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Archive through February 05, 2006

The TVClubHouse: Movies/Library ARCHIVES: Movies & Library 2006: The Smoking Gun debunks A Million Little Pieces: Archive through February 05, 2006 users admin

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Ocean_islands
Member

09-07-2000

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ocean_islands a private message Print Post    
Something in the "Quote for Today" thread about 'imagination being real' reminded me of a point I wanted to make about this entire Frey episode.

I hear that Frey spoke up this week to explain why he "made up" some things, and the reason was to make a better book. I didn't watch Oprah's show but I can understand how he'd be intimidated by one of the world's richest people (Oprah Winfrey, billionaire) into not being able to articulate the artistic process to someone who is decidedly not artistic.

Being an artist and a writer myself, I will add my two cents to this debate. The idea that he willfully "lied" in this book to "deceive" everyone, is rather absurd, in my opinion. If anything, he exaggerated -- and its possible he was trying to depict his emotional reality. Strangely enough this writer seems a bit inarticulate on the matter, but given the above-mentioned intimidation factor, I can understand why.

Have you ever seen, for instance, Michelangelo's statue "Pieta"? It's a large marble statue of the Virgin Mary holding a crucified Christ in her arms. If you look at the statue and analyze its proportions, you will soon realize that the Virgin Mary's arms and hands are impossibly large for her head and body. No one has a body like that. If the statue were to stand up its deformed proportions would quickly be very evident. This was done for the overall effect of the statue, so that as a whole, it was coherent and portrayed the emotional impact it was intended to by its sculptor.

Now, did Michelangelo lie? Of course not. He altered the details for the greater whole. Do people know the proportions are off? Only if they analyze it. Does it matter? No.

To convey his emotional reality, he had to change some of the actual details.

And that is what I would have told Oprah Winfrey if I had been in front of a viewing audience of millions, in Frey's shoes.

Max
Moderator

08-12-2000

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Max a private message Print Post    
One of the things Frey said on the Oprah follow-up show that I think has gotten a bit lost in all of the press coverage and discussion is that the book was written over four years ago. It was on the shelves since 2003. It's not like he decided to lie in the book so it would be more noticed by Oprah's fans. He wrote what he thought was a good story based on his life. His publisher chose to slap it with a "memoir" categorization. It wasn't a big seller when it first hit the stacks.

Whoever was hired to fact check should be fired.
Nina Talese needs to rethink her approach, too. She said that if an author's note had been included about how some names, etc. had been changed, then she would have been tipped off to ask more questions about how factual the book really was. So I guess if she had read the manuscript for "Memoirs of a Geisha" without having any author's notes, she would have published that as non-fiction as well. Really shoddy work on the publisher's part, IMO.

I really think this book has good things to offer, I just think it was mis-labeled and should have been in the "fiction based on fact" section instead. It would still be a good book and offer just as much helpful perspectives to people, but would not now be deemed a lie.

Frey looks kind of like a deer in the headlights in interviews about this. I don't think he's particularly comfortable being in the limelight, no matter what the cause. He strikes me as someone who would prefer to be behind the keyboard as opposed to in front of the camera.

Marysafan
Member

08-07-2000

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 1:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Marysafan a private message Print Post    
The difference for me is this...Frey went on the Oprah Winfrey Show and claimed that the things in his book were true and indeed all these things actually happened to him. Had he not done that...then other arguments on his behalf would be valid.

Michaelangelo never stood up and proclaimed that his statue were true to life depictions...that he had personally witnessed the event and this was his recollection of it.

In my opinion, Frey went on the Oprah Winfrey show and deliberately lied for the purpose of selling more books...which in my opinion, is the same reason the publisher put this in the "memoir" category. It was deliberate and intentional commercial manipulation.

I abhor being lied to. For me it was personal. Was I hurt by it? No. I didn't like him. I just got a "bad vibe" from him and trusted my gut. I didn't buy the book as I had no interest in this man or his drug addiction.

That doesn't make it okay for him to lie. A "harmless" lie (if there such a thing) is still a lie. I personally am glad that Oprah stood up and said..."We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more." I think we need more of that. There is entirely too much lying and too much getting away with it and too much getting rich off it. "Honesty is the best policy" is no longer true in today's society.

And I don't agree that the end justifies the means.

Ocean_islands
Member

09-07-2000

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 1:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ocean_islands a private message Print Post    
I don't believe that these books are fact checked.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
Michaelangelo was constantly lying to the pope about his work

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 4:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
I wonder how many lies are told here every day at the TVCH!!

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 6:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
here is my question, some what related. If you were a writer, whose show would you rather be on Oprah's or Jon Stewarts?

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 6:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tabbyking a private message Print Post    
see, i wouldn't have read this book either way because the premise just didn't interest me. i don't need to suffer through someone else's (real or imagined) nightmare life. not my type of book, that's all. it's just a book...to me.

i would only like to be on ellen's show, but i'd pick jon stewart over oprah. i have never seen whatever show jon stewart is on. now, i would like to be anywhere with anderson cooper, cameras or no cameras!!!

