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Chieko
Member
11-20-2003
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:24 am
It was Dan, the son, that was an infrequent bather, not Greg, the father.
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Scout
Member
01-20-2005
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:45 am
I, too, thought this show was more like what I expected the show to be all about. Both sides seemed to come away from the experience with something positive. There were a few "cringing" moments. Couldn't believe when military mom cited "Eve's sin" and that we women still have to pay for it. I've known lots of kids like Dan. Some grew out of it, some didn't. It's not a good thing to believe all your views are the "only" right ones. He was too blind to realize that he was doing the exact same thing as he was accusing everyone else of doing - only believing his own viewpoints were correct. It's okay to question things, how else can you learn? But he was rude and I think he just likes taking the "anti" view of everything. I wonder if he and his mom agree on all things, or if he takes the opposite side there, too, just for argument's sake. I also think he just liked to hear himself talk. He kept following her around even if she left the room. He's going to have a hard time in life, I'm afraid. Who is ever going to want to be around him for long? He'll never be able to keep a job unless he can learn to listen as well as speak. One problem I do have with these shows is when they tell the parents they need to spend more time with their kids. Sometimes, your job doesn't give you that many options - especially when you're trained and work in a factory or mill. In our town, a paper factory employs much of the population. When they are busy, they require employees to work overtime. Sometimes, they are given the choice to volunteer, but most times they are expected to work the extra hours they're told. These people work hard for their families and children and it's not that they stay at work because they like it better than at home. I've known people who worked seven days a week, twelve hours a day when the plant was busy. Months and months on end. Some people just don't have the opportunity to choose. I was surprised the dad was able to cut back on his hours.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 9:45 am
He did eventually put his arm around her. I took his sitting still as just being so emotional over the situation he didn't know what to do. Even when she said she loved him, he seemed to get embarrassed and said something like "aw, go on". I got the feeling that he's a guy who isn't used to showing emotion, making it especially difficult in front of the camera.
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Seamonkey
Member
09-07-2000
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:13 am
I liked the growth for both families. And at least it sounded like the activist quaker mom and her husband were going to try to rein in the son to get him to realize that if he just shouted down others and didn't listen to them, he wasn't getting anywhere with making his views known. (Though most of his statements seemed more like anti-other views rather than actual views)
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:31 am
Honestly, I didn't think the son was any more pushy about his views than was the military mom. She tried to shout him down and wasn't willing to listen either. It's rare that situations that escalate like that are one or the other person. Usually if just one of the two will get quiet, calm down and listen, they both benefit. I think they got on each other's nerves because they had the same need-to-be-right thing going on.
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Scout
Member
01-20-2005
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:41 am
I think the military mom might have respected him more if he hadn't started in on her the minute she walked through the door and started speaking. It put her on the defensive, as he meant it to.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 12:54 pm
Well, perhaps Scout. But we always have a choice about how to react to someone. It's certainly more difficult if someone is coming right at ya, and the son was pretty unrelenting. But she had some pretty darn strong opinions of her own to share.
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Scout
Member
01-20-2005
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 1:00 pm
She definitely did have her own opinions. He just seemed very intimidating to me - a very aggressive pacifist. When he was washing dishes and stating his views calmly about how he thought chores should be shared - then I definitely heard what he was trying to say. He's a kid, though, and hopefully he'll learn to express himself better.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 1:48 pm
Irregardless he's the child and needed to stay in a child's place and not smartmouth the adult.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 2:01 pm
heh. No one should smartmouth anyone, whatever age they are. 
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 2:31 pm
No kidding and considering someone else has mentioned the HOT TOPIC! <RA> Youngsters who are raised with no strong values and no toleration of religion often are very outspoken. This young man was amazingly rude and frankly agressive. His finger pointing and loud talking was overthetop! What amazed me was his dad who simply stood quietly watching (showing no ability to parent IMHO) I truly felt bad for the dad as he knew he had no control. The Christian woman had the rights to her opinion and Dan didnt want to admit that HE was the one who was unwilling to have an openmind. He wouldnt even let her speak but simply talked right over her. His comment that the Bible was 'written' a 100 yrs after the 'carpenter who talked alot' died is also incorrect. The book of Ephesians for instance was written IN Ephesus, Turkey by one of the disciples of Jesus from that time period! On the Isle of Patmos the book of Revelation was written by a disciple of Jesus from that time! Mind you, I do agree that the Bible as we know it is a edited version released around the time of Constantine. I dont know, it just seems that misinformation is what divides people. This kid, Dan, had probably never done any research of his own and was just blindly repeating what he was told/ raised with. On a personal note, I have met people like that. They have their own view of religion (often based on partial info) and it is viewed as fact. By the way, I've been to Ephesus and it is amazing!! The main street was lined in white Marble and was Seven kilometers long. They had running water and a sewer system under the streets }and that is from 600 BC to 400 AD. Incredible!!
