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WifeSwap - Controversial 2/9 Episode

The TVClubHouse: Other Reality Shows ARCHIVES: Archives for 2005-3: WifeSwap: WifeSwap - Controversial 2/9 Episode users admin

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Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:08 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Okay..,..I just watched the show and then played catch up with this thread.

Wow.

I see there is still a lot of misinformation out there.

For the record, I am a gay man.

I was gay for as long as I can remember....even before I knew what "gay" was. When I discovered that my feelings had a name and then realized it was considered "deviant", I was devastated. I held that secret and tried to live a lie for YEARS because of all the misinformation I was surrounded with. It was very frightening secret to keep and it was very damaging for a child to feel forced to live a lie like that.

I was never molested as a child. Never. Not by any man, boy, woman, or girl, or beast.

People are still calling my orientation a "lifestyle". They are still trying to get into my head via a lab somewhere to find "proof" whether or not I decided to be gay. Saying that my life is a "style" that I have chosen is insulting. The fact of the matter is that being a christian, a sea captain, a nun, a burglar, a farmer, or a pimp ARE all "lifestyle choices". Being gay is NOT. In fact, there are both gay AND straight christians, sea captains, nuns, burglars, farmers, and pimps. A lifestyle is how you choose to live your life, not who you fall in love with.

Please note. Unlike any of the posters that I have noticed in this thread, I have firsthand experience to testify that I know for a FACT that I never chose to be gay. As much as people with anti-gay views dislike that FACT, it is still EVIDENCE, as far as I am concerned. Firsthand testimony is accepted as evidence in court, but for some reason, if the reason for someone being gay can't be quantified with a mathematical equation or a laboratory experiment, then people assume that I must be lying.

I am NOT lying. I am gay and I never chose to be gay. You can choose to believe me or you can choose to assume that my being gay carries no weight in a discussion of whether or not I chose to be gay. (Hint - one of those choices is choosing ignorance over truth)

I also know that my orientation is not a "lifestyle". It is an ORIENTATION. I had a homosexual orientation when I was a farm boy in west Texas, and I still had the same orientation in college. I will admit that I did, indeed, attempt to live a heterosexual lifestyle when I was in college. The thing is....when I was trying to live a heterosexual lifestyle, it was just a "lifestyle" because it was a chosen, fake "style" that I created for myself in order to "pass". It didn't work because it was a LIE.....and that lie hurt a lot of people, including myself.

The bottom line is that as a gay man, it is SO difficult hearing people who don't even know me making assumptions that I must be gay because of something that happened to me when I was a kid or that I am only gay because I chose to be gay.

If anyone here believes that, then I must tell you....you are wrong. Period. Whether I can prove to you that you are wrong is more difficult because I can't offer you a Vulcan mind-meld in order to share with you what is in my mind and memories....but the truth is that being gay is NOT a choice.

Okay now....that being said.....

I thought the show was great. Yes, it was extreme and FOX went out of their way to edit it to highlight their differences and show the most drama, but I found it quite accurate, too. It was the hypocrisy of the "christian" mom who outright refused to acknowledge that the gay moms were good parents that was so infuriating. She had the same outlook that homophobic politicians do.....a self righteous, judgemental view that NO amount of debate or understanding can change.

She CHOSE to live a judgemental lifestyle and she CHOSE to not take anything positive from the lesbian mom.

It was both infuriating, sad, and a perfect example of the attitude that gay people face EVERY SINGLE DAY.

<whew!>

This was not meant to offensive to anyone, just informative. Being a gay man, I feel like I am in a good place to educate people on some of their incorrect assumptions.

Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:23 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thanks, Sanfran.. btw.. I'm also gay not by choice but by design (although being multiple masked that for quite some time) so I'm speaking from that perspective as well though I have less time being "out" even to me.


Wow.. so the show I saw tonight wasn't THIS show with.. well yeah.. tonight's show which is not this show had the family living in an RV, not a converted bus and that husband and rest of family seemed totally in sync.. the description up thread from Julie and Mocha sounds like that dad will be sort of an enforcer type.

Look forward to seeing it on Wednesday... over to other thread for what I saw tonight.

Sunshyne4u
Member

06-17-2003

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 1:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
when we are talking about biopsychological issues.

in past posts, I was always talking medical testing and physiological changes. I know my work and my terminology from years on the job and I have said that I am not up on the very latest in medical research. I asked for links on the professed absolute medical proof eluded to....I rec'd NONE.

Out of curiousity though, Seamonkey and Sanfran, do you not know people who are BI or Gay for parts of their life by choice? or have fallen in love with the other sex even after making a solid commitment to the gay lifestyle?

