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Is Deathly Hallows Appropriate For An...

The TVClubHouse: Movies & Library ARCHIVES: Movies & Library 2007 ~ 2008: Harry Potter: Is Deathly Hallows Appropriate For An Elementary School Library? users admin

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Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:57 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hermione69 a private message Print Post    
My library supervisor emailed all of the librarians yesterday to see who has already read the book and wanting feedback. It seems that an elementary school principal is concerned that the book is not appropriate for an elementary school library. Bad language was cited as the main concern.

I told my supervisor I have read the book and she asked my thoughts on its appropriateness for an elementary school library. This was my response to her -

"There is bad language. It's not rampant, but there are times of stress and anger when a character will say a bad word. It is a darker book, too, as is fitting with the age of the main characters.

My personal feeling, if I were an elementary librarian, would be to get the book. It's a wonderful story and the prevailing themes of love and courage and triumph are so much more prominent than any instances of bad language."

However, I don't work in an elementary school library and I don't have children myself and I was wondering what you guys think. It would be interesting to get additional feedback.

Thanks!

Calamity
Member

10-18-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:24 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Calamity a private message Print Post    
I had to think about this (and do some paperwork).

There was very little bad language that I noticed and it wasn't used casually. I can understand why any such words would be a concern though. I think a bigger issue would be the losses and very dark moments. I do think mature kids will be able to handle the book but the very young and sensitive are probably going to be terribly traumatized by some of the things that happen (who am I kidding - I'm traumatized). I'd recommend getting the book but wouldn't be surprised if some parents object (beyond those claims that the series promotes the occult, that is). Because I do agree that the messages about loyalty, courage, wisdom, sacrifice, and love are very well expressed and important.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
I don't think I would want my elementary age child to read this book or the last few. I think it's a lil too advanced for them at this age.

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Hermi, I think I would mention to the other librarian the throngs of children waiting in line hours and sometimes days ahead of the release of the new books, how many of the kids reading stay up all night to read them, and that they read these books over and over again.

One of my jobs as mom that I take rather seriously is showing my kids reading can be fun and it's not a chore. I get excited when I see kids discover the love of reading. I've seen kids waiting for each new book to be released, kids sitting and reading books that are 700 and 800 pages long, and have discussions that show they really do understand the books. At a time when books have to compete with TV, computers, movies, and a gazillion toys kids are eating the series up! I mean, how freaking exciting is that????

There's not many books or series I can think of that get kids this excited and makes them want to read and that to me would negate much of the concern over the rare instance of bad language throughout the books.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Oh and the language is not what I would have an issue with.

Y2krazy
Member

09-17-2002

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 8:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Y2krazy a private message Print Post    
My opinion on this is....if the child has read and understand ALL the books in order of publication, that is to say PS, CofS, PofA, GofF,OofP, & HBP..then the child will be able to handle the depth, sorrow, and profanity of the final book.

Beth4freedom
Member

10-24-2003

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beth4freedom a private message Print Post    
Mocha said: "Oh and the language is not what I would have an issue with."

Same here. I see lots of "ifs" above--if the child has read AND understood all the books, if the child isn't mature enough or is sensitive in nature. I would not like to see the book sit on a shelf for random selection unsupervised. Hopefully many of the children who waited so long in line will read the book along WITH their parents, who can provide a sounding board. I remember I think it was the New York Times review that said that grief counseling would be needed in connection with the book. It should be rated PG like in the movies, definitely. Traumatization would definitely be the issue, not language.

Sewmommy
Member

07-06-2004

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:09 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sewmommy a private message Print Post    
I know at my dds (7) school there are only the first few HP books. At least the last I checked. Now granted her school only goes to 2nd grade, so there aren't too many kids wanting to read them. She had to get special permission last year in 1st grade to get chapter books at all.(whole other story) All the other HP books were at our other elementary school(3-5)
DD(11) has finished book DH, but we did have to have a few discussions throughout. She almost didn't want to continue she was so apprehensive about what was going to happen. After discussing who she most concerned about she was able to continue. DD(7) has read the first book to herself already and loved it. I will let her go through PoA, but she will have to wait a few years before I will let her continue.
I will also add that the language is not the issue and agree with Y2krazy and Beth

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hermione69 a private message Print Post    
It's funny about the language... the language is what the principal specifically mentioned being concerned about which is why I addressed it. I agree that is the least of the issues, but I think its easier for people to pick apart things that are more concrete. It's easier to point at the bad word and say, "Look! This character said the "b" word!" than to try to pin down feelings or moods.