Shadoe
Member

11-04-2004

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 7:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Shadoe a private message Print Post    
I don't like Oprah, don't watch her show, and I think she is the one who stirred the pot on this issue.

Frey wrote this book years ago, so its classification was already in place. Oprah comes along and pumps it up to be what it is not and then turns on the author?

All she's done is make other authors to hesitate in being associated with her.

I read the book. I enjoyed the book. I got something out of the book. This issue has not changed my opinion of Frey because I care about the book, not the author. I just think much less of Oprah.

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
I also don't think the ends justify the means.

I don't like paying for lies. I don't pay for the posts I read on TVCH.. so that really isn't relevant to this issue, for me.

Frey had lied to other interviewers prior to Oprah picking up the book, then lied to Oprah and then lied to subsequent interviewers after a fair number of incidents in the book were proven to be untrue.

Oprah didn't stir up the pot initially.

The author fabricated many parts of his book.

The publisher claims they took everything in the book at face value and Mrs. Talese claims that this is the way things are "done" .. but admits that (as Dr Phil would say.. how's that working for you? Not very well..)

Others came forward to protest that certain events were untrue.. others including Hazeldon, whose program was libelled and misrepresented, but those people were shushed by Oprah and her staff because they considered that the publisher would have fact checked everything in the book. Oprah shouted down (figuratively) people in her life or viewers who questioned parts of the story as being wildly exaggerated and she apparently relied heavily on her staff's opinion and the publisher's good name.

The pot was boiling and stirred already and Oprah put effort into keeping the lid on.

It was The Smoking Gun who turned up the heat and even then Oprah apparently has lived under a rock and had no idea about TSG and didn't investigate things but allowed her producers once again (according to her) to ignore yet another voice of reason.

Then even when others started following up on TSG allegations, and Frey sort of started 'fessing up, Oprah made that phone call to Larry King.. the phone call she now regrets.

The follow up show was for purposes of calming down the backlash from her fans, for the protection of her brand name and personal good name.

I'm sure many people care about the book and don't care if it is a pack of lies or if it hurts some people or organizations with misrepresentattions, or if it muddles the process of others who are working through issues. The same story, had it been clearly told as fiction probably would have entertained many people who wanted fiction and the book is being re-issued with a few extra pages that they hope will make it okay.

I think more of Oprah now, but have many of the same reservations about her power and the power so many people hand over to her and how she seems to really think she has so many of the answers to so many questions and issues.. I think it is very dangerous. So I still can't endorse her in any blanket way. I'm not detracting from her many acts of kindness or acts that shine light on important issues.

And I do like her hair more lately :-)

What she finally did, when she was forced to see that she'd been wildly mislead and that she'd stubbornly ignored all warnings was to

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 1:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wendo a private message Print Post    
I can't believe people are blaming Oprah because James Frey lied in his book and continued to perpetuate those lies during interviews on tv and in print. Really unbelievable. No one is to blame in this situation than James Frey. He's the one who lied, continued to lie, and broke the trust his readers gave him.

One has to wonder if the story would've had as much impace and emotional resonance had it been published as fiction? Part of the reason the story was so accepted by readers is because they thought the events in the book happened (as Frey continued to claim.)

Is the story of him not getting back to Lily in time as poignant now that we know he wasn't in jail (the reason he didn't get to her in time in the book?)

I'm with Marysfan and Seamonkey, I don't like being lied to whether it comes from the authors who write the books I read or the politicians I vote for. What Fry did doesn't just affect him, it affects future authors, people who did utilize his book for help, and other things.

And I'm sorry, it is not an exageration or a mistaken memory to screw up a few hours in jail to three months in jail. Puhlease.

But hey, I guess if your not personally affected by the lying then it doesn't matter.

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 1:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
As I heard it, he admits it was a few hours in a conference room..

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 2:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
But Seamonkey, there was no T.V.

Laralyn
Member

08-04-2005

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 8:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Laralyn a private message Print Post    
I found a very good article by Stephen King on this subject, Of course I think it is good because I agree with King.

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,12938,472578_7_0_,00.html

Oh, and by the way i usually do not read magazines of this type. All of the other magazines in the dentist office were in use.

Jimmer
Member

08-30-2000

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 8:35 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Thanks for the article. I enjoyed reading it.

I’m a little dismayed that Oprah seems so focused on the specific concern that Frey personally embarrassed her and not more focussed on the larger issues surrounding this.

Max
Moderator

08-12-2000

Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 8:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Max a private message Print Post    
good article, laralyn. thanks for posting the link. oh, and i love stephen king, too. :-)

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 2:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tabbyking a private message Print Post    
it's a book!!! one of millions of books out there. read or don't. enjoy it or don't. it's still just a book.
you read a book if you choose to, whether it's fiction or non-fiction.
i am just amazed at all the nonsense this has caused.
when i read a book it's because i want to read a particular book. leave the guy alone! i am not getting turned off to the author, i am getting turned off to oprah feeling it was embarrassing to her. i don't even want to watch her anymore no matter who her guests are! the author has not gone down in my estimation, oprah has for making such a freakin big deal out of it!

