Author |
Message |
Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:54 pm
Here's a question, after watching Darren read all evening, is this book living up to everyone's expectations? I know once I got it I couldn't put it down, and he's been the same way. I'm going to beat around this for a minute because I'm not quite sure where I'm thinking, or rather I am but not how I'm getting there, lol. I've never really liked Snape, mostly because as a teacher he should be more kind to his students, and yet he's always seemed to take pleasure in tormenting/frightening them, especially Harry. So it's not that I'm hoping he's good because I like him. I was thinking though, he made the unbreakable oath to Draco's mom and aunt (can't remember their names) to finish whatever task Voldemort laid out for Draco if he couldn't do it, to protect him. Dumbledore said he knew what Draco was up to, and I'm wondering if that was because Snape told him. Snape has helped Harry out in the past, maybe because of the reasons he gave, maybe because no matter how cruel he is to him, he can't stand by and watch a kid get hurt. So maybe Dumbledore knew the only way to keep Snape safe, and Draco, he made Snape promise to do whatever he had to do in order to keep both of them safe. And Snape really is good, just following Dumbledore's orders. When Snape confronts Dumbledore, D is begging. Now he's never seemed the type who would beg for his life to me, maybe he was just begging Snape not to turn, but maybe it was to beg Snape to do what he had to do to not blow his own cover and to keep him and Draco safe. The "please" part between Snape and Dumbledore has really been nagging at me a lot.
|
Faerygdds
Member
08-29-2000
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:51 am
I thought of that too Wargod, but I took the please to be more of a "please... get it over with" You all keep forgetting he was still weak and paranoid from the 12 goblets of poison potion he had ingested! I am also of the belief that there is more to this than meets the eye. It's all very complicated.. just like real life... ok... let's say for sake of argument that Snape is on the good side (notice I am NOT saying HE is good)... logic prevails... so........ He makes the unbreakable vow with Narcissa with Bellatrix as the bonder. He HAS to kill Dumbledore if Draco cannot. In my re-reading I honed in on a statement about D and S arguing. This, undoubtedly was what they were arguing about, but I'm not sure it is the way I think we think. Undoubetly they were arguing over what Snape had promised. Which means that Snape either told him or D saw it in him... he is also a skilled Legilimens (sp?). Either way they fought... but what about precisely... Was D angry that he had made the vow? Highly unlikely as D would have told him to to keep cover... Was D angry Draco was trying to kill him... No. He seemed saddened at his feeble attempts. He must have seen the feeble attempts and realized that in the end Snape would have to kill him... and that is what they fought over. Snape doesn't want to kill him, but he has to... Of course.... He could have seen the futile attempts, and known Snape would kill him and he was begging for his life, but that seems out of place. Will write more later if my brain untangles...
|
Hermione69
Member
07-24-2002
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:06 am
New message filler blah blah blah Wargod, Snape has always fascinated me. I love him as a character; he brings so much to the story. I also find him MUCH more intriguing as a character on the side of good, but nevertheless behaving so rotten than I do as someone who was bad all along. So I am really disappointed in the thought that he is just rotten through and through. It flattens him somehow; makes him less three-dimensional. I've been his advocate all along, but I just can't see him turning out to still be on the side of good after this. Rowling would have to spin a real good tale for that to happen. Of course, we know she is good at that, so who knows. However, her own feelings about Snape have always been negative. She has said over and over that there is not much to like about him and that she doesn't get his appeal to so many people. That is the most damning evidence to me that Snape's moment of redemption is gone unless she is trying to fool us all. I'm pretty positive Dumbledore is not gone. He's going to come back in some form. If Snape was really under an Unbreakable Vow to kill DUmbledore in order to keep his cover, that will probably come out through Dumbledore, not Snape, because no one would believe Snape. The book, overall, did not disappoint me. The only thing that did was the direction in which she took Snape. Like I said above, it made him less interesting to me. I don't think anyone has mentioned the Horcruxes. How cool is the idea of a Horcrux? That is just a phenomenal idea to me, to make Lord Voldemort that much harder to kill because he shattered his soul into 7 pieces. It also explains the metamorphosis of his appearance. He got a little less human with each Horcrux he created. Neat! I just love Rowling's imagination.
