Author |
Message |
Hootyhoot
Member
12-18-2001
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:55 am
I think the interaction between Tom and Ian was fairly straightforward ... Tom would have taken Ian to the final three without any dithering about it, but Ian was ready to vote Tom off the island ... which took Tom totally by surprise. When he heard Ian's statement about "not having to make the decision" he realized Ian did not have his back ... and when Jenn told him Ian had planned to vote Tom out if he didn't have immunity, that verified what Tom had begun to think. So, I don't have any problem with Tom asking Ian some hard questions ... but what Katie was doing in the middle of this is beyond me, because she too was playing both sides of the fence. I'd love to hear what Ian thought when he saw the episodes unfold on tv.
|
Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:05 am
I think Coby's problem with Tom was simply...Tom. I got the impression from Coby that his issues with Tom went deeper than the game. Coby seemed to think that Tom "owed" him something, what that was, I've not a clue and I don't think Tom did either. Was Coby still upset for not being included with "the boys" and somehow that became totally Tom's fault? He acted like Tom did him (Coby) wrong.... I hope raising a child gives Coby a new perspective on life....because he sure acted like he needed a clue last night.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:08 am
Finale & Reunion: Oh, Ian! Congratulations Tom! (Just promise you'll never kill another shark ever again...unless, of course, Jaws is attacking you or something like that.) Best wishes to Coby and baby daughter! Cheers to Greg for your turn at Tribal Council and also for being such a gentleman at the Reunion. Ooh la la Bobby Jon! Thought the previews for Guatemala looked great! I'm amazed they'll be allowed to live in the ruins. Season in General: Pros ~ Great challenges, hauntingly gorgeous locale, and yea for having several strong players make it almost or all the way to the very end. Cons ~ Some ugly treatment of a few "outcast" players; very disappointing showing by the female contestants; and, sorry to be mean but, Katie's "I'm not a physical player strategy"
|
Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:28 am
I think that Coby associated Tom with the macho athletic types that he said used to pick on him in school. Tom seemed like a great guy to me but I can see how someone like Coby could feel intimidated and threatened by someone who is strong, confident and assertive. Hopefully, his experiences on Survivor have given him a boost in self confidence.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:33 am
maybe he was still mad when they (led by Tom) didn't take him on the fishing trip....
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:44 am
Who would have ever thought a person could win a Survivor by being honest? He has been my favorite ever since I read that his favorite scent was his wife's neck. Jimmer, I think you could be right about Coby and Tom. He look at Tom and saw everyone who had ever wronged him. Ian may have been believable if we had not seen him in the interview telling the camera he was taking out Tom. I wonder what Tom thought when he saw that. While I did not like Katie in any form or fashion, she was right. Whether anyone liked her gameplay or not, it got her to F2.
|
Yesitsme
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:10 pm
I'm thrilled that Tom won. He seemed like a nice guy (though not overly nice!) and did such a great job out there. I feel a bit sorry for Ian, but he really had planned to betray Tom. I would have rather had him in the finals than Katie, but I doubt he could have won over Tom. Though he deserved the second place prize over Katie. Ian's play at the end was interesting. I personally think he thought Tom would choose him for the final 2 over Katie anyway, but we will never know whether that was true. Voting Tom out would have been the best strategic move for him, so I don't fault him for thinking about that at all. I think he just decided to bow out gracefully because he knew he couldn't win and he decided to give up second in favor of being the nice guy. Now he will be known as the guy who chose friendship over money. And there's nothing wrong with that. Katie was right about her strategy. You don't have to be the best physical player to win Survivor and she had a very viable strategy in glomming onto two of the strongest players. And attaching herself to Ian primarily was good...she whined and cried when necessary and did use him well. She made some good decisions for herself. This is such an interesting game. So many factors impact who gets to the end and I think it is rare that the best player really wins (though I know that is debatable and I could debate it myself.) I think that Tom is probably the best all-around player to win. He had the social skills, the brains and the physical abilities and generally used them at the right times. It was a fun season.
