Archive through September 23, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive TWO: If Dani were a guy: Archive through September 23, 2002

Onlyhuman

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
kathyb...the funny thing is, when I was posting things that I didn't like about Roddy, I was a bitter, man-hating woman, according to some people.

Now, it's being suggested that because I don't agree with everything Danielle does, I am judging her based on some ridiculously high standard that only women are held to.

Evidently, not only am I not aware of my biases, but other people are.

Hermione69

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good posts, Onlyhuman. You seem to say what I want to say, only better!

Gina8642

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Marcellas was a guy and people got upset at him when he trashed people behind their backs.

Groucho

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I actually think I like Dani *more* because she's black. It's nice to see an intelligent, strong-willed, mature black woman do well on a reality TV show. And not only do well, but practically dominate the game. I sometimes cringe when they dig up losers who only seem to reinforce negative stereotypes -- whether it's Will Mega from BB1 or Clarence and Sean from Survivor, or Brandon from Survivor as the bitchy backstabbing queen, even Marc the "fabulous gay man" and Amy the "southern belle" from this year to some extent, etc. Dani's not at all like that.

Dani's arguably the best black reality show contestant ever. (Yes, I know Vecepia won Survivor, but I think Dani's been more of a player.) Like her or not, I think she's represented her race quite well. You may not have liked Richard Hatch, but if nothing else he showed that a gay man can play a strong game and do well.

Csnog

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I also think Danie is judged differenty as a woman. We could also say the same thing about Lisa.

If Lisa was a man would she deserve to win?
Would we be calling her a wimp?

The only thing I didn't approve about Dannies play was lying about other HG's deeds (eg: Amy exposing herself, demeaning Tonya for her boobs and motherhood)

This to me was not part of the game and a cheap shot. That kind of talk turned us and the HG's against Josh and he is a male. Dannie didn't learn from that. She also didn't remember to keep her eyes open and her mouth shut. If she had she would have walked away with the money.

I found it interesting that HG's were worried more about keeping their word" and less about telling lies ABOUT the HG's.

Oregonfire

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think what some people may not like are strong personalities and aggressive playing, or some types of aggressive playing. Some toes are inevitably going to get stepped on in the process of aggressive game play. Only Dr. Will from last year was able to avoid this pitfall, which is pretty amazing. No one else has even been on his level. I guess he did play the "I'm not a threat" card pretty heavily though.

I'm not sure about the racist theory. Everyone seems to have liked Cassie and Monica from BB1 and BB2, but they were "under the radar" and did not play aggressively. They were very guarded. Frankly, I was glad that Danielle shared more of herself with us, the viewers, and I liked her better for it. Will Mega from BB1 pushed the race issues in others' faces, and nobody liked that. Making other folks uncomfortable about race is a way to rile the HGs and a quick ticket out of the game. Gerry did the same thing, but somehow was eventually forgiven. His true sin was having nasty feet, which leads to my next comment.

I think other biases are at work here too. I never got past the impression that some folks would excuse anything that Amy did because they liked staring at a mass of blonde hair and a cute face. There is a strong beauty bias both inside the house and ouside the game. Good looking people get away with more. I've tried to fit Chiara into this theory, because she was good looking but universally hated, and I think it has to do with the fact that she was very open with her sexuality and it made a lot of people uncomfortable.

Thanks for introducing this topic. I think it's an interesting one.

Missy2

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Dani played a great game and I think she deserves to win. The problem is that she played everyone in the house, and they are all too emotional to realize that is how the game played out. - oh well - at least no matter she will walk away with $50k not bad for 3 months time. If she doesn't win I would have to say the evicted guests are bunch of cry babies - :) hehe

Secretsmile

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hmm...

If Dani were a man...would she have been able to win the confidence of the other women in the house?

If Lisa were a man...would she still be there after a broken toe, hiding under the covers for weeks, and having shingles?

but... on the other hand...

If Roddy were a woman...wouldn't his charm be considered fake?

If Jason were a woman...wouldn't his shyness and clean-cut lifestyle be considered adorable?

I only did a few of the HG's and I have no intention bashing a HG so I hope it's not taken in that way.

I guess I'm just trying to point out that in my opinion the genders are NOT viewed the same, but they that doesn't mean they aren't equal. When all is said and done.