|
Hermione69
Member
07-24-2002
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:09 am
New messages blah blah "He makes the unbreakable vow with Narcissa with Bellatrix as the bonder. He HAS to kill Dumbledore if Draco cannot." I didn't even think of it that way. I thought the task Draco was assigned was getting the Death Eaters into the school, which he did. Maybe killing Dumbledore was part of the task and Snape HAD to kill him since Draco could not. Huh. Food for thought. Thanks, Faery!
|
Mamie316
Member
07-08-2003
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:39 am
blah blah I think Draco's task was to kill Dumbledore and that was why he was crying to Myrtle. It was hard for him to do. I am still rooting for Snape. I think there was way more than meets the eye going on.
|
Jkm
Member
07-10-2002
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:44 am
lalalalalalala I cried like a baby at 2 am this morning when I finished it. I'm choosing to believe (translated - living in denial) that D will be back -- I read somewhere that his petronius is a phoenix. Maybe that was his spirit releasing or maybe it was him transfigured. Maybe??? Or maybe a ghost phoenix or maybe Harry muttering about D never truely being gone because he, harry was still loyal -- Hope Hope hope -- maybe it will be like those old Kung Fo movies/tv show -- Harry in a meditation/day dream - talks to D. I read somewhere that the girl ghost not mentioned by name around the fight time --might be Harry's Mom.
|
Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:48 am
I don't have the book handy, dang husband, LOL. Next time round he doesn't get his hands on it til I finish talking about it! Faery, you said exactly what I had been trying to say but failed so miserably at. I had the feeling that Dumbledore knew exactly what Draco was supposed to do and what Snape had vowed to do if Draco couldn't. Plus thought maybe that that would be the only way to keep Snape in on Voldemort's plans while at the same time trying to save both of them. I can't see Dumbledore begging for his life or letting one of his students get killed if he could help it (no matter that that student was Draco!) I honestly can't figure out why it's driving me so nuts that Snape really might be nothing but evil. Other than it just seems so easy, you expect Snape to be on the bad side and boom, he is. How many times has Rowlings made us truly hate or love a character and then flip it completely around, lol. Severus was evil, he helped kill Harry's parents, he escaped prison and was insane, and then he's a good guy and it was completely believable, not just some plot trick. After some thought, and I really hope to be wrong about this, I don't think we've seen the end of Dumbledore, but at the same time I don't think he's alive either. Something has to happen that leaves Harry thirsty for revenge and wanting, needing to end all of this. And maybe not just Harry, maybe all of the Order and good wizards and witches need something tragic to unite them into fighting the evil facing them, rather than sitting back and watching things happen.
|
Terolyn
Member
05-06-2004
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:49 pm
Why Are You Worrying about You-Know-Who? You SHOULD Be Worrying About U-NO-POO - the Constipation Sensation That's Gripping the Nation!
ROFL.... sorry that just cracks me up 
|
Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 1:01 pm
LOL Terolyn!
|
Ladydewtel
Member
07-18-2002
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:13 pm
Okay just got done re-reading the book. There was alot that I missed the first time. Dumbledore and Snape were arguing and Snape said he couldn't do it anymore that it was too much. I am willing to admit that maybe I was hasty in my first post. By this statement from Snape I am guessing that maybe everyone is right. I am thinking that maybe Dumbledore made Snape promise that he would kill him so that he could continue spying on Voldamort. Maybe even making him do an unbreakable promise to Dumbledore to ensure it. That brings up the question though of who could be their bonder. Well my guess would be Lupin. Harry trusts Lupin and Dumbledore would probably make Lupin agree not to tell anyone until it was needed to divulge. Lupin seemed to be pretty devistated when he heard. Sitting down with his head in his hands. Maybe he was hiding his face for a reason. Just a thought. I will re-read it again next week and see if I see anything else that pops out at me. Oh on a web sight they are speculating that Harry may be a possible horcrux. They are saying that he would have to kill himself along with Voldamort. I don't know could be a possibility. One last thought also, Harry broke up with Ginny because of Voldamort going after the ones he loves. Well Snape knows about him and Ginny don't you think he will still go after her because of this? Thanks for letting me speculate.
