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Archive through September 15, 2009

Reality TVClubHouse Discussions: Other Reality Shows ARCHIVES: Archives for 2009 - 3: Jon & Kate ARCHIVES: Archive through September 15, 2009 users admin

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Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
But Jon isn't remotely doing what you described, Escapee.

Babyjaxmom
Member

10-20-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyjaxmom a private message Print Post    
Very nicely said, Karuuna. Divorce is tough for kids no matter what age. DH's "kids" were 19 and 21 when we met, and it was tough for them. I understand that their first loyalty will always be to their own mother, but I've tried to build a friendship with them. DH's daughter now calls me on Mother's Day and I heard her tell a friend one time on the phone that she was "at my other mother's house." Sweet! The son has been a little slower to come around, but our home is always open to him. It takes a long time for those wounds to heal.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
That wasn't the point Jimmer. It's actions and words you use that stay with your kids forever and ever. Selfishness hurts the children more than your spouse.

Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:17 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Texannie a private message Print Post    
kar sacrificed her sleep even if she didn't mind doing it. but true..jon isn't being self sacrificing.

good for kate and dr phil...loved how they handled the questions. and good for phil for making babs feel awkward!

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Jimmer, do you really think I *wanted* to stay up all night? Not me, I am one of those who really *needs* my sleep. I often get migraines when I don't get sufficient sleep. However, I chose to do it, because my son's needs at that moment were more important than my own; and I have a responsibility, having brought him into this world, to take care of him, even if it means sometimes sacrificing my wants or needs.

Do I think a parent should sacrifice *everything*? No. Do I think some sacrifices are necessary to be a good, loving, responsible parent? Yes, I do.

Perhaps we have different definitions of sacrifice/want/need? But that's how I see it. If you're going to have children, I think it's best to see it from the start that often the children are more of a priority than what you *want* to be doing at any given time.

These children are very very hurt. They are in pain. That's what should matter most right now to any truly loving parent. And minimizing that pain, rather than creating more is what the parent should do. He can have his girlfriend those weeks when he's not with the kids. When he is with them, especially only being with them half time, his attention should not be diverted -- it should be on them.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. What I hate to hear is a parent saying to a child (or older child or young adult) something like:
"You know I gave up a lot when you were born! All those skating lessons cost a lot of money that I could have spent on myself! And I could have been out having fun ... but no .... I sacrificed and stayed home and looked after you. So you darn well better be grateful!"

It's not good for a child to feel that his parent sacrificed for him and it's not good for a parent to feel that way in the first place.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:33 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Oh, to me, that's a different thing. That's what I call "laying a guilt trip" about the sacrifices you made. Yes, you make sacrifices, but that doesn't mean you expect something in return.

If you're going to be resentful of all the things you have to do for your kids, you probably shouldn't have had them in the first place.

But I don't think there is anything wrong with a child knowing their parents 'sacrificed' for them. Talked about correctly, they see it as how much their parents loved them. That's what my DS would say if you asked him - we've had many such conversations. When he realizes how much I've done for him, he says "I have the best mom in the world" and I tell him right back "You made it easy. You're the very best kid in the world!"

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Yes I think you wanted to do it, Kar. If you didn't want to do it, you wouldn't have done it. It was your choice.

I will never tell my daughters that I sacrificed anything for them. I love them and all that I do for them comes from that love.

I think we aren't saying anything all that different. I think we just have a different definition of "sacrifice". :-)

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
LOL - Just different definitions. I'm not afraid to let my daughters be aware when we are good to them. :-)

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 9:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
It's the difference between unconditional and conditional love. My Grandma used to do stuff for us and say it was because she loved us. Then she'd turn around and say "Well I did this for you, you owe me"

Talk about conditional love....

Babyjaxmom
Member

10-20-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:01 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyjaxmom a private message Print Post    
Does this mean it's not okay to tell DS about the hours I spent in horrible pain and then the C-section? I actually did tell him about the C-section (and showed him the scar--discreetly, of course), but then I told him he was worth it!

Ophiliasgrandma
Member

09-04-2001

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:16 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ophiliasgrandma a private message Print Post    
My MIL was very fond of telling everyone that when she gave birth to my DH he just ruined her. She even had said that to him when he was a little boy. I heard her say it more than once. Unforgivable!

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Brenda1966 a private message Print Post    
I don't think it's fair to say that Jon doesn't "love" his children because he's making mistakes, or not doing things the way we'd do them.

I probably agree more with Jimmer's definition of sacrifice. I don't sacrifice anything for my child. I don't feel like I do. Did I give up my film society membership? Yes, don't have time for that. But it's not a sacrifice. I did it willingly. There will be time to do that again when she's grown. Does that mean I never go to the movies? Heck no, I still need to sometimes do those things that make me happy. I still need my films. :-) A happy mom makes for a happy home. I think it puts kids in a horrible position if they feel like their parents sacrificed all the time for them. My child knows she is my joy, my first priority not because she's supposed to be, but because I want her to be.

Some religions teach that you put god first, then your marriage next, and your kids come third. I never could understand that. It's probably why I'm not married. Couldn't see putting my spouse before my kids?! Making his needs a priority over my kids? Doesn't make sense to me. But that's a whole other discussion. LOL.

I think Jon should be spending time with his kids without his girl friend. I'm not sure when the time will be right to introduce her, but since they are not engaged I think he should hold off. I agree, if he doesn't do it right he could damage any potential relationship those kids will have with her, provided she does become the step-mom.

