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Archive through April 03, 2009

Reality TVClubHouse Discussions: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Jan ~ Apr 2009: Free Expression: Dang the Economy (ARCHIVES): Archive through April 03, 2009 users admin

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Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I agree that taxing smokers to pay for children's health care seems a bit of a disconnect. However, it is true that the diseases and disabilities caused by smoking cause an unusually heavy load on government paid medical care. For serious illness, health insurance generally runs out long before the person dies (sorry to be morbid) and they end up on Medicare.

Much like not wearing helmets on motorcycles.

However, that does not seem to be the issue raised earlier, that 7 mentally ill people caused an undue burden, and should instead get jobs and get their own benefits. Which is highly unrealistic, IMO.

And of course smoking and motorcycle riding are choices. Being mentally ill is not.

Beekindpleez
Member

07-18-2006

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 7:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beekindpleez a private message Print Post    
That was used as an example of the ways in which taxpayer money is misused. Over and over again. That's it.
It was NOT a comparison.

Scooterrific
Member

07-08-2005

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 7:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Scooterrific a private message Print Post    
f that is what she meant, that is not what she said. (by the way, Foot the bill for all "what??")

She said: I say, get off your butt - get a job that has benefits or at least go make a living so you can get your own insurance. I'm tired of picking up the slack!

this is what she said before: the gripe was about the tax on cigarettes...
And, what's the deal with taxing & taxing & taxing again one of my only vices - cigarettes! Most folks at work don't even realize that I smoke. I, however enjoy my cigs with a couple of bacardi/dt cokes after a long, full day at the office. As of tomorrow, my cigs will be costing $75/carton (don't know the price of a pk because I always buy them by the carton & keep them in the fridge to save a little money). I understand the whole health issue. I was told just a wk ago by my Dr. that I am very healthy & that's all I need to know. Gvmt. is taxing tobacco to pay for Medical care for those who do not have insurance.

Gidget
Member

07-28-2002

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 7:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Gidget a private message Print Post    
If cigarettes should be taxed because smokers are such a danger... then grocery carts should be taxed. That bean dip and Fritos may make you fat and then a burden on the general public in increased medical needs. Even if you pay your own way, you may use the ambulance that I need to save me when my perfect non-smoking, non-fat, non-meat, non-sugar...etc., life gets sick anyway.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:01 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
Wow, this thread is really making me think that I should consider any purchases I make to see if they are necessary or frivilous, just incase I should one day be out of a job ( I mean I do that now, but now it's a bit more serious). Huh, makes me think back to things I've spent money on that were unnecessary. Also makes me really want to start trying to put some more money in savings as well. Luckily I have an insured mortgage. If I lose my job, they will pay most or all of it for up to six months.

I'll bet a lot of things are majorly dropping off right now, like plastic surgeries, fertility treatments, new car purchases, etc.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
That was used as an example of the ways in which taxpayer money is misused.

How was money misused??? Those people needed help. I don't see a misuse at all. Perhaps the powers that be should have sent the people to a mental facility instead of home again, but then likely the same amount of $$ would have been used.

I think people need to have more compassion for their fellow human beings.

Beekindpleez
Member

07-18-2006

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beekindpleez a private message Print Post    
You don't consider three million dollars spent on just nine people a misuse of tax payer dollars?

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
I think people need to go back to the ways of thinking post depression era where you saved, reused, and didn't spend 10's of thousands of dollars on things that were unecessary.


And 333,333 is a lot of money for one person, I agree, misuse of taxpayer money. Why did they get that much?

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
The problem is that society helping to pay for health care and how much should be paid is a moral issue. How much is a person's life worth?

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
And is one person's life worth more than anothers?

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 9:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Escapee, because they never got the mental health care they *really* needed, apparently.

I apologize for misunderstanding the flow of conversation. I think the connection between the 7 mentally ill people was actually drawn by a subsequent post, but was used as a justification for being fed up with people getting public health care.

It can get awfully confusing in here!

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 9:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
Getting back to topic here..
One store closing has a huge effect... lets do a ripple down here...
Someone builds the building...
Someone buys the land and the building....
Some company leases the building to start a buisness..
Buisness owner hires people to work for him, He has to hire people to bring product for sales to his/her building..
Has to pay for insurance to have company/hire people/potential lawsuits from said customers...
The people go to doctors,dentists,eye doctors with their insurance from the job...
it goes on and on...
Buisness goes bankrupt because owner can no longer afford rent on property...
wharehouses loose buisness cause they no longer supply for buisness...Truck drivers loose jobs cause they wont deliver the product...the factory's that make the product for buisness loose jobs or hours because no longer needed...
People loose jobs from owner going out of buisness..
people cant afford to go to doctors,...
cant afford to go to gym's,movies,dinner...ect.
cant afford to buy a car because they dont have money...
So now other buisness are involved and feeling the crunch...so they make lay offs... and the people left to work are working twice/three times as hard....get stressed/sick/hurt... but cant afford care and become a burden...

