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Archive through September 22, 2007

The TVClubHouse: Survivor ARCHIVES: Survivor XV - China: General Discussions: ** SHOW: 9/20 Episode **: ARCHIVES: Archive through September 22, 2007 users admin

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Freetimefinally
Member

01-26-2006

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Freetimefinally a private message Print Post    
I had no problem with her not participating if she was going against her belief. I will admit I do not know the bible by heart but isn't there a quote in there about I shalt not lie. If this is the saying then my problem with her is when Jeff confronted her she said I am really not a very religous person but I felt it was wrong.

Also I am glad Chicken is gone. It irks me when people critize but never state a better way. Although this may have been the editing. He said something like do you really think this tree will hold up a roof but never said "This could work instead. Maybe we could do it this way. Or just we'll need more support for a roof lets keep looking" The way he said it was as if he was talking to a child.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I just re-watched that part of the show, and the phrase Jeff said was it is not a "worship service". He might it clear that no one was "worshipping" any other God.

I wonder why she didn't believe him? She did say she felt putting her forehead on the ground was bowing down to someone other than whom she believed in.

Messalina
Member

06-19-2005

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Messalina a private message Print Post    
I could be wrong but I thought Chicken said (during one of his "confessionals") that he had offered opinions earlier and no one had listened to him. He went on to say he wouldn't "do that again". I got the impression he was p.o.ed at his tribe because he had tried to help and they weren't having any. Of course, if this is the case he was having a major case of the sulks which is kinda childish but his sulkiness over slights, real or imagined, might have been entertaining had he remained.

I wanted him to stay to see if he would continue acting like that but now we'll never know. Da-yum!

Chy
Member

07-19-2003

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chy a private message Print Post    
Very wise, Tntitanfan!
You are correct about that a NUN was with Courtney rather than a Monk.
I'm sure you've also noticed the fact that, the castaways were segregated by sex, just like all the other Chinese attending the "ritual".

Maris, I never really followed that whole thing about FLG. I think some how the Government deemed it as a money-making/Government-throwing scheme rather than religion. Taiwan officials had one time called that Moon from Korea illegal as well(not sure of the standing right now).

But to think that China is "a place where worshiping God was something you had no choice in." and wondering "Where's the authenticity of faith in that?" would be wayyyy off.

Let's just say, over all, the Reds are starting to not sweat the little stuff... To think, it all started from Bird-cage Economics!

Trini
Member

07-06-2004

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 5:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trini a private message Print Post    
Just for the record, I am Roman Catholic and I know I will never try out for Survivor because of the ceremonies and beliefs of the people in their locations.
I totally enjoy watching though.

Cricket
Member

08-05-2002

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 6:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cricket a private message Print Post    
Here's my take on the 'ceremony.' As a Catholic, I'd have no problem doing a 'spiritual' ceremony. However, one of them mentioned they bowed about 37 times. That's a little more than a ceremony and more like a service. I don't think CBS (esp. after BB) should make this year all about Buhddism. When they mentioned the Buddhist way was bring nothing, I thought, "What's going on?" I'll wait and see what they do next week, but why can't they have the show in China with doing everything Buddhist? Was it part of the contract for letting them shoot there?

Chy
Member

07-19-2003

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 6:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chy a private message Print Post    
Trini, I'm Roman Catholic also.

I don't fault Leslie either. As some one mentioned up thread, she actually handled it pretty well. All the "Melt Down", "storming out" were just words to incite us on to watching the show or talking about it so much like a dog with a bone!

Allie up there also reminded us that, the show is what's responsible for putting her in that uncomfortable situation!

But I still don't think one needs to decline doing Survivor for religious reasons . Remember how all the castaways are considered "Actors" as far as the union or Payrolls' concerned? You could just be an actor following a scrip and acting it out! :-)

Skydiver6
Member

07-21-2006

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 6:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Skydiver6 a private message Print Post    
I loved James! What a body and he seemed so nice. It's great to have someone to root for again after BB. Speaking of BB I think Jen was on the wrong show. In her Housecalls interview she said she really wanted challenges and she wanted to push herself and experience things. I think she would have embraced the hardships of BB unlike some of those on it whining about it already.

