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Archive through September 23, 2007

The TVClubHouse: Survivor ARCHIVES: Survivor XV - China: General Discussions: ** SHOW: 9/20 Episode **: ARCHIVES: Archive through September 23, 2007 users admin

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Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 8:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Actually, wasn't it Paul, one of the first Christians, and upon whose writings much of Christian belief is based, who argued that it was up to him to become what others needed? To eat meat, or to not, as the situation called for, in order to provide a better model for Christ? Paul understood that these acts themselves were meaningless, it was what was in one's heart that mattered. He understood that the rituals were not what made someone a Christian.

And Christ, who spat on the rituals of his own traditions by flying in their face?

It's just my opinion, but I believe both of these men, founders of Christianity, and upon whom Christianity is based, would have walked into the temple, and shared their rituals and their meals and warmly embraced these people who were warmly embracing them.

It surprises me that sometimes those like Leslie who profess to have such a strong relationship with Christ, seem to me to have such a limited understanding of its inherent message of love and acceptance of others.

Cndeariso
Member

06-28-2004

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 9:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cndeariso a private message Print Post    
karunna, i think that is the best post i've ever read that has been written by you. bravo!

Konamouse
Member

07-16-2001

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Konamouse a private message Print Post    
konashark & I thought Chicken may have handed Jeff some piece of jewelery he didn't want to get damaged or lost. I doubt any of the contestants had any lighters or other contraband on their personas at that point (the production team being so strick about it).


Chy
Member

07-19-2003

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chy a private message Print Post    
Wait a minute!!! I hate to repeat myself again and again, but that's not true, Trini.

Trini! Christianity is NOT forbidden in China. Buddhism is NOT the religion of CHINA!! The last time this was true was in the Seventh Century!

I am a Chinese Catholic, but I was born & raised in Taiwan, so I don't really have all the dates and numbers for you. But religious freedom is pretty much restored in China these days. The dark days when Red Guards burned Churches & temples, mocking Buddhist Monks and Nuns to the point of forcing them to merry each other are gone! In those Culture Revolution days, not only did Mao's disciples persecuted Christians(mostly deemed them spies for the Western Empiricism), they especially "laughed at" the Buddhism, Taoism plus Confucism for dumbing down Chinese people! Scriptures of all religions were burned; Temples & Churches of all religions were knocked down, burned out or put into other uses.

Not today any more! They've opened up gradually since the Eighties. I remember collecting Bibles to be sent there in the late Eighties, early Nineties. We were told not to write anything in them, not to send anything but parts from the Good Book. Anything more will have been scrutinized for political "ideas". Last few years I remember watching teary-eyed when CNN will show us snips of Chinese priests officiating Christmas Eve's Mass in BeiJing/NanJing!!

No, Trini, Christianity is NOT forbidden in China!

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
how did we get from dissing Leslie because she left the ceremony to condemning her for having "such a limited understanding of its inherent message of love and acceptance of others."? We don't know this woman, nor do we know if that is how she acts. She has NOT shown this. In fact I thought she was very loving and accepting of James later on in the episode. She has not shown any intolerance of any of the contestants at all.

Pennylane1101
Member

07-13-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pennylane1101 a private message Print Post    
I'm buddhist. As its been pointed out several times, it should be reiterated that Christianity is not forbidden in China, nor is Buddhism the 'official' religion of the country. (Buddhists had actually faced a great deal of repression during the initial years of communism.)
As far as Thursday's episode went, I would agree with those of you that considered both Leslie and Courtney's behavior completely disrespectful. in Leslie's case, for her to have been told various times that the ceremony was welcoming, not worship-based and yet she ran out of the temple... this is incredibly rude. Especially when we consider that she is a religious person- if someone of another faith acted in a similar way in her church, I'm sure she would feel equally offended. However, for Courtney to act so aloof and dismissive, and then to speak so condescendingly of the ritual she had been invited to participate in was just as callous.

Ladytex, what does Leslie's acceptance of James have to do with her behavior?? What was there to dislike or even find offensive about him?

However, other than a few hiccups, I am pretty excited about this season, and was pretty happy to see Chicken go!!