I could go on and on...but you get the picture...
This is a mess.

I have found that there really are not "real jobs" out there anymore.... some, but not many.
If you have a full time job with benifits you are a rarity... Most jobs are part time and pay little...
This is just what I see....

I like to have a couple glasses of wine at night.. Tax it....whatever...
If I want it, I most likley will find a way to have it...or learn to go with out....
Im going with out a lot lately and I almost recomend every one trying that and seeing how it is...cause just because one company goes down...its not just one company.....its a chain, and you could be on that link.... just saying.

Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 9:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Happymom a private message Print Post    
"Like choosing to pay our mortgage over health insurance..."

Julie, I am so sorry to hear that. I hope things turn around for your family financially soon.

I posted on 3/20 (or close to then) in this thread about low cost insurance. But I know if there is no money for it, there is no money for it. I just wanted to share something. One of our kids had appendicitis, it ruptured. She is ok now. Even though we have insurance, we were severally underinsured. The hospital bill (not including Dr. charges) (ER Dr., surgeon, aanesthesiologist) was $100,000...and some diagnostic and lab things are not included in that either. The insur paid $35,000 and after the discounts, we are left with $40,000 which we cannot pay.

The reason I am sharing this is because, she didn't have cancer, she didn't have a serious car accident etc, she had appendicitis, which although very serious, is actually somewhat routine. And it cost $100,000+. (crappy insurance, yes, but we didn't know that) But it is better than no insurance.

There are plans out there for a few hundred dollars that after a high deductible, will cover the rest up to about $6 million or even no limit.

If we hadn't had insurance, the hospital would have given us a 40% discount if we paid the entire balance due within 30 days. That's it. That is the only deal we could have made with them. Even the $40,000 they want in 24 mos. Sorry, we can't do it and they won't change. That is over $1600 per mo, we can't pay that and they won't take less.

But, if there is no money for insurance, there just isn't. I read a book called Digging Out of Debt. The author was concerned most with keeping her house (because it would have been cheaper to keep her mortgage than to pay rent) and make sure her kids had food. She could not think of anything else. Sometimes she did not have a fridge but kept her food outside in the winter. She never bought anything to drink, they all only had water ever. She only bought clothes at garage sales and thrift stores and never more than needed. She carefully found out what they needed for basic nutrition and that is what they had and no more. She scrounged around for free firewood/scraps of wood because that is the only way she had heat at times.

My point here is that if you can afford some health insurance, do it if at all possible. If there is no way, there just is no way like the author above.

I know it is hard to think this sometimes, but it is all only money. It does make life much easier to not have to worry about it, but it is only money. After knowing I could have lost my daughter when she had the ruptured appendix, I am so grateful to still have her.

Just some different perspectives...

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 9:53 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
Happymom, I'm glad you brought that up about the med insurance..
My Daughter also worked full time but could not afford the insurance as she is trying to pay student loans,rent,and all that...200 out of her paycheck just wasn't possible...
She has female problems and needs to go to the doc. every 3 months for test,blood work,biopsies the whole works and she is paying out of pocket..
The lab where she has her blood and stuff done..offers 20% discount if you don't have insurance... but they don't tell you that, I found out by accident one day when paying a bill for her and mentioned how this was so draining as she had no insurance...The lady tells me then that "well if she has no insurance at all she gets the 20% discount)..I sure wish we would have known that before it would have saved a huge amount....
Doctors get tons of samples, but you need to ask for them.... they rarely offer...
What's that saying.."the squeaky wheel gets the grease"... It never hurts to ask for plans or programs that they may offer but not tell you about....You need to ask.

Texasdeb
Member

05-23-2003

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 5:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Texasdeb a private message Print Post    
I am truly sorry for stepping on a some of you great folks' toes with my "get off your butt----cause I'm tired of picking up the slack" comment I made in my last post. It wasn't directed to any of you TVCH people. I should have included that it was directed to those people that look for loopholes in the system so they can get gvmt. assistance. That's not a new problem with the system - it's been going on for as long as I can remember. I DO have compasion for folks like some of you great people that have been hit the hardest in this economy mess! Some of your situations that you've been so kind to share with us have touched me deeply.

You folks have made me realize that I am very thankfull that I still have my job & maybe I need to just quit whining about "my" sacrifices. Please forgive!

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
what a wonderful post Texasdeb..... and so forgiven.....times are just bad....there will always be abuser's...We just do are best.... thank's for the post.....

Texasdeb
Member

05-23-2003

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Texasdeb a private message Print Post    
thank you, Chewpito - times ARE bad & all of us are feeling it.