|
Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:10 pm
I agree wtih Gen and Costacat (back a few pages). I'm not thrilled with a Tom win. I liked him a lot at first, and I don't dislike him now, but I am seeing some bullying behavior that others have mentioned. He was harsh with Katie (not that she didn't deserve it) and with Ian, almost browbeating him. It felt like he was taking advantage of his father-figure position. IT made me uncomfortable and it obviously effected Ian greatly since he dropped out of the competition. Katie is not likable. I don't know what IAn saw in her. We all hoped she would stick up for Ian but she just joined Tom in bashing him. She should have told Tom to take Ian to the final 2, but I guess she is SO self-unaware that she had no idea she didn't have a chance to win. I agree that Tom should have just taken Ian to the finals and shown he was a man of his word. I think Coby felt Tom lied because Tom never admitted to lying, just that he "misled" people. But I seem to recall Tom getting Ian to tell Caryn that Ian was still in on the Tom-Caryn-Ian final 3 and that's when Ian slipped and said Katie. How is that not lying? Overall a disapponting and lackluster season for me.
|
Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:19 pm
Tom like to characterize his lying as misleading. It is always interesting how people justify their not telling the truth to others and yet blame others who also "mislead" How many times last night did Tom explain away his not keeping alliances by saying "I was lied to". Tom was terrible to Caryn and if anyone was responsible for Tom getting to the final two it Was caryn, she told him about the girl alliance and what did he do? Set it up so that Ian told Katie which of course put Caryn on the outs with the women. I dont have a problem with Tom winning but he was a bully, he used Caryn as much as Katie used Ian and in my mind was not honorable at all with her. As far as Coby is concerned, I dont think it was so much not letting him go fishing but Tom telling him to "stay with the girls". Coby and Janu were on the outs with the "cool people" at least that is the way they acted and it is easy now to forget how they treated people like Janu, Coby and Caryn.
|
Feelangee
Member
01-04-2005
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:23 pm
In your scenario, Tom wouldn't have been a man of his word whether he had taken Ian or not. Just before Ian stepped down, Tom gave Ian his word that he would take Katie. If he hadn't, and had taken Ian instead, that would be much worse, imo.
|
Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:29 pm
Tom was very happy to take Katie with him to the end and there is no guarantee that Tom would have taken Ian to final two. Tom more than likely would have used the excuse of Ian's lies to justify taking Katie, if Ian hadnt already made it easy for him. We will never know though. My only pointis there is no way to go all the way to the end of this game without telling a lie. Tom lied as much as Ian did.
|
Feelangee
Member
01-04-2005
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:32 pm
Sorry Maris, I wasn't responding to your post, I was responding to Brenda's. I think Tom would've taken Ian if that had been the agreement. But like you said, we'll never know for sure.
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:33 pm
When Katie went with Gregg and Jenn on the reward trip, Tom correctly assumed that Gregg and Jenn would get Katie into an alliance. Therefore, he was trying to get Caryn in alliance with Ian and himself to possibly cause a tie in the vote. But when he found out Katie was still with them, he kept his allegiance to the original alliance. When Ian slipped, it could have been Ian lying again with no intention of giving up Katie, who he obviously was not ever going to vote against. Ian was not a good liar and got himself caught every time.
|
Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:47 pm
I don’t think that Tom lied, as much as Ian did (I’m not sure where Tom lied at all). Tom did appear make some bad judgements and decisions based on misinformation and gullibility (and that was his tribal council defence) but that doesn’t equate to deliberate lying.
|
Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:54 pm
I think Tom lied to Caryn, during that walk on the beach. He kept her hanging on and knew what he was doing. I am one of the very few here I know who felt that Caryn was treated very badly by all.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:57 pm
Yep, I think Caryn got a raw deal too...
