Author |
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 4:28 pm
Bob Bogle
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Holly
Member
07-22-2001
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 5:24 pm
This is getting worse than an obit column. Who is Bob Bogle?
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 5:57 pm
Bob was a guitarist for the Ventures. He died mid-June. Many famous guitarists credit Bob as their inspiration and he was an innovator in the field. Really influential to the music of the last 50 years.
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Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 6:16 pm
I wonder if Joe lives (and has a gf) in Vegas, I think I heard he had a place there. I thought I heard he and Kathrine werent together together. Michael made a point of not mentioning his dad, surely he would know if his mom raised his kids and his dad and mom still lived together his dad would have some influence. Makes me think he knew dad didnt stay home often. I think he was known as a cheater. Interesting about Diana, I would have thought it would be a brother or Rebe. What happens if Kathrine and Diana can not take the kids, who is next in line?
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Stacey718995
Member
07-05-2007
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 6:28 pm
I wonder if it is now their (Katherine and Diana's) decision where the kids go? That is if they can't care for them
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Karen
Member
09-06-2004
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 6:29 pm
Janet?
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 9:25 pm
Interesting interview with Quincy Jones in Details. Here's a small portion: Q: Did you believe him about the [skin] disease? A: I don't believe in any of that bullshit, no. No. Never. I've been around junkies and stuff all my life. I've heard every excuse. It's like smokers—"I only smoke when I drink" and all that stuff. But it's bullshit. You're justifying something that's destructive to your existence. It's crazy. I mean, I came up with Ray Charles, man. You know, nobody gonna pull no wool over my eyes. He did heroin 20 years! Come on. And black coffee and gin for 40 years. But when he called me to come over to see him when he was in the hospital on his way out, man, he had emphysema, hepatitis C, cirrhosis of the liver, and five malignant tumors. Please, man! I've been around this all my life. So it's hard for somebody to pull the wool over my eyes. But when somebody's hell-bent on it, you can't stop 'em. Q: But it must've been so disturbing to see Michael's face turn into what it turned into. A: It's ridiculous, man! Chemical peels and all of it. And I don't understand it. But he obviously didn't want to be black. Q: Is that what it was? A: Well, what do you think? You see his kids? Q: Did you ever discuss it? Did you ever ask, "Michael, don't you want to be a black man?" A: No, no, no, please. That's not the way you do it. Q: But he was beautiful before? A: Man, he was the most gorgeous guy. Q: But he seemed to have some deep-seated issue with how he looked? A: Well, that comes about a certain way. I'm not sure how it happens. I'm just a musician and a record producer. I'm not a psychiatrist. I don't understand all that stuff. We all got problems. But there's a great book out called Too Soon Old, Too Late Smart. Did you see that? That book says the statute of limitations has expired on all childhood traumas. Get your stuff together and get on with your life, man. Stop whinin' about what's wrong, because everybody's had a rough time, in one way or another. Q: I've heard you say that you wanted Michael to sing "She's Out of My Life," the great pop ballad from Off the Wall, in part because you felt like he had to deal with reality. A: I just wanted to hear him deal with a romantic relationship with a human being rather than a rat. I'm saying that facetiously, but it's true. I saw him at the Oscars very emotional about "Ben." I wanted to hear him get in touch with a real human relationship. "She's Out of My Life" was written by Tommy Bahler from a very bad ending to a marriage. So it was very real. I was saving it for Sinatra. But I gave it to Michael. And Michael cried during every take, and I left the tears in.
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Chewpito
Member
01-04-2004
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 9:53 pm
Wow, Thats harsh
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 10:25 pm
But there's a great book out called Too Soon Old, Too Late Smart. Did you see that? That book says the statute of limitations has expired on all childhood traumas. Get your stuff together and get on with your life, man. Stop whinin' about what's wrong, because everybody's had a rough time, in one way or another. Amen, Q.
