Archive through September 29, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Archive FOUR:
The conclusions we can draw from BB3's final vote.:
Archive through September 29, 2002
Sanfranjoshfan | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 12:48 pm     Yes I was rooting for Jason...although I'll admit I got bored with him towards the end and I think he has a lot of growing to do. "Again, I am not saying they voted against her because of her gender, but rather how a person of her gender behaved." I guess I don't really understand what you mean. I suppose I don't look at a woman with any preconceived notions of the way a woman "should" behave....the same with men. I see how they behave and then make my evaluations accordingly. A "mean woman" is simply a "mean human being" , and her gender not a part of the equation. I suppose some people do....some folks always see the stereotype first and the person second, if at all. Maybe some saw Dani as behaving totally outside their preconceived notions of what a "proper" woman "should" be (demure and submissive). I see that as simple stereotyping. That's one of the reason I had issues with CBS's choices of Bunky and Marcellas as "the gay ones" (in their two seasons that had gay HGs). They were both flamboyant stereotypes...think of the "Jack McFarland factor" (from Will & Grace)....and they were entertaining, although they were most certainly NOT indicative of gayfolk in general, not by ANY means. I actually know a LOT more gay men that are like Jason, Josh, Roddy, Gerry, Eric, Hardy, Will, etc... than I do that act like Bunky or Marcellas. Isn't it true that people that judge Dani on "how her gender behaved" are simply evaluting the behavior of an individual woman based on the actions of a stereotype of how a woman is "supposed" to behave? I don't think people do that nearly as often as they did a generation ago....especially the younger generation of today. I believe that most of the HGs (although immature) were sophisticated enough to not view one another as stereotypes...which is why I believe they voted against Dani for reasons *other* than her not fulfilling a traditional, stereotypical role of a non aggressive, submissive woman. JMO |
Monalisa | Saturday, September 28, 2002 - 04:05 pm     Sanfran, thank you for discussing this through with me. I truly mean that. I appreciate that you didn't just throw out a snide remark and completely dismiss it (no, I'm not saying you normally do that). I think this is something which is subconsciously done. What I mean by the way a person of her gender behaved is..........for example, if a man aggressively does his job and moves up the ladder, he is applauded for it.... where a woman is accused of sleeping with the boss and/or is a , um, not so nice person. Both used the same tactics, but is perceived differently by others. Women perceive it this way simply b/c they like to talk about other women and she has "crossed to the other side" (lol), men do b/c they don't like to be beaten by a woman. There are lots of examples I could use here. I think this may explain why what Dani did was so "different" from what the others did. I am not saying that this is true of everybody, but I think it is for the majority. I did not really follow past BB and Survivor episodes, so I don't know if it holds true for those, but I would be interested. Can somebody help here? I do know about both Will and Richard Hatch. I would consider it true in both of those cases, as well as with Tina. What about others? Have there been women who played a "calculated" game and won, or men who played "nice" and won? My daughter played on the boy's baseball team for years (she was too good to play with the girls...lol). The girls didn't like her then b/c she wasn't viewed as a "girly-girl" (even though she really is) and the boys resented her b/c she was better than they were (1st baseman and clean-up batter). She would always ask me why the parents didn't cheer for her like they did for the boys, I told her she must be doing something right. Even though she was playing, and playing well, others did not appreciate her. I heard all the comments made. I seen the boys move in when she was up to bat (lol, she just knocked it over the fence). One time a pitcher said "easy out," he was reprimanded by the ump, she told the ump "he won't say it again," she hit a line drive and the pitcher went out of the game. She worked for years to earn their respect, but never could. When it came time to presenting awards, she was overlooked....even though she had the best batting average and the most homeruns, not to mention her fielding abilities. It wasn't until she switched to the girl's softball team that she finally got the recognition she deserved. Go figure. So, is it right, no. Does it exist, you betcha. Let me add, I am not crying "foul" b/c Dani was discriminated against. Before, I was saying Dani should have won hands down, now I'm thinking she may have played the wrong game considering she is a woman, perhaps her game plan was flawed afterall. I don't know, maybe something future players should consider. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:12 am     I understand what you are saying, but I honestly don't believe that Dani was discriminated against by the ex HG when they cast their votes because she played "too aggressively for a woman". In your story of your daughter's sports talents being minimized because she was a girl who was "one-upping" the boys in the game and not getting the same accolades as the boys...well, I can certainly see that happening. However, if she had exhibited the same kind of behavior that Dani did....such as calling the other players truly hateful names, saying that they were "bad sons" to their parents and just generally being overtly nasty about all those other players, then that would be another matter, wouldn't it? I mean...in a case like that, you couldn't really say that the other players and parents didn't appreciate your daughter because her gender and sports talents didn't fit their stereotypes, could you? In that case, it could have been that they didn't like her because of her meaness. Now, please do NOT get me wrong here...I am sure that your daughter is a sweet girl...and it sounds like she is a strong girl and has a lot of confidence, which is GREAT! I do NOT think that she was mean or anything like that at all. I was just using that as an example to try and make the comparison to Dani more fair. Comparing a "nice girl" with talents to a hurtful woman (that needlessly hurt the feelings of others) with talents just isn't really a fair comparison. If a man had ended up in the final 2 in BB next to a woman and if the man had been a good strategic player, but at the same time had been calling evicted HGs "MF-ing 'roostersuckers' and "bad mothers", I believe the man would have lost just as easily as Dani did. That is just not behavior that is acceptable for men OR women. Dani's actual game playing was fine....she was a woman that played a great cutthroat and ruthless game....but that's not why she lost. The other HGs voted against her because she trashed them on a personal level on the internet and national television. That is what hurt them and her gender had nothing to do with it. I didn't see any evidence that the HGs looked at her behavior as being "unfit for a lady" and used that perception to vote against her. What I saw suggested that they saw it as being simply "unfit for anyone" and chose to not reward it with a half million bucks. JMO |
Alegria | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 05:01 am     When I was watching BB3 there were a few things I was thinking about. There was then entertaiment factor, who was the most fun/interesting to watch There was the strategy factor and how well they played the others There was the identification factor, who drew me towards them or repelled me, based on their behavior and what I could learn on a personal level The control issue is interesting because I think that the players that most wanted to control the outcome had the biggest defeats. For one thing, it is impossible to control even one other person, let alone eleven. As far as the entertainment factor is concerned I think that the producers were watching that angle closely and working to steer the show in the direction that would gain the highest ratings. It is interesting to see some hg's selected did NOT have a strategic bone in their bodies (Tonya, Lori, Marc). Even though Jason and Lisa were more boring to watch I thought they were interesting players and had excellent people managing skills. Danielle missed a lot because she was so focussed on herself. Dani lost the game from the beginning by not grasping that in order to win she needed as many EHG votes as possible. To later say that she expected them all to vote on 'strategy' and not on who she was in the house is DUMB because 'who she was in the house' WAS her strategy. Lisa was verrry boring and had some irritating mannerisms (the baby voice) but she was a careful listener and a quick learner. But so boring. Jason was my favorite but he was extremely boring on the feeds and the weeks that he was HOH were slow. But on a personal level everyone wanted to keep him around. He was a pleasure to spend time with, not a draining presence and if a person was going to lose to anyone, Jason would be the best pick. No one could beat him but also noone would mind losing to him either. His disastrous performance in the last HOH really made his exit acceptable, he really blew it and if he had stayed and Dani left it would have been undeserving. I would have enjoyed seeing Jason & Dani on their own for a few days to see their relationship without others. I think they would have had a blast. On a personal level, here are some conclusions I learned from the final vote: *wash my hands after every visit to the washroom *don't drink much when in a situation where people may be watching and judging *be honest but hold my cards close to my chest *don't be perceived as a threat (people who try and project how smart/cunning they are will be perceived as a threat) *don't do anyone else's dirty work *accept defeat with grace and as much