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Ladytex, you seem to have confused the words "I am surprised" with "I condemn". :-)

I did not condemn her. I would not do such a thing, and I'm deeply sorry that you think I would! I was merely surprised at her interpretation and her worry about participating in a "welcoming" that Jeff clearly said was NOT a "worship" ceremony. By the way, that was the exact wording he used - "it is NOT a worship ceremony."

She decided apparently that Jeff was lying, and by participating she was worshipping some other God. In fact, that is what she said, right? So many times bowing down felt to her like she was bowing down to some other religious figure, and she would only bow to her own.

To me, the warmth and love for all bestowed by Christianity meant she could have accepted their welcoming gift with warmth of her own, instead of a turning away. That is what love and acceptance means to me, a love and acceptance of people very different from yourself, not just someone who speaks your language. JMO.

I do not think God is so condemning that he would have found fault with her for staying. That such a worry exists in someone who has a deep and personal relationship with Christ also surprises me.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Seems like every season one of the tribes has trouble building a shelter. Seems like if you apply to be on the show you'd read up on that and other survival skills.

Nickovtyme
Member

07-29-2004

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nickovtyme a private message Print Post    

quote:

she ran out of the temple...




That's not even close to what happened.


quote:

Especially when we consider that she is a religious person-




She herself told Jeff she was not religious...


quote:

if someone of another faith acted in a similar way in her church, I'm sure she would feel equally offended.




I guess that remains to be seen..


It's all about intent anyway. The First Commandmant is "Thou shall have not other Gods before me" That can be taken in the literal and figurative sense. Just because you bow to Budha doesn't mean you worship Buddha. So some people take it in the literal...that is their choice.

Pennylane1101
Member

07-13-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pennylane1101 a private message Print Post    
We KNOW she is a religious person based on the fact that she hosts a RELIGIOUS TALK SHOW.

Pennylane1101
Member

07-13-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pennylane1101 a private message Print Post    
Also- Leslie's Bio:

Nease's hobbies include reading and studying scripture. Nease currently works as a Christian host for a midmorning radio show. She is on the air from 9 am until noon, and then spends the rest of her day being mom to her four kids, Stephanie, Tommy, Kennedy and Peyton. She also teaches fitness classes three nights a week (step, kickboxing, sculpt and cycle) and has her own speaking ministry where she encourages others in their faith.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pamy a private message Print Post    
RE Chicken giving Jeff something.....do any of the other sites, or interviews state what he gave him???

I have never seen anyone give Jeff something so I am surprised more arent talking about it

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
FWIW, in my understanding of most sects of Buddhism, they would not have been offended by Leslie's choice not to participate. Seeing it that way is putting a western mentality on an eastern philosophy.

In Buddhism, taking offense would be seen as a negative emotional state, or interpretation of events. This is something to be overcome, not rationalized. As such, the emphasis in Buddhism is not on forgiveness of other's trangressions, but in not being offended in the first place.

They would see Leslie as having not only a right, but an obligation to live life rightly as she sees it.

My own dismay at her leaving is that she seems to rely on a rules-based faith, the same kind of thing that Jesus condemned (and I think rightly so). To paraphrase, it's not the law that is righteous, it is adhering to the spirit of the law that matters.

So, when I said she had a limited understanding, it is MY interpretation that a - she judged Jeff harshly (and so all the monks in the ceremony also) by not trusting him, and the others that they would not ask her to do something to worship another God (altho in many sects of Buddhism, there is no God to worship anyway); and b - that her own faith should have provided her with the comfort and knowledge that particpating would not be something for which she would be condemned. Ie, it is not the rule (which is Old Testament based anyway) don't bow down to graven images that matters, but it is the spirit (the new understanding brought by Christ) of your behavior that matters.

To me, Christianity is much bigger than ritualism, and a rules based faith. And that is what I mean by "limited understanding" on her part. Not that she didn't have a right to leave, she most certainly did have a right to leave, and she did! LOL

Trueheart
Member

09-12-2006

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trueheart a private message Print Post    
a "welcoming" that Jeff clearly said was NOT a "worship" ceremony.

lol....gosh...I have heard this sooo many times here!