Kstme
Member

08-14-2000

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 10:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kstme a private message Print Post    
Last night, Thekid and I were watching HP movie #3 POA. I turned to her and asked if she would be hesitant to have a child under age 11 see this movie. We both agreed, the story is wonderful, but the 'darkness' can be frightening. We had watched movies #1 and #2 the day before.

IMHO, I feel the same about the books. BUT, each child is so different and their particular learning/understanding level is very individual. I read 'Gone With The Wind' when I was in the third grade and loved it. I probably didn't understand it all, at that time, but I was given access to it. So, should the library carry the book. I think yes. Does the library have restrictions? For example, some books for the older children may not be checked out by the younger ones. This can solve a lot of issues. I was on the library committee in Thekid's school district when she was in grade school and junior high. It was a VERY interesting experience!

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
First, the language isn't an issue for me.

With respect to understanding and suitability, I think that most children with enough reading and comprehension skills to want to read the book and be able to read it (it is over 600 pages) have enough ability to understand and handle the plot.

Those that are too young simply will not have the ability to read it. I'd be much more concerned about them seeing the movies than reading the books.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
I was thinking the same thing as Kstme -- put it in a restricted section where a parent signature is required. I have books I loan to HS kids, but I am VERY careful w/a few of them. My seniors can read anything they want, but my freshmen and sophomores I'm more careful with. I talk to them, look at their reading habits and if there is any question at all, talk to their parents.

I've always told my DS (12 now) he can read whatever he wants -- but this is a kid who read the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy in 3rd and 4th grade. I'm much more careful, though, about the movies he sees. It wasn't until last year that he even watched ALL of the first 3 HP movies. We'd see "edited by mom" versions. :-)

Dolphinschild
Member

06-22-2006

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dolphinschild a private message Print Post    
I think this book for kids who are maybe 5th-6th grade depending on their maturity level(as Jimmer described), but more for 7th to 12th grade levels in my oppinion.

Beth4freedom
Member

10-24-2003

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beth4freedom a private message Print Post    
Teachmichigan said "put it in a restricted section where a parent signature is required." That would seem to me to be a good compromise. I like the parent signature required part.

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 7:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hermione69 a private message Print Post    
Thanks for everyone's feedback. I appreciate it.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 7:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
As far as "typical" age goes, most librarians are taught that the reader (if elementary age) should be within a couple of years in age of the main character. That would mean you'd want the middle school kids and up for "typical" readers of Deathly Hallows. Honestly, if kids started reading HP when it first came out when they were 8 or so (an appropriate age for the first one), then their age is "perfect" for the last installment. (Not sure how that helps the current dilemma, but I know as a mom, it's made my life a LOT easier. :-) )

Weinermr
Member

08-18-2001

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Weinermr a private message Print Post    
The language - I can't verify the count, but I remember Ron saying "effing" twice, somewhere the word "shit" was used, and Mrs. Weasley called Bellatrix a "b-i-t-c-h". That's all I remember.

There is alot of death in the book, much more than any other Potter book, so this is something to consider as far as children are concerned.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 7:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Just to clarify, he actually said "effing". He did not use the actual word.

The only concern I would have is the violence, torture and death as perpetrated by the evil characters. Overall, with respect to the good characters, the moral values and message is outstanding.

Y2krazy
Member

09-17-2002

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 1:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Y2krazy a private message Print Post    
I just have to laugh about the "restricted section" LOL
Just like the Hogwarts library.

Yes Ron does use "effing" - those exact letters...and I was so into the story, myself, at the time...that it didn't clue in...that it was swearing...until later.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 7:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
Yup Y2 -- just like Hogwarts. :-) We know how effective "restricted" is when a person REALLY wants those books. :-) (Just doing my part to pacify TPTB while NOT prohibiting a book in a library.)

Westtexan
Member

07-16-2004

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 10:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Westtexan a private message Print Post    
I am an elementary school librarian (Grades K-5) and I will be ordering the book. We were K-6 and that sixth grade level makes a big difference in what I order. Since we lost 6th grade, the series isn't checked out near as much but there are a handful of 4th and 5th graders that eagerly check out the books.

I think it is almost cruel to not have all the books in a series available to children.

Also, as has been mentioned above, if the child is interested in reading and capable of comprehending the story, probably he/she can handle the content.

Finally, if a parent doesn't want his/her child to read the story, that can be an issue between the child and parent but the parent should not deny other people's children the right to read what they want.