Jaysgal

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh my! Once again, you pulled it through, Only Human. LOL! Thanks for eloquently stating your position and helping others like myself. :D

Okay, let's try to answer this question by hypothesising: Suppose Jason had made the move to persuade Marcellas to use the GPOV; and suppose he told Marcellas everything that Danielle was up to, without telling Marcellas of Jason's intent. And then suppose he told Lisa that she was guaranteed to stay provided she was willing to vote to evict Danielle, instead of Amy (or Marcellas).

And then suppose Marcellas learning of Danielle's plots decided to use GPOV. Jason then put up Danielle in place of Marcellas (or Amy if Marcellas decided to use it to save Amy). Say, Marcellas or Lisa ("or" is used exclusively) decided to pull a tie. Jason then voted to evict Danielle.

This was the scenario I had proposed for Jason to redeem himself at that time. I prayed that he would do so, but apparently he never did. The point of the hypothetical situation was to reach a likely response that the Danielle defenders would have given and those who are arguing that it is a gender bias that makes people dislike Danielle or the idea of her winning the money.

So, based on the hypothetical situation, it would seem that Jason would be seen in a different light, as a backstabber and disloyal person. And guess what? Within the house, it would have won him a position in the final three. Marcellas and Lisa would be anxious to hug him to the final two. The next target would have been Amy. The final three would have been Marcellas, Lisa and Jason most likely. Or in case Amy managed to win HOH, it would have been Amy, Marcellas and Jason most likely.

And at that point, Jason would have been at a huge advantage because no one would view him as the saint anymore; they would have perceived his action as warranting a deprivation of the first prize.

What would have been the external response? People like myself would have praised Jason as having grown a spine. Some of us would have defended that move and said that he had a case against Danielle and every reason to doubt her loyalty, as some defended Danielle's decision to stab Marcellas.

But ultimately, majority arguing gender bias here would have viewed Jason's action as evil, unwarranted and wished he would not win the game. The responses would have been similar to the responses we are getting about Danielle's conduct. We (meaning majority) would forecasted Jason's position as second place. We would read his behaviour as acting based on the foreseeable; and we would have argued that Danielle's actions had not warranted that because she had not outrightly betrayed him. The pro-Danielle people, most of whom are arguing the gender bias, would have argued that her plan to stab Marcellas was because she cared about Jason a lot and was looking in Jason's interest.

Basically, Jason for the most part would have received immense criticsm and been the next focus as the most despised houseguest. And of course he would have had his defenders, just as Danielle has hers.

I think that this theoretical situation answers the question of gender, unless you would take an oath that as much as you defended Danielle, you would have defended Jason's action if it was against Danielle.

Max

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Don't kid yourself. There were LOTS of folks who didn't like Will last year and who made no bones about it.

There were LOTS of folks who trashed Roddy and Josh on a regular basis this year.

Every season and every stage of the game results in polarization of opinions. Human nature seems to need identification of a "good guy" and a "bad guy" in any given situation, especially a game like this that can only have one winner.

Yes, I think women can be harsher when judging other women and that probably plays here (I believe most posters on this board are female, although I don't have statistics to prove it). But I also think that when only two people are left in the house, one automatically becomes "more loved" than the other.

Penpoint

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Onlyhuman, your post above ("Because Danielle is a woman . . .") is right on the mark. She found areas of common ground with other HGs, and selectively used her gender, race, religion, and role as a parent to her advantage. Nothing wrong with that! Too bad she couldn't have stopped there instead of continuing behind their backs and after their evictions to show a total lack of respect for almost all of the other HGs.

Niceguy

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If Danielle were a man he'd be pretty spineless(like Jason)never to risk going up on the block.

Where's the intestinal fortitude?

Wcv63

Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 02:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Finding areas of common ground based on your life experience are only to be expected. As a woman Dani had those experiences to draw from.

This "lack of respect" issue is the one that seems to be the sticking point for most. I can assure you that had I been on the receiving end of this treatment I would most certainly be hurt and probably couldn't help but take it personally. But I don't think it sets Dani in a different catagory than the other houseguests who also participated. Dani keeps being brought up as "worst offender". Matter of opinion I guess. Like a large family in cramped quarters they all got on each others nerves. Some more than others.