}Am I truly the only one who knows people like that? Not everyone was forced to act out a lie. Many people from the hippy era were openly Bi- since the 1970s.

Must be the West Coast anything goes lifestyle here. We are so open to discussion on any topic.



Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 2:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sanfran and I are both on the west coast as well.

I think in the hippie era there were many people experimenting.. what they called bi-curious. People can choose to "act out" anything they want.. clearly there are many gay actors who play straight characters and vice versa.

I know women who are more in the bisexual part of the spectrum but I don't know anyone who claims to have simply "chosen" to be what they are.. I'm not particularly active in the community locally but have good friends all over the country (US) as well as from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, South Africa, Scotland, UAEmirates, Germany, etc., mostly lesbian, some gay, one transexual and not a single one thinks there is an ounce of choice involved. Some may have committed to another orientation but once they realized what their orientation truly is.. that is the only thing that made sense. I'm not saying this is all inclusive because clearly I don't know everyone.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 6:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Excellent and well thought out post Sanfran! I have always felt being gay was not a choice.

My sister married a man that tried so hard not "to be gay." He thought (hoped) if he found someone who made him laugh and loved him, then he could live a straight life. He did this because of all the pressure he felt to be "normal." (How sad that makes me feel.)

Naturally it did not "work." After a few years (really only 4) they did get an annulment/divorce. It was very hard on my sister, cuz he really did love her and vise versa. He realized "playing straight" was not going to work for him. (otherwise my sister may have stayed in that marriage. She has since gotten an annulment, remarried and just had a baby.)

When people say it (being gay) is a lifestyle choice, it just proves how ignorant/wrong they are.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 7:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
You did receive at least one URL to review, Sunshyne.

From my post of Friday, February 11, 2005 - 4:11 am


quote:

Oh, and here's an interesting summary of the role of genetics in homosexuality I found:

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~kmayeda/HC92/studies.html




Granted, now you're asking for "absolute" proof, but since there is no such thing in many areas of medical research, a preponderance of the evidence will have to do.

Watching2
Member

07-07-2001

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
{{{{Josh}}}}} As always, you have my empathy and total support. I believe everything you say since I have many, many friends who will attest to the same thing. I've never once met anyone who said they "chose" to be gay. I also get upset with the "lifestyle" terminology. I'm a straight mother of three, but my "lifestyle" isn't the same as most of the other str8 mothers who live on my street, not to mention the rest of the population.

From experience, I can say I believe it is possible to love someone outside of your given orientation, but it doesn't change the fact that there is something "missing" nor that there would be many many challenges and hardships to maintain a relationship as a couple. I have a gay friend who along with myself feels we are perfect for one another in so many ways, but orientation. So we accept it for what it is. We love each other and if it was another lifetime under different circumstances, just maybe we would have made a great couple, but in this lifetime, we'll be the best of friends and be grateful we have found that in each other. Peace out! :-)

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
This is an exercise I use with my First Year college students as we talk about diversity issues. It's one of the few times I get some of them to react to something -- and it is surprisingly positive. Sometimes flipping it around like this gives a different perspective on the issue of choice and other assumptions.

Heterosexual Questionnaire

1. What caused your heterosexuality?
2. When and how did you first decide you were heterosexual?
3. Is it possible you heterosexuality is just a phase you may outgrow?
4. Is it possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same gender?
5. If you have never slept with a person of the same gender, how do you know you would not prefer that?
6. If heterosexuality is normal, why are a disproportionate number of mental health patients heterosexual?
7. To whom have you disclosed you heterosexuality?
8. Why do heterosexuals always feel compelled to seduce others into their sexual orientation?
9. The great majority of child molesters are heterosexual. So you really consider I safe to expose children to heterosexual teachers and service providers?
10. How can you enjoy a fully satisfying sexual experience or a deep emotional rapport with a person of the opposite gender, when the obvious physical, biological, and temperamental differences are so vast? How can a man understand what sexually pleases a woman and vice versa?
11. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?
12. Marriage receives a great deal of societal support, yet divorce continues to increase. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?
13. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive is everyone were heterosexual like you?
14. A disproportionate number of criminals, welfare recipients, and other irresponsible or antisocial types are heterosexuals. Why would anyone want to hire a heterosexual for a responsible position?
15. Do heterosexuals hate and/or distrust others of their own gender? Is that what makes them heterosexual?
16. Why do you insist on making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can’t you just be what you are and keep it quiet?


Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Pris-that is inspiring. What a good way to make people think!

Jodied75
Member

08-26-2004

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Josh, awesome post. If you read any of mine you'd know how I feel about these issues. A lot of what I said was modded or removed LOL. I'm so glad you posted what you did, because then it's coming straight from the horse's mouth (NO, you are NOT straight, nor a horse, LOL).

Anyway, just wanted to say happy that you're here.

Prisoner, that is a great quiz. Maybe it will open up the minds of people who still believe (in this day and age), that sexual orientation is a choice. I'm glad you have them looking at this while they're in college, too, at a time when people may be more open to accepting something outside of their own box.

Watching2
Member

07-07-2001

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:09 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Love that quiz everytime I see it, Prisoner!

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Prisoner, one of the reasons I really like that quiz is that it exposes the inherent heterosexism/heteronormavie assumptions about homosexual "causality."

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 10:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sunshyne, you just amaze me. First, I never said there was indisputable medical proof. I said that we have as much proof as we do that handedness is biological. If you're going to throw stones, at least quote me accurately, please.

Second, we were talking about homosexuality and its diagnosis, and you referred to it as abnormal. However, homosexuality is not studied the way we study cancer cells, so the term is inaccurate. I have also provided a definition of "abnormal psychology" so that you can understand why your use of the term abnormal is offensive. Abnormal psychology is the study of mental disorders.

Third, you also said that the word "variety" would never be found in a medical context. Apparently you have little experience in the field of genetics, where hundreds of textbooks have the word Variety or Variation in the title!

I believe you are trying very hard here to be kind and to be enlightened, yet it seems to me that you want to disregard the opinions of people with personal experience in both studying neuroscience and in being homosexual themselves. Perhaps if you truly want to be understand, you might consider these positions more thoughtfully.

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sunshyne4u - "Out of curiousity though, Seamonkey and Sanfran, do you not know people who are BI or Gay for parts of their life by choice? "

I live in the heart of the gay Castro District of San Francisco. I know LOTS of gay people. I don't know ANY that ever chose to be gay.

I ask you....how can you choose to have romantic, butterflies-in-the-stomach, stars-in-the-eyes, passionately-in-love type feelings for anyone? You don't "choose" what sex you fall in love with.

As I see it, a gay person is GAY. Period. He or she can choose to be totally upfront about it, or choose to hide their feelings and just try to "pass"by acting out with members of the opposite sex. The same goes for non-gay people acting out sexually with a gay person...although I don't know any non-gay person that chooses to try to "pass" in the gay community.

What you are describing sounds to me like "bisexuality". If a person is bisexual, he or she can indeed choose to pursue a relationship when they have romantic feelings for EITHER sex. A bisexual in a gay relationship could very well fall in love with a member of the opposite sex.

However, a totally GAY person does not have those same kinds of romantic/fulfillment/sexual feelings towards members of the opposite sex.

I think your confusion lies in knowing some people that are bisexual, who can have those feelings for both sexes....and who have chosen to be with one sex or the other (Anne Heche comes to mind). Many people are bisexual, but people that are gay have only the choice to be honest about who they are or to live a lie.

I know I never made such a choice, except when, due to societal pressure, I chose to live a lie, which was damaging to me and the woman that was madly in love with me. That was the wrong thing for me to do, but at the time I felt I didn't have the option of honesty without also having the burden of being reviled by everyone around me. So, I did, in fact, "choose" to be straight....but since I WASN'T heterosexual, all I succeeded in doing was "passing" and living in a relationship that was emotionally unfullfilling and sexually unsatisfactory and it eventually bred contempt and heartbreak. I discovered that I CANNOT choose to be straight.

Because some people (bisexuals) are in the position to make a gender choice in their romantic relationships, it doesn't follow that all (GAY) people do.

Too many people thing of orientation as a black and white issue. It is black at one end of the spectrum and white at the other, but there is a varying shades of gray area in between. I. like most of my friends, are at one end of the spectrum and not in that gray area.

------------------------

Just want to add that I am not trying to hijack this thread....I'm just answering Sunshyne's question that was posed after my post last night)

Sunshyne4u
Member

06-17-2003

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 6:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    

thanks for the links Prisoner...at least you tried to get me some info. I am aware of all those OLD studies.

Each one is flawed though, that isnt the way a blind study is done..