"well Jeff said it was a welcoming ceremony"

"but Jeff said it was a welcoming ceremony"

Just because Jeff called it that does not mean it is true! LOL It just sounds like "if Jeff said it's true then it HAS to be true! No way can we question it!!"

I'm not saying that he was going out of his way to lie to them. However, with it being in a temple with buddha statues and the bowing and the hands folded in prayer, can one really fault her for being uncomfortable?

Again, I will say that I could not have done it. Bowing is not something I can do mechanically. For me (and perhaps others like Leslie) the action of bowing=the feeling of honoring. How to explain....hmmm....my bowing cannot be empty....it is instinctively filled with honor and reverence. IMO the only one who deserves such a symbol of respect is Jesus.

So regardless if "to Jeff" this was just a "welcoming ceremony", to others it was much more.

Also someone said-
if someone of another faith acted in a similar way in her church, I'm sure she would feel equally offended.

That is an opinion/judgment. You have decided "in your mind" what you think she would do. In all reality, none of us know anything about her.

I would have walked out as well so should we lump her and I together? So does that mean if someone of another faith acted in a similar way in my church, I would be offended??

Absolutely not!! You can not push anything on anybody! I would have had much understanding if a Muslim or Buddhist had walked out on a "welcoming ceremony" in my church. It is their decision. You cannot bend people to do or to act or to think like you do.

I was hoping people would show her a little understanding.

Trueheart
Member

09-12-2006

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:57 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trueheart a private message Print Post    
It's like teasing.

Family members would tease me about stuff when I was younger. Some things were important to me so I would get really upset.

They would say "I'm just teasing!". It would drive me crazy because YES to them it might just be teasing, that was their perception...but to me (in my perception)it was much more serious.

If they continue to state that they are "just teasing", does that give them the right to keep doing it, when it hurts me so much?

It is all about perception.

Many of you state that you could go into that temple and bow and not think of it as worshipping. You could fold your hands and think of sports stats. That is fine. FOR YOU.

Please understand that there are others that could not do that. We perceive that action as worshipping. It means different to us as it does to you. Everyone is different. To Leslie it was not ok, she was uncomfortable by it.

I do not think that Leslie should be berated and insulted because she perceives things differently.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 1:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Trueheart, that's an interesting analogy, but to me it offers up an interesting contradiction as well.

I hate to be teased also, *unless* I am already clear that the person doing so values me. However, if I want them to accept my notion that it is hurtful to me, shouldn't I offer the same to them? And that is, I should be understanding that for them, they truly meant no harm. And if I understand that they truly meant no harm, then what is my objection?

So, the question becomes a little bit like whose perception trumps the others. My perception that the teasing hurts, and therefore they should stop? Or their perception that it is not meant in a harmful way, just in the warm way that those who really love you can say things about you that are silly and you get that they love you with all your warts? I want them to believe me, and they should stop. They want me to believe them, and not take it so seriously. Who's opinion/perception is more important, and should take precedence? And why would I possibly think that if I want them to understand and believe me, that I don't have an obligation to do the same for them? Am I somehow more important? Are my needs and perceptions more important than theirs?

FWIW, I was not berating or insulting Leslie. But we do what we do here, and that is offer opinions about the behavior of people on reality shows. Sometimes those opinions are negative, sometimes positive and sometimes neutral.

And by the way, the Buddhists would be the first to agree with you that they were not insulted by Leslie's behavior. But we westerners aren't trained to think that way. Some of us are and were disappointed that she couldn't be more open-minded and trusting, and learn from the experience instead of walking away from it. That's our right too. Just like it was her right to leave. Or, in other words, how come she should get a pass for her behavior, and not have it analyzed; and our opinions shouldn't matter? Don't our opinions matter as much as her? :-)

Karmaholic
Member

08-19-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 1:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karmaholic a private message Print Post    
I'm new to the boards and an off-and-on Survivor watcher, but this season looks like it might be the best ever. The players are great, from the most gorgeous grave-digger I've ever seen to a lady wrestler, to a gay flight attendant and a professional poker player. AND a lady radio minister. YEEEEEHAAAAA!! (Glad Chicken is gone. He was just annoying.) AND I MIGHT GET TO SEE AN ACTUAL PANDA IN THE WILD!!!

