TVCH FORUMS HOME . JOIN . FAN CLUBS . DONATE . CONTACT . CHAT  
                  Quick Links   TOPICS . TREE-VIEW . SEARCH . HELP! . NEWS . PROFILE
Archive through August 27, 2008

Reality TVClubHouse Discussions: Other Reality Shows ARCHIVES: Archives for 2008 - 3: Greatest American Dog: ARCHIVES: Archive through August 27, 2008 users admin

Author Message
Dogdoc
Member

09-29-2001

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 3:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dogdoc a private message Print Post    
Star did seem tired last night. She did not enjoy the puppies. Even though she went after the one puppy I don't think she did it meanly it. It looked to me like she was chasing it away but would not harm it. The boarder collie got all the puppies out be leading them. I think dogs do send messages to each other mentally and that is why the puppies followed. Costa, thanks to you I got to see it.

Costacat
Member

07-15-2000

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 6:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Costacat a private message Print Post    
Pish. If it wasn't me someone else would've told ya! :-) (Glad you got caught up though!)

Jodied75
Member

08-26-2004

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 6:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jodied75 a private message Print Post    
I think dogs communicate almost entirely through body language, and Leroy "showed" the way. I noticed he was not behind the puppies, but lead them, and with our human eyes we didn't see what the signals were.

I really think some of the dogs are starting to break down. Or at least Bella and Star were (and Bella's owner BT was breaking down herself). I was quite unhappy over how Bill pushed Star - I couldn't stand seeing Star get into a submissive body position (laying on her side while licking her lips) - and Bill making her go again. I actually do think he would have fared better if at that point he had said, "Star's had enough." Victoria especially is very much about encouraging the dogs' feelings of security and confidence, and ensuring their rights.

Speaking of Victoria, and the fight, what exactly was that about? I don't have dogs, I am a cat person. Being on disability, it would be unfair to the dog if I had one because I wouldn't be able to afford to properly care for it.

So what exactly was she angry about? She was talking something about "submission training"?

Sabbatia
Member

08-15-2005

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 8:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sabbatia a private message Print Post    
Sea....you can go to Dogster and search Jia and you will find my little girl. Yesterday, she snuck in beside me while on the puter and stole my checkbook out of my purse. She can be such a brat, but when she's loving, it's totally worth it!

Jodi, they were disagreeing about training techniques. Some people make their dogs do what they want and others believe in only positive reinforcement. Ignore bad behavior as much as possible but reward good behavior. But it's different with different dogs as far as I'm concerned. I have one dog you can't MAKE do anything unless she wants to...and we dropped out of puppy school because the instructor wanted me to use force and make her do what I said. Force doesn't work with her. With my others....yeah it probably would.

Jodied75
Member

08-26-2004

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 9:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jodied75 a private message Print Post    
Hi Sabbatia, thank you for answering me. Like I said, I don't have a dog, but from experience with them (I worked in a pet store when I was a teenager, in charge of the puppies and kittens section, and then later, I worked in a grooming salon), it is clear to me that just because they're all the same species, dogs require different training techniques because they all don't respond alike.

So what would "force" entail? I can see it's not hitting the dog or anything like that, but is it somehow making the dog fear you?

I don't particularly like J.D., but he seems to have an affectionate relationship with his dog(s) (I saw him on another site with a bunch of dogs).

Does anyone watch Brad Pattison in the show "At the End of My Leash"? I love his training techniques, but I can see how often he comes across as very harsh with negligent owners. He has very strict rules with them when in training mode with their dogs. But after the dogs are trained and respect their owners as the "Alphas", the owners can be more affectionate towards their dogs.