For instance Institute for Biological Sciences in San Diego, Simon LeVay released the results of his study on the biological differences in sexual orientation. He autopsied nineteen gay men, sixteen straight men, and six straight women. He found that the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) was two times bigger in heterosexual men than in homosexual men and heterosexual women (Horgan)

This research has now been done more deeply. The cells have been studied and the proteins analyzed. The confusion was the ONE of the gay male brains didnt fit the pattern. Then it was released that all but ONE man died of AIDS /HIV. It was in those brains that the difference was noted and it is now considered a side-effect of the brain involvement of the disease.

Considering how many thousands of men and women are gay/ lesbian, why cant a real study be done using hundreds of individuals?? I feel science is letting everyone down. The government wouldn't have a leg to stand on if science could prove a point.
**
Interesting how my original posts arent there anymore. My exact wording was very specific and nonattacking in my original post which is being continuously MISQUOTED in order to make me look like I am AGAINST samesex unions.

Feb 10 1538 I would love links if you have them Karunna or some solid search words that I could look up. Other than Hypothalmus changes I know of NO neurological breakthroughs but I have been out of the loop for a while so apologies if new info is available
From what I have read, that comment is not correct. I have years of medical background and less than 40% of gays have any genetic precursors or enzymatic/ hormonal problems. The percentage is even lower for lesbians


Karunna, although I have been polite, you have now misquoted me AGAIN and I am tired of being targeted. Second, we were talking about homosexuality and its diagnosis, and you referred to it as abnormal. I never said Homosexuality IS ABNORMAL. You have MADE that up. Anyone who knows me is aware that I know that it is a normally occurring state.

This is exactly what discrimination and hate is about. Everyone gang up on a person because they are being set up by someone who takes snippets of a sentence/ spins it/ then puts it back to colour an argument.

The word CHOICE was used in regards to those who made their choice to marry men/women because they made the choice to try and fit into society's norms. Also the people I have known which have made their independant choices in life.

What a sad world we live in if people feel that they dont have a choice. Part of being human is making choices.

(the comparison to being lefthanded Works only for some Gays/ Lesbians NOT 100%)

This is truly the last post for me. }It is a useless endeavor to try to have a rational unbiased discussion with biased people.

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:32 am "Many fell deeply in love with the spouse but still felt like something was missing. Many gays/ lesbians are BI-sexuals technically. "

Funny how people agree with me yet still want their pound of flesh.










Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 7:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sunshyne, since you were unable to find it, here is your original post where you first used the word abnormality in referring to sexual orientation. Your original post is still there, funny you would think there is some sort of conspiracy here that removed it. It is still in the original Wife Swap thread. You essentially implied that it was a genetic abnormality.


quote:

By the way, I was raised on a farm and we had a sheep that was ambiguous. It 'looked' female yet the males wanted nothing to do with it. It lived a long life yet never conceived lambs. I truly believe in genetic abnormalities happen in ALL animals even people.




After that you went into great detail about why you thought the word "abnormal" did apply, even supplying the definition for abnormal and saying you were using it in a medical context; and you said the word variety didn't "make sense", and yet again referred to the variation as a "genetic problem".


quote:

Tp use the word "variety" over "abnormality" in regards to genetic problems doesnt make sense and you will never see it in a true medical paper.




Yet now you are denying that you ever called it abnormal? Your own words contradict you.

In addition, now you are saying that the word choice only referred to people who tried to fit into society's norms. However previously you said:


quote:

do you not know people who are BI or Gay for parts of their life by choice? or have fallen in love with the other sex even after making a solid commitment to the gay lifestyle?




These two things are clearly not the same.

If you are offended by our debating these issues with you, I am sorry. However, I'm finding your statements terribly inconsistent.

I have no desire in a pound of anyone's flesh. I am very interested in correcting what I see are as misstatements and misperceptions about science and homosexuality. Such misstatements only serve to hurt people, however well intentioned they might be.




Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 8:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:32 am - "So you agree with me. They MADE a CHOICE and they preferred to marry and have relations with a man then later a woman.

That is a choice of behavior, not of orientation. Those are two mutually exclusive things. Personally I believe that it's better to be honest about one's sexuality rather than lie about it and hurt others (and oneself) in the long run.

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 2:32 am - "Many gays/ lesbians are BI-sexuals technically."

But many are NOT. Those of us that are NOT bisexual do NOT have a choice to make, except when we choose to live a life of honesty and pride as opposed to living a life of lies and deception.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I can choose to color my hair, but it doesn't make me a redhead...

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That is the perfect metaphor, Prisoner06.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Why, thank you! Sometimes I get it right. :-)

Watching2
Member

07-07-2001

Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 7:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well some of us WERE redheads in our younger years, but now we need a little help. GAH! Gee... I wonder of whom I might be speaking? LOL