Archive through September 22, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive TWO: If Dani were a guy: Archive through September 22, 2002

Crossfire

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hmmm. Your post Eden makes me wonder...you say, and I quote:

"I certainly don't think Lisa would be given the undeserved credit and support she is receiving if Danielle were a man."

I wonder if Lisa would be given the undeserved credit and support if SHE(Lisa) were a man? Or worse yet, an unattractive man. I highly doubt it.

Barefootdyke

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Dani is the female version of Roddy. I didn't like the way either of them "played the game".

What555456

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am going to add another wrinkle to this --one many of you do not like and I will probably get blasted for.

I think Dani is being judged by a female standard, not a male standard. Not sure there is much we can do about it--it is very ingrained in the culture. She acted out of context for a woman and a mother.

But I also wonder if some of the animosity for her is because she is black -- and inherently many people, probably without realizing it, are not comfortable with blacks being so skilled.

You throw in three major cultural issues -- 1) She is a woman and women do not fight this hard and this dirty; 2)She is a mother and mothers should be more nurturing and 3) she is a black who has been unwilling to stay in "her place" -- and one has a basis for some pretty strong instinctual reactions without us even realizing it.

Wcv63

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ack What555. I'm willing to debate points 1 and 2 but point number 3 is way too inflammatory.

I agree with points 1 and 2 but as a white woman who has been totally supportive of Dani I can't see how ethnicity or "strong instinctual reactions" has any bearing on this game or our perceptions. I only have myself as a frame of reference but I don't think saying that people are subtly or even unconsciously racist is productive.

What555456

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wcv -- I know it is controversial and I thought before I posted it. Maybe I should not have in this forum.

But I do not think we can say it is not a factor -- at least with some people, and maybe more people than we may know. I think there are some good people who have racist tendencies ingrained so deeply they do not even see it. When one breaks a stereotype, it is often hard for people to not keep going back to the stereotype.

And I am not so sure it is any worse to be misogynistic than it is to be racist. Aren't they really the same thing -- just aimed at different categories of people?

(BTW, Wcv, I am a white male and have been supporting Dani since the beginning! So, I've got you beat in terms of opposite demographics from her! LOL!!!)

Toolhound

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I do not think race has anything to do with this game and have to wonder why anyone would bring it up.

Wcv63

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay What...I'll give you the demographics...you won it fair and square.

I'm not sure saying that different standards for different genders is actually saying that misgynism is at work because those perceptions of gender roles are held by both genders IMO. It's more of a societal norm based on many years of gender identification.

As for race...you could attribute that to society as well but the subject matter being discussed by two white people who have only our life experiences to draw from doesn't truly represent the issue.

The subject is just so controversial and for some reason I feel like I am not qualified nor knowledgable enough to discuss it past my own beliefs.

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If Dani were a guy:

I'd probably get thrown out for punching him in the nose!

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Shannon nearly did, remember?

Llkoolaid

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
What, I agree with 1 and 2. Number 3 has been in the back of my mind for a while now, but I certainly didn't have the nerve to express it. You are very brave concidering that some of the posters here are so anti Dani. I don't think most of the non- Danielle supporters are guilty of No. 3 but I think some are. I don't understand the strong negative feelings some posters have of her, considering they are accusing her of doing things that most of all the hgs have done.

Anyway What555456, I am going to support your post, and take some of the heat for the flaming that you are sure to get.

Hermione69

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think for most of the board members, gender (and, I hope, race) doesn't have anything to do with it. I don't get that at all from reading people's posts. For the HGs, however, I do have to admit that I can see Roddy, and possibly Gerry, having their egos hurt a bit by losing to a woman. And I am saying this as someone who liked both Roddy and Gerry! If there is a higher level of expection of behavior for Dani, I actually think Dani created that level of expectation herself by putting so much emphasis on her being a mother and a Christian. I believe if she hadn't talked that up so much about herself, people wouldn't have looked at her behavior and measured in against how they felt a mother and a Christian should act. I think she tried to use the fact that she is a mother and a Christian to her strategic advantage by playing it up so much, and it ended up hurting her. I don't think this would have happened if she hadn't tried to milk it, so to speak.

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
For fear of looking like a bigot so many well-meaning white people have excused behavior that they wouldn't put up with from a white guy.

How so many can equate Will's skullduggery with Danielle's open badgering and bullying is beyond my feeble attempts to understand.

Costacat

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The color of her skin has nothing to do with anything. The fact that she constantly has said "I'm a mother" and "I birthed two babies" has a lot more. If you are gonna claim you are a GOOD mother, then you should actually show some proof of that during the game. I saw none.

I don't think she is being held to any impossibly high standard because she is not male. I never liked her, not from the beginning. I still don't. I also didn't like Josh from the beginning.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: MY OPINION is that Danielle's character is not as pristine and "loving" as she thinks. MY OPINION is that she too easily took joy in badmouthing and imitating other HGs. If she was not like this, to some degree, in real life, why was it so easy for her to do so? Even when there were only four in the house, she continued to mimic and badmouth (so the herd mentality does NOT apply here).

