Archive through July 14, 2002
The ClubHouse: General Discussion Archives: Archive Three:
The Women:
Archive through July 14, 2002
Hunter | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 06:19 am     Oregonfire Looks like I fall under your category of ...Harshly Judgemental. You use judgmental twice. Terms like...ganging up..Jezebell...slapping labels on. Is'nt calling someone judgmental without considering the whole context of what they say...JUDGEMENTAL. Sure...women have been using sex as a tool since Eve. I have no trouble with that. Sex is a beautiful thing. Mindless behavior is what I called it. Mindless.. because there is no thought given to the feelings of women who have been the victims of the kind of abuse some of these housguests are being subjected to. Speaking only for myself. I was outraged that BB would allow acts which I consider demeaning and abusive to women to go unchallenged. Butt biting and slapping. Women being asked to sit on some guys face. I am a police officer and have arrested guys for this kind of behavior. The legal term is sexual imposition. In the workplace I have seen men fired for...sexually suggestive talk. Its called sexual harassment. Do feminist find this acceptable. I love women...the basic premise of the show...and last but not least...the pleasure of exchanging opinions with intelligent, interesting people like you. You have my respect.....Friendly smile Call me what you like. I'll trade judgemental for..outraged. |
Cousin_Jake | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 07:02 am     I would call both Josh's and Chiara's behaviour harassment. Chiara toward Jason and Josh toward several of the women.They seem to be creating a "We're cool and you're not" environment and mocking those, such as Amy, who don't wish to participate in such behaviour. I wish the others in the house would band together and boot these people. I also don't know why Josh and Chiara haven't received a penalty nomination from BB yet. I've watched the live feeds all three years and I find myself getting enraged by this group more than I ever thought possible! Time to walk away and walk the dogs I guess. |
Catbowl | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 07:36 am     OK...putting myself out on a limb here. I think Chiara is bi. She did the shower scene with Tonya and likes to sleep with Lisa. She also likes to flirt with the guys. Either she is bi or she is doing one hell of a sexual power trip with just about everybody. Haven't seen that much sexual flip flop in a long time. I am betting that if anybody has sex in the house it will be her. I am betting it will be soon too...like withen the next two weeks they way she is going. As for who? Well, its anybodys guess. Could be guy or gal. Looks like AS has got his T&A. |
Keiffer | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 07:51 am     Last night Tonya, Lisa, Dan, and Chi were in the HoH talking about their limits in what they would do, and Chi made it very clear she would not have sex on camera. That playing around, and flirting were ok with her, but doing more would not happen. Lets remember for all her talk she has not actually gotten naked in front of the group yet. In previous BB's both Mike from BB2, and Josh from BB1 got naked at different moments. In another thread of "best live feed moments not on tv", the naked trampoline from Josh in BB1 was listed early. Why is alright for a guy to actually do something, and woman that talks about it is a tramp? Come on, do we really want three months of discussions about politics, religion, children and divorce.... or do we want some sex stuff included in that, and if we do how do we get it without people being called tramps? |
Yuhuru | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 07:56 am     Chiara seems to be kind of "caught up" in her "sleazy" behavior. She's not really savvy, which leads me to believe that she's not really exerting any kind of power. Powerful isn't sleazy or trashy or cheap like she seems to be. I'm having a hard time expressing this...help. I wish this was a strategy to win the game, but I don't seem to think it is. Is she playing to the other HGs or the internet. I'm confused and I think she is too. |
Catbowl | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 07:59 am     Well...I didn't call her a tramp...lol...called her bi! And maybe thats where her confusion comes from. Man...she is gonna be one piece of work to analyze. |
What555456 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:04 am     This all reminds me of the old story. A man asks a woman if she will sleep with him for $1,000,000. She thinks about it and finally says yes. He then asks if she will sleep with him for $100. She gets indignant. "What kind of a woman do you think I am?!!" He says "We have already figued that out. Now we are just haggling over the price." Feminism or no feminism, this is true of most of the women I know. If the price is high enough, they will sell themselves. May not be for money, may be something else. Often for marriage with a man they do not love that much or simply a man who will given them children. But they will sell themselves. Watch the pre-teen and early teen girls. They practice it daily and are egged on by such celebrities as Brittany Spears and all the teen magazines. It is the way girls are raised in this society. It just appears that the price the women on BB3 are willing to settle for is a couple of extra weeks on TV. |