That said: Having been raised a Catholic, with 12 years of Catholic school under my belt, I could identify with and understand Leslie's knee-jerk reaction to being told to bow down to an idol. That little Catholic girl in me yelled RED ALERT RED ALERT -- FIRST COMMANDMENT ABOUT TO BE BROKEN. THIS IS WORSE THAN MURDER OR SODOMY!!!

There are a lot of us baby boomers out here who were beaten to a pulp by nuns and brothers, mentally and physically. And that scared little kid in me jumped up when I heard them tell Leslie she had to bow before a Buddhist God. HOLY COW!

But after talking to a friend about it, and thinking about it for a while, I realized that "bowing down" is a spiritual stance, not a physical one.

The First Commandment reads: "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me." Those who interpret that literally (like I used to) are missing the point. People worship money, fame, beauty, sex... etc. God was telling us to follow the God (good) within us, not the distractions and temptations of the physical world. At least that's what I now infer from the First Commandment. (But I'm also getting older and bowing is not as easy as it used to be.)

I can understand why Leslie reacted the way she did, especially being put on the spot like that. But she is a guest in a country with a very different culture, and I think she's got to put her good manners on in future similar situations.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 1:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
Lol Karmaholic, I know whereof you speak having endured irish catholic boarding school OUCH. Which also explains why I have no time for organized religion. Its about who you are and not who you claim to follow.

Messalina
Member

06-19-2005

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 1:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Messalina a private message Print Post    
Mods, is it okay to copy something here from Wikipedia? If not, please delete. I don't know how to do hyperlinks.

The following is Wiki's description of the "namaste"....the hands together with a bow that we saw on the show. Some of you may find this interesting. Pay particular attention to the last paragraph I've copied here and keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the *end all be all* of information.



Namasté or Namaskar (नमस्ते [nʌmʌsˈteː] and (from internal sandhi between namaḥ and te) or Greeting Phrase as well as a gesture.

Taken literally, it means "I bow to you". The word is derived from Sanskrit (namas): to bow, obeisance, reverential salutation, and (te): "to you" [1].

When spoken to another person, it is commonly accompanied by a slight bow made with hands pressed together, palms touching and fingers pointed upwards, in front of the chest. The gesture can also be performed wordlessly and carry the same meaning.

Contents [hide]
1 Uses in South Asian culture
2 Symbolism in Hinduism
3 Similar gestures around the world
4 Meanings in Western culture
5 References
6 Further reading
7 See also
8 External links



[edit] Uses in South Asian culture
In everyday life, "namaste" is not consciously considered a religious gesture. However, many believe it has a spiritual basis, in recognizing a common divinity within the other person.[2]

When greeting a peer, a "namaste" with hands in front of chest and a slight bow is considered polite. To indicate deep respect, one may place the hands in front of the forehead, and reverence for a god or the holiest of persons may be indicated by placing the hands completely above the head.[2]

Namaste is also used as a friendly greeting in written communication, or between people generally when people meet.

In some parts of India (for example, Punjabi-speaking areas), Namaste is used not only to greet Hindus but it is used in India,\ and Nepal in general. The proper greeting for Muslims and Sikhs being Assalamu Alaikum and Sat Sri Akaal respectively. But namaste is accepted universally in India and Nepal both by Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs and Christains (in fact all religions).





Gassho is the term used in Japanese contexts for the same hand-gesture, and is used in a Buddhist context. Japanese culture bows from the waist in a secular context, but in a Buddhist context uses gassho. In Chinese speaking places, the term 合十 (Mandarin: héshí; Cantonese: hahp- sahp-) is used. In Thailand, the gesture is known as ไหว้ wai (pronounced "why" with a falling tone).

In East Asian countries such as Japan, Korea and China, the gesture is never performed outside of religious contexts; for example, it is performed only when praying to a statue of Buddha, praying in one's ancestral shrine, or praying in a jinja, but the western media oftentimes falsely depict it to be the formal daily greetings among the people. This custom is, however, practiced by some South Asian and Southeast Asian countries such as India and Thailand, respectively.