good humor as possible *let bygones be bygones asap. Act forgiving of transgressions and that will build trust. Never hold a grudge for more than 5 minutes. *do not make unkind remarks about other people. Everything you say about a person will have some affect on their reputation and their moms (or kids) may be watching *never tell anyone why I need the reward, it turns into whining or a sense of entitlement *when focussing on details never lose sight of the bigger picture *whenever I feel like trying too hard it is time to take a break *remember that in a group situation I am in shared space and behave accordingly *never expect another person to put my self-interest ahead of their own *look out for others *have fun and keep that sense of humor *don't snog with strangers |
Scarlett | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:33 am     Wow....so many posts that I do not agree with. Where to begin. First of all, Will was nothing like Dani. It was not that Will was the loveable cad and Dani was a female "". It was that Will let us in on the joke as he saw it, in his DR sessions. We finally saw his scheme, and that made his antics more palatible. Dani, on the other hand, THOUGHT she was funny. I never found mocking others the least bit funny. But her bashing was constant, on a more personal level, and she never felt contrition over it. I think that is why she lost. As for paying for a date......the person who invites is supposed to pay for a date. Being someone who would have never asked a guy out, that meant that I never paid nor expected to. If I had asked a man out, I certainly would expect to pay. Lastly, Chess.....My grandfather never let me win. I thank him for that. When I finally beat him, I knew it was a real victory. I never let my son win. He earned his victories. After the game I would point out where his mistakes were, but I would not throw a game for anybody, even a newbie. You do not get better because people are babying you. You get better QUICKER by watching good game play. |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:48 am     If you want to see Will in action, check out the old episode of BB 2 that is still available. You can view it in its entirety, Episode 28: http://www.cbs.com/primetime/bigbrother2/. Danielle and Will have little in common. |
Adrian | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 07:35 am     It's not Danielle and Will have little in common. Lisa and Nicole have little in common. BB2 evicted HGs are way way above and beyond have shown class and sportsmanship playing the game inside and outside the house. The BB3 HGs would have voted anyone against Danielle for hypocritical reasons. |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:05 am     No Adrian. Danielle and Will have little or nothing in common. They voted against Danielle because she was vicious to people. I am sorry you don't see this, and you are entitled to your opinion. The majority of viewers have spoken. They didn't care for her tactics, and none of the players appreciated her strategy enough to give her a vote. There was no conspiracy, no plotting, no intense hatred of Danielle. She lost the game because she was mean. You give her credit for her ability to play the game tough. Most of us wanted her to be more of a diplomat. |
Adrian | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:49 am     Wood, that's MHO only. But think hard about this, the evicted HGs would have voted the more vicious Marcellas than Danielle, if it goes down between the two in the Final 2. They won't admit it that they (especially Roddy) are angry and felt snookered by Danielle's tactics and the Jason and Danielle's aliance. Danielle's biggest mistake is her unnecessary & evil DR entries "but Danielle was always crystal clear about her role and motivations--and she stuck with them all the way to the end." |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 08:57 am     You think they are angry about the alliance? Besides Marcellas, I see no vindictive comments or actions directed at Jason. Marcellas is a petty person with personality issues that none of us could hope to solve. It is all Danielle. Danielle did this to herself. I repeat. Danielle and Will have NOTHING in common. Her true colors began to show after a month and got worse up until the end. |
Adrian | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:00 am     You should read Roddy's post interviews with the media (or during his chats with BB3 viewers). Upon learning Danielle and Jason have a secret alliance, Roddy no longer wanted Jason to win. I am not saying majority of them are angry with Jason as they are with Danielle. But most of them felt snookered by their alliance. And the way the evicted HGs reasoned out with the way they voted, Jason would have lose badly to Lisa for that reason alone. |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 09:10 am     Snookered=Sour Grapes. Labeling it any other way is simply ridiculous. Roddy would have done it had he thought of it first. |
