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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 9:58 am
Powell's ROCKS! Even at the Portland airport, last time I was there. An amazing selection of books at an airport.. I happily browsed and added some weight to my carry on luggage! I'd love to have a Powell's nearby. There is big difference between being "like" non-fiction and being non-fiction. And a fictional book "reading like non-fiction" just says that is a talented author. THIS book reads like unbelievable FICTION but was accepted because it was sold as truth, or non-fiction. Big Difference. I also weigh in on the side of James Frey being a human being who WROTE that the truth is all that matters, and said it and continually insisted that what he wrote was the truth, until he was completely busted on his lies. To me it dishonors other honest authors whose recovery is actually far more dramatic, honestly, and well written than Frey's, but he got all the publicity. Memoirs of a Geisha was clearly labelled fiction even though the author did extensive research. Mine is definitely going back to Barnes & Noble. But if you buy the next edition coming out, at least there will be truth, because they are adding disclaimers and explanations. Jimmer, the actions of Oprah that illustrate her "going with the pack and protecting her back" (and very strongly, she even admits to going with the pack) was when she refused to follow up on the Smoking Gun research, independently.. and she explains that she earlier relied on the publisher when Hazelden protested early-on that much of what Frey wrote about his time in their program was clearly fabrication, that her producers relied upon the publisher for "the truth", and since she believed the publisher, the then, without checking, disbelieved The Smoking Gun and knee-jerk called in to Larry King. THAT was when her actions smelled and she admits to part of that (never mentioned covering her back or butt..) because she had so many people writing in to support Frey or say his book change their lives But the turnaround now, while of course it is an attempt to repair her good name and credibility because she's always claimed to revere the truth. She says she had calls early on where people would question parts of the story/book but she was so firmly convinced by the publisher that it was true that she vigorously defended it.. as "it says it happened and therefore it happened." And she's very embarrassed that she didn't research more thoroughly.
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Legalboxer
Member
11-17-2003
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:48 am
i know i am frustrated with the thought that if so many people out there assume that all non fiction is embellished in some way, then how will any one believe in the total truthfulness of any of my books if i ever get around to writing them - because i sure never plan to put in any thing that isnt true, nor things that i cant back up with evidence. i feel like something like this can demoralize other authors who want to share their stories but now wonder if anyone will take them for the truth - especially when the truth does matter for them (including for me)
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:03 pm
I don't think people believe all non-fiction is embellished in some way, but that all forms of memoir and autobiography are. There is no objective truth to subjective experience and, to describe subjective experience, we use normative, fictional forms of narrativity to describe experience. Things like "evidence" and "experience" are themselves already construed within generic narrative frames. BTW, I'm hoping to return all my books I bought written by Plato because they purport to contain Socrates' dialogues and, well, we know they aren't accurate representations of the dialogues, but are instead Plato's fanciful recounting of them.
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:07 pm
how many people really think that all non fiction is embellished? I think that is all just dramatics on the part of the talking heads in the media. The entire literary world is not going to come crashing down because this guy stretched the truth and wasn't honest. I also think that authors who decide dedicate their lives to the art of writing find get commitment to write from within themselves. Many will continue writing no matter how many times they are turned down by a publisher. I dont know of anyone who wouldn't write a book because someone may not believe them. At the end of the day, was it a well written book enjoyed by millions? It doesnt change his talent as a writer. As oprah said originally "What is relevant is that he was a drug addict ... and stepped out of that history to be the man he is today and to take that message to save other people and allow them to save themselves,” How much of that was a lie?
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Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 1:33 pm
Legalboxer, I agree with you completely. It matters because the next author is now going to be doubted. I kept a journal during my custody battle and divorce proceedings. The few people who read it said I should publish it because no one could make up a story that good. If I were seriously considering doing that, I would now have second thoughts.
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Laralyn
Member
08-04-2005
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 2:34 pm
Max & Seamonkey, golly, geewhiz y'all are right on. Love Powell's I've spent many a month in a day's time there. I really do not care for Frey. His books are selling very well and probably will continue to do so. After watching bits and pieces of Anderson Cooper, I personally think that he is still trying to lie. Which tells me that he is still not in recovery. I wish he would do some outpatient and really get into the process of recovery. However, I am not taking my book back. Too much controversy and I wrote about this in the back of the book. Years from now I will read my inscription and laugh at all the hullabaloo. As to fact or fiction I think there are a lot of fiction books out there based on fact and visa-versa.