I too was so shocked about how they dressed. after that season they had to just jump off the boat I would just always be expecting to go as I was dressed. It was nice they gave them their sneakers to keep at the challenge.

I thought Leslie was rude leaving the ceremony. But then again I am not religious at all now.

Rehtse - was that the Catholic religion you were talking about needing confession before communion? Just wondered as I grew up Catholic and went to communion many times but only went to confession once as a kid when a friend had to go do her first one and begged me to come with her.

I'm really looking forward to this season! It looks like a good one, very interesting and some good characters.

Chy
Member

07-19-2003

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chy a private message Print Post    
NOooo, Cricket! It's not part of the contract for letting them shoot there!
Again, the last time Buddhism was announced as a national religion in China, was in the TANG dynasty, about 610 A.D. A very religious Emperor sent Monks all the way to India to fetch scrips. That's how the classic Chinese novel Magic Monkey was inspired.

Castaways always had been marooned, taken to islands w/o luggage since many seasons ago(can't remember which!). SEG is just trying to tell a better story this time on that "act".

It's also undeniable that, there's a whole lot more Buddhism temples than there's Church steeples or Hebrew Temples in any typical Chinese city/town/village. I think the every day viewers expect to see that this season, and that's one much easier thing to deliver than Panda Bears! Now, you don't think every one will assume China is a place where Pandas will stroll on the street or sleep with the castaways on the deserted islands, do you? :-)

BTW, not all the temples are Buddhist either. Some could be Taoism. At some instances, it could be both, also. I'm fuzzy about the difference, but my grandma used to say it didn't matter when she was fulfilling her dream/gaol of visiting and worshipping in every temple there was in Taipei! :-)

Nerovh
Member

06-12-2005

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nerovh a private message Print Post    
You guys have made me re-think my opinion of Leslie. At first, I did think she was rude for leaving. But after thinking about it, I honestly don't know if I could have bowed like that either. One part of me says, "God would know the intent in my heart." But another part feels that it would be a betrayal of my beliefs in order not to be rude or not to make a target of myself in a game.

Obviously, the producers knew that this would cause concern for some of the cast or Jeff wouldn't have had to make the little speech about it not being "religious". I think the show should have given the cast the option to observe, rather than participate if they were uncomfortable. You can still respect somebody else's beliefs without participating in them yourself.

Cndeariso
Member

06-28-2004

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cndeariso a private message Print Post    
i personally felt the woman's refusal to participate was rude. to me it was about respect of another culture. i guess if she goes to Japan she won't bow in greeting to traditionalist there either.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
Just my two cents, but I am thrilled that Survivor showed more of the culture. I LOVED Guatemala season b/c of that reason.

Last year, my Eng. 10 students watched the documentary, Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion. It was incredible! It sparked many interesting conversations, and I think Survivor will be fantastic for helping us "Westerners" learn more about Eastern religions. Shoot -- I'm even reading "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama to learn more about it. And YES -- I'm a member of a protestant church, but NO -- learning about other religions, and even taking part in ceremonies (not "worship") would not be hard for me to do. I wouldn't "force" anyone to take part in something they felt strongly about, but not all Christian/Protestants have the same qualms. (Smacking the sour waitress wouldn't be hard either! LOL -- so there ya' go, I don't even do well on the "Love thy neighbor" law!)

This is a very interesting group, and I'm excited to see how the season progresses. As someone else said way back -- what a breath of fresh air after BB8! :-)

Trueheart
Member

09-12-2006

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trueheart a private message Print Post    
First of all, let me say that I would have done the same thing as Leslie. Absolutely.

When Jeff first mentioned that it was to be ONLY a welcoming ceremony and in no way a worship ceremony I was cool with it. No big deal. But when she walked in and I saw the atmosphere, all of the statues and yes...the bowing, even I, watching through the TV, felt uncomfortable for her.

I the Lord My God with all my heart and soul and mind and spirit!

