Author |
Message |
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 9:39 am
Mocha, if you have ever met someone like this, (and I have, and dated him), you might understand the concern. Whether he has actually been violent or not, it's wise and prudent to be cautious. If he is off the edge, you're safer; and if he's not, no harm done. Why not take the safe route, just in case? So many women have explained away bad behavior, or made it out to not be so bad, and ended up harmed.... As I said, I'm only speculating in order to determine her safest choices. It seems to me for some reason they have an intuition that this man is more than just adulterous and lying. It's my experience that it's wise to pay attention to those hunches - they are more often right than wrong.
|
Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 9:44 am
Kar, the thing I'm having trouble with is how you jump from adulturer to sociopath. Again maybe there's more to the story that hasn't been written but I just find that jump, umm odd. But yes better safe than sorry...
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:00 am
When you say "you", I hope you aren't meaning me. I never called him one, because as you pointed out you can't diagnose someone online or second hand. All I said is that there are sociopaths in the world, and it's wise to be cautious. And even IRL, it would be out of my area anyway! Right from the start, Sharinia did say for many reasons that he "seemed" to be a sociopath. I'm assuming since they know him, they have real reasons for being worried. For me, it's that intuition that something is really wrong that should be paid attention to. Too many times I've seen women (and men!) ignore that feeling, and paying the price for ignoring it.
|
Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:11 am
Is that he has a lot of the personality traits of a sociopath? Which are the following: 1. SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, and slick. Not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. He never gets tongue-tied and has freed himself from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example. 2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. An arrogant guy who believes he is a superior human being. 3. NEED FOR STIMULATION (PRONENESS TO BOREDOM) -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Often has low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because he gets bored easily. 4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, and will be shrewd, crafty,cunning, sly, and clever (in extreme form, he will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest). 5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS -- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims. 6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims. 7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness. 8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless. 9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities. 10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily. 11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests. 12. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life. 13. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless. 14. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements. 15. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial. 16. MANY SHORT-TERM RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital. 17. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness. 18. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- A diversity of types of criminal offenses (regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them); taking great pride at getting away with crimes. (wow, all of these are my ex boyfriend to a T)
|
Costacat
Member
07-15-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:17 am
BTW, there's not much cops can do right now, since he's not done anything but lie about his marital status. The may advise getting a restraining order, but that might not be desirable (since he'd need to be served the restraining order). In domestic issues, the cops don't do anything if nothing has happened. Mocha does have some good points, though. We don't know the entire story, but just because someone lies about being married does not mean he's a sociopath. Just because he owns a gun and is interested in forensics doesn't mean he's going to go out and kill someone. You also don't know what his relationship with his wife is like. All that said, telling the wife is not going to solve anything. I would just get out of the relationship, not be available if he calls, and take it day by day.
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:22 am
hi all, thanks again for your candor and insights (VERY much) I am listening carefully to everything that is said here, and respect everyone's pov and am not offended if it is different than my own. I appreciate that everyone is taking the time to give their two cents and is being honest with me. I can only type briefly now, but just want to say that my family is really not 'interfering' here - my sister came to us with this, as she often does wrt her dating life (she is the baby of the family) It is just the dynamic of our family. She is asking for our suggestions. When I say 'my family this or that' - that may include her. She is thanking us profusely for spending so much time with her thinking about this and trying to help her - not asking us to butt out. And she is the one who wanted to tell the wife (and actually give her all of their email correspondence over the past year +). My parents and I have tried to persuade her not to, for fear that it will enrage him. And last time I spoke with her late last night, she said she agreed, and that she was mostly thinking out of anger/revenge. It is true that he has not exhibited any violent tendencies that we are aware of. I have been up front about this. But they do live in different states, obviously she has learned that she doesn't really 'know' him at all, and I believe from my understanding of sociopathic traits that does exhibit many. I actually had this convo with my mil - the distinction between the deception that comes along with cheating and other traits that are hallmarks of a sociopathic personality. Thanks for the list Escapee. If anyone isn't familiar, a person can be nonviolent and be classified a sociopath. And certainly cheaters do not have to exhibit these other traits Kar, I very much agree (and appreciate) what you have said here. Will write more later...
|
Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:36 am
Oh no Kar didn't mean you in 'you' lolol.