Jadeygurl39 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:14 am     I don't think a woman has to be a "feminist" to be outraged with the way these women behave. I guess coming from a man sort of "torks" me because unless you are a woman can you really say you know what it feels like. It isn't passing judgement as Oregon was pointing out some of her ideas. I agree with some of what Oregon said and Hunter said. I do like the controversy. Jade P.S. Many police officers are sensitive to sexual harrassment, etc...but education is KEY. We have a long way to go and in my opinion WE (women) are hindering ourselves...I don't blame men. I blame the female species. LOL...funny but true. |
Bbwatcher | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:15 am     What55... - Hope you realize that you were just generalizing: "Watch the pre-teen and early teen girls. They practice it daily and are egged on by such celebrities as Brittany Spears and all the teen magazines. It is the way girls are raised in this society." There are many girls being brought up with morals and a sense of self-respect that will prevent them from EVER acting like some of the BB3 women. My daughter is one year away from teenager-dom and she already knows that SOME of her friends are following in the "brittany spears" footsteps - but SHE AIN'T ONE OF THEM. So I don't think we should say whatever these BB3 women do is OK cause society made them that way. Individuals have a responsibility for their behavior. My 12 year old knows that - Chiara, Tonya, and Lisa - have decided for themselves. |
Bbwatcher | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:23 am     And, btw, my daughter happens to be very popular and physically very beautiful - but she has a personal and private respect for herself that keeps her from needing to "fall in line". Some of her "morality" (for lack of a better word) may be the result of her Christian belief - but her church experiences have been somewhat limited and certainly not overwhelming. I say that to clarify that I don't believe she feels like she "must" be moral - its just who she is. Does that make sense? I hope. And yes, I am grateful for every day that goes by that she still seems so well grounded. I'm very proud and happy for her. I'm hoping she's going to make much better decisions in her life than I sometimes did. |
Jadeygurl39 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:40 am     Isn't it ironic that the people ok with "generalizing" women and pre-teens and teens are male? It urks me but I keep reminding myself this is a place for each person male or female to express his or her own feelings. Though I may not agree with each of you I have to respect your ideas expressed. It doesn't mean I condone what you say but I want to feel free with sharing my thoughts and hope you will do the same. BTW, NSYNC, Backstreet Boys, etc...I'd say they are selling themselves in a provocative manner to appeal to females...Hmmmmm... Jade  |
Ginger | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:01 am     What a great discussion. I agree with much of what's been said--even though many of the views are opposing ones. Sex and sexuality and gender are such complicated issues in our culture. I wanted to add something that I feel has not been addressed in the course of this discussion: I do not so much feel offended or outraged by the various actions of the HGs as I do about the overwhelmingly superficial ways that we see bodies--especially the female body represented on these reality shows. Each year BB has become progressively more obsessed with the perfect body. Anyone notice that ALL the women this time around are sveldt enough to wear bikinis on national television? It's like it's a requirement for the job. This, despite the fact that the average American woman is a size 14-16. We and the houseguests get so messed up in our thinking that we think people like Lori and Danielle are not "pretty." That Autumn of last year's BB was fat. This demented, shallow, non-realistic view of beauty is far, far more disturbing to me than the actions of the women showering and stripping for the men or any number of other things we've seen on the live feeds over the years (though I think this behavior is related to what I am talking about). I know that some people are of the mind that the contestants should be eye candy for the TV viewers, but I am not one of them. It's the human interaction that draws me in. I'd be more drawn in by a wider range of people--a range that included average looking folks with average looking bodies and a nice solid sense of humor about the beauty of imperfection. |
Merlin | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:35 am     Jadeygirl said..Isn't it ironic that the people ok with "generalizing" women and pre-teens and teens are male? Jade, after I calmed down when I read this comment by you, I had to laugh. Isnt your comment a generalization on its own? |
Alegria | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:40 am     How can these women think playing in the shower in front of the guys was a good move? Were they drinking beforehand?! That bit of fun could really backfire. For one thing, reading about it here I can't help wondering "how dumb is that??". Who can blame the guys for sitting to watch the show? I think that most of the time being in the house is pretty boring and that can induce the hg's to engage in some pretty infantile behavior. They get involved is some pretty nasty playground stuff. That can also happen in an environment where a group of people spend too much time together and lose their perspective. Didn't last year's group getinto they hottub hijinx pretty quickly too? The smart ones won't lose their dignity and embarass the audience (and their spouses, hahaha). Imagine the people in their lives, their parents, their CHILDREN watching those antics. wow. |
