Author |
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Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:31 am
I have a question. If a pharmacy is/was suing Jackson for $100,000 for unpaid prescription bills, don't they have a legal/ethical obligation (at the beginning of all this) to alert authorities that something is going on? And should the pharmacy be liable for negliance, also?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:37 am
Wow, I also find that harsh, as far as "getting over" childhood trauma.. for one thing it is hard to compare the effect of trauma since each child is different and also each child has a different situation. Even if you COULD submit them to identical traumatic events, one may have that little core of hope that little glimmer that allows them to carry on while the other may submit or give up hope.. being with many who survived childhood sadistic ritual abuse and discussing what DID keep them going, some adults can look back and remember one sibling, one teacher, someone who may not have been able to pull them out of their situation but who acted kindly, believed them, or just were there, as what they held onto. People I'm talking about are those who DID work on recovery, because they survived and somehow got the opportunity to work on recovery (and that can be a long painful process.. or with some techniques a shorter process, but rarely without work and pain). These are people who still have to cope with disabling effects of trauma but who have gone on to help others, write books, work in professional areas to help others, become performers, the whole range, really. Michael, hard to say if he was dissociative (what used to be called multiple personality disorder, mow multiple identity disorder); he had never spoken of very early abuse, but who's to say? Generally it was thought that the trauma had to be very early in life, repeated (usually) and usually sexual in nature (but not always). The publicized cases aren't typical.. Eve (Three Faces of Eve), Chris Costner Sizemore, never described what most therapists would expect to create alternate personalities, but her therapy and her story were taken over by her doctors and she was exploited to the extent that they took the case public when she was not really able to make that decision AND they literally took ownership of book/movie rights. When I talked to Dr Cornelia Wilbur, who was "Sybil's" doctor in real life, she had met Chris (Eve) a few times and said she was a delightful person post therapy but Dr Wilbur was convinced that the actual severe trauma had occured prior to the memories mentioned in the book/movie. Sybil had a very long psychoanalysis with Dr Wilbur and they were able to get to the bottom of things and Sybil (Shirley was her actual) name, who had managed to get her master's in fine art before/during treatment and was quite a good artist, with artwork hung at MOMA in New York, and she went on to teach art without revealing her identity as Sybil, also continued her piano and gardening and lived a good life, especially considering that she did live with some cardiovascular problems. When she retired from her professorship, she moved to Lexington, where Dr Wilbur spent her last many years as a professor at the university and a therapist. Anyway the "getting over" thing.. of course there are people who never seem to want to do the work of recovering and seem to milk the situation, but most survivors who speak out may well have finally trusted someone and it is a real shame if the reaction is more like Quincy's than, say, Oprah's. Re-vicitimization, indeed, if Quincy ever spoke to Michael that way or even about him that way. Childhood abuse/trauma is often shrouded in secrecy, in NOT talking. Heck, if you talk to multiples who are into recovery and can speak about their system (or former system), there is almost always that theme of hiding what happened AND of hiding/denying the effects on the adult. In a system that works (fairly) well, "someone" will come to take over if the presenting personality is overwhelmed, but unlike what you see in United States of Tara, usually the switches are subtle and the goal is that they are NOT noticed. The sudden emergence of a really strong protective personality does happen, but usually only under extreme stress, or if everything has broken down. MPD is just one coping mechanism and toward the extreme end of the dissociative spectrum and dissociation isn't the only coping strategy. Hearing Michael Jackson talk about trauma in childhood certainly came as no surprise, that's for sure. Jimmer, I think with Michael, he never really did grow up.. he was stuck and of course he didn't seem to have incentive or the right people around him to encourage him to get into therapy. And he had the money that allowed him to continue to be dysfunctional in his life (plus the real talent to continue to make money.) Seeing how dramatically altered an adult can be coming back from war (and I suspect even more so when those going to war are relatively young), then imagine an toddler or even an infact, experiencing heavy trauma and often at the hands of the very people they should be able to trust, quite profound and often this happens before the child has developed a sense of who they are. Yes, about the brains.. in fact in multiple the same brain will scan differently with different alternate personalities. I wonder when Michael first talked in public about his childhood trauma? The first I remember was his interview with Oprah and I know she had him seated looking away from the camera for part of that and she reacted very gently, plus she had talked about her childhood previously. Seemed like he really trusted her. And I think she probably didn't understand that he was, I think, at a much different place than she was, since she had been processing her story for some time, and talking about it. And she made the choice to go public for herself, which can be quite empowering. Not sure how it was for Michael, since I'm guessing his revelation on national tv was not met with support from within his large family or from much of the public. And wondering how many of his supposed supporters may have had the old school reaction like Quincey. (and I certainly do understand that people often simply cannot hear stories like that or DO thing getting over it can be as easy as saying getoverit.) Oh and I'm not saying that Oprah has totally dealt with her issues.. her weight issues