When I worship God I clap, raise my hands to Him, move side to side and usually in times of deeper emotional worship (when I'm overwhelmed by how GREAT He is) I bow. Clapping and raising of the hands are actions used at anytime, but if you think about it, we really never bow in our everyday life. So, for me, bowing to Him is the greatest symbol of reverence. Reserved specifically to honor Jesus.

I'm telling you this because I could never bow down in front of anyone or anything else. Regardless of the intentions of the host. I know that they meant well. But I just couldn't do it robotically. The world uses actions, movements even dances to express emotion and feeling. I could never separate the action from the emotion. Maybe Leslie felt the same way.


my problem with her is when Jeff confronted her she said I am really not a very religous person but I felt it was wrong.

Not exactly. She said "I'm not a religious person but I have relationship with Jesus Christ". I feel as though I am constantly saying that to people! They will ask me "Are you really religious?" and I will say "I have a close relationship with Jesus!"


Religion is many times associated with rules and Laws. The Pharisees were very religious people. They had many rules and they tried to impose them upon believers. They made themselves to be "holier" than the others. Jesus came and tried to teach the people that God wanted to have a daily living relationship with them. Talk to Him, love Him, consult Him. He is not some far off God.

So there is a difference. Leslie was simply saying (as I am always trying to express)that she has that daily living devoted relationship to God. Whereas some people who are "religious" know of God and believe in him but do not live for Him everyday.

Sorry!!! I just felt the need to try to explain.

At the end of the day I think Nan said it accurately-

her relationship with God was more important than doing something she felt would be wrong.

Cricket
Member

08-05-2002

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cricket a private message Print Post    
I stated previously:
why can't they have the show in China with doing everything Oops, meant to say "without."
---------------------------------------

Thanks for the explanation, Chy. So this is just how CBS wants it to be this year. I'm glad you post here, as you may be able to explain some things to us as the show goes on. LOL @ Pandas walking down the street. They're so cute, I wouldn't mind. I have nothing against Buddhism; probably should know more about it, but was curious since they opened the show the way they did.

Puzzled
Member

08-27-2001

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:08 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Puzzled a private message Print Post    
No matter what Probst said, it sure seemed like a religious ceremony. If it wasn't religious, why hold it in a Temple?

Perhaps if they had explained the ceremony, and that they weren't bowing to Buddha, but the bowing was for another reason, she wouldn't have had qualms.

How many non-Christians would feel comfortable genuflecting at a Christian altar?

Denecee
Member

09-05-2002

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 10:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Denecee a private message Print Post    
Chy, I too am glad you are posting here. I love history and hearing about other cultures.
Trueheart, I respect what you are saying and how you put it. I am not "religious" but I do have a relationship with God. I feel that had I wanted to go for the Survivor experience that I could be a part of that welcoming ceremony without offending God.
Having said that, I am not offended that she didn't participate. Courtney on the other hand was being very childish.
I agree with somebody upthread, that Chicken came off like he was talking to kids yet he didn't offer(at least what we seen) a better alternative. Somebody said he did but I never heard him. Still I think he would have made me laugh had he stayed just by being the person he is. Is that mean?

Nan
Member

09-25-2000

Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nan a private message Print Post    
Trueheart.....beautifully written and wonderfully profound........I soooooo agree with you.

Biscottiii
Member

05-29-2004

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Biscottiii a private message Print Post    
With regards to Chicken. He reminded me of the VERY first Survivor to be booted off ever. Can't find his name via CBS but I surely remember him. I stumbled onto that first show (half an hour into it) and listening to a cranky older guy barking orders and talking down to everyone like they were unintelligent children. My first absolute FIRST thought was "Dude, I just bet you're going home, I would vote you off myself if I were there!"

Yes, that first gentleman worked extremely hard and appeared to be smart about initial needs & priorities, building shelter, etc. Then he felt entitled to wash his sweaty undershirt (because HE was the only one working hard, in his perception) with the sparse community drinking water - in the community cooking pot. (Yes, I'm no spring chicken myself but even I know better than such behavior.)