I know women are held to different standards than their male counterparts. This is not conjecture. This is something I've seen, experienced, witnessed and discussed many times before.

Niceguy

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 08:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Again, in plain language, where's the guts to go up on the block like Will did?

Dani didn't have them.

Wcv63

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 08:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Niceguy...what do you mean the guts to go on the block? What should she have done? Campaigned to get herself nominated? That's just silly.

What555456

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 08:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Niceguy Taking unneeded risks is not a masculine trait. Nothing could be more male dominated than war, and any general will tell you a good part of a strategy is to minimize risks.

Wcv, I understand fully what you are saying and I agree that in society the standards for men and women are different. Whether it works in favor of men or women depends on the situation. In positions of direct power, these standards usually favor men. However, in areas were nurturing and intuitiveness are needed, these standards often favor women.

In terms of this show, I think there is some negative reaction to Dani because she is a strong, powerful woman. Not by everyone who does not like her; but by some. It is the same reservoir of discomfort with such powerful women that caused some people to have instinctively disliked Hillary Clinton before she began to take strong stands which by their nature were going to create supporters and detractors.

Hell, I know people today who still will admit they do not like Hilary Clinton because she is not "lady-like."

Niceguy

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Nobody campaigns to go on the block.

My point is that Dani brown nosed so much to avoid being nominated. False deals all around.(Yeah, yeah it's within the rules). Its also within the rules that the jury sees how they were betrayed and denigrated.

Hence second place.

Niceguy

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Since when isn't taking unneeded risks not a masculine trait?

Ever heard of NASA?
Wright Brothers?
Harold Lloyd?
Jackie Chan?
Johhny Knoxville?

Wcv63

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Niceguy, I don't know if you're serious or if you're just looking for yet another reason to dislike Dani. In case you're serious I'll say this, part of the game (a big part) is to avoid being nominated so that you remain in the house in order to win the big money. This involves strategizing, deal making and campaigning "against" others. It was done by ALL of the houseguests and has no bearing on Dani's "guts" or lack thereof. As a matter of fact, it just demonstrates how magnificently she played the game.

What I agree with you. Hillary is probably a good example to illustrate your point. One of the things she was most criticised about was staying with Bill after his repeated infidelities in order to retain some illusion of power.

Wiseolowl

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I was rooting for Danni and Jason et al 2/3 of the way through this game .- they were the underdogs. I'm a male and saw Roddy as the biggest , most unlikeable threat - because mainly of his manipulation of the female HGs. Danielle's diary entries in particular always bothered me but overlooked them for the greater good. But as time went on and the more she went over the top - just couldn't take it anymore -it has nothing to do with sex.

Maris

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
She threatened people to avoid being nominated. Remember her in the kitchen saying to a group, "don't nominate me, you dont want to see an Angry black woman" Marcellas was laughing. I think he was HOH. She told Jason you better not nominate me, dont do that.

She made sure from every HOH that she was not going to be nominated. Amy who was nominated so many times did not put pressure on any HOH including Marcellas not to nominate her.

Will on the other hand, almost taunted people. When he was nominated he would laugh. Water off his back. That was not Dani. She was no Will.

Katlady53

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I worked with a male attorney for ten years. The similarities between he and Danielle are mindboggling. I recognized them almost immediately. He was the most disliked person in our office. At least four employees left the firm and gave him as the reason. He could be the most charming fella in the world when he wanted someone to like him, but we all learned not to trust him. His dark side included backstabbing, lying and instigating...all for the sake of money. Everyone was relieved when he went to another firm in March. No lawyer jokes, please. :)

Niceguy

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have enough reasons to dislike Dani, I'm just spotlighting them I suppose for the sake of this thread.

Niceguy

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Katlady, I'm assuming you wouldn't assign a positive adjective to this male lawyer, would you?

Cliotheleo

Monday, September 23, 2002 - 09:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Dani's gender has nothing to do with my opinion of her. I think she played the game PHENOMINALLY and I give her all the credit in the world for getting to where she is.

But she can be so mean! And I started to dislike that character trait about the same time I started to disklike it in Marci, who, last I checked, is a man.