just one symptom of that. Kar that is interesting about early reading. I know for me, my abuse was not from my family, but I was totally convinced (in a very convincing manner) that my family would be at extreme risk if I ever "told" and I sure didn't, so I had actual family support in regular ways, was loved and educated. My mom taught me to read before I went to school, same with grammar and arithmatic.. probably a good thing because I missed so much actual learning at school during the times I was removed from class by the abusers. Later IQ and aptitude tests would say I had that advantage. Most of the other multiples I met were avid readers and bright or talented in many ways. I know at that time those studying MPD would often say that multiples were ALL geniuses, etc., but as time went on that wasn't the case.. probably just seemed that way because of who clawed their way into treatment, or were able to pay for treatment, not because that group represented the population accurately. And I know where I came from, kids who could tolerate less may not have survived, or were even farther down the spectrum..so fragmented, or even became psychotic and thus were not able to benefit from treatment. But they were abused and they count.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:48 am
Thanks for the great post Sea.
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:50 am
There will always be lingering issues when dealing with childhood trauma. They never ever go away. They are in your mind every moment of every day. I know this. The truth is that every one of us has had some childhood trauma. Some, of course, to a stronger degree than others. And yes, some will never overcome it. But it would be kind to encourage people to understand that what has happened in your past does not have to continue to drive your present or your future. I do this myself, weekly. I sit with a group of young girls every week and I encourage them to know that what happened is through no fault of their own and that they CAN lift themselves. It will take much work and much strength. It may take medical intervention. But we each do have a responsibility to ourselves and to others to try to become better. Frankly, I get a little tired of how many people encourage others NOT to do better because of the traumas of their past. So many people seem to encourage others to use their traumas as excuses for hurting others and continuing to hurt themselves. Life will never be "perfect" for anyone. But you CAN make it better. And better is always better. And that's all I have to say about that.

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Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:53 am
I do not think I know anyone who has encouraged others not to do better because of a past trauma in their life. Why would someone do that? I would question this kind of behavior if I came across it.
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Chewpito
Member
01-04-2004
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:54 am
As Kar said, many people do work very hard to put things in perspective....they work at jobs,have familys,children.... they are great at getting thru things....but some just cant. They struggle with the smallest of tasks...depending on the abuse - maybe thier brain is not functioning normal...being hit repeatedly in the head (or anywhere)..being sexually abused.. many times the damage is more than one can take...they may look strong and put on a good cover.. they go thru life doing the best they can...but inside they are trying so hard to escape the constent 'haunts' in their brain... Its complex... Im glad that people like Karunna are out there to help
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:00 am
Beekind, I rarely see what you are saying - that others encourage people NOT to do better. In fact, I think that's what we are all saying, that we do need to help them. The only difference I see is in Quincy's judgment an oversimplification of how difficult recovery can be; and a harshness about it, that "just get over it" mentality. That's what I take issue with, since I often see that as detrimental to recovery. The idea that recovery is easy and accomplished with just a change of mindset. As you say to the young women you work with, it takes much work and strength. But while I don't say so to my young people, there are also physiological factors that may come into play; that can be real obstacles in recovery. So, I"m just curious if you could elaborate with an example of someone encouraging someone NOT to get better. I'm just finding a hard time myself with coming up with such an example.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:11 am
As an adult did Michael think there was anything odd about what he was doing? The stuff that 'normal' people saw as very weird.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:14 am
OG, a few days ago I posted the lyrics to a song written by Michael called "Childhood", where he talks about his 'eccentricities' as a reaction to his childhood. So I think there was awareness there. And certainly he reached out at times to some in some effort at recovery. (Chopra for example) But I also think he had the double damning effect of fame that got in his way. Since he was the youngest and the most talented, he got a lot of attention for that talent, and like many talented people, probably was tiptoed around in some ways. And later in life, those who told him to get help found the vascillating Michael. Admitting he needed it, and then avoiding them for months or years at a time.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:23 am
I don't think Michael had any sense of self other than the Michael on stage. I think much of his private life was spent trying to figure out who he was as an individual. I think as much as he wanted to be "normal", he couldn't escape himself unless he was on Stage. I do think his tremendous fame brought enablers to him.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:24 am
Purely supposition, of course, but I think a possible example of people encouraging someone not to get better or at least not encouraging him to get better could be some of the people surrounding Michael Jackson. Michael was making a lot of money at one point (functioning as he was) and I could see some of his associates not wishing to risk interfering with that process and the benefits that they were receiving from Michael's success.