|
Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 11:32 am
Quietly, with dignity, she should back out of the relationship, citing that as much as she cared for him, she cannot reconcile herself to a relationship with a married man, as that goes against her principles, and she wishes him all the best. And to insist he please respect her wishes if he truly cares for her at all and back off. My point is to have her do this in the gentlest, but firmest way possible. (Not to rile him, yet to make her point.) And then for her to actually get on with her own life. If and when he calls she should be 'busy' and on her way out the door, etc, and repeat that it's over and she's getting on with her life. If he's a cheater, he's probably done it before, and if so, when he realizes he's getting nowhere with her, he'll scope out some other 'girlfriend' pretty darned quickly, cuz that's what these guys do. Their duplicitous egos require the excitement like a drug, in more ways than one, women are expendible to them. It's not the woman, it's the thrill of the duplicitous relationship, IMHO.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 12:00 pm
Mame, unfortunately, it really depends on the fella. Sometimes when you try to break something off with someone who has a real mental health issue, they don't move on, they become more obsessed, or enraged. I would modify your excellent advice by saying, DON"T answer the phone if he calls back. Completely ignore every entreaty or attempt at contact. It's really best that way. If he is an obsessive type, any contact will prolong his hope that she will respond, even if she's saying not interested.
|
Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 1:08 pm
Good point Kar, I guess I just meant that if he does catch her on the phone, or even worse, shows up at her door, she can just make herself scarce politely but firmly. ITA that total avoidance like you described above is probably the best bet.
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 5:18 pm
i have been reading over everything here again, and pondering your excellent advice (Mames, Kar, everyone) it is really very helpful - thank you i called my sis to share it in fact, but got her voice mail (hopefully she is ok) feeling pretty exhausted by this. going to try to relax some tonite.....whew
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 5:32 pm
Fear is exhausting, Sharinia. I hope you do get some down time this evening. One other thing, it's very understandable for your sis to feel angry and used, and to want to hurt him back (thus the impulse to out him to his wife). But if that's the driving impulse in contacting his wife, it's sounds like she's already accepted that it is a bad idea. It's one thing to be honestly concerned for her well being, it's another to try to hurt him by damaging that relationship, and well, hurting the wife too. My only concern for the wife is that if he is promiscuous, she is in danger of picking up some kind of STD. And of course, your sis needs to be checked for that as well, sadly. If it's any consolation to her, her best revenge (if she needs it) is moving on and NOT contacting him in any way. And doing what she can to heal the tears in her own heart. At some point, she'll need to do some self examination about how she fell for this guy - altho it shouldn't lapse into self blame. While there are often signs we choose to ignore, some of these guys are very very good at their manipulations.
|
Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Monday, December 17, 2007 - 9:38 pm
Thanks for raising the points that were bothering me too, Mocha. Saves me time. And Sharinia, I am glad yo know that your Sis came to the family, not vice versa. If it were a case of the entire family being able to see she is in a bad situation and her totally thinking she wants to marry the guy, that is a whole other situation. I am glad to know that is not the case. "I don't see married men. Period." seems to me to be the simplest way out.
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 6:56 am
Thanks, Kar and Juju. I am going to pass along what you said when I talk to her. I do worry like you said Karuuna that he might become obssessive, because two days ago he called her and said that he doesn't want to lose her, she is the most amazing woman he has ever met, he is thinking of leaving his wife, etc. My sis sent me an email with his address last night so I have that info just in case. (Of course, she only recently learned this through some internet searching.) Here is what she said btw "Thanks for checking in.....I am doing ok. VERY exhausted and work is keeping me very busy. I was on the phone tonight but will try to call you tomorrow. It won't be till night as I am very busy with work all day. Love ya and thanks so much for being here for me and all your support!"
|
Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 7:38 am
She's dating someone and doesn't know where he lives??
|
Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 8:52 am
Uh, that's strange. They've been dating for a year and a half and she didn't know where he lived. OK, huge red flag if you don't know where someone lives by the second or third week. Was everything fine and dandy in this relationship up until she found out he was married? No warning signs of his sociopathic behavior, anger issues, etc?
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 9:47 am
I have to admit that I often wonder how married people can keep an affair a secret from the other person in the affair over an extended period of time. Sooner or later, the person should want to see his home, meet his parents or some family and see some of his friends or working colleagues. Even showing up at his work to go on a date would be problematical. The only thing I could think of was a claim that the person was travelling and lived in another city but even that wouldn't hold up forever. In this situation, she knew he lived there in the same city and was a police officer. Didn't she ever want to see his place or do any of the other things that I mentioned?
