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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:40 am
Exactly Sanfran! I was trying to say something like that, but coudn't get it out right. What if no one got offended by that word? Then it is not powerful at all.
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:27 pm
so say some white people
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:58 pm
"so say some white people" I understand the situation perfectly without regard to whether I am white or black. I was looking at the situation from the point of view of a gay man that has dismissed the negative connotation (and power) of the word "queer". That word used to set me off when it was used as an insult, yet it was okay when used in jest by a friend. Nowadays it's simply a word that no longer holds ANY power over me. One of these days I hope to completely dismiss the power of the gay f-word, too. I have met many young gay people that already dismiss that word as a powerless ex-insult. Good for them! They have magically disarmed those who use that word as a ready weapon. The n-word, like the word "queer" or "f*g" only has the power that one chooses to give it. Personally, I am still working to strip the word "f*g" from any power over me whatsoever....and the last thing I would do is lecture someone that has already found a way to deflate the power of such a word to reverse course and give power back to the word (and those that use it).
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Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Friday, April 14, 2006 - 9:10 pm
To me, the F word isn't even close to as vulgar as the N word due to what is behind the N word. There isn't a whole period of slavery and racist white f-ers behind the F word. White ppl came up with the N word as a means of degrading and labeling a race, I don't know for sure where the F word came from but I don't think it came from as evil a place. When I was young I didnt realize the F word was degrading to gay ppl but I KNEW the N word was. Over the years I learned that the F word and the Q word are thougth of as offesive to the gay community so I use neither. Actually I don't like to put a word/label on anyone so I really try and use other words such as friend, co-worker, lover, partner, guy, or girl. I hope that all made some kind of sense
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:16 pm
Yes, you made sense, Pamy. But still, no matter what the origin of the word is....it only has the power that one bestows upon it. It's interesting, too, that when I was a young kid in West Texas, the n-word was a "bad" word and the accepted word was "negro" or "colored". Even the word "Negra" was okay because it was basically just an alternate pronunciation based on dialect. Then by the 1970's the use of the word "black" became the acceptable term. I had a tough time getting used to that because when I was a kid, calling someone "black" was offensive! Recently, I was chastised for using the term "black" and I was told to say "African-Americans". Anyhow check out the origin of the word HERE. Be sure to read the "Etymology" section. "I don't know for sure where the F word came from but I don't think it came from as evil a place." No matter where it came from, it still wound up as an evil weapon, similar to the n-word.....and it only hurts when we let it hurt. When Nick wasn't fazed by it, I wondered what good would come of his folks convincing him to give the n-word the power that they do. If he did, it's possible that when he heard the word, he might get upset, angry, defensive, or his blood pressure might go up and he might stop thinking clearly and possible reacting rashly, etc.... As long as he is able to dismiss the power of that word, it cannot hurt him. (It seemed to me that they were not upset because he didn't know what the word was....they seemed upset that the word did not make him angry!) When that whole thing about the b-word came up, it reminded me of once when I called a black co-worker "bit¢h" in a very light hearted way. She became enraged and reported me and made big deal out of it. That shocked the shit outta me! I learned then that there was a cultural difference in the use of "bit¢h". I still hear white folks use it in a joking, even endearing way all the time! I think that was what happened between Carmen and Renee. She didn't say "bit¢h" as an insult at all, but in a light hearted, familiar kind of way, but that apparently crossed a line in black culture as far as Renee was concerned. Wouldn't it be great if ALL weapons could be rendered useless if we just chose to stop believing in them? Unfortunately, the only weapons that actually works on are words.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:54 am
so say some white people...
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:40 am
It's really sad that some black people choose to dismiss observations based on the fact that they were presented by someone with white skin. So much for trying to understand one another...
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:54 am
Those are excellent. well thought out points, sanfran, and I agree with you 100%.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 1:31 pm
Especially when the black person's perspective is being discounted.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 1:52 pm
Who is discounting the black perspective? It seems to me that I was agreeing with the perspective of Nick, a black guy. The n-word didn't hurt him because his attitude didn't give it the power to. It's interesting that you came right out and discounted my perspective based on my skin color....or my "white perspective"....while accusing me of discounting the black perspective. I watched the series and I thought it was really interesting. It was about learning how black people and white people have trouble understanding one another's perspectives. I had expected that discussing this concept would help us all to understand one another a little better, but apparently that isn't the case. Rather than discussing any points or any observations I made, I am dismissed because I am white! Pardon me for expecting an open minded discussion rather than abject dismissal of views and ideas based on skin color.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 1:56 pm
The issue here is the power of using derogatory words to hurt someone. I'm not sure what the race of the people participating in the discussion has to do with this question. Hopefully a Black person wouldn't think less of Sanfran's opinion simply because Sanfran is White.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:24 pm
With respect to having the ability to not allow derogatory words or statements to hurt you, I think that is a fantastic achievement. If you do not respect the person or people who are using those words or making those statements, then there is no reason to allow them to impact you in a negative way. Of course, I also understand the desire to refute the statements but that is a different thing. All of this easier said than done of course.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:28 pm