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Shadoe
Member
11-04-2004
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 5:09 pm
Color, I meant that Frey is really just a normal Joe and he wrote a book. It's not like he is in a familiar element like Stephen King or someone who makes their living at writing. I have to see much of the presentation a fault of the publishers etc. They should know what they are doing and be making sure they are putting together and advertising correctly. Jimmer, I am puzzled at Oprah's about face as well. How can she say it's helped people and then turn around to condemn it - does she need to go along with the majority? Marys, I just read books. I like how it is written, and the story line, and I will want to read more from that author. Fiction or non-fiction don't much matter to me; I will read both and in the same way. I have plenty of both kinds sitting on my bookcase that are read part way because I just can't get into them. Put me in the story; make me feel like a fly on the wall and I am happy. If the book stays as paper and words and has no life, it is useless to me. LOL Tishala. What about others like Aristotle? Should I pull down Virgil and any other books to check them out? I don't think of the artist when I look at a painting; I like what I see or I don't. I say just read, enjoy.
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Marysafan
Member
08-07-2000
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:14 pm
Different strokes for different folks. I have my bookcases separated into fiction and non-fiction. Sometimes I like a good a story, other times, I enjoy spending time learning about and spending time with real people. Mr. Frey isn't someone that I would enjoy spending time with...and I gave up on the Oprah Book Club years ago and I found her selections too depressing for my enjoyment.
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Teachmichigan
Member
07-22-2001
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:15 pm
I didn't get the feeling Oprah was now condemning the book -- she was most definitely unhappy with the fabrication, but I didn't hear her say that the book was now not as helpful as it was before. She said the audience needed to know it was "based on fact" --not entirely fact. That is a far cry from telling people to take back their books!
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Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Friday, January 27, 2006 - 6:25 pm
i have no idea why there is all this hoopla over the author and his book. so what if it was on "oprah's bookclub" list. half of the stuff she recommended bored the hell out of me. i can pick my own books, thanks. even history textbooks lie or withhold things to make things seem different...i never heard of our own country interning american japanese until i was in college. columbus was 'da bomb'. sure, these textbooks are non-fiction...but leaving something out equates to a lie to me. i guess i'm just saying, if you want to read the book, read it. i wouldn't change my mind about it based on all the contraversy. i think it's idiotic of oprah to get all incensed and feel duped. he didn't write the book for or about her. it's not really up to her to 'punish' or humiliate the author. JMHO of course, someone in a continuously stoned state would probably not have total recall of events. if the book seemed 'farfetched', it probably was. and, having worked with an agent, i know they check facts out. i had to find documentation on everyone and everything i wrote about. i had to get letters from priests and attorneys and newspaper articles on certain murderers, etc. it was grueling work and my manuscript never was made into a movie. i would blame the publisher if he truly insisted on putting it out as non-fiction...if there were 'blame' to be assigned. it's a book. period.
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Wendo
Member
08-07-2000
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:54 am
Just gonna repost my thoughts from the Oprah thread about this situation: I'm rather surprised at how cavalier people are about the truth and it's importance. I don't disagree that their are many more serious things going on in the world today that demand attention. But that doesn't diminish the importance of this issue as well. The fact that a book on the non-fiction list is riddled with lies and fabrication; lies that the author has admitted to is a serious matter. I find it appalling that because people think it's a good book the whole matter shouldn't be a big deal. The author broke his trust with the reading audience, that's a big deal, imo. If Frey wanted to make up situations in his book to make it better, it should be classified as fiction, not non-fiction. And, since he has admitted to lying in the book, how can a reader trust that the rest of the book is authentic? It's one thing to write in a memoir that, say, you opened two pieces of mail when it might have been one. It's something else to write that you spent three months in jail when in reality, you spent no more that a few hours in a police department conference room. It's indicitive of a larger problem, imo. Where the truth isn't important anymore; where it's "ok" to bend the truth or out right lie about something. When there is no outrage over such things, is it any wonder that lies by our government get little attention. What's also interesting is how much Frey insisted on the importance of truth not only in his book, but during his many interviews. I saw a clip of an interview by Matt Lauer of Frey and Lauer asked him directly, did everything in the book happen? Frey said, absolutely everything in the book happened to me. So much for the importance of truth. ETA: Shadoe, Frey does make a living off his writing, just as Stephen King does. Before his book, he wrote screenplays; most notably, a David Schwimmer movie. While I do agree with you that his publishers and the publishing industry need to change, the fault lies with Frey. He fabricated stories in his book; he lied and he admitted to doing it.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 1:53 pm
Shadoe, Frey has a second book on the shelves at present, ready and available. I have no lack of books available to me.. hundreds right in my bedroom. I'll return the book as a matter of choice and a personal protest. My choice. As for Oprah, I don't select my reading material based on her promotions. Most of the "Oprah" books I have read, I had bought before she put her stamp of approval on them. I wouldn't keep or return the book based on anything Oprah said or didn't say. The truth IS important to me and it might help if Frey wasn't being so evasive, even now. I wish he WANTED to know what was true, yet he claims that he knows he had work done on four front teeth and ht THINKS he had a couple of root canals. Now I know an awful lot about dissociation and being able to switch or leave hideous situations probably saved my life, but I also did the best I could to verify/validate what I did remember. I believe that he could have his mouth xrayed and it would show whether he did have those root canals. That wouldn't clear up whether he was worked on without anesthetic, but it would perhaps give him some hard evidence. Someone in a contiuously stoned state should probably write about his recovery and the FEELINGS and refrain from going into graphic detail about events that he cannot document.