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Colordeagua
Member
10-25-2003
| Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 11:46 pm
I agree, Bee and Q.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 7:51 am
I guess that some people are so badly damaged in their childhoods that they just can never heal. This has made me think of 'Sybil' and her multiple personalities. Perhaps Michael had two personalities with the real Michael long hidden and buried deep down. And the Michael we saw was his only way to cope with the world.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:05 am
Well, getting over childhood trauma is no different than getting over other major losses in life. No one would think to say "yeah, you were in Iraq and saw all kinds of horrific things - just get over it." Or if your spouse or child died, no one would say "just get over it". but when it comes to childhood trauma, things that happen to you when you have no coping skills at all, well, yeah, just get over it. I am often astonished and dismayed at the heartlessness of those comments. They only re-victimize people who have already suffered enough. I certainly think there is great help out there for those who have suffered, and I would strongly encourage people to put recovery from trauma as a very important must-do goal. But the idea that they can somehow just quit talking about it and get on with life is quite unkind.
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Gumby
Member
08-14-2004
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:20 am
I think it is very hard for those that weren't abused mentally or physically, to understand. It's difficult to relate to a situation you've never been in. We think we can, but we really can't. I had a wonderful childhood. I had parents who loved each other immensely. They had a unique ability to make each of their 7 children believe they were the favorite. They sacrificed for their family and all of our needs were met. You've educated me today, Karuuna and I thank you for that. I need to be more understanding to situations I have no knowledge of. Not just this situation, but in many other ways too.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:45 am
Telling someone to get over anything comes across as rather harsh. It is a very tough way to phrase it. All the same, in this situation, I think it is a little different than telling an Iraqi war veteran to get over it or telling someone who recently lost a child or spouse to just get over it. Michael's childhood ended about 30 years ago so he had 30 years to start to cope with whatever trauma he suffered. I understand that there are some things that a person can never get over but one would hope in the kindest way that a person could make some progress after all those years.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:53 am
Unfortunately, what people don't understand is that childhood trauma is far worse than trauma you suffer as an adult. Trauma that happens when you don't have life skills/coping mechanisms, and during the years when you are learning how to understand life, is far more pervasive than trauma suffered in later years. You learn a specific way about life, that is unhealthy. And it is very difficult to 'unlearn' that way, just as it is far more difficult to learn a foreign language as an adult than it is as a child. In addition, psychological research has shown that some things *must* be learned as a child. For example children who are not presented with language early on have difficulty hearing certain sounds as adults; and generally can never learn to comprehend the rules of grammar. Similarly, research shows that if empathy is not learned at an early age (most studies show that as by age 5 or so), it is impossible to have true empathy as an adult. One can have 'learned empathy', but learned empathy is not as comprehensive and generally only applies to situations you have experienced yourself. In other words, you cannot genralize that empathy to other people's painful experiences, unless they are very similar. There is much more that we simply do not understand about the brain's learning capacities, and what concepts can only be learned at an early age - simply because it would be unethical to conduct such experiments. We can only extrapolate data from people who have suffered certain situations and even then those situations have infinite variety and complexity - unlike experimental situations. So, it is far more complex, than just a matter of time. Again, such an assumption ignores the complexity and difficulty of the traumas suffered by children; as well as our relative lack of understanding of how neurological systems are involved. FWIW, much of my graduate degree program was spent in research showing that the brains of trauma victims are actually different than those who have not been traumatized; and those differences affected other neurological and hormonal systems in the body as well. For example, those who have suffered trauma reflexively (that is without conscious control) release natural opioids to self-medicate when faced with any new difficult situation. This physiological response occurred even when talking about stressful situations. This is often what makes therapy extremely difficult, think of it as every time you try to talk through the trauma to help heal it, they've just taken a shot of morphine, and so simply cannot think clearly.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 8:58 am
As you've explained it, I can see that childhood trauma would be far worse. There is little defense against it and the child is sadly learning things about life that will affect him or her long into the future. So I guess childhood and adult trauma are not comparable. I wonder why some people seem to be able to recover from childhood trauma and others are deeply affected for the rest of their lives?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:02 am
Jimmer, that is certainly one of the mysteries that those of us who deal with trauma victims think about incessantly. Again, FWIW, natural IQ and reading ability are the most predictive of recovery. Specifically, if a child is reading at grade level by grade three, they will likely have a better outcome; than do children who are behind in reading achievement at that age. There are other studies that show that the presence of *one* supportive adult, even if that adult is not a parent is a good predictor of later life success. That's why education (true quality education for all); and mentoring programs are so very important. ETA: Whatever the case is with predicting better outcomes, or the neurological limitations of having suffered trauma at an early age, it is certainly our practice to *assume* everyone can recover; and to work with integrity toward that goal. We are just also aware that there is much we don't know, and so work to have infinite patience with setbacks and speed of recovery, as well as knowing that some recoveries may be limited in scope.