I am glad that a woman will win BB (for a change). I am VERY glad that that woman will most likely NOT be Danielle.

What555456

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok, let me make myself very clear. I do NOT think that people who are anti-Dani are against her because she is black. I have read nothing on here which would indicate that there are any racist views being expressed. So please, do not get me wrong here.

I raise it more because I think we all have been affected by stereotypes more than we really know. The same issues can be raised about people's stereotypes of Southerners with their instinctual reaction to Amy and Jason, as well as people's reaction to some of what Jason did because of stereotypical views of fundamentalist Christians.

We are all affected by this inbred views of what people in a certain group are like. I guess my question is not whether people are racist in their views, but whether some of the reaction to Dani comes from the fact she is black, even if we do not realize we feel that way.

(I agree, Wcv -- two white people talking about the Black experience is somewhat ludicrous. However, white people talking about the possibility that they may not be as open minded as they may think they are is a valid discussion for them.)

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thank you Costacat.

Wcv63

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hermione...interesting that saying she is a mother and a Christian would be seen as a strategy when in fact she IS a mother and a Christian. They are a part of her (a very important part) being. To say that by admitting her devotion to her family and her religion is milking it is once again placing others expectations on how a woman who is a mother and a Christian should act.

In playing this game she acted agressively and contrary to what some may consider feminine or Christian behavior. I'm placing every action within the context of the artificial environs of the contest and the house and also consider the fact that she has been examined under a microscope over the last 80 days.

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm remembering Justin attempting to bully Kent. Kent wasn't having it and got in his face about it. That was the downward spiral highpoint that compelled the CBS suits to get involved and throw Justin

OUT!!

Avrey258

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:34 am EditMoveDeleteIP
You're right Jaysgal, there are alot of female Danielle haters. Not me, but women are much tougher on other women. Its always been that way. Especially tough on strong women.

I guess this intimidates some women. Can't really understand this. It only holds us back. Alot of women aren't use to seeing other women use strategy and strength. They still see it as a negative.

Hermione69

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:34 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wcv, certainly being a mother and a Christian is part of her because that is what she is. I'm not saying she's not. My point was that she herself talked about that part of her identity so much that she herself created the standards people measured her by.

My interpretation of the topic is whether Dani is held to a different standard solely because she is a woman. I don't find that to be the case. I think that we measured her by the standards she created for herself.

Onlyhuman

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The fact that Danielle is a woman has EVERYTHING to do with her situation, but not in the way that you mean.

Because Danielle is a woman, she was able to bond with Lori as a mother AND use it as an excuse for not voting to evict her. It's also why Lori will judge Danielle from this vantage point, because it is their connection.

Because Danielle is a woman and a mother, she voted Tonya out based on her fitness as a mother. Tonya will take this into account.

Because Danielle, as a woman, formed a maternal relationship with Amy, Amy will judge her on this basis.

Because Danielle and Gerry talked about their roles as parents, Gerry will think about this in relation to the things Danielle said about him.

Because Danielle bonded with Chiara & Lisa over their shared gender, Chiara will think about this when she goes to make her vote.

Because Danielle has repeatedly put herself out there to all of the HGs as a hard working mother who played the game with integrity, all of the HGs will use this as a standard to judge her.

Danielle repeatedly used her gender in the house (and even her race with Marcellas) to form relationships, to build bonds and to gain trust. She stayed in the house and was never nominated not because of her lying but because of her relationships with others.

She will now be judged based on those relationships.

Hermione69

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Just to make my feelings about Dani a little clearer because I admire her a lot and realize I could come across as anti-Dani... my brother and I talked about this yesterday afternoon-- how we are both impressed with Dani being where she is. My heavens, she got herself all the way to the final two and was never nominated. That's awesome strategy! I don't think her strategy is what people are upset about!!

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If relationships are bridges then Danielle's are made of match sticks.

Kathyb

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't think people are always aware of their own personal subconscious biases.

Maris

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I find it so amusing that if one is critical of Dani subtle messages are posted of suggesting bias, possible prejudice, etc. Why isnt it within the realm of possibilities that some people consider her behavior ugly, over the line and not meritting the grand prize and some people just plain didnt like the person called Dani.

Speaking personally, I could care less what her sex, race or orientation is, she doesnt deserve to win. I also didnt want Gerry, Roddy, Chiara, Tonya, or Marcellas to win. I didn't like them pure and simple. tThat was my overt bias, didnt like them period.

Amac

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
You could apply the race question to Marcellas--did any of us dislike him because he's black? Or because he's gay? I recall one thread asking whether Marc was a good gay role model. Other than that, the topics of HG's race, sexual preference and religion were absent both from the show and this board, as they should have been.