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:05 pm
My question is how come it took Oprah so long to find the book The Good Earth, I read that back in the seventies in high school and it still remains one of the best books I ever read.
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:11 pm
Maris, Oprah turned to the classics for her book club for a while. I believe it was after the author of "The Corrections," Johnathan Franzen, told her to basically take her club offer and shove it. If you were kidding with your post, it did make me laugh. If not, well, now you know the rest of the story (to plagerize Paul Harvey). 
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Colordeagua
Member
10-25-2003
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:23 pm
Maybe Oprah should avoid authors with the initials J F ?
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:26 pm
LOL Color! 
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:29 pm
ROFL Color, THAT IS THE PROBLEM
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Rupertbear
Member
09-19-2003
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 10:08 am
So now we have lawyers weighing in with class action suits...most notably in Seattle where Random House is based. I think this info is correct...I read it last night and forgot to save the link...
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Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:12 pm
sheesh! no one had better ever publish my diary from when i was a kid. i'm sure i exaggerated something along the way! like the neighbor boy, tony, who i thought was so cute...well, stick-out ears, freckles and braces just aren't THAT cute... and when i said, "this is only the second time i ever got a whole dollar" for pulling weeds; it might actually have been the third time. i can't believe they now have attorneys weighing in! tabby runs for her diary from age 8 and searches for white-out.
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Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:41 pm
Max - why did Franzen tell Oprah to shove it?
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:04 pm
Winfrey canceled Franzen's appearance after he announced that he felt "uncomfortable" with the prospect that his best seller, "The Corrections," would have an Oprah Book Club sticker slapped on it. "I see this as my book, my creation, and I didn't want that logo of corporate ownership on it," he said last month. Franzen added that most of Winfrey's other selections were not in the same "high-art literary tradition" as his books. Anyone who had read Franzen's searching and revealing 1996 essay, "Perchance to Dream," in Harper's would not be surprised by his comments. Apparently, the large staff behind Winfrey's book club failed to do so. If they had, I believe they would have told their boss to avoid this guy. link See also this for a pretty good recap of the whole shebang. In a nutshell, Franzen correctly thought Oprah's book club tends toward the maudlin, self-indulgent, and artistically dubious and thought his book might not fit in with Oprah's celebration of the middlebrow aesthetic.
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Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 1:43 pm
I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I truly enjoy a story about someone cutting a person like Oprah down a notch. Some people treat her like she's the next Messiah. I derive secret pleasure from people standing up to her, no matter HOW MUCH good she has done in her life. (Hmmmm....I guess I was one of those people in germ-free isolation in October.)
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Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 2:07 pm
i agree that a lot of celebs have way too much involvement in things that aren't THEIRS! i go through periods of liking oprah and periods of thinking she is liking herself way too much! she is NOT the resident expert of all things. a smart business woman, yes. a go- getter, yes. but i don't measure things by oprah's yardstick. i haven't really enjoyed her for years. i like celebs touting things such as mentoring or getting a child to love to read, or the imporatance of having prenatal healthcare, etc., but i don't care to hear their politics, booklists or their views on what's right or wrong. give me ellen. just a good, fun monologue, easy interviews, etc. her involvement with katrina was wonderful and because she was from that area, made all the more sense (and cents!). i also like her ebay auctions for breast cancer funds...but i don't see her jumping on every bandwagon or putting her personal stamp of approval on every little thing. look at maury povich these days. all his shows seem to be the "jerry springer replacements". he used to have a good show; now it's just crap. no mo' "mopo" fo' me!
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Rupertbear
Member
09-19-2003
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 6:00 pm
I agree Tabby...Ellen seems more real and down to earth...though I do love Oprah's hair these days. ;)
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Teachmichigan
Member
07-22-2001
| Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 9:40 pm
I like anyone (within reason) who gets people to read!! Some of Oprah's books I thoroughly enjoyed (The Pilot's Wife and Reading come to mind), and I almost hate to admit that I had never read East of Eden before she featured it -- it was fabulous Steinbeck and I probably wouldn't have picked it up that summer. Oprah's list is not the only thing I listen to, though! I get "advice" from at least 3 different book clubs, NY Times, other teachers, and award winners each year.
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