Monalisa | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:45 am     Sanfran, my daughter is the sweetest, kindest kid I have ever seen. But, had she been "wicked" then I may have assumed that was the reason she wasn't accepted by other players, their parents and the coaches (note that I said ASSUMED). But, since she is so sweet, and always plays with a smile (not a smirk) on her face, I know the REAL reason for their behavior. She did not play like a girl, plain and simple, and they resented her for that. Now, if my daughter was mean, and all the boys were also mean, then would I be accurate in calling them "hypocrites" if they say she is not worthy because of her behavior? How about if the parent of the meanest boy on the team refused to sit next to me because my daughter was mean? See, I was trying to come up with a reason for their vote that would excuse them from being hypocrites. I don't know how they could forgive and love Marc yet be so angry at Dani. Every hg either did their own trashing or really enjoyed it when others did. Just as a side note about my daughter's baseball experience. I would go to the meetings when the teams were picked and even though the coaches were sitting there with all the stats in front of them, my daughter would always be among the last picks, she still to this day does not know that. You would think the coaches would try to pick the best players to have a winning team, I guess that only applied to male players. She finally started getting awards after I kept my own stat records and would meet with the coach before the awards were given (letting them know that I was aware of who truly earned the awards). My daughter still does not know I did that. I will only tell my daughter what I did if she is ever in the same position. She rightfully earned those awards, and I don't want her to think it was just b/c I said something. |
Ginger1218 | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 11:50 am     Adrian, I do not believe Dani's mistake was in her DR entries. I think her mistake was to constantly trash and bash people to the other HGs long after they were gone. She (and she was not the only one) was just way over the top. I believe her DR entries would have been forgiven as being pulled out by the BB staff, but the stuff she kept going on and on about long after someone was gone to the other HGs just did her in. It was mean and unnecessary. It was not part of the game. They were gone, why continue to verbally abuse them? Also, the people she did that to were people who really liked her, because she came across as really maternal and nurturing and then as soon as their backs were turned, she was vicious. They felt that this was an extreme betrayal. |
Victoriafla | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:30 pm     Thanks for the link Woodpecker! I ejoyed watching Will again!  |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:41 pm     Monalisa - I think it's great that your daughter was so strong and persevered in her sports and accomplished so much. I guess the difference in our views is that you said: "See, I was trying to come up with a reason for their vote that would excuse them from being hypocrites. I don't know how they could forgive and love Marc yet be so angry at Dani. Every hg either did their own trashing or really enjoyed it when others did." I would have to say that strictly speaking, many of the HGs were hypocrites. They said bad things about others and Dani said bad things about the others. I think it was a matter of degree, though. Yeah, they all made remarks at one time or another, but the truth is....both Dani and Marce had the title as "Worst Hateful Trash Talker of HG After They Were Evicted" pretty much locked up. I don't remember Roddy or Eric or Tonya or Jason or Lisa or Gerry continuing to *consistently* bash the EX HGs, day after day, AFTER they left the house. That was inexcusable and hateful and unneeded. Dani was there a couple of weeks longer than Marcellas, so we were treated to hours and hours of more nastiness by Dani. There were fewer people in the house, the cameras were on Dani a lot more and yet she never relented in her cruel remarks about the ex HGs....until maybe the last day when she slowed down out of what appeared to me to be pure exhaustion. She got the same amount of camera time as Jason or Lisa at the end, but she used her camera time to bash a lot more than they did. The thing is, Marcellas was her only equal when it came to behind the back judgemental (and personal) trashing of the other HGs. Even if ALL the other HGs said something mean or unkind....Dani and Marcellas were the absolute worst at it. (Even Amy said she realized how bad it was to trash the others and tried to stop, even apologizing for her rude nickname for Chiara). Dani never admitted that she made (non strategic) personal remarks that hurt the HGs feelings. Had Dani and Marcellas been the last two, I doubt seriously if it would have been a 9-1 vote against Dani. It would have been a close race, since it would have been a vote between "mean and meaner" rather than what it was....a vote between "nice and mean". (Yeah, I'll certainly concede that