Babyjaxmom
Member

10-20-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyjaxmom a private message Print Post    
I think all parents "sacrifice" things all the time without thinking about it. It doesn't mean to have to be a martyr to sacrafice something for your kid. How many of us have put off buying something we would have liked to have had when our kids need shoes, clothes or even that special toy? I know when it's a choice between me and my kid, I'll wait every time before I make him wait for something he really needs. I think we all do it without even thinking about it. Sacrafice doesn't mean you have to suffer. It's just choosing your child's needs over your own at times. And I agree, you can't do it all the time. Sometimes moms need new shoes, too!

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I think some people just object to the word "sacrifice."

I do lots of things I don't "want" to. It's just redefining the word "want" to say because I chose to do them, I must want to do them. Let's just say I want the consequences of not doing them less. :-)

I think there is nothing wrong with presenting children with that reality, so when they are parents, they are realistic about how little time you might have left for yourself. Better to know that, than have some fantasy about it being easy!

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Ah conditional love, I know it well.

I used to hear (from earliest childhood and throughout my life) my mother bitterly complain about the fact that she miscarried so often, that in order to keep me, she had to stay in bed the entire nine months and get daily needles on her bum. NOW that she has dementia, she still tells that story, but says with a beatific, angelic smile, that 'it was worth it'. It only took 54 years for her to turn it around. I have no doubt that she feels it was worth it, at this point in time, when she needs me, rather than when I was a child and needed her UNconditional love. Oh well, it is what it is.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:42 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
To illustrate better this poor redefinition of "want", let me use an extreme example.

Women are often advised to 'go along' with an abductor or rapist, in order to stay alive.

To me, it's crazy to say they "want" to cooperate. They may choose to, in order to save their lives. But no, they did not want to.

It may work for you to say "want", but for me, that's not as good a phrase in this case as "I chose to".

And of course, what feels like a sacrifice to one person, may not feel like a sacrifice to another. It never felt like a sacrifice to me to not date on the weeks that I have custody of my DS. I only had him half the time, I had already given up 50% of my time with him, why would I give up more? Someone who loved me would understand that, I always thought.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 10:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
To me, there is "love" that is a feeling. And Jon likely 'loves' his children that way.

But Love, to me, requires that you understand someone else's point of view. This Love Jon fails in. He is all about his own needs, not his children's. That's not love, that's selfish.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:14 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
In the extreme example of rape, the choices are very limited and none of them are good ones. And that is why it is an extreme example. Fortunately, in most situations we have a choice.

I think everyone here (myself included) agrees that Jon is moving too quickly. However, I'm curious about how long everyone thinks Jon should wait before introducing his kids to a "friend" and how you think he should describe the friend when he introduces them to her?

Sabbatia
Member

08-15-2005

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sabbatia a private message Print Post    
I remember being a small child, and my mom scrapped together all the change she could find and took my sis and I to get a donut each. As I thought about it later, it made me sad because she was in her 20s and you KNOW she wanted one just as much as we did....but she claimed to be on a diet every time. That's sacrificing for your children....and unconditional love.

I don't think Jon would give up that donut.

Babyjaxmom
Member

10-20-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyjaxmom a private message Print Post    
Sweet story, Sabbatia. My mom likes to tell the story of when she and my dad were first dating in college (c. 1945). They went to a movie and he bought her a popcorn. She offered to share with him, but he told her he didn't like popcorn. Later she found out that he LOVED popcorn (could easily eat a tub of it in one sitting). He just didn't have enough money to buy popcorn for both of them, but wanted to treat her. Awwwww!

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
That is SO sweet Babyjaxmom! :-)

Glenrie
Member

03-24-2006

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:57 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Glenrie a private message Print Post    
I never did use the word sacrifice because I don't consider it such.

We are seeing a great example of putting one's childrens needs first although it drives some people crazy. I would imagine that Kate would love to let loose and spout off about Jon's behavior and what really went on and is going on in their marriage. She is putting her children first and for the most part, keeping her comments in check. I don't know if I could be so constrained.

As far as the children meeting dates, lets start with after the divorce and when the relationship is serious. He can date but why introduce them to the kids? Particularly, when there is a new one every week.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 11:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I guess the bottom line is that you can use whatever definitions for words that you choose to. However, I personally think it's unwise to impose those definitions on other people, for example, saying *I* wanted to stay up all night. It's often frustrating to people when someone else tells them what they want or don't want. Just sayin'.... We do agree that I chose to do it however.

Personally, just like me, there are things my son does because he "has" to, not because he "wants" to. Things like brushing his teeth, or cleaning his room or go to school. He does not have a choice. He simply must. So for me to continue that view of the world, ie, I do some things not because I want to, but because I need to, is simply a continuation of that sense of discipline, and not giving in to my every desire. LOL

Anyway, it makes more sense to me to talk about it that way; and it makes more sense to me to parent that way.

Babyjaxmom
Member

10-20-2002

Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 12:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyjaxmom a private message Print Post    
Very good point, Glenrie. Kids don't like to see their dad sporting a Flavor of the Week. If and when he gets serious with someone and decides to make her a permanent part of his life, then she should meet the kids. But it's tough on kids to get attached to a new person, only to have that person disappear when dad (or mom) breaks up with them.