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:26 am
My problem with Quincy is that he is so judgemental and free with his opinions after Michael died and AFTER he made millions from Michael. I read an interesting article about the man who helped bail Michael out and invested in Neverland. When Michael was heading for bankruptcy, he had a brief conversation with him and he recalled saying to him in a kind way, Michael you cant be a child forever, everyone hsa to grow up. He said something clicked with that brief conversation and Michael started taking over his finances, writing the checks and taking control of his money. He became more interested in where his money was and where it was going. Michael's problems in my mind started in childhood, being beaten, being forced to perform in strip joints at age six and progressed to where at no point in his life did anyone really take care of him and protect him. He was used from day one. His mother, who I ams ure is a great woman, didnt interfere in the beatings, didnt interfere with any of the father's or Barry Gordy's decisions which robbed him of a childhood. He really was a tragic figure and Quincy Jones is just another example of those folks who made millions from him and had no understanding or empathy for him. I am pretty sure too that Quincy is getting a nice penny from the increased Thriller sales as well.
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:26 am
Obviously, I seem to be having trouble articulating my meaning. But, I'll try, Kar. When you tell people that it's okay, they can't help themselves because of what happened to them, they do what they do because of what was done to them and they can carry that around with them, cause harm, be it emotional or physical, to others because they don't know better...then you are encouraging them NOT to get better. You are encouraging them to allow themselves to continue the chain of destruction because they "can't help" what was done to them, they can't overcome it. I have seen this. I have seen others enable people because of the idea that their traumas allow them to excuse their current behaviors. I am NOT saying that everyone can easily overcome their past. But I, personally, do believe that many times people are encouraged to continue to "wallow" in the past rather than move forward to a better future. (I know that "wallow" may be a harsh word here. I am having trouble articulating. I'm trying to get a meaning across, which, of course, can be taken in a way I do not intend) The idea of personal responsibility resonates strongly with me. I understand that some things can never be overcome. I understand that some people can never move forward because the trauma is simply too much for them. But when I see folks telling other folks that they "can't help" how they behave, I, personally, believe that is not encouraging someone to get better. I also understand that not everyone will agree with me or even understand what I am saying. I can only say that my own personal struggle to overcome the traumas of my childhood...and there were many...has led me, personally, to take a "harder" position on not using excuses from the past for current behavior. It's much easier to say, "I can't help it" than it is to say "I can overcome it and move forward and be better." Again...this does NOT apply to everyone, of course. But we seem to have become a society in which there is no longer any personal responsibility. I will say a few vague things about my own past: there was much abuse, much fear, much agony. I carried it around. I used it as both shield and sword. It took me many many years to accept that I could not change the past, I could only change the future. And that change was, ultimately, my very own responsibility. Sometimes, I so wish we could all just sit together with a cup of coffee and some cookies and talk because so much is lost in translation here. We all see things from our own perspectives. We are colored by our own personal events. I am simply sharing this from my own view of things, as each of you are sharing from yours. This is one of the ways we grow in thought and deed...by learning from eachother.
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Chewpito
Member
01-04-2004
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:36 am
So do I Beek,...what a round table that would be....
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Chewpito
Member
01-04-2004
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:36 am
So do I Beek,...what a round table that would be....