Lisa said some unkind things....but it simply wasn't on the scale of Dani's consistent bashing. IMHO) On a side note about your daughter....it's great that you fought for her and pointed out those stats that had to make the coaches look at her record more objectively. There are still too many people in the world that judge others because of old, out-dated stereotypes. I just don't think BB was a case of that. One last point...your sports analogy reminded of that guy (John?) Rocker....the ball player that made a bunch of racist and homophobic remarks. The fans really turned against him and booed him on the field and many were calling for him to be fired. The thing is....his remarks had absolutely NOTHING to do with his game play...it was the hateful remarks he made off the field that were so hurtful to many people and that's why so many folks felt resentful....they felt denigrated by someone that was a national role model (successful ball player) using his noteriety to verbally bash them. They (we) were members of society that deserved the same respect as anyone else. That made it personal. My bottom line here is that I believe that Dani's remarks were, taken as a whole, far meaner than any other HG and that's why she lost 9-1. (But like I said, had Marcellas stayed, it would have been a tight race...although if Dani had won in that case, I would not be blaming the anti-gay discrimination in this counrty for it....I'd put the responsibility right on Marcellas's hateful trash talking where it belongs) JMO |
Tobor7 | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 12:59 pm     Good stuff SanFran! |
Cricket | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 02:58 pm     I have to agree with Adrian. Doesn't anyone see that it doesn't matter WHAT Danielle said or did. That was just an excuse to not vote for her and pretend they had a mind of their own. No matter who was sitting up there, those Dolly sheep clones would have come up with some excuse to use their mob mentality. |
Mystery | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:00 pm     "Doesn't anyone see that it doesn't matter WHAT Danielle said or did." No, I don't see that. That's your opinion. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:14 pm     "Doesn't anyone see that it doesn't matter WHAT Danielle said or did." Why would that not matter? Looks to me that what Dani did (as witnessed by the entire world...including the ex HGs after eviction...via the internet and national television) was the actual *evidence* of her unneeded HG bashing....that's the evidence that the jury used to make up their minds. Discounting that evidence in it's entirety and substituting assumptions of the jury's motives doesn't really make sense to me. JMO |
Cricket | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:23 pm     Sorry guys, what I meant to say was it wouldn't have made a difference if it was Amy or any other houseguest up there against who the 'gang' decided they liked. They would have grouped together to pick the 'bad' person apart. Just my opinion. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 03:47 pm     "They would have grouped together to pick the 'bad' person apart. " They DID (mostly) all vote against Dani but it appeared that they did so for individual personal reasons and I believe that was because Dani made it personal by bashing them on a personal level. Josh was the only HG that did not seem to have voted his conscience, though.....all the rest seemed quite sure of who they had decided to vote for (or against, as the case may be)...with many of them stating, upon their immediate exit from the house (before there was time for a lot of intense lobbying efforts by anyone), that they were going to vote against Dani. I know that Marce and Roddy both said that to Julie and Amy made the same statement the night she was evicted, after viewing 10 episodes. There's ONE THIRD of the votes against Dani right there...all decided within seconds or hours of them walking out the front door of the house. Makes ya wonder, though....how would it have turned out with Marcellas and Dani at the end? I can't imagine that the 10 evictees would have all voted the same. JMO |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:06 pm     Marcellas and Dani would have been a very tough call. He probably would have refused the money and then expected Danielle to give it to him later. Or something equally as strange. He has a good heart, you know. Ugh! |
Woodpecke® | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:09 pm     Glad you enjoyed it, Victoria. I watched it again last night and had forgotten how funny that final scenario actually was. |
Cindyluvsroddy | Sunday, September 29, 2002 - 06:35 pm     conclusions: If you are an agressive player - no matter how skilled you are at "playing" others ... You must cautious in the DR room and any other conversations that you may partake in that trashes other HG's .... failure to do so will result in losing votes from the jury .. if thats fair or not - it is simply the truth! |
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