Sabbatia
Member

08-15-2005

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sabbatia a private message Print Post    
Well....in my situation, Jia wouldn't down. It's one of those traits with dogs that are really dominate like she is. She will do it at home, but not around a lot of other dogs. I tried all the tricks during class but she fought it tooth and nail and REFUSED to do it. Then he told me to lay on her if I had to but to get her down. Okay, she's 25 lbs and one solid muscle, laying on her would have been the ONLY way I was gonna get her to do it and while it would work once, it would never work again! It wasn't like she didn't KNOW what I wanted her to do, she just wasn't comfortable doing it in that environment. So in this case, pulling her legs out from underneath her and laying on her would accomplish nothing. When we got home, she did it and got treats....but I don't force her to do anything....okay I DO force her to let me put on her harness LOL.

Also in this class was the issue using those spikey collars. SOrry....but not on my strong willed dog! Again, using force won't work! She's the type that no matter what the collar was doing to her, she wouldn't awknowledge it or submit to it. This class used force to gain submission.......but using only positive reinforcement has done 10X the good the class did. BTW, if you want a dog with a cat attitude, this is your dog!

Sadiesmom
Member

03-13-2002

Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sadiesmom a private message Print Post    
The inconsistancy on this show is annoying. If Bill had quit - they might have picked on him for 'not challenging his dog". I think they just wanted him on the bottom this show.

With JD, I don't like his personality, but he eems to havea dog that loves him and he makes the challenges fun for his dog. Like when they painted, he did it by playing frisbee while the dog had paint on it. What ever he did to train his dog, his dog loves him for it.

I worry abit aboout Bella starlet. My dog is with me quite a bit, when I travel and board her (in someone's home - never kenneled, she spent 5 years in a crate in a shelter, so I won't let her think she has gone back there) she suposedly cries and sits in a corner. Although the last place had a yard fll of squirrels and she as the only dog, she seemed much happier - but it wasa 4 hour round trip drive! Anyway, back on topic, I don't think it is healthy for the dog or the owner to be so attached and I say this as someone who has a 45 pound lap dog who wants to work her computer. Not healthy! The dog demands so much attention, I am trying to wean her of some of it.


Besidesthe difference in ages of dogs and the difference in sizes of dogs, the maze challenge wsw just not fair. The people with "fresh" puppies did better than the people with puppies who already went through the maze.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 7:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
The language that I heard between JD and Laurie was about the practice of "scruff grabbing" to show dominance or to correct a dog.

I have mixed feelings about this. I will use a scruff grab to stop dogs from fighting or in an emergency. I never use it any other time.

But some trainers use a scruff grab to correct all kinds of misbehaviors, and also to achieve dominance. Some will even do a 'scruff shake'.

Since they never showed JD using this technique, it's hard to say how aggressive he was. However, the current trend in dog training is to not use this technique at all for training purposes, but rather positive reinforcement.

Supergranny
Member

02-03-2005

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 9:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Supergranny a private message Print Post    
So didn't anyone enjoy those fat healthy puppies? I loved watching them. I think it really depended on the individual dogs as to whether the puppies thought they would be fun to follow. I have a pug that the puppies would have followed...some are leaders.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 9:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Oh, I thought the puppies were just adorable, but they made me miss my golden! :-(

I thought everyone got fresh puppies? I know Jerry marked his three so Star would be with the same three. And I thought Travis got to choose his three also?

Some puppies are just naturally born to play and follow too, while some are indifferent. I'm not sure this was the most fair of challenges.

And... I do agree that it's sometimes hard to figure out what the judges want. It seems it's hard to find a line between 'challenging' your dog, making it fun and not honoring the dog's discomfort. Sheesh.

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 3:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
The were awfully cute, but I have to say back when I was breeding pups NO WAY would any puppy that young be out and exposed like that.. you really want them to have their vaccinations and be SURE they have titer before you take that chance.

I think they did get fresh puppies..

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 4:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
One basic I learned right away was to be firm, fair and consistent and never to nag. Better to be a bit forceful once.. say you are using a choke chain (NOT a pinch collar for a lab!!) make sure it is on correctly, dog on the correct side and you zip it and give one command and then if they don't do it, put them in place and then praise. People all too often just jerk jerk jerk on the chain and say sit sit sit or whatever and of course after awhile all the dog hears is wahwahwah and they ignore you. And dogs, like people, don't like being nagged anyway.