Sometimes, the older folks don't realize that simply because they KNOW more, they still need to meld and be somewhat 'likable'. Where Chicken lost out (IMO) was when he was asked for advice and he was kind of smirking like "I'm not going to tell you." So he stopped being useful to the team by his own methods. More like a detraction instead, who would slow the team's ability to start working together. Plus, they had to unload someone anyway. Probably felt better fumbling on their own, without someone endless sneering at their efforts.

Penpoint
Member

03-27-2001

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 12:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Penpoint a private message Print Post    
It seems to me that in every season of Survivor they talk a lot about the culture of the locale, and much of that has to do with the belief system or religion of the native people. And in almost every season the Survivors have participated in cultural/religious ceremonies having to do with various gods. Of course, those were mostly on small islands and the religions were not major world religions like Buddhism is. So, I suppose many people might have considered those ceremonies as somewhat quaint and not really religious in nature. In many cultures it is difficult to separate out the religion and the religious ceremonies from the general traditions of the people. I wonder if Leslie would have recognized this and acted in the same way if she had been on a different season of Survivor. I'm filled with a sense of sadness when a generally intelligent person exhibits such narrow thinking, is limited by such restrictive beliefs.

Dfng
Member

08-04-2005

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 4:18 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dfng a private message Print Post    
I have to agree with the post about the whole Temple thing being uncomfortable to watch. I'm not religious nor do I have a daily relationship with Jesus but yet I would be uncomfortable participating and probably would have left as well. I didn't like when Jeff asked her if leaving the ceremony would hurt her game. Some things are more important than the game.

Also, most of the other rituals from the other seasons are not held in temples/worship structures. They are usually out in the open air and you are not asked to bow down to their symbols of worship. For me that is the big difference.

I hope this line of story line ends here. I don't watch Survivor to get a religious or political education.

Dfng
Member

08-04-2005

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 4:19 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dfng a private message Print Post    
oh, and I was sad to see Chicken go. I think he would have added a lot of humor to the game.

Tntitanfan
Member

08-03-2001

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 6:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tntitanfan a private message Print Post    
I am just as glad Chicken left - I think most of the laughing would have been AT him, not WITH him, as he didn't seem to have much sense of humor!

Dark_mutton
Member

08-20-2007

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 8:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dark_mutton a private message Print Post    
I was out of town this week and just now got to see the show. I am so glad Survivor is back on! I agree with others here - James seems sweet/genuine and is easy on the eyes. I also liked the flight attendant guy, and I think Ashley the wrestler will be fun to watch. Courtney's remarks were obnoxious but made me laugh - does anyone else think she is starting the game awfully thin? I don't see where she has any reserves to get her thru a mini-famine. She might well be weak and useless before long.

As for Leslie, to each his own. My in-laws are hyper-Evangelical and would not attend my son's high school play - in which he had the lead - because they did not approve of the subject matter (not that they had ever seen the play). Their loss - they missed the play and their relationship with my son is damaged. I think if Leslie is there to play the game she should not have walked out. She missed out on a cultural experience and the other Survivors have a piece of information about her they can use to their advantage.

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 8:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Brenda1966 a private message Print Post    
It appeared to me that none of the Survivors took off their shoes when they entered the temple. When I was in Thailand we always took off our shoes before entering temples (and even prior to entering anyone's home).

If Leslie is not interested in experiencing a different culture I wish she had just stayed home. I thought her leaving the ceremony was rude for all the reasons others have stated.

The blonde skinny girl's comments actually made me laugh -- mostly out of shock that she was so willing to slam another's cultural celebration and over how quickly she was cutting down all the other players.

I found this first episode really interesting. The scenery is lush and amazing. The contestants seem interesting. I have high hopes for this season!

Skydiver6
Member

07-21-2006

Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Skydiver6 a private message Print Post    
I thought the first person ever voted off of Survivor was the older woman named Sonja. I remember coming home and turning on the TV just in time to see tribal council and see her voted off. I cried for her. It was so sad seeing her torch get snuffed out. I was hooked from that minute on and have never missed a show since.