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:37 am
So nice, she said it twice. Wouldn't it be awesome? I love ya, Chewie.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:40 am
Beekind, I don't think you and I are far off on this issue. I don't know any therapists personally that tell someone they 'can't help it'. I do know some that say you 'couldn't help it, but you can change now." Or that you have to learn how to stop yourself, or change that behavior, or whatever. I don't think of such as an 'excuse' but an 'explanation'. Now, I may say to someone when talking about my clients that someone 'can't help it' currently; but always with the eye to helping them understand how that behavior developed; and how we are trying to change it. We have some children who have temper outbursts. They 'can't help it." But that doesn't mean we don't have consequences for that behavior, because it is our aim to help them learn to stop them. So I try to draw a distinction between acting willfully, and acting out a learned/nonthinking behavior response. I don't think people can help it until they have learned to make the distinction between learned reflexive behavior, and stopping and thinking about their behavior and making choices. The sad truth is that for many people they don't even know the difference. They think they are thinking and making choices, but really they are only reacting. Like you, I suffered horrific abuse as a child. In great part I have recovered from this and rarely think about it. But there was a point in my life, during recovery in fact, that it was all that I could think about. For me, that was part of the carthasis necessary to recover. I rarely identify myself as an 'abused child' these days. Yet I am still aware that for a great deal of my life, I was a mess. And I didn't have any comprehension that I was a mess. In that way, I did many things that I probably 'couldn't help', but which I still take responsibility for. So I don't necessarily see those two concepts as opposites.
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Stacey718995
Member
07-05-2007
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:41 am
Karunna has done an excellent job in presenting stuff in this thread so I won't ramble on about it. I got my Phd in child psychiatry to work in a school setting, high school to be exact. I am one of the few lucky ones that truly has no recollection of any childhood trauma at any level. Someone up above brought up something about those not understanding childhood trauma not having sympathy. The only thing that I really wanted to add to all of this is that I have always found it intriguing and interesting that in my studies and working with anything related to childhood trauma is that less sympathy has almost always come from those that experienced trauma themselves. Of course, this is not 100% of the case. But, in general, I have found that people that have been able to "move on" struggle the most with understanding or tolerating behaviors of those that can't find the means to move on. I am not accusing anyone of that at all, I don't know everyone's personal story and it is theirs to keep and deal with in their own way, so please don't think I am pointing fingers. My personal experiences with working with victims is all that I am stating this on.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:49 am
MJ was obviously not constantly a child or in a child like state. He separated it when he had to. I don't think he had multiple personality disorder.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 11:50 am
Oh of course, being able to continue on with life and not just dwell on the past, if you can do that, can be positive (as long as words like "get over it" or "whining" aren't used much). I've always told people that the best revenge is to survive, to thrive, keep living and leave behind abusive people or enabling people. Absolutely. I worked many many hotline hours where sometimes hope was all you had to give someone.. hope and RESOURCES and then the ability to let them talk, but still to encourage the positive, to seek out the smallest thing they could think of to hold onto, to get through that night/day but then to get more support. I went through workshops where we planned ahead, creating literal boxes with strategies.. list of things that help you to cope, maintain, list of people who are able to help.. and exactly what they might be willing to help with.. some people cannot sit and listen, don't ask for that. Some can. Others might just be willing to go someplace for fun, or go with you for moral support.. but just having strategies in place often means you are less likely to have to use them because you don't come as "undone". I think someone like Michael, being famous and even infamous, he didn't have the chance at some types of support.. like he couldn't have gone to a survivor conference without hoopla. Actually he probably COULD have and been accepted but that would have been hard for him to try. With celebs who are also survivors, they can later lend support.. like Marilyn Vanderbur (Attler) who was Miss America and later spoke out about the incest in her family.. she would come to conferences and be of great support (she's very empathetic, a great listener) but also receive support herself. Joan Baez showed up at one conference I attended in San Francisco, as support for two women who were suing their father, but also as a survivor herself. I don't think she's talked that much about her ritual abuse and being multiple, but she definitely put it out in liner notes and in some songs). Anyway, I don't think Michael ever got to be around people who would hear him and validate his feelings. ======== Kar, I'm not sure what Beek is referring to, but what I used to see all too often was someone being diagnosed and hospitalized but then basically the insurance policy being milked and depleted and then the person being back out on the sidewalk but now perhaps without a job, without resources and pretty much abandonned by the professionals who had them hospitalized. That doesn't cover the vast majority of professionals, but I saw it and