Well you can hope all you want to Jimmer. But if I'm going to be real and since yall want an open and frank discussion then yes I'm discounting your opinion Sanfran because you are white. And I'm speaking just for me, not all black folk and not for the other black folk on this board, they can speak for themselves. I wouldn't tell you to discount the f-word or the q-word and say that it's just words and they should hold no power etc. Because it all depends on who's using it and the context. Nick's parents needed to remind Nick that he's a black man living in America and all that it entails. Yes I'm sure it would be nice in years to come if we didn't have to do that but I don't think that's gonna be possible and it dang sure ain't today. To let him go around thinking it's ok for white people to use the n-word in front of him is just, oh I can't really describe it. Let me give you an example. My son is 15 and is in his freshman year at high school. And in this school he's in the minority, whereas in Elementary and Middle he wasn't. So he gets invited to a bday party from one of his white friends. He told me that he first made sure that there were going to be some other black people there. Then his dad and his grandmother(my mom) and myself told him, don't be like Nick on that show and let anyone use the n-word around or to you. He laughed and said I'm not stupid. He went and had fun. Difference between me and my fam and Nick nad his is that I haven't sheltered my kids about being black in America. They also know the difference between the n-word and the n-a-word. It's a black thang.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:31 pm
p.s Oh and I also discounted your opinion in this issue because to me it's like, what is this white person gonna tell me about what words I should or shouldn't give power to. After 400 yrs of slaver, Jim Crow, we didn't get any rights till the 60's, still have driving while black issues, etc. That's my thinking.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:53 pm
"Oh and I also discounted your opinion in this issue because to me it's like, what is this white person gonna tell me about what words I should or shouldn't give power to." At least you appear to agree that you are the one that gives the n-word the power to hurt. Whether you should or shouldn't is another issue. That's all I've been trying to say. Thanks for understanding my point. And just so you know.....a GAY person, no matter what color his skin is, knows all about hate, discrimination, name calling, and oppression. Blacks were forced into slavery a few hundred years ago.....but gay people were forced into gas chambers during the Holocaust. Black people got the civil rights act a few decades ago but gay people are being denied basic rights in our legislation TODAY. Please don't lecture me about oppression.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 3:36 pm
Just as an aside, the MF word may have been a word used to denigrate blacks. It was used to describe the purposeful inbreeding of black slaves, sometimes sons to their own mothers. Some sources say it was an expression for the white males who routinely raped black women. I have no problem with people standing up and saying you can't use that language around me. In fact, I think it's noble to call people to be respectful. And uh, while I'm saying that I'll put my administrator hat on briefly - let's not forget to be respectful to each other here. I realize these can be volatile conversations, but keep it civil. 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 3:43 pm
Why would your son make sure that there was going to be some other Black people there at this White friend's party? What difference does that make? I assume that his friend invited him because he was his friend, not because he was Black or White? I understand how you might feel that Sanfran as a White guy couldn't understand how Black people feel and how you as a straight person can't understand how a gay person might feel. But even if the attempt is inadequate, how can we start to come to any understanding if we don't try to appreciate each other's feelings. Finally, I greatly respect your being "real". That's one of the things I like about you!
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 4:29 pm
Because he didn't want to be the only black person there.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:11 pm
Do you think that it is a good thing that he worries about being the only black person there? If I invite a black friend over, should I be concerned that he may be bothered that there may be no other black people here? I'm not being sarcastic - it just didn't occur to me. I obviously haven't experienced the same thing that black people have but I can say that I have been to parties where I was the only white guy.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:38 pm
Don't know if it's good or not. When I was going to school I was mostly the only black person in my classes and it was uncomfortable for me. So it's probably the same for him. I remember when I was in private school in 3rd grade. Some kids and I were at this table for art or something and I was the only black kid at the table. One of the white kids asked why was the palm of my hand white but the other side was black. I don't remember what I said but another white kid said it was cause the color was worn off so the other kid that had asked said well then you should wear off the other side so you can look like us.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 6:58 pm
There were only 3 black students in my high school of almost 2500; two of them were really good friends of mine, fraternal twins - one boy, one girl. I dated the boy a handful of times till my dad found out and said if I continued, he'd kill the boy. I believed him, so I stopped. I asked him if it was hard for him being in such a minority, but if it bothered him, he didn't say. He had such a good sense of humor, I was never sure if it was self defense or just his real attitude about life. I remember once in the summer, we were at a lake, and I was trying my darndest to get tan. He looked me at kind of funny at one point and in his usual joking style said something like 'You know, I don't get it. Y'all are always picking on us black folk, so why are you trying so hard to look like us." I still remember laughing so hard at the irony and his way of seeing things. He was a great guy, maybe the nicest I ever dated, it was all downhill from there!
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:10 pm
Yeah my friends and I have said that too Kar bout the tanning and also how women are plumping their lips and stuff.
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Teachmichigan
Member
07-22-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 8:50 pm
Shoot, one of my black girlfriends in college still tanned w/us out in the courtyard -- she had tan lines just like the rest of us. They were just a bit darker! 
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:52 pm
I live in a very intergrated community and my kids have been brought up to pick their friends based on the inside rather than the outside. My oldest got into trouble in school only one time. He was in 8th grade and this kid called him the n word, my son beat the crap outta him. While I don't condone violence and I have taught my kids to settle their differences with words, I did not give him any additional punishment because I felt this kid got what he deserved for calling my son out of his name. My kids don't go around calling caucasians the H word or the C word and it is not acceptable for them to use the N word or have it used against them. And I think it's caa caa to be lectured on how it's our fault if we let words hurt us, blah blah blah. That's like blaming the victim for the crime. I think it was correct to take Nick aside and explain the facts of life to him and to those other kids. The one kid knew it was wrong to use that word and it was wrong of Nick to encourage it's use. Those kids use that word to the wrong person and all hell will break loose. There are words that should not be used, names that should not be called and that is one of them.
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Wendo
Member
08-07-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:45 pm
Hmm, I wonder if people would have a problem if I said I discounted someones opinion purely on the fact that their skin was black? I wonder how that would go over? Hmmmm.
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