|
Nickovtyme
Member
07-29-2004
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:21 pm
Dumbledore did explain to Harry that a Phoenix burst into flames and is reborn...at the funeral...Dumbledore's body burst into flame and we seen the Phoenix reborn. What if there is a baby Dumbledore out there somewhere. Something else that I haven't seen mentioned, but I found a new respect for Fleur at the end of the book. I've been chewing over this as well...could Dumbledore have known that the real Horcrux in the cave had already been stolen, but due to his knowledge of Draco's plan had to have Harry with him. Because Dumbledore knew that Harry needed that rage to face Voldemort? Could Dumbledore have perceived that in order for Harry to steel his resolve and make the choice to hunt Voldemort, he took him anyway? I can't put it past Dumbledore, even if he knew he was to die, that the plan had to go off without a hitch. I can also buy that Snape and Dumbledore had worked up something to keep Snape "safe" from the Unbreakable Vow....for all we know, as soon as Snape knew, he went to Dumby and told him about it. "Severus, this is what we will do..." Wether Snape is good or bad...he has an intriguing story and I wish JKR would hurry up and tell us what it is.. What to do for 2 years...I guess I'll start on Chronicles of Narnia.
|
Azriel
Member
08-01-2000
| Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:48 pm
In the jungle the mighty jungle the lion sleeps tonight...I know you will all love me for putting that tune in your head. I've been thinking all this over and I don't think that it is just as simple as Snape is evil or Snape is good. I think Snape is in a battle with himself all the time and I think Dumbledore knew that and because Dumbledore's biggest fault was that he always believed in the good in people, he has always believed that the good in Snape would win out in the end. This is what really draws me into these books, we all want to believe there is an ultimate good on one side and an ultimate bad on the other, but the characters in this book, even the 'hero' of the book, are real people who are drawn to both good and evil and they all have to work out how to deal with their evil sides. There is an overlying theme of how we were treated in childhood and how that affected the adult we become. I think it was shown in this book that Malfoy's mother does love her son. She did not want him to have to kill and she begged Snape to help him. Snape was touched enough to make an unbreakable vow to protect him. I think this is the love that will save Malfoy. I think that Dumbledore is really dead. I read an interview with JK and she said that in this book there was a death that had to happen and she had dreaded having to write it. I think he will probably come back in some spiritual form, because his work is not finished, but I don't think he will be fully resurrected. (I do believe in the next book that Harry is going to find some way to bring Sirius back across the line because he didn't actually die, he just fell in) I could babble on and on. I don't think enough questions were answered in this book, just more pieces to the puzzle were given.
|
Djgirl
Member
07-17-2002
| Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 10:02 am
Wow!! You guys have some fantastic theories & thoughts!!! The one thing that I can't get past, regardless of how much I don't want Dumbledore dead, is the fact that if you enter into an Unbreakable Vow with another person, if you don't fulfill your part, you will die. Snape is still alive, and as such, this means that Dumbledore is dead. There were definitely more puzzles than answers.. two years to re-read and speculate - oh how much fun we're going to have!
|
Terolyn
Member
05-06-2004
| Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:03 pm
DJ.. except we don't really know what the unbreakable vow was do we? Other than Malfoy was to do something but if he failed Snape would do it for him. It could have been just to provide access for the Deatheaters to enter Hogwarts since due to enchantments, etc, no one could just come on the grounds. So maybe (thinking outloud) the unbreakable curse was just to get the death eaters inside, Snape informing Dumbledore about it and they came up with the plan that they would use this to their advantage, planning on a "mock killing of Dumbledore. Maybe the stuff that Dumbledore drank was not poison, but some type of potion that would render Dumbledore impervious to the Avadra Kedevra but would cause him to be in a death sleep until revived? Voldomort would think him dead as would most everyone. A cruel trick to play but necessary perhaps. If the one wizard that Voldomort feared the most was gone... he would perhaps relax.