_____________________________
and, i too, love, love, love stephen king!

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 3:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wendo a private message Print Post    
Tabby, so you think it's ok that Frey made up lies in his book, embellished what really happened, and released said book as non-fiction (with no disclaimers speaking otherwise)? The truth doesn't matter as long as the book is good?

Shadoe
Member

11-04-2004

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 7:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Shadoe a private message Print Post    
Wendo, it's not really a matter of being OK that Frey lied in areas or even all of his book. To me, it's like Tabby said. It's just a book.

If people want to treat Frey with such scrutiny, then I would expect those same people to be fair and go on to pick apart every other book which has been put in the same category as Frey's. Fair's fair, right?

I love Stephen King, have all of his books and liked what he had to say.

I never much liked Oprah and now she is looking pretty tarnished to me.

Frey wrote the book. He did not release it or demand that no disclaimers be added. Those issues were handled by others.

It's just a book which has helped some people who can actually relate to the material. I am sure that if you asked any of those people whether the truthfulness of the words were more important than the end result of having helped them, I think they would pick the latter.

If I have a problem and lies/tricks are able to help me, should I be angry? I don't think so.

Jimmer
Member

08-30-2000

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 9:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I don’t think that Frey uttered an evil laugh and deliberately wrote the book with the intent of lying to the public. I think he simply got swept up in the moment and agreed to promote it as a non-fiction book. I still think he was wrong to do this but I don’t think he should be absolutely crucified for doing it.

Having said that, I do not like to be lied to – in print or otherwise. The truth does matter to me. Saying that it is “just a book” implies that truth is not important in non-fiction. I think that in some ways it is even more important in writing as written words are much more permanent than speech.

Rupertbear
Member

09-19-2003

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 10:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Rupertbear a private message Print Post    
I heard none of the publishing houses were interested in it when he vetted it originally as a work of fiction.

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 11:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tabbyking a private message Print Post    
if truth were important in non-fiction, we would have learned about our country interning the japanese-americans during the war and of columbus' murderous ways while we were in elementary or junior high school. leaving something out is the same as lying, and we HAD to learn american history at school. we can CHOOSE what we want to read for pleasure. do any of you seriously believe hilary clinton's written word that she had no idea of bill's extra-marital flings until his aide told her? that she had no reason to doubt clinton when he said he didn't have sex with monica, even though we heard over the years about gennifer flowers, paula jones, an aide's widow...? i think hilary lied to herself and to us when she said that and it just made her look stupid. i didn't care to read her book or bill's, but i know there were a few 'non-honests' in both their writings. yep, just books. ones i chose not to bore myself with.
i can't believe some are up at arms over this particular book,that it merited national attention and celebrity shows and discussions, when we have real world problems to work out.
yep, just a book! it bothered some, it helped others...some loved it, some didn't enjoy it. hey, sounds like a regular book to me.

Jimmer
Member

08-30-2000

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 12:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
if truth were important in non-fiction, we would have learned about our country interning the japanese-americans during the war and of columbus' murderous ways while we were in elementary or junior high school.

So how did you learn about these things? Don't you think that it is important to get these things right? Doesn't it bother you that you were misled?

With respect to Hillary, she was talking about her state of mind. We can make reasonable assumptions about what she actually was thinking but that is about it. It is not like Hillary said that Clinton was President for 12 years, instead of 8 (which would be less of a lie than Frey's description of his prison experience!).

Shadoe
Member

11-04-2004

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 12:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Shadoe a private message Print Post    
Jimmer I agree to a point when you say you don't like the lies. I may be upset if I had bought the book BECAUSE it was non-fiction and then found out later that it contained lies. That's not how I get books though.
I look to the story, to what is being told, and have never been one to know if a book is fiction, non-fiction, or any other classification. If the little writeup on the book back or jacket sleeve sounds interesting, or if a person recommends the book to me, I buy it.

Tabby's correct about the text books in the education system as well. Let's just take a look at what's being taught to the young in different areas, especially history - big variances there for sure. Then let's look at the different science books out there.

Yes there are plenty of areas in written words where we can be angry about lies and omissions, but Frey's is just a story from a guy who tailored it after parts of his life.

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 1:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tabbyking a private message Print Post    
jimmer, i did not know about us interning the japanese americans until i was in my 20's and we had an older japanese gentleman living across the street from us. he had been interviewed for a movie they made about it, and he was given 20,000 dollars resitution. he was 21 or 22, married with one baby when they were taken first to tule lake, ca and then somewhere in wyoming. they were there for 3 or 4 years and a second child was born in the camps. he lost his farm, his car, his house, his horse...everything. when he first got out of the camp, he was given 200 dollars to 'start over'.
i was shocked! we learned all about what hitler did, but i didn't even know we had camps here for americans!! i know they weren't treated the same, but the same biases led to the internment, and i could not believe we had never been told about it.
jimmer, i just feel there have been bigger omissions and lies than what one man writes in one book, that we have a choice to read or not read. it wasn't 'fed' to us like american history was.

((Frey's is just a story from a guy who tailored it after parts of his life.))
i agree completely, shadoe, and i should have put all my wordiness into something as simple as your statement!