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 2:46 pm
And Mohammed was illiterate but we still have the Qur'an.
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Llkoolaid
Member
08-01-2001
| Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 4:46 pm
Although I think the boy was rude and should learn a calmer more effective way to communicate, I couldn't help but notice at the beginning of the show his mother actually smiling and encouraging this behavior.
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Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Friday, March 04, 2005 - 11:20 am
I was very put off by the son's actions. Yes, Military Mom did put forth her opinions just as strongly, but the son verbally attacked her when it wasn't necessary, to the point of being outright cruel. Case in point, during the regligous discussion, even tho this kid could see he was upsetting her to the point of tears, he did not back off, in fact he stepped up his attack on her. He was actually enjoying "twisting the knife" as it were, and I could not believe the dad just sat there and let the entire thing happen. I've never thought it was wrong to raise children to express their feelings and explore themselves, but there has to be some kind of balance. Children who are raised to explore only their own feelings usually grow up to care for no one's feelings but their own. I think that is what happened in this case. This kid has no respect for anyone who doesn't feel the same way he does... It surprises me that such a liberal family could raise such a closed minded individual.
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Auntiemike
Member
09-17-2001
| Friday, March 04, 2005 - 2:00 pm
Makes you wonder if this peace promoting son knows how to be a peacemaker. I think he had a lot of issues that had nothing to do with liberalism but with his adoptive status. This was only mentioned briefly (that he was adopted at 4 years old) but both parents admitted he was a very angry child and he showed such disrespect to adults, even his own father. I think he could benefit from some intensive therapy to address some issues that have been manifested in his behavior through the 'non-parenting' of his parents. They even admitted that they had given up and are trying to get him out of the house. Maybe his Mom should focus less on the Bush administration and political evils and focus more on being an effective parent on the homefront. IMHO.
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Llkoolaid
Member
08-01-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 12:41 pm
Or maybe she should just kick his A&&.
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Auntiemike
Member
09-17-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 3:35 pm
LOL, that would probably be the most satisfying (for Mom, at least). I'm not sure it would impact the son at all. I thought it was interesting that this family had two sons yet I couldn't even tell you if we ever heard a word come out of the other one. He, too, is being raised by the same liberal parents, but didn't have the same issues his older brother did. He must have learned, at an early age, to keep quiet and observe. I wonder what makes him tick and how he survives in this home.
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 4:13 pm
The interesting thing about the freedom-loving family is that they are Quakers and they expressed all the hallmarks of Quakerism in the episode--they were the antithesis of the authoritarian family with whom they "swapped." Like many Jews in Philadelphia, I went to Quaker schools and I could really relate to what the family was doing and why the young man on the show spoke out the way he did. For Quakers, pacifism is an article of faith, not one of politics; they simply refuse to believe in violence as a solution to problems (well, there was that minor incident with the Paxton Rebellion on the Pennsylvania frontier in the 1760s, but the Quakers only THREATENED to take up arms against them). So for them to advocate non-violent solutions is right in line with what one would expect of them as surely as they would observe Easter. But the more important issue is probably about how the young gentleman on the show spoke, since that seems troubling to many. Speaking--in itself, or speaking out, or speaking up--is an especially important part of Quaker faith. For those who have never been to a Friends meeting, there is no sermon proper; instead, people come to church, sit down, and wait for their "inner light" to speak to them. When the inner light speaks, you stand up and address the congregation with the words of wisdom it has imparted to you. This part of the Quaker faith has made Quakers leaders in the fight for the abolition of slavery and for equal rights for women. But we are not born into our eventual voice; we have to find it through whatever path we take to find our "inner light." This is a path, though, that can take a while to achieve. I really valued my Quaker education because the school I attended encouraged us to question things and to find where our questions would lead us. In the case of the young gentleman, it is obvious it has taken him to some places of truth. He obviously has a better concept of what is going on in the world than the authoritarian-loving mother did. She even thought Iraqis were responsible for the WTC and that we should be unquestioning of our leaders! So he obviously knows the importance of questioning and looking for the right answers, even if they are upsetting. Of course he has some ideas many find anathema and he may say them in a way that repels some. The same thing happened when Quaker layman John Woolman published his "Some Considerations on the Keeping of Negroes" in 1754; it was considered radical by all except the most devoted Quakers, who looked at it as an expression of morality and part of the exploration of his inner light. I trust that with a few more years searching the young gentleman on the show will find a more moderate voice to express himself. Until then, I salute him for taking chances in the demonstration of faith!
