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Kitt
Member
09-06-2000
| Monday, December 28, 2009 - 9:23 pm
Only in a male dominated society would all the positive things that Nerovh listed be categorised as passive and weak. What would a "stonger woman" be like? Start some arguments? Insult someone? Strength is as much in the eye of the beholder as beauty is.
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Biscottiii
Member
05-29-2004
| Monday, December 28, 2009 - 9:53 pm
Any "stronger woman or man" was an instant threat to Russell's ego and was an instant Goner. Natalie was smart enough to play under the radar, use the "meat shield" for protection, AND keep building & stroking Russell's ego to the point he was crowing like a banty rooster in front of the jury. She played him like a violin. Several times I thought (while watching Marisa, Betsy, & Liz talking each time before their demise) "WHOA Ladies! Maybe you're totally correct but you're begging for a target on your back. Better to choose your battles wisely among all these people you don't know!" I thought that one challenge where Natalie (& John IIRC) were hanging from swings, being yanked around to clutch a flag to plunk into the holes. Natalie had most of her body extended from the swing, shaken like a rag doll, while hanging by her legs to Win that challenge. She also seemed to be doing a lot of cooking & working around camp. Just because she might have been petite, she never struck me as "weak". She HAD to be a strong woman to smile & listen to a nasty little man's BS for 39 days without taking the machete to him while he slept. 
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Merrysea
Moderator
08-13-2004
| Monday, December 28, 2009 - 10:07 pm
Natalie was certainly stronger than Russell in the individual immunity challenge that Jaison won - and that involved physical strength. Also, when Natalie found food (such as the rat), she brought it back to camp and shared it. Russell talked about he would find crabs and eat them himself. He didn't even try to provide for anyone else.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 6:43 am
In case my post was missunderstood, I'm perfectly happy with Natalie winning as I would have been fine with Russell winning (but for different reasons). I also agree that it is unfortunate that loud and brash is often perceived as a positive in today's society and quiet and subtle is perceived as weak. I also think it is unfortunate that a "strong" woman is sometimes perceived differently than a "strong" man. And that is why some people may be troubled or disappointed that Natalie had to use this approach to win.
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Costacat
Member
07-15-2000
| Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 8:31 am
I'm curious... those of you who think Natalie didn't do anything to win... do you also think Russell should have won? I'm thinking there is a clear divide and the criticism Natalie is getting is from Russell fans who think he was "robbed."
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 11:24 am
Natalie survived Russell. That alone made her a winner. He is so misogynist that any woman who was able to keep her mouth shut and somehow earn his good graces (of which he has few) deserved the win.
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Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Tuesday, December 29, 2009 - 6:01 pm
<<<<-----big Russell fan. Would have loved for him to win but understand why Natalie won. I liked Natalie too, she played totally different game but it worked for her.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 4:39 am
I actually was torn between hoping for Natalie and Russell. I liked her but I think we're reinventing history to suggest she had a great game. When we like someone, they have a great social game and are good at not drawing negative attention to themselves, when we don't, they're riding someone's coattails. What I saw for 16 weeks was Russell take the game by the throat from Day 1, finding immunity idols like he was picking daisies, getting rid of anyone he saw as a threat to him with ease and orchestrating almost every event that took place. We know this because we saw it and Russell went on about it in his confessionals. If Natalie had a strategy beyond following Russell, we never saw it. Her confessionals were about being proud of herself and killing a rodent. We never got a real glimpse of this great game player some have invented after the fact. If her confessionals had indicated that she had more of a mind of her own and was playing Russell in her own way, then I'd give her more credit. We really had no sense that she had any particular plan other than staying in the background which is what many, many players try to do. It's hardly a strategy that merits a million dollars in my opinion, particularly compared to someone who played the game so tenaciously.
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Colordeagua
Member
10-25-2003
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 4:46 am
finding immunity idols like he was picking daisies, Russell found them, but in an interview he said it took him a long time -- not at all as quickly as the impression given in editing.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 5:01 am
It was a metaphor. The fact that he spent hours looking for them while others were cutely killing a mouse is just further testament to his determination and strength of will. Everyone there was free to exhibit the same tenacity. No one did.
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Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 5:17 am
and he found one while other climbing inside a tree in front of everyone that was just sitting there!!! He even told someone what he was doing and they just shrugged. To me, didnt matter if it took him 5 days to find one, he was the only one even looking!! If someone else was looking I think we would have heard about it.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 6:56 am
"What I saw for 16 weeks was Russell take the game by the throat from Day 1, finding immunity idols like he was picking daisies, getting rid of anyone he saw as a threat to him with ease and orchestrating almost every event that took place." I see that as part of his downfall. This is a finesse game. The FoaFoa4 was more than happy to vote as a group. The ousting were great for Natalie she was in on every ousting all the time working the jury and soon to be jury. She played a perfect game. She never had a target aimed at her. She was sure Russell would take her to the end, she knew this early on. She also saw that Russell had no clue about the game as a whole. Just as sure as Russell was that he'd win taking Natalie Natalie was just as sure that she'd win against Russell ecause he was so disliked. Natalie's strategy was the correct one. Russell's biggest downfall was he took the wrong people with him to the end. This was proven when the jury was given different options. Had he taken Shambo or Jaison he would have won. Natalie used and in the end abused Russell and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again. Russell doesn't understand the game fully and therefore it was correct for him to lose the million dollars it was Natalies from early on. This isn't a game of mere braun it's a game of relationships across the board. Finding the idols was a great move and he did change the game forever. That I give him props for but obviously that is not enough, it's a much broader game. Natalie knew this Russell didn't so he lost.
