 'He's mah boy' really wore thin. She was like a broken record in the way she repeated so many things which led me to start thinking that she had no new ideas and did not have the capacity to creatively strategize beyond a certain point and that is why she lost. Dani was better entertainment and Lisa was the better player.

Avrey258

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Adrian,
Agreed. LOL! It's almost as if Danielle won with the amount of media attention she has received. Everyone wants to talk to Danielle. She was the best player, not to mention the most interesting. Sometimes when you lose, you win.

Whit4you

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hint Adrian.. both of them outplayed and outwitted the 'losers' - :)

My only point here - I'm sure the Amy fans feel she played the best game.. the Jason fans feel he played the best game... and so on... far as I'm concerned - I think winning 500 grand would be my goal in the game not being classified as the best player.

I don't really know why Dani orchastrated the champaign to give the other player the 500 g's... but that was her choice not mine.. if I'd been in her shoes I would have taken Amy or Marc... and then perhaps I'd be called the Winner.. not the Best player.......or maybe I'd be called the winner AND the best player and be 500 grand richer.. that'd work :)

I think the best player... wouldn't have taken Lisa to the finals... but would have taken Dani.. Marc or Amy... ya know?

Onlyhuman

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree Whit.

BTW, I liked Amy the best but in no way did I think she played the best game. I just enjoyed her as a person.

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
double post ... you know what, S... :)

Adrian

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 06:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Agreed. LOL! It's almost as if Danielle won with the amount of media attention she has received. Everyone wants to talk to Danielle. She was the best player, not to mention the most interesting. Sometimes when you lose, you win. "

I never seen or thought that a second placer of a reality game will get that many publicity, accolades and post-season awards of "Best Player of The Game". The aftermath is getting SCANDALOUS and SCANDALOUS. LOL :) j/k

Realityaddict

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I do think the best player won. Lisa was smart to keep her eyes open and her mouth shut. She saved her best moves for the competitions that meant the most to her in the game. She stepped up and showed how competitive she could be. I don't understand why others think Danielle was the best player when she just manipulated others to do the dirty work. Look where that scenario got her.

Tresbien

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 07:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The thing about Dani getting second place is that she did not earn it but was given it by Lisa, who considered her a more beatable player than Jason. Dani talked a big game about how tough she was and that she could win any endurance competition, etc., but when push came to shove she lost. She couldn't win the second part of the final HOH competition either. And perhaps her most foolish error was choosing Lisa over Amy for the final three when she was in the power seat. Had she done that, it's highly possible that Amy could have won the final HOH and would have chosen Dani for second place as she still admired her at that time. I don't think there would have been any chance of Amy, the one who got a second chance to play, being chosen as the winner and Dani would have had the big prize. She thanked Lisa for giving her second place, and I think that was the single most honest thing she did in 83 days.

Trulyscrumtious

Friday, September 27, 2002 - 09:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay, what's with all these 'Rebuttal To' threads popping up now...lol.

feelingstupid