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Auntiemike
Member
09-17-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:07 pm
I beg to differ (with respect, of course) that this young man showed absolutely no "demonstration of faith" in what I saw. A faith, in and of itself, was repelled by him as non-existent. He mocked the military mother's faith and said there was no such thing. I do not think he showed any Quaker/peaceful faithful attributes in his interactions towards her, nor to his father. There is nothing wrong with questioning things and I applaud anyone who does (and, yes, even Fundamental Christians should do that) but to dismiss others the way this young man did was not a very admirable, nor acceptable way to spread the faith or truth of his "faith". Maybe he needs to learn to "walk the talk".
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Schoolmarm
Member
02-18-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:35 pm
I've never seen or heard of Quakers interrupting each other at Friend's meetings....Speaking up is one thing, being rude is another. The son was rather against Christ, and with the Friends meeting that I'm familiar with, they ARE Christian, and do also adhear to the Old Testament. The son sounded rather "Unitarian" or agnostic to me, or maybe even atheist. I know that there are at least three kinds of Quakers, and maybe he belongs to a sect that holds his beliefs. I lived in West Branch, Iowa (Herbert Hoover birthplace) and they have all three kinds of Quaker there. I really don't know any rude Quakers. Most will make their points but arguing is not fondly thought of.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:39 pm
It's like what I tell my children, 'it's the TONE you are using, not the words that I object to'.
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Seamonkey
Member
09-07-2000
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 5:51 pm
I didn't get the idea that the older son considered himself Quaker or Christian or anything but an atheist. And there is nothing wrong with having those beliefs.. as Annie says.. it was more the TONE.. (and, perhaps as his mother suggested, the aroma, too.. LOL) This appears to be an informative site: Quaker Site
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 6:02 pm
Well, I think there are people from all denominations who behave badly--and of course none of the episode took place inside a Friends meeting house, where the young gentleman would not have interrupted anyone, I hope! And I certainly knew Quakers in my school--there were relatively few Quakers in Friends Select School, ironically enough--who were less than polite. But the process of discovery and communal egalitarianism is always derived through argument and consensus, as it has been in Philadelphia's Quaker community since William Penn got his charter in 1680 (I *think* that's the right year!). Quakers didn't start off in the forefront of abolition or suffrage; their faith, through discussion and argumentation in meeting houses, took them there. The same thing is true of their dedication to pacifism and working toward discovery. I also know that as a teenager I rejected my Judaism and refused to have a bat mitzvah, wouldn't go to temple, etc. I don't worry about a kid who pretends to turn his back on his religion or who blithely writes off Christ as a carpenter who talked a lot. That image of Christ, in fact, tethers him to the Christ figure instead of tearing him from Him, because the young gentleman on Wife Swap was just a student who talked too much--he has made himself into a reflection of the characterists he (perhaps mistakenly) sees in the deity. Again, it is part of the process of truth Quakerism teaches with its emphasis on the inner light. I see him as part of the rich tradition of the faithful testing their faith... And Annie, I understand and agre with what you say. That's why I think it's so important to understand Dan in the context of finding his voice. FWIW, he was adopted because his mother, who was best friends with the WS couple, died of leukemia and his father was out of the picture.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 6:17 pm
quote:That's why I think it's so important to understand Dan in the context of finding his voice.
I don't think his beliefs are what's making him an obnoxious teenager who doesn't know how to respect his elders. That's a parenting problem
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 6:20 pm
Honestly, I didn't have a problem with Dan except his apparent lack of bathing (ew). I do think he had a much more forceful personality than either of his parents, and they did seem to be overwhelmed by him. Yet at the end, mom and dad did talk to him about its not what you say, it's how you say it. And through the course of the military mom's visit, he seemed to have learned how to modulate his tone himself, being softer and clearer, yet still firm, when insisting on doing the dishes. It would be nice if we all learned that fast. I find his questioning admirable and salvific. If more young people were that interested and educated in the world situation and US involvement in the world, we'd all be better off.
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