If you can starte early puppies can learn sit so young. They are so cute, too.. we'd have a whole litter of shiney little black pups wagging and sitting for their food bowls. They learned sit and they learnd the whistle for sit at the same time.

Same with come... we'd get the mother (or the older dogs if it was a new puppy from elsewhere) and of course the pups follow the adults, so you do the whistle and voice command for <dogsname> COME and they'd joyously bound out with the mom/adult.

On lead you get a long lead, one zip of the chain, lots of encouragement to sit in front of you.. but anyway, I've never had a dog who needed a pinch collar. On the other hand I have had "exuberant" labs who didn't do well on a traditional show lead but we'd get very pretty snake choke chains and a very thin leather lead and that still looked polished but gave a bit more control when needed. (this was for conformation.. you don't take them offlead there.

Sabbatia, I tried searching for you Shiba on that site with no luck.

Ah you also have a shiba/finnish spitz mix. I met some people who have a finnish spitz.. She's a handful but she did pose with them for pictures. LOL I was of course trying to get pics of them and the one they chose to use wasn the bgest one of Igloo, not them.. sigh.

Sabbatia
Member

08-15-2005

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 4:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sabbatia a private message Print Post    
Try this Sea http://www.dogster.com/dogs/236626/in/stroll/

Yes, I have a shiba/finnish spitz mix...but he thinks the camera steals your soul. He runs and hides when you get it out. He is a rescue and by far the most loving dog I've ever had! BTW, both of them will know if they want something, they have to sit first, and Jia did actually learn to sit when I stop and she is on lead. Soooo we did get SOMETHING from the class LOL. Also, she was so mouthy when she was young that we did keep a 6 inch lead on her to be able to grab her and stop her when she was being too wild, without getting in the way of those teeth! There are times when for everyone's sake, you have to let them know what is allowed and what isn't.

Besides the fact that this challenge was geared to herding dogs, it was geared to the younger dogs also. Star isn't unusual in her reaction to puppies at that age, and Dogs DO get tired faster when they are older. Just because they are getting old, doesn't mean they aren't the greatest American Dog! Of course, having a near crippled 14 yr old, I would say that LOL.

Also, I'm SOOOO glad the two that left are gone. I didn't think they would have lasted as long as they did!

Supergranny
Member

02-03-2005

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 5:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Supergranny a private message Print Post    
Oh Karuuna I'm sorry. I was being thoughtless and I know how it can twist your heart. I still ache whenever I see a frenchie. And I have these 4 pugs to fill my heart!

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, August 22, 2008 - 6:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Oh, it's okay, SGranny. I love my new little pup too. I just miss my old friend.

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 12:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
She's really nice, Sab.. and what a FACE!

Costacat
Member

07-15-2000

Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 4:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Costacat a private message Print Post    
I just finished watching this week's ep and...

1. Bill would've been damned if he did and damned if he didn't. And Victoria was way out of line. If he'd stopped, he would've gotten ragged on for not challenging his dog. Yes, Star went submissive. But she did get back up and did run the course again.

2. This challenge was also tailor made for the herding dogs, and totally unfair to the smaller dogs and to the boxer (who is a puppy himself).

3. I don't know what Leroy "said" to the puppies, but that was pretty awesome to see them follow him. I think, though, that Teresa and Leroy got lucky. A herding dog isn't a leader usually, and all LeLe did was play follow the leader. Still it was cute and impressive.

4. It was really tough seeing those golden babies (after recent events). But they were totally adorable.

And OT to Sabbatia... walking back from Starbucks this afternoon, I saw a couple walking not one, but TWO, shibas!!!! (They are pretty popular here in my neighborhood, where there are a lot of condos and houses with smaller yards.)

Sadiesmom
Member

03-13-2002

Monday, August 25, 2008 - 2:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sadiesmom a private message Print Post    
My dog has so many issues after 5 years in a shelter. I don't use choke chains, she would kill herself before stopping, but a gentle lead harness that will discourage her from pulling and yet she seems quite comfortable to gallop around wearing. I establish my dominance by not letting her get away with some stuff, like eatng without the OK first - will gently take her away from the food and "talk to her" She wants the food, but is polite enough to listen. She has learned to wait.

