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Archive through November 28, 2007

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Oct. 2007 ~ Dec. 2007: Parenting Place: Tips and Advice for Not So New Parents: Archive through November 28, 2007 users admin

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Sewmommy
Member

07-06-2004

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sewmommy a private message Print Post    
Thanks much for the ideas. There are only so many things that Mom can suggest with out the eye rolls starting or the "I don't need your help!" being screeched. She is a fabulous reader and can tell you what she read, its putting it to paper that hard. We are working on the typing in hopes that re-arranging things will be easier.

Teachmichigan
Member

07-22-2001

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Teachmichigan a private message Print Post    
Has her teacher used the four-square organization method much? It's just dividing paper into 4 squared, putting "topic" title at the top and then listing the two or three details in the box. A student adds a couple sentences of introduction and a couple sentences for a conclusion when writing it out in essay form. It's a visual that helps them plan and organize their writing before writing the essay, and has the advantage of being fast. Standardized tests have space for notes/rough drafts, etc. but with time limits, something quick and easy is best.

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
I need some parent advice and probably teacher advice if anyone has any.

Dakota has always struggled with reading. Like Caleb she went to preschool where they were working on reading before kindergarten and we always read with and to her everynight (still do,) and the only computer games she ever played were always the reading learning games. Unlike Caleb who picked up reading like breathing, she didn't have as easy a time.

Since Kindergarten she's always had an older student tutor her, plus work with an adult tutor, and extra help with her teacher. She goes to intercession, one week of school during vacation times where they work on problem areas, and we work with her at home reading to her, with her, and listening to her read.

Her problem isn't reading itself, if you hold up flash cards or point to words, or heck, she even gives Caleb his practice spelling tests, she has no problem but put words together in sentences or paragraphs and she has a great deal of trouble. We've tried pointing at the words as she reads and putting something under the sentences so that she's just seeing that but it doesn't help much. Her main problem though is comprehension. If she reads to herself or outloud she has no idea what she just read. We question her and discuss it and it just doesn't help much. This is the big problem with her reading grade, most their work and tests are based on comprehension or writing summaries and she's just not getting that part.

Yesterday she came home with her report card and Darren and I sent her out to play so we could look at it. Poor kids got a D in reading and Languange arts, a C in spelling, an A in math and B's in social studies and science. In both reading and LA (which also includes the writing stuff) ever sub-section is marked with an "N" for needs improvement and the boxes are checked in each subject for not being at grade level. Then in the comments section her teacher writes that Dakota is a great and delightful kid, no problems in class, and she really does try her hardest and to continue working at home with her. We know how hard she tries as well since we're sitting right there with her as she struggles through homework and we try to help her. We didn't tell Dakota her grades, told her she did well, which to us is the truth, she worked hard for those D's. And I have this little phobia that if you label how well or poorly a kid is doing in difficult subjects it kinda sticks that's how they should always do if that makes sense.

I don't know what else to do with her. We looked into sylvan and a program our junior college offers and both are pretty expensive for us. She's still getting tutoring at school and will be doing intercession over winter break and we work with her at home but I'm begining to get frustrated for her. No matter how hard we work at home with her or she works or they work at school it doesn't seem to be improving any.

I'm going to set up a meeting with her teacher next week after the holiday and see what help she can give me or ideas for help. We've also considered hiring the neighbor teen for a couple hours of tutoring a week but I'm not sure even more tutoring is what she needs, but maybe a different kind of learning technique instead.

Has anyone else here (or teachers who have seen this) gone through this type of problem and have any suggestions? At this point we're open to pretty much anything.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
First off, you sound like you are doing all that you should be and you are very upset by this. I would try to relax a bit. The teacher should be able to give you tips and hopefully be able to relax you a bit. I am not sure sylvan and the like would help her any more than what you are already doing. If you stress her out too much about it, she may react with an "I can't do this" attitude and give up too easily.

I hope the teacher calms you somewhat. Ryan too, is in the needs improvement area of reading. He too, is great at math and excellent at spelling (only when the words are memorized for a test.) However when he goes to write an original sentence, he is not good at spelling at all.

Luckily our school does not use ABCD and F. They use B (beginning the skill), D (developing the skill) and S (strength in the skill)...

My parents, siblings, etc are all teachers or principals and my aunt is a reading specialist. Basically they say, let the teacher be the lead and try to not stress...

Good luck!

PS Sorry I don't have any solid answer for you!