OK, one more thought--We have much sadder stories (IMO) in the library (Charlotte's Web, Where the Red Fern Grows, Bridge to Terabithia), much darker realistic fiction (about prejudice, racism, homelessness, poverty, etc.), and the language in HP was mild--I thought.

Calamity
Member

10-18-2001

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Calamity a private message Print Post    
Excellent points, Westtexan. It's good to get a professional opinion!

When I was growing up, it was very uncommon for either my school or public library to have all the books in a series. That frustrated me terribly!

Reader234
Member

08-13-2000

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Reader234 a private message Print Post    
Thank you Westtexan!! I think the principal might want to have conversations with the teachers that dont have kids that may read the book aloud to a classroom - I see that happening more and more with books that the kids may not be able to read themselve, but have someone read to them!

My dd 10, going into 5th grade is an avid reader... her 4th grade teacher was always catching her read (sometimes instead of paying attention to the teacher!) The teacher has older girls and an extensive paperback classroom library - and dd found a book, a mystery I believe and brought it home and as she was reading it... she says "what does rape mean?" what does "spousal" mean? Ummm WHAT are you reading!!

I read the book that night, and then dd and I had discussions - and I talked to the teacher (who was grateful I pointed out that book!!) My point is that literature opens the door to new experiences, to the world around us that we may not know exists... its a way that we can teach...

Has anyone read Down the Rabbit Hole? (an Echo hills mystery - dd loves mystery and feels she's too old for Nancy Drew!) or the 2nd book Behind the Curtain? I was substitute teaching in a 5th grade classs picked up Rabbit Hole on her desk read the back cover and thought dd would like this book (its a thick paperback book) I mistakenly thought the teacher was reading it to the class! (well it has a cute title!!) Well now she is discriminating in recommending books to other classmates - while she loved the mystery she will tell me this book had steriod use in it and a few bad words...

She hasnt read Deathly Hallows - she and her father are reading it aloud - and Savoring it!!

I think as educators it is important to know the audience - (There is that one critically acclaimed book that is from a teenage boys perspective that has the "F" word every other sentence - so annoying I couldnt read it, and I was surprised it was a "must read" for high schoolers (I lead a sheltered life!) ) It really depends - I think Harry Potter will help prepare many a kid thru tough times...

We cant shelter our kids - and having a background of death and dying thru literature helps them cope... etc etc (I think I'm preaching to the choir!!)

Westtexan
Member

07-16-2004

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 6:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Westtexan a private message Print Post    
I'll also order this book for my library if for no other reason than to save my sanity. Imagine hearing the following on a near daily basis:

Have you ordered the new Harry Potter book? When's it coming in? Is it in yet? Is it in yet? Is it in yet? Is it in yet? When's Christmas break? Is it in yet? Is it checked out? Is it still checked out? Is it still checked out? Is it in yet? Is it in yet? When's book fair? Are we there yet? I'm hungry.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
LOL! Did you order 30 copies West? Otherwise, I'm betting you'll get the "Is it still checked out?" every day for the first 6 months of school!

Riviere
Member

09-09-2000

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 3:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Riviere a private message Print Post    
Teach ~ I'm thinking the Harry Potter series is something kids need to grow up with, too, the later books over 600 pages don't appeal to the 'average' elementary school student. To get the whole series some 10yo may read in one year seems silly. A lot happened between Harry at 11 and 17 (and beyond). Many kids won't understand the betrayals & conflicts happening. I dearly cherished "Lord of the Rings" at age 9 and find Tolkien's work superior to Rowling's. Her last 3 books were a disappointment as if she was so sick of Harry she wasn't sure how to proceed. If only she left it as a trilogy! I'd agree books 1-4 are suited for elementary age, books 5-7 better in middle schools... Ironic I'm a free speech and no censor advocate but education has to draw lines about the age appropriate materials in schools. Thanks for the 'parental consent' idea because those later books are something parents should share with kids under age 12...

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 11:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
I could see my son as a 10 yr. old devouring ALL the books if they had been available at one time. :-) That's pretty much what he did w/Lord of the Rings. He started The Hobbit near the end of 3rd grade, and spent the summer inhaling the entire set. :-) I'd hate to see kids like him denied the privilege of the entire set, but I think the parental consent thing covers the library's butt! :-)

PS -- I have to do this w/my AP class b/c we read "mature" lit. No way I'd have kids reading Song of Solomon (Morrison) w/o having their parents' signature on file. :-)