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Black, White

The TVClubHouse: Other Reality Shows ARCHIVES: Archives for 2006 - 1: Black, White users admin

http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/blackwhite/main.html

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through March 08, 2006Mocha25 03-08-06  8:29 pm
Archive through March 10, 2006Julieboo25 03-10-06  9:23 am
Archive through March 17, 2006Madelane25 03-17-06  8:46 am
Archive through March 18, 2006Ladytex25 03-18-06  10:43 pm
Archive through March 23, 2006Julieboo25 03-23-06  9:03 am
Archive through March 26, 2006Jhezzie25 03-26-06  12:45 am
Archive through April 14, 2006Sanfranjoshfan25 04-14-06  1:34 am
Archive through April 15, 2006Wendo25 04-15-06  11:45 pm
Archive through April 17, 2006Spangs25 04-17-06  8:43 am
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Author Message
Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Heh... I'm not much of a postmodernist. I think words do hurt. I see kids all in the time in my practice whose self esteem has been incredibly and horribly damaged by words. They are not taught that it hurts by the culture in which they live, they just know it intrinsically.

There are few people on this board who don't let words hurt them. I don't really believe that such a change will ever come about; I certainly don't even see it in our youngest generations.

IMO, it is far better to teach that words have power, and they should be used responsibly.

Spygirl
Board Administrator

04-23-2001

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Spygirl a private message Print Post    
Kar, whether you realize it or not, the last sentence of your post is postmodern thought. . The only difference is that it isn't the formation of letters into words that have power, it is the meaning we give to them.

We construct meaning around words to give them a great amount of power. We see it all the time when one thing posted ruffles feathers for some while the same thing doesn't offend others. This is an indication that words inherently don't have meaning, we (as individuals, through personal and social experience) create meaning in particular way that includes includes hurt, oppression, dominance, and power (and any other number of things).

It is far better to teach that words have power, should be used responsibly, and to strive not to let them dictate our feelings.

ETA: I disagree completely that people know words are hurtful without some socialization to that effect. We create hurt socially.


Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Spy, that stuff just hurts my head. :-) I'm not really sure we are saying the same thing at all.

Words do have the power to hurt. Yes, if I say to another adult "you're an idiot" how he takes that is partly his own attitude and under his own control. But I hardly see a world where saying "you're an idiot" is not *meant* hurtfully in most cases.

What I'm saying is that *adults* can choose to be upset by what others say, or not. They choose their feelings, they haven't changed the meaning of the words, they've only chosen their behavior around hearing those words.

As for children, they have limited ability to make such a choice. Words that are meant to hurt them generally hurt them. And often deeply.

So I don't see *meaning* as changing, I see people choosing how to react to them.

As for mistakes in how people interpret posts, that's not meaning that's changing. The author's meaning stays intact, regardless of how others interpret the words.

Jan
Moderator

08-01-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:14 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jan a private message Print Post    
Some famous behaviouralist whose name I forget once taught this in a seminar I attended many many many years ago and I have never forgotten it. He said:

there are 4 parts to any conversation between any two people:

1) the life experience you use to form your thoughts

2) the life experience you use to choose the words to express those thoughts

3) the actual words and tone heard by the listener

4) the life experience of the listener used to translate the words they hear into context and meaning in their own mind

from step 1 to step 4 a whole world of difference can occur in the intent/meaning of the conversation


Spygirl
Board Administrator

04-23-2001

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:18 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Spygirl a private message Print Post    

quote:

So I don't see *meaning* as changing, I see people choosing how to react to them.




Exactly! And over time, if people react differently, it is inevitable that the meaning changes.

The example you gave is perfect. The meaning behind "You're an idiot" has changed dramatically over time. There was a point when it could NEVER be used as anything other than an ugly thing. Now, it depends on delivery and more often than not - it is playful. Again, this depends on your own meaning :-) Since we do not have the option to erase words from our own language, we have to decrease the power of them.

Children suffer the most because of the way we create meaning around words. As adults, we have to act responsibly on their behalf to learn how to decrease the impact of the negative meanings. Otherwise, we fail them.


Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
"In fact the sentiment of your comment was similar to that of Bruno, in that you and he were effectively "blaming" the recipients of racism for the problem instead of directing it toward the hateful person at issue."

But I was not blaming the recipients for the hateful behavior of racists using a hateful word. That's all on the racist. I was just pointing out that the reaction to the word is something that is possible to control.

When a person's reaction to a word makes him shift from calm to enraged he has effectively allowed himself to be controlled by the person that used the word.

It seems to me that when someone uses that word, their ONLY reason for doing so is to get an angry reaction. Getting angry and losing your composure is exactly what the name caller wants. Why give it to them?

Spygirl said very clearly what I was trying to say when she said:

"It is far better to teach that words have power, should be used responsibly, and to strive not to let them dictate our feelings."

In any case, if anyone thought I was trying to say that we should all be free to use the n-word and black folks should stop letting it bother them, that is NOT what I was trying to say!

Madelane said: "Interestingly though to me, is that the two times words became contoversy on the show were two times when the speaker was not being vicious! Carmen saying Bit** and that young man saying the N word around Nick were both not being hateful, just uninformed in different ways."

And that is exactly what I was talking about. In those two instances, I think there was a huge overreaction....because as you said, the intent was not malicious. Why let something that is said out of stupidity control you? I completely agree that Nick should have educated those kids how using the n-word like they did was uncool, period. But I don't think that his becoming enraged over it would have accomplished anything at all. In that case, it might've only put up a bigger barrier between him and the white kids he was trying to understand.

Thanks, Spygirl, for letting me know that at least you "got" what I was saying. It was upsetting to have my view totally dismissed because I'm white, without regard to the fact that being gay, I get the same kind of hateful remarks. In this instance, I think we have more in common than some would like to admit.

Denecee
Member

09-05-2002

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:53 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Denecee a private message Print Post    
Amen to what spy said!

Spygirl
Board Administrator

04-23-2001

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Spygirl a private message Print Post    
Thanks you guys for a good discussion. I'm leaving out of town now and didn't want to appear I was abandoning the thread.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Spy, sorry you're leaving. I would still argue that the meaning of "you're an idiot" does not change over time - only our reactions change. Someone may use different words later to convey the same meaning, but an insult will always be an insult, even if we use a different word to express it. To me that's not a change in inherent meaning, it is a change in language. You may as well call it the difference between saying it in French or saying it in English. Meaning (to me) goes far deeper than the actual words you use to express your meaning.

As for children, there will always be parents and other adults and other children who *mean* to be hurtful, whatever words they use. If you say that words still have power, you've actually changed nothing meaningful other than the words used to convey the hurt....

Or maybe I just don't get postmodernism. That's always been a failing of mine. The philosophy just doesn't make logical sense to this modernist.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 11:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Thank you for the lovely compliment Spangs.

I think that a word can only have the meaning that people give it based on their reaction to someone using it. So if the common reaction to a word changes over time, then hasn't the meaning changed when the word is used in that particular context?

Let's pick a specific example – the word "bad". One funny moment I remember was my boss a few years ago commenting on an Elton John "Tribute" singer that our company hired to sing at an event. The expression he used was: "That Elton John impersonator was bad!" and then he added "and by that, I don't mean he was
good!"

So the meaning of words do change over time, based on our reactions to them.

On another note (agreeing with Sanfran), I have never understood why people get so upset when someone they don't like, don't respect and don't care about, says something negative to them. Why give someone like that power over you?