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:59 pm
Maris, I agree that Caryn was not the most respected person, but I think her biggest problem was that she not very good at covering herself either. She hemhawed (Is that close? I've never had to spell it.) around way too much, especially for a lawyer.
|
Yesitsme
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:00 pm
I'm never bothered with lying during the Survivor game. I'm a big believer in honesty in real life, but I think lying (or bluffing) in the context of a game is fine and adds a dimension that makes it more fun.
|
Sassynegal
Member
01-21-2005
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:03 pm
I don't think anyone has ever played the game without lying/misleading someone and I think you have to in order to make it to the end. Matter fact I'd rather someone make it to the end by lying rather than letting someone else do the dirty work and then winning for coupling up with them (Amber). I think Tom's disappointment was in the fact that he never waivered from keeping with Ian until final 3 even though it was obvious that Ian would pick Katie over him for F2 and was his strongest competitor, and when he found out Ian had planned or thought about taking him out he decided game on and wanted to take out his strongest competitor. I don't blame him to me he was a worthy winner for once. And I don't think by grilling Ian he was being a hypocrite as he never said he didn't mislead/lie to anyone just that he never did to Ian and it hurt him as he laid total trust in Ian all along. I don't care much for Katie or how she played the game and I do wish Tom would have not voted out Ian and got rid of Katie instead but I can't blame her for not telling Tom to take Ian - she still won $100,000 and I don't think many people could have just given up the 100 G's to save face. I think Ian knew if he made a deal with Tom and got off the bouy then Katie would have gotten the jury all angry and against him and if he won immunity he'd make Tom mad by keeping Katie and if he just lost immunity Katie would accuse him of throwing it so the only chance he had was to give up and maybe hope Tom would take him to F2 for his act of redemption.
|
Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:08 pm
Awesome fishbowl radio show today! Eliza called in, but was with Katie, Ian, Gregg and others, so they were all on the show. I wasn't very fond of Katie on the show, but she was absolutely hilarious today! Make sure you all listen to the archives.
|
Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:59 pm
Fee, I don't think Tom should have agreed to Ian's deal. Didn't he offer him a deal that he'd take him if he stepped down? And he threatened him that if he fell he'd take Katie? I would have been more impressed if he had said: I'm a man of my word and I'll take you to the final 2 over Katie because I think you deserve it more and I think you're my strongest competition. I still think Tom would have won. I agree that Caryn was treated badly. She was used for her vote and then when she wanted some answers she was tossed aside. I think they should have kept her over Jenn, but then Caryn spouted off and stirred the pot and sealed her fate. I firmly believe Tom lied to Caryn. He can label it a "mislead", but rose is a rose. Lying is a part of this game, I just get tired of the game player who claims they never did.
|
Gen
Member
08-22-2003
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:04 pm
Yesitsme said: I'm never bothered with lying during the Survivor game. I'm a big believer in honesty in real life, but I think lying (or bluffing) in the context of a game is fine and adds a dimension that makes it more fun. I agree! The thing that was disturbing to me was that Tom and Katie were hammering Ian for things both of them had done and they knew it. It was the pot calling the kettle black. Tom "misled" Caryn and Katie flip-flopped.
|
Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:45 pm
Lying during Survivor doesn't bother me much either. It's sort of part of the game. But I still don't see how Tom lied to Caryn. Did he ever promise her anything specific? And, I don't see how Tom could have retained much integrity by taking Ian after specifically promising him that he would take Katie?
|
Spear
Member
08-06-2001
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:48 pm
quote:When Katie went with Gregg and Jenn on the reward trip, Tom correctly assumed that Gregg and Jenn would get Katie into an alliance. Therefore, he was trying to get Caryn in alliance with Ian and himself to possibly cause a tie in the vote. But when he found out Katie was still with them, he kept his allegiance to the original alliance. When Ian slipped, it could have been Ian lying again with no intention of giving up Katie, who he obviously was not ever going to vote against.
This is giving Tom too much credit. It was Ian who figured out that Katie might join with Gregg and Jenn and turn against them. He had to convince Tom to use Caryn and force a tie. Even at the final TC and at the reunion, Tom never sounded sure that Katie and Gregg had really turned against them and wanted to blame Ian for breaking the alliance. Similarly, at F4, it was Jenn who had to convince Tom that Ian was ready to turn on him. Tom was a great physical competitor but he was poor at reading people.
|
Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:52 pm
Yes. Those are great examples that illustrate the point that Tom was not a big liar or manipulator. He was very trusting and always had to be convinced by others that he was being betrayed. Going back on your word once you are convinced that you are being betrayed does not make you a liar. Also, my understanding is that the difference between second and third prize is about 15k, so no one was giving up 100k by finishing third.
|