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Holly
Member
07-22-2001
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:32 am
<I wonder why some people seem to be able to recover from childhood trauma and others are deeply affected for the rest of their lives?> Wouldn't it have to do with how sensitive the person is, what type of personality, etc?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:34 am
This is really sad.. Jermaine wishing he had died instead.. link
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Beekindpleez
Member
07-18-2006
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:44 am
If this were a private thread, I might discuss this in more detail. But, since it's not, I won't. I will say, though, that I agree with him that everyone has had a tough time in one way or another and I, personally, believe that many people use their tough times as an excuse not to lift themselves up and do better. Another book that addresses this issue is Bad Childhood, Good Life.
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:44 am
The book starts off slow and with an all too familiar hard luck story, but in Jones's sad tale of woe, instead of daddy leaving, it was his mother who abandoned young Quincy and his siblings. He writes, "My mother had gone away sick one day and she never came back. That's all we knew." From that point on, readers get a huge peek into the humble and circuitous life of Jones with riveting stories about whippings from his gin-soaked father and being a less than perfect father himself to his own kids. He talks about dealing with the racial injustices of the 1940s, 50s and 60s, failed marriages, affairs and strained family relationships, particularly with his younger brother Lloyd, who succumbs to cancer. He regularly popped the tranquilizer Halcion in order to sleep. The powerful and mind- boggling drug Valium was also in his stash of medications. All of this leads Q to a near nervous breakdown. He writes, "I called Dr. Norton to tell him it was over. I needed help to find a sanitarium." http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HST/is_6_3/ai_80493447/ Yep Quincy led a perfect life and didnt whine about it. he only wrote a book
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:49 am
I agree that some people can get stuck in victimhood, and I thoroughly discourage that. On the other hand, I'm also saying that we don't even understand why some people get stuck and others don't; so I'm careful not to judge so harshly. I get that some people think it is simply a matter of will. I'm saying that human beings are more complex than that, and neuroanatomy so complex that we don't really understand it at all. With so little knowledge about how personality is formed, and how certain chronic self-destructive behaviors become integrated in neurophysiology, it seems wise and kind to me to not make such judgments. That's based on the science of it (or lack thereof), not some emotional position about it.
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 9:55 am
I have not read the book Quincy mentions but I would be willing to bet he misstated it. It reminds me of my favorite psychologist, Albert Ellis and Rational Emotive Therapy. Albert does not discount early trauma, nor does he say get over it. But he does say, get on with life and I think that is healthy. You can choose to wallow in the bad times and allow it to ruin the rest of your life. Or you can make new decisions for yourself and TRY to live the life YOU want. One of the keys to Ellis is that as a child you are powerless over much of what happens to you. But you are not powerless as an adult and you alone are responsible (there's that dirty word again) for the decisions you make.
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Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:06 am
Here is a good definition from wikipedia... you will note it is not about being unkind, it is about understand: RT to a large extent sought the therapist help the client understand — and act on the understanding —that his personal philosophy contained beliefs that contributed to his own emotional pain. This new approach stressed actively working to change a client's self-defeating beliefs and behaviours by demonstrating their irrationality, self-defeatism and rigidity. Ellis believed that through rational analysis and cognitive reconstruction, people could understand their self-defeatingness in light of their core irrational beliefs and then develop more rational constructs.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 10:25 am
I absolutely agree people should work, very hard, to put childhood trauma in perspective and make the very best of their lives. And every client I work with has that goal, and I encourage it. The unkind part to me is judging too harshly when someone is having difficulty moving past it, or still has lingering issues, even after working on it. While we act as if the client has limitless recovery potential, we must always keep in mind, IMO, that may not be physiologically true. It's a difficult balance to strike, indeed.
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