|
Riviere
Member
09-09-2000
| Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 1:32 pm
Wow, never dreamed I'd be this disappointed in a Harry Potter book! The series only got better as it progressed and I guess I expected HBP to be at least half as good as OOTP was. Rowling usually doesn't leave so many loose ends, right? By chapter 30 all I could think was, oh dear, I'm running out of pages and no way is she gonna answer some of my questions.. It's as if she opened topics but then wandered off never returning to them. Things I thought were clues to remember turned out be nothing. Then it was all over! I reread some chapters wondering if I'd missed something vital. Knew someone would die (as Rowling promised) but I wouldn't have guessed Dumbledore. I hope we will see him and Sirius again. And have HBP's loose ends tied up! It's already driving me crazy who R.A.B. was. And whether Harry was right about Snape all along. And if Hogworts has a future or not. And, and, and!!!
|
Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 5:34 am
Whenever roll along........ Love the thoughts posted so far, I hate to add mine! In other threads I added my thoughts, and I'm sure they mirror others, and they've said it better!! I dont think Hogwarts will open per se - I think JK was great in not having the Weasley twins go back for their 7th year!! I really foresee a scenario where the DA will be in place... however, Hogwarts will be a setting, there has to be horcruxes there - or they have to take advantages of some of the tools there... Also, I cant get out of my mind the similiarities here with the other great good vs evil stories!! I keep remember Gandalf, Aslan (Narnia), ObeWan... so yes I do believe with the phoenix Dumbledore will be there to help Harry!! Snape, ah, poor Snape, again, he sure has the background of Voldemort, and as such has gained his trust... I dont see where his character is going - no love interest (lol) but, Dumbledore trusted him, Dumbledore wasnt fooled... I'm going to stick with Dumbledore on which side Snape is on, its too easy to say he was evil... (altho I do have my doubts, but the seal is Dumbledore was very insistant that only Snape could save him, and I'm going with the reference of Aslan, and Dumbledore knowing he (D) had to be sacrificed in order to triumph ultamitly... Altho, I still dont understand dead in the wizard world!! How young were the Weasleys when they got married? I wondered why Tonks was so in the story line, yet appearing so weak... I dont see Ginny giving up and walking away from Harry!! I really like how JK slowly brought Hermione and Ron together! The whole thing does remind me of the difficulties Louisa May Alcott faced writing Little Women - she wrote it in installments in a magazine, and was so upset at the readers reaction and where the readers thought the storyline was going - she completely rewrote her outline!! This sure is more intense, esp with the internet!! Riviere - in a way I agree, but I always knew this book was going to be like Chpt 5 of Star Wars (or movie 3!!??!) Where there were NO answers, and only more questions!! I tend to get upset when an author doesnt give me an "epilogue" or a look in the future to "wrap things up" and I end up writing my own version!! I cant imagine Harry back at the Dursleys!! They now know he has all that wizard GOLD!! Last summer he was only there 2 weeks... what will happen now??
|
Djgirl
Member
07-17-2002
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 10:04 am
Riviere, in reference to the loose ends... JK has stated somewhere (I think I read it on HP Lexicon) that HP & HBP would be one half of a two parter with book 7 being the finale. She did say that it wasn't a 2-parter, but that the theme of the book would extend past into the final book and the final year for Harry & the gang.
|
Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 2:23 pm
Ok, so I decided to reread the entire series, start to finish. I want to reread HBP and I'm thinking maybe I'll catch some hints that I may have missed, lol. I don't think Dumbledore will show up alive, though I do think he will have some part in the last book and that's based on nothing other than tons of fantasy books and the way they end up, lol. However, reading Sorcerer's Stone, I came across something that stood out to me. In Harry's first potions lesson with Snape, while he is tossing out names of roots and stuff to Harry and trying to get him to answer what they're used for. Also where Harry first learns about the bezoar. Snape asks him what he'd get if he added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood. When Harry doesn't answer he goes on for a bit about different stuff, then gives the answers. He says, "For your information, Potter, asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." In HBP, the bezoat comes up again, and Harry (or maybe it was Hermione who reminded him?) remembers that in that first potion lesson he learned what it was for (that it'd save you from most poisons.) It really struck me though, bezoat comes back, would it be out of the realm of possibilty that something that was also mentioned at the same time would come back later on. It's given me something to speculate about anyways, lol. Like I said, I really don't think Dumbledore will show up alive, but it might be a way for that to happen. I've been wrong before and will be again. Maybe a sleeping potion known as the Draught of Living Death could cancel out a wizards spell and be a way for later on Dumbledore not to be dead.