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 2:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
what I get out of this is that Jeff and CBS have gotten exactly what they wanted. They've given the lately very vocal anti-Christian movement another reason to bash Christians, they've given the viewers that feel the need to immediately find a villain a villain, they've gotten all these people on the message boards a reason to post hundreds, if not thousands, of messages positive and negative about this lady who felt that she could not stay in this ceremony. CBS and TPTB knew this would happen, that's why they made a point of showing us Jeff saying it was not a religious ceremony. If it didn't look and feel like one, he wouldn't have felt the need to point this out. Leslie had a knee jerk reaction to a ceremony that felt religious to her, and there are people that will judge her for that for the remainder of her time on the show, rightly or wrongly. And you can just about bet that Jeff will bring it back up himself in a tribal council if they feel like they want drama. That's why he made a point of asking if it will affect the rest of her time. It's just another way of them directing or manipulating these shows.

Trueheart
Member

09-12-2006

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 2:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trueheart a private message Print Post    
Some of us are and were disappointed that she couldn't be more open-minded and trusting, and learn from the experience instead of walking away from it.

Ok. I guess what I am wondering is this- Why is she pretty much) the ONLY one receiving all of this scrutiny?

The other survivors could have gone through the motions and yet been thinking about the last thing that they ate or what tribe they would be on. Are they learning from the experience? Taking in the Culture? Some probably not. They may be as closed off from the experience as someone "walking out". But just because they stayed in the temple they automatically seem more understanding and open.

The Amazing Race has had many times where cultural experiences have been offered to people. Some (and not necessarily for personal beliefs) rush through or "walk out" on a chance to enrich their lives with knowledge of another culture.

So shouldn't you be disappointed with any contestant that is not willing to "learn from the experience" or "appreciate the culture"?

It seems as if she is being specifically cornered because of her beliefs.

Trueheart
Member

09-12-2006

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 2:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trueheart a private message Print Post    
they've gotten all these people on the message boards a reason to post hundreds, if not thousands, of messages positive and negative about this lady who felt that she could not stay in this ceremony. CBS and TPTB knew this would happen

That is so FUNNY!! I was thinking the same thing! It is kind of hilarious that we cannot stop chatting about this! And all this from what?......2 minutes of a show?

LOL You could type everything they said in that 2 minutes and get a small paragraph (if that!), yet it is enough to keep us hotly debating for weeks!

Karmaholic
Member

08-19-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 2:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karmaholic a private message Print Post    
I think one of the problems is that Americans have a reputation for not being willing to adapt and absorb different cultures. The typical ugly American is seen as one who pounds on a restaurant table when he can't get a steak like he can back home. Personally, I think these are the people who should STAY HOME!

I find it hard to believe that that CBS could plan this. If Leslie had just walked in there like all the others did, we would all be talking about James' amazing sculptured body and quiet strength. Sigh. And he has the most beautiful eyes.

Karmaholic
Member

08-19-2007

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 2:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karmaholic a private message Print Post    
And another thing. I think we would all be a lot healthier if we put our hands together and bowed when we bump into someone we know. Handshakes and hugs have put me into bed with a bad cold or flu for weeks! That little cultural custom is probably why they have been able to survive plagues and other epidemics over the last 5,000 years.

Chy
Member

07-19-2003

Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 3:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chy a private message Print Post    
Hahaha! Karm!

I have no time at all right now, getting ready for another Mass for college kids, believe it or not!
But I agree with many that, this is exactly what Jeff and EPMB foresaw and CBS is loving this!

My other point is that, Leslie having that job, she might have worry about how to face her superior and audience upon return. So, yes, she made her decision, I don't really fault her as a Catholics, as Chinese, I know the Chinese Government/Buddhist/Monks/nuns did not have any agenda. But as a person myself, having some time to think about it, I do agree w/ most of Karuuna's thoughts. Plus this one point I kept thinking, These castaways are considered Actors for all intention and purpose. Why couldn't Leslie just chuck it as an acting gig? I go and solo in a Christian Science Church for pay, sang in a Synagogue before, and when I'm in there I do everything others do <just as I ask all the kids who's show up to play an instrument or sing in the Mass!>... that doesn't mean I have turned CS or Jew for those times??