Watching2
Member

07-07-2001

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Watching2 a private message Print Post    
Texasdeb, We all can say things which come out wrong at times. I've certainly done it enough times. I'm sure you didn't realize people would get upset or you wouldn't have said it.

I've been really quiet about the fact that my oldest DD is getting assistance because frankly, I've been embarrassed. She went w/o insurance for a long time even when she was working after she lost her good job in Ithaca, NY. She worked anything she could find and none of them paid enough for her to afford any kind of health insurance.

She had many illnesses which she just coped with on her own. Last summer, she got so ill she had to go to the hospital more than once. To tell you the truth, I was shocked at how much they charged for the ED. She spent 5 days in the regular hospital and it didn't cost as much as the one night in the ED. Why?! That didn't make much sense to me. They didn't do anything other than blood work on her that I recall. It's crazy.

It just seems like it's always the rich get richer and the middle class is slipping away. Pharmaceutical companies will tell they have to charge so much for A PILL since it takes so many years of testing and getting it approved. I know part of that is true, but all the expense just keeps getting passed on down.

I don't know what is going to happen or how long it will take for things to get better. We always hoped our kids would be able to do better than us or at least as well. My parents felt the same way and it just keeps getting harder.

Hang in there everyone. TexDeb, we all get frustrated. I'm not upset with you.

Texasdeb
Member

05-23-2003

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 7:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Texasdeb a private message Print Post    
That's just "it", watching - middle class is fading away!

Biscottiii
Member

05-29-2004

Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 10:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Biscottiii a private message Print Post    
Kar said "And of course smoking and motorcycle riding are choices. Being mentally ill is not."

By the same token, isn't 'having children' a choice, as well? Later, requiring the Smokers to cover the kids health insurance because they had more kids than they can financially afford?

I'm just waiting to see all the shortfalls in our state budget being drawn up now. I figure the state will figure Smokers are responsible for education & law enforcement shortages. Surely John Q. Public should never be required to share the burden, only the "Sinful" are responsible.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, April 03, 2009 - 7:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Biscotti, many of those people had children when they *could* financially afford it, but have since lost their jobs. How exactly do we sort them out?

And even if they couldn't "afford them", should children go without basic health care - vaccinations and such - because their parents made that mistake?

It just hurts my head, sometimes, what exactly folks are supposed to do. They aren't supposed to abort, they aren't supposed to have children if they aren't positively sure they can provide for all their needs for their entire lives, they aren't supposed to ever lose a job, or get sick themselves, they aren't supposed to have children with catastrophic illnesses whose health care insurance runs out by the time they are three....

It just boggles my mind.

Now, I *did* say earlier that there is some disconnect between using smoker's taxes to fund children's health. Rather than be designated, it should just go into a general health fund, because smokers are a huge drain on government health expenses.

Marysafan
Member

08-07-2000

Friday, April 03, 2009 - 7:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Marysafan a private message Print Post    
Not going to get my hopes up too far but here there are some encouraging signs. Our major mining company took a real serious down turn at the first of the year.

1) They laid off over 300 workers and put another 300 on notice to be laid off in March.

2) They announced summer shut downs for both mines for the entire month of July.

Then...they cancelled the layoffs for March. Announced that there would be no summer shutdowns...and are in the process of recalling employees from lay off.

It looks like something positive is happening!

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Friday, April 03, 2009 - 8:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Mary, I've been kind of afraid to say anything, but we're seeing some positive too.

My bil (and his brothers, cousins, and most friends) were looking at layoffs pretty soon. Their company has two offices, one up here, one down near LA and even though they are the same company, they are independent. Well, their big contract up here is about done and they don't seem to have much more lined up, however, the office down near LA has just gotten a bunch of new contracts. So they're transferring the guys to the other office and now instead of more layoffs, they're looking at steady work for quite awhile.

Serenity
Member

06-28-2005

Friday, April 03, 2009 - 8:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Serenity a private message Print Post    
My husband got laid off from his current company position a month ago (for the 3rd time in 18 months) and has now had to move 5 hours away from myself and our kids to continue working for the same company. He thought about just taking UI, but that would have affected his seniority and pension.

My heart goes out to all families that are suffering displacement and financial burdens due to layoffs.

Beekindpleez
Member

07-18-2006

Friday, April 03, 2009 - 10:18 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beekindpleez a private message Print Post    
Now, I *did* say earlier that there is some disconnect between using smoker's taxes to fund children's health.

How about taxing a can of soda pop a dollar more? Or a candy bar tax of a dollar more?
I see a heck of a lot of kids sitting around eating candy bars and drinking soda.
How would you feel about a tax like that?
I would like it.

If I have to have the taxes raised on my vices that create health issues, perhaps a tax on unhealthy foods might deter some of those health issues as well.