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Holly
Member
07-22-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 7:53 am
<It was a metaphor.> Actually, it was a simile 
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 7:59 am
Imagine if Natalie had found all those idols, was that tenacious and focused, if she controlled her tribe the way Russell did and immediately got everyone to get rid of anyone who might challenge her authority. Imagine she's the one standing out in all that freezing rain talking about her love of the game, oblivious to the conditions while every one else is shivering and beaten. Imagine if she was the architect of getting rid of a tribe with an 8 to 4 advantage at the merge. She'd be lauded as the best Survivor player ever, by far. And if Russell played Natalie's game, he'd be quickly forgotten among the flotsam and jetsam of previous ordinary Survivors.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 8:41 am
I guess I agree with Adven. If Natalie had demonstrated all along throughout the show that she had a strategy then I might be more enthusiastic about her win from a strategic viewpoint. However, I kind of have the impression that she stumbled into the win just by being nice and floating along and then there was a bit of quick invention of her strategy of how she got there that was done after the fact. The producers had no particular reason to make this Survivor the "Russell show" when they already knew that Natalie had won. If Natalie had given them more material to work with, I would think that they would have used it. The fact that what we saw of Natalie was so likable is the main thing that makes her an appealing winner to me. Also in fairness to the jury, while I will definitely state that I would be more than pleased to give someone who had outplayed me a million dollars, I'm not sure that I would give someone who insulted me a million dollars. So the question is did Russell insult the jury. He made them feel stupid but I'm not sure whether that was his fault or their fault.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 8:42 am
In his confessional, Russell took credit for every vote off. Several weeks he had to back off and vote his second choice. I didn't like his bragging. I didn't like the way he talked about women. I am glad Natalie won. She didn't play a stand out game but that doesn't mean she wasn't deserving of the win.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 9:32 am
In many other years I wouldn't see Natalie as undeserving either, but her game was ordinary, hardly original and based largely on luck, since it is an approach many contestants take every year. Russell, on the other hand, made this year. Love him or loathe him, his gameplay and personality just ecllipsed everything else. We can nitpick whether he deserves credit for this or whether Natalie did that, but it was simply Russell's game this season and I have no doubt at all that the jury recognized that. It's why I object to their decision.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 9:55 am
What Adven and Jimmer have said. I think the viewers have invented a strategy for Natalie, post win, because I certainly didn't see one while she was playing. I think she Mr. Magoo'd her way to the end. Dumb-blonde luck, not brilliant game play. That's why I don't see her as a worthy winner. The discussion here has helped me appreciate why Russel lost -- his arrogance, insulting the jury, making them feel stupid, not respecting them. I still don't feel good about Natalie's win and think she will be long forgotten whereas Russel will be long remembered for how well he manipulated the game.
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Kitt
Member
09-06-2000
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 10:28 am
I think you're all believing Russell's hype. Just because he tells you he was controlling the game that doesn't mean he was! We saw several times him pushing for someone to go, usually after someone had offended him in some way, and the rest of the group had to persuade him round to a more logical choice. Then in the confessional he just said it was his idea all along! I think the producers tried to make it into the Russell show because of his personality. Him standing in the rain with glee was a delight to see, as was him putting the HII necklace on during the tribal council (although that probably sealed his fate as number two) but what is good entertainment to the viewers isn't necessarily good strategy as a player. He entertained, and for that he won the $100K. If he had played the game more skillfully he would have won the $1M.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 10:32 am
I think the producers tried to make it into the Russell show because of his personality Or, since no one there has claimed the show was edited unfairly, it was the Russell show.
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Kitt
Member
09-06-2000
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 11:24 am
Again though, just because he is entertaining doesn't mean he deserved to win. And just because others weren't as entertaining to the viewers didn't mean they didn't deserve to win. It's nice when the two come together but they don't always.
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Bbpeach
Member
07-06-2005
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 11:38 am
I think what stands out in reading all these discussions is, that in almost every Natalie should win case, there is also stated something about Russell. When arguing that Russell should win, it's on his game moves. That's very telling to me. I guess the bigger question would be, if any other 3 Foa Foa plus Russell had made the merge, would they still have been the F4. And on the other hand, the other 3 plus anyone but Russell, would they have made the F4. I think Russell was the key factor in them even making it to the finals, therefore deserved the win. Having said all of that, I'm a firm believer in if the jury votes for you, for whatever reason, you deserve the win. So Natalie also was deserving.
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Merrysea
Moderator
08-13-2004
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 11:45 am
It could also be argued that had it not been for Russell, more than four Foa Foas might have made the merge. His decision to weaken his tribe only worked for him because Natalie, Mick and Jaison kept him from being voted out at their numerous tribal councils (because they wanted to be sitting next to him at the end).
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Donnagg
Member
08-11-2007
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 1:18 pm
I quit watching this year not because of Russell but because of the stupidity of the other players. In the beginning we mainly only saw Foa Foa and Shambo I never got the chance to learn more about Brett,John and the others. What was shown of Foa Foa was Russell and his not so bright team mates. I have made the decision in my life not to watch stupid anymore. I will watch if they start showing game play involving more than one player.
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Dfennessey
Member
07-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 1:38 pm
Donnagg I am with you I stopped watching because of Russell and I will probably not watch it this season knowin he will be on it. I did not like the Russell show. and I always thought Coach was bad but at least Coach did not make me stop watching it.
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