the aftermath of it. I know when my therapist first suspected that I was multiple, he asked if he could consult ( I had to give permission) and in this area back then we had some people considered to be experts who had worked with the population and reported success. The first person he talked to said "you have to hospitalize her". He wasn't too impressed with that, especially since she hadn't even met me. He saw no reason for that at that time since I was working at a job I loved (and of course starting to address my past and memories was not helping, but therapy was helping) and active and able to pay for therapy. But I had chosen well, it turned out, because he didn't stop there but decided to contact the author of Sybil, Flora Rheta Schreiber, but she was out on a speaking tour.. her husband suggested that Dr Wilbur was semi retired but still seeing patients and consulting and, heck, her number was even listed in the Lexington phone book.. and that was who he called next. The idea was that she would suggest someone in So Cal and she did but he was at UCLA and it would be many months before he could have even seen us. Lucky again.. meanwhile, she started supervising by phone.. she had access to all writing I/we had done, artwork, etc. and his notes and she was extremely helpful. She also saw absolutely no reason I should be summarily hospitalized. And later on she was on her way to a conference of the AMA and came to LA to catch up with friends she had met when she was a consultant for the Sybil mini series and Lauren Bacall, who she had known back when both live in NYC. And she also came to do a long session with me and my therapist which we videotaped. Another time I was sent to Atlanta on a business trip and stopped in Lexington on the way home. My therapist flew in and we met again with Dr Wilber and again video taped. Massively helpful. I had to do much hard work, but I was lucky to have this team on my side. And it doesn't have to be someone well known, just someone who is really on your side and caring and willing to learn. OH.. back to encouraging not to get better.. I think "Eve" (Chris) was exploited by her therapists for their own papers, book and film story and they never encouraged the work she might have done to really find out what happened to her. And they literally had her sign away rights to her story. She did write a couple of books later and she was supportive of other and such, but it was sad that she was used more than she was treated (I'm not alone in thinking that, of course). And there are often well-meaning friends and family who tend to enable people to remain not so independent. Just watch "Intervention" and you see each show that there are usually people in the life of the person being featured who enables them to continue their drug, or eating disorder, whatever. They almost always mean well. And it sure can be hard to get someone to listen, especially if they haven't come to you FOR help. Clearly some people did try to convince Michael Jackson not to endanger himself, not to spend so much, not to have children in his bed, innocent or not, but he wasn't taking that in. I suspect he simply didn't know who to trust and instead tried to buy friends, but then he'd ask them to support him in ways that were really hurtful to him. Those who tried to hard were cut out of his life and new "friends" (attorneys, doctors, etc.) moved on in. Kar, I'm sure you have been that "one person" for any number of kids. I know in a few cases I was able to learn later that I'd been in the right place at the right time for someone and they at least felt that it was key for them.. that's powerful, but of course in all of those cases, they also had done the work and participated in their road to thriving. Other times? You really don't get feedback, but you just have to put that support out into the universe and hope some of it hits the right person when they can accept it.
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:18 pm
There was an inclination in the middle of the last century, that continues today, that everything, including mental illness, could be cured with a pill. Considering the scope of mental illness, there is a large incentive to finding those chemical cures. What would happen to all the therapists, outreaches, if we suddenly could cure mental illness?
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:23 pm
Seems I wasn't the only having trouble posting.
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:25 pm
I have one of Chris Sizemore's books. In the epilogue, she says this: ...many hands reached down and lifted me from the dark pit, and I gratefully accepted each one. But I first had to reach up. I first had to want to help myself. ...I know that it was worth the struggle. As I hold my small granddaughter in my arms, I know that she is indeed the final Eve, because I am in control of my life, I am comfortable in my world. I know that there will be adjustments to make, that there will be grief with the joy, pain with the pleasure, ugliness with the beauty. But this is a part of living. Mine is a story of inspiration and love...I am now stable. I have adjusted to my problem. I now lead a full and rewarding life. It is a great big world and I am a small part, a functioning part.
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:31 pm
Sheesh Beek, that quote is going to stir up a whole new direction. That is how did she know how to reach up?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:39 pm
LOL, Gidget, that is exactly right. That is indeed an important question. As I noted, in my life, I had no clue how messed up I was. Right up until my late 20's I would have 'said' I was fine; although deep down inside, I thought I was truly worthless but a great actress. And I surely wasn't about to confess that to anyone! I only reached out because I had a mild nervous breakdown; and ended up hospitalized. It was then what some friends had been saying recently finally clicked with me. That it was okay to get help. But it was many many years climbing out of that hole, even when I did reach up.
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