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 10:47 am
I thought he lived in a different state? Am I mistaken? At any rate, it's a reminder that we need to be cautious. If something seems odd, it should be checked out. At the same time, there are lots of 'odd' folks that are quite trustworthy!
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 11:29 am
I just re-read the previous posts and that is right Karuuna. Thanks for pointing that out. I guess he must have had some explanation for why he would visit so often and never want her to visit him in turn?
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:00 pm
okay, calm down When I explain this you will see how deceptive and calculating he is. He lied about exactly where he lived. They met in a club our city. She was out with some friends and wasn't looking to meet anyone, much less someone out of state. She had not been dating and was focused on her work. She knew that he lived out of state (a 6 hr drive) but that he comes to our city periodically. At first it was casual - they emailed and talked on the phone occasionally. She was busy with work, and it was just a fun diversion. They really seemed to click, and he came out occasionally to visit her. She did ask and probe if he was married, getting the sense that something may not have been right. He broke down after 3 months and told her that he was harboring a 'secret.' It was that he was previously married and had a son (which actually is true). And that's why he couldn't be more commital, because he was so devoted to raising his son. And in the spirit of Dr Laura Schlessinger, he didn't want to introduce women he was dating to his young son unless it was really serious. He made himself out to be a REALLY great and responsible dad. Since my sis was not looking for a heavy relationship, and was busy with work, she didn't mind if their relationship progressed at a slower pace. Their interactions on the phone & email were always fun, and he visited occasionally and they had a great time. When she went to his state to visit, he pointed out his house (supposedly - it turned out to be his PRIOR house) but did not let her in (his 'rule' about protecting his son). As I mentioned earlier, whenever she visited, she was introduced to people close to him - in all she met about 5 of his friends, 3 co workers and his brother. They ALL played into his charade. If she ever still questioned the situation, she would think, and friends would assure her - there is NO way this guy could have introduced you to all of those people and be married. This guy btw talked about his son very often btw, and really went on about how he felt he owed it to him to give him most of his attention, not confuse him, etc. My sis thought wow, what an honorable guy. In general he was constantly making little remarks that suggested that he was a 'GOOD' man - he teaches DARE to young kids, he didn't admire his buddies who were promiscuous, he's always ribbed by his buddies for being 'the good one.' The truth was that they were giving him crap for being the biggest dog. My sister went back through his emails and recalled other conversations, and was stunned at how calculating he was at putting on this good guy veneer (eg "My son is more important to me than anything" "I believe that truth is so important in relationships" "I'm a man of my word," etc). Anyway, when he seemed to dance around Christmas plans, she started to really get suspicious. So she did a title search on his supposed house, and learned that he had in fact sold it a couple of years ago. She was able to research his new address, and saw that it was jointly held with a woman she had never heard of (not the ex). She more or less confronted him - he was able to read her suspicion, and came clean Does that help any?
|
Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:10 pm
ALl that reassurance that he is a "good guy" would have been my first clue. Like he is trying to convince himself by saying what an upstanding guy he is. No one who is a real good guy, has to try to convince you what a "good guy" he is.
|
Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:12 pm
Well it somewhat explains why she didn't know where he lived. Before I go out with someone I do the Zaba Search and check Maryland's Court Case site. But if I'm travelling 6hrs to visit him, uh were am I staying if not at his house??
|
Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:15 pm
Yeah, they were close enough for her to come "visit" him in another state, but not close enough (relationship wise) for her to meet his son. Gawd, there are so many red flags, i mean this was a YEAR AND A HALF.
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:22 pm
agreed Escapee We've been talking about that a lot. In fact we have had some laughs thinking that if she meets a good guy in the future, hopefully he won't say "I'm good/honest/etc" cause he'll get put under a microscope, if not axed, lol. It's hard though... I mean, my hubby openly considers himself a good man, and he actually is. Scary thing though - this guy said to my sis last week "I have a conscience." Who says that?? We agreed that it sounded like he was trying to convince her (or himself) that he does, knowing that he in fact doesn't. Yikes.
|
Sharinia
Member
09-07-2002
| Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 3:25 pm
I think she actually stayed with a friend in the area, Mocha. What is Zaba? Escapee, I appreciate your input if you really do care, but it sounds like you are just being judgmental and critical here. I hope that is not your intent.
|
|