|
Feelangee
Member
01-04-2005
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:03 pm
ETA: Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!! Maybe Dumbledore has a Horcrux. (Message edited by feelangee on July 21, 2005)
|
Azriel
Member
08-01-2000
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:24 pm
Lalala la la lala Lalala la la lala I thought about that one too, Feelangee. But then I realized,you have to kill someone to get your horcrux and it tears your soul apart. I don't think that Dumbledore would do that.
|
Sage
Member
07-20-2000
| Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 11:02 pm
Finally finished, dang you're all fast readers! Lots of thoughts going on, I do believe D was pleading to Snape to kill him, and perhaps it was part of a vow Snape made to him. I think if Draco does die, he may become a ghost and go live in Hogwarts with Moaning Myrtle happily ever after... LOL. I like that Harry and pals won't be students at Hogwarts anymore. This allows them to really spread their wings and be "adults" having the freedom from rules and adult authority over them. They, besides Harry, are going to be there to help erradicate the Death Eaters. Harry spends so much time with the Weasly gang I don't see how he and Ginny can avoid being together. She is too tough to just sit and wait for whatever to happen, happen. She won't be of age to do as she pleases, but will still have a major role in the final defeat of V and the DE. I don't believe Snape is truly evil. I don't think JK would portray D in a way that he would make such an awful error in judgement, even though he had made some judgement errors in the past, but not to this degree. I do believe D is truly dead, but perhaps there is something to the pheonix rising from his ashes, just not sure as to what as that is probably a very intentional clue to cause lots of speculation.
|
Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Friday, July 22, 2005 - 12:54 am
Hehe, around my house I have to be a fast reader! Darren's about 3/4 of the way through the book, and I know he laid in bed long after he is usually asleep tonight reading, all the time Caleb staring at him waiting for him to finish, lol. What really surprised me though was that I finished the first book this afternoon, and as soon as I put it down, Dakota picked it up. Now, she's not stupid and she can read, but going into second grade she's about 9 months younger than Caleb was at that point and her reading skills aren't as good as his were at the same point. She sat between me and Darren on the couch, read, sounded out words, asked for help when she needed it and finished about 20 pages. We talked to her about it when she put the book down and from what she was telling us about it, she comprehended it well. I don't know how much she'll read on her own, or if she's going to ask us to read it to her at some point, but I was surprised and pleased she'd tried it. With HP I've got to get through them fast because there is always someone waiting behind me to read them, lol. I think Ginny gave in too easily, lol. Like sure, go ahead, break up with me and think you're going off on your own, uh huh. I have a feeling she's just letting him think he broke it off with her, and yep in the end she's going to be there with him. Sage, LOL about Malfoy and Moaning Myrtle! Agree Az, I don't see Dumbledore doing that for any reason. It'd be so against his character.
|
Riviere
Member
09-09-2000
| Friday, July 22, 2005 - 2:48 am
Thanks for these great insights, I had forgotten this book was a two parter in essence! Someone told me Rowling's foray as a romance writer was the only waste of page spaces, but fans clamored to have teen Harry and pals play kissy face which padded this book and gave it the only lightness. I personally could never compare Harry Potter to Lord Of The Rings or that epic understated always enduring romance between adults. Rowling's teen angsts have been mostly pages I skimmed, but hey it's a kiddie book series, stuff happens.. My only lament now is seeing HBP written as if the Death Eaters invaded Rowling's head and made her write such a gloomy book with few answers. On the other hand, her series was contracted long ago and any possible post partum depression could explain the drop in her usual quality prose.
|
Terolyn
Member
05-06-2004
| Friday, July 22, 2005 - 5:08 am
ya know... maybe Azreil has a point. What if the Horcrux was in the liquid that Dumbledore drank not in the locket? ooooohhhhhhh
|
Feelangee
Member
01-04-2005
| Friday, July 22, 2005 - 6:39 am
What if you kill someone because you have to? Because if you don't kill them, they will kill you? Is it possible that D killed someone in that fashion and created a Horcrux?
|
|
|
|