Kat | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:40 am     I guess the question is whether there is a difference in marketing yourself as a talented entertainer in as attractive a manner as possible and slathering yourself up with shaving cream then flashing yourself to a bunch of drooling men in a bathroom. I think there is a difference. But if Enrique Iglesias lathers himself up with shaving cream on on HBO, someone please let me know!!!!!!!!!!! |
Alegria | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:45 am     It is also different depending on who the audience is. They are putting on the show for guys they barely know and for untold thousands watching on the internet. Amy was smart to walk away. |
Moondance | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 09:45 am     Welcome back Ginger!!! I have missed you and your GREAT insight! |
Foodbunny | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:09 am     Like I said before, I think real feminism is support a woman's ability to make choices. That means that if they don't feel like Josh's behavior is sexual harassment then it isn't. That means that if they want to have a dumb fling in the shower for the entertainment of the guys then that's ok. My only beef is the way they treated Amy. She has her right to make choices too and they should respect that. I don't feel that they did and that's what lowers my opinion of them so much. I've got nothing against nudity or sexuality whether you keep it private or show the whole world via the internet. It's all about respect... respect for oneself in knowing your personal limitations and holding to them and respect for others when they choose not to follow in your footsteps. If one of them has a major breakdown in a few weeks and bawls about how they shouldn't have done teh shower scene then my respect will go down because they allowed themself to do something they didn't want to. Until then I withhold judgement of the action itself and focus entirely only how they treated the person who didn't want to participate. |
Maris | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:14 am     Food I understandwhere you are coming from but if you are the mother of three daughters, I dont think you should be doing this for them to see. I do not consider myself a prude but as this was happening I was just thinking well at least school is out and those poor kids dont have to go into school the next day. If you ask me whose behavior was worse, it was Tonya. Chiara had a choice and in my view I think she debased herself but it was only herself. What she did wouldnt affect others but when you have children there is also a responsibility that comes with it. I wonder whether Tonya will be so accepting if she comes home from work one day to find her teenage daughter in the shower with a boyfriend. Its all about setting an example and giving your children a moral compass. |
What555456 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:15 am     "Isn't it ironic that the people ok with 'generalizing' women and pre-teens and teens are male?" Keep in mind, all of this activity by these females is meant to get a reaction out of the male of the species. How the male reacts is very important. Do not dismiss what we have to say -- because we are the audience women and their daughters are aiming at. You may not like what we say, but it is important that women know how we are reacting to what we see all around us. And it IS all around us. |
Lostinthefog | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:26 am     Foodbunny, I love your posts, probably because I agree 100% with what you are saying. Try not to let this compliment go to your head (just kidding) |
Alegria | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:33 am     Foodbunny has a good perspective. BUT their behavior does set a precedent in the house (the same way a parent's attitudes/actions do for the children who will model them). There is a definite sleaze factor to whipping cream bikini's put on before an internet audience. Somehow, it seems as though the women are exploiting themselves which (I guess) can be a feminist action. If it were between consenting adults in the privacy of their home - why not?! But these people have no idea who is watching, that alone should make them more careful. If they never have regrets, then - no problem. If there are consequences they later regret having to deal with - too late! |
Jadeygurl39 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:41 am     The reason why I like TVCH is because I feel comfortable in expressing my views and thoughts. I am not claiming right or wrong. I have the right to comment on your opinions as well as you have the right to comment on mine. So, please calm down. It is a game. I enjoy our interactions. These hampsters are doing something right because I am not as bored as I was a couple days ago. And they are stimulating our emotions which is a good thing...I think. LOL... Jade  |
Oregonfire | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 10:59 am     What--I have no problem with your opinion--it's actually been shown that women look for "a stable provider" first and foremost, almost a biological thing. In my view the smartest woman holds out for the hightest bidder . Then I hope you understand my point of view when say that most men I observe are lying cheaters. I mean, I'm just putting it out there, right? So men of the world realize that we are on to you. |
Car54 | Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 11:16 am     <car runs for cover> |
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