When it comes to a scruff grab, I think of cats carrying their Kittens this way. I wonder if how roughly it is done matters, or if it is just bad because the dog does not like it?

In short - doesn't the what and the where both have to be considered to judge? Some things are useless, like yelling at a dog - dog doesn't understand, so why bother? But a quick tug might make all the difference in the world to a dog.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, August 25, 2008 - 3:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Sadiesmom, since they didn't show JD using a scruff grab, it's really hard to say what they were criticizing him for. Also, they never really showed how the judges found out, or what set Victoria off. If they did, I missed it.

I agree sometimes it's the intent, demeanor and ferocity that is behind a technique that matters.

Milan will use a 'touch' with his hand or even his foot to distract a dog that's starting to ramp up. He makes it very clear that it's not a strike or a kick, more like a poke. Altho he also says it simulates a dog bite, which I think is confusing. Dogs bite hard!

And I imagine a scruff grab could be the same, depending on how you use it. It's just that it has a really bad rep from years ago, when trainers advocated grabbing a dog by the scruff and shaking it whenever it misbehaved (even for housebreaking accidents, for one example).

Nowadays, most trainers advocate other kinds of distractions/corrections for misbehavior. And you don't find many that advocate a scruff grab/shake technique.

Whoami
Member

08-03-2001

Monday, August 25, 2008 - 3:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Whoami a private message Print Post    
I only grabbed Bomba by the scruff forcefully once. It was several years ago.

If he and his brother misbehaved, they had time outs, and each had a spot to go to. Boomer was always off to his time out spot right away. Heck, sometimes he timed himself out when we didn't know what he'd just done! ).

Bomba, OTOH, had a teenager attitude of "yea, so what?" when I told him to "go lay down" (the cue to time out). He'd deliberately go lay down next to his time out spot, then get up and wander before I'd told him it was okay. It was an obvious play for power. So, one day, after he wandered off, and I'd told him to go lay down, and he gave me that, "who's gonna make me" look, I took him by the scruff, collar, butt fur (and whatever else I could grab), and physically dragged him over to his time out spot (not easy to do on a large dog that doesn't want to go where you're dragging him). I got him there, and made him stay there till it was time to come out. After that one time, he never challenged me again. When I told him to go lay down, he'd go right to his time out spot and wait for my okay.

Nowadays, he's a good boy. And the need for timing out is in the past (he just told me to tell you that, cause he's reading over my shoulder as I type ).

Beachcomber
Member

08-26-2003

Monday, August 25, 2008 - 5:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beachcomber a private message Print Post    
Who, LOL! What a great picture that conjures!

Ceasar did recommend the scruff grab for small dogs that would not calm down, it was in the show where he went to a women's prison that worked with dogs to rehabilitate them for adoption. I use it very infrequently for my Chihuahua when she is obstinate and it really works. I hold her by her scruff and cradle her bottom in my other hand so that she is not totally being held by the scruff. It is just enough to mimick the mother's hold of a puppy and she chills out immediately.

Msbullwnkl
Member

08-16-2005

Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 8:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Msbullwnkl a private message Print Post    
Isn't this the same Elvis from Greatest American Dog?

Bark Mitzvah

Trini
Member

07-06-2004

Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 10:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Trini a private message Print Post    
Thank you Msbullwnkl; well done it made me smile.
Yes it is Elvis from GAB.

Beachcomber
Member

08-26-2003

Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 5:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beachcomber a private message Print Post    
Wow, little Andrew was so brave with that charging elephant! He and Laurie have such a good calm energy, she must be a great dog trainer and I hope this opens alot of doors for her in her career.

Beachcomber
Member

08-26-2003

Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 5:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beachcomber a private message Print Post    
Bill & Star went home, I am going to miss his sweet personality and his "orange" dog.