Kitt
Member

09-06-2000

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kitt a private message Print Post    
War have you thought about either vision problems or some type of dyslexia? If she can read words and comprehend them singly, but not when they are in a sentence or text, it might be that she's getting that swimming effect that they describe with dyslexia (I don't have it so don't know first hand, but have had it described to me like that). And that might be why she doesn't understand what she's read, it takes so much concentration to read each word that she can't concentrate on the meaning. It might be worth mentioning it to the teacher or someone with experience.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
I was thinking the same thing Kitt.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
War, what kind of evaluations has she had done to target her specific problem? For example, does she have comprehension if she is read to, but not when she reads herself?

Once her specific issue is identified, a specialist should be able to give you materials (or at least suggest materials) that you can use to help that issue.

I think you are right to be concerned, and to be so proactive. You are exactly right that if it goes on too long it can become prophetic, in both the minds of the teachers and the mind of your daughter! You are definitely at the right point to have her professionally evaluated without delay!

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 3:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
No real stressing on our part Julie, other than we see how hard she struggles and it just doesn't seem to get any better. I've always said my biggest problem with this is that I never had problems reading (I don't remember learning how to read, I went into kindergarten doing it and never looked back.) And that makes it difficult for me to help her because I don't understand what it's like for her. I do worry though because I know eventually her reading skills can effect everything else. Right now social studies and science are done in a classroom setting with a lot of help and discussion but sooner or later they'll be doing more reading on their own.

Kitt, last year her teacher sat me down and very apologetically (seriously she acted like I was going to come across the table and beat on her for suggesting it) told me that they were considering testing her for a learning disability. Their biggest concern oddly enough wasn't the trouble reading, but that while she struggled in reading she excelled in math and that is often and indication (weak in one area, very strong in another) of a learning disability. She seemed rather surprised at how I recieved that with the hey if that helps, do it, attitude. However, they wanted to wait to see if there were improvements and eventually decided against the testing. This year I discussed it with her teacher and she seemed surprised I mentioned it. Told me she saw no indication that Kota should be tested for it. When I have my meeting with her, I will be bringing that up again. My oldest niece has had the same reading problems and they haven't tested her either yet.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 3:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    
War, I'd insist that the school assess Dakota for a learning disability. Talk to the school counselor or principal rather than the teacher.

In the mean time, there are some exercises you can do with her to try to help her comprehension, like have her try to tell you in her own words what you read to her and then predict what she thinks will happen next.

Here's a good site with some practical information and tips.

Reading Rockets

Let me know if you want any other information. This is the sort of stuff I teach (in fact, we're covering students with exceptionalities in my next Ed Psych class).

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 3:50 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
Too funny that you said about how you worry that the reading skills can affect everything else. Just this morning I was telling Ryan how I am so tired of fighting him every single day to read. We were talking about how important reading is and he basically asked what reading had to do with other subjects like math... It is a little hard to explain that to an 8 year old. At least my "I hate to read" eight year old!

You are quite right that reading is so important and such an integral part of everyday life...

Oh, yes, the best part about having a 2 grade difference between reading and math is they can get labeled!! And that is a great thing because they get tons of extra help. (Ryan got an hour a day last year and made so much progress that this year he only gets 20 mins a day this year. Though I see him slipping a bit so they may boost it up somewhat at his next IEP.)

Definitely get her assessed and hopefully she will qualify for an IEP or at least a 504.

We already you you are a wonderful mom and I know you will do what you need to get Dakota a much help as she needs. Hopefully the teachers and school district will be as good and determined as you. I know we moved where we did cuz of the school district and we have been so happy we did. And we came from a school where my dad was the principal! So that says a lot!!!

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 3:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Julie, will Ryan read comic books or game manuals/strategy guides? Caleb doesn't like to read but he will read for fun if it's something like that.

They're tested three times during each school year in reading, writing, spelling and math. Each subject is broken down into the different sections (reading is broken into fluency, accuracy, comprehension, etc) so that the teachers and us can see what areas she's strongest in and where she needs help.

In reading and writing she has problems in pretty much almost every area. If someone is reading to her there's no comprehension problems. When she reads to herself or outloud we've been doing the "what happens next, what happened, what do you think that means" for several years.

When I saw that report card my first thought was "how much harder does this poor kid have to work?" There has been no improvement during the first trimester and now both Darren and I are to the point that we're thinking it's time for us to back off and get tough with the school. If there's a problem like a learning disability, she needs to be tested and needs help from someone who is trained to help and someone to show us more effective ways to help at home. And if its not then we (us and her teachers) need to figure out why she's still struggling.

Someone mentioned it earlier...she has no vision or hearing problems (she was screened both at school and her physical a few months ago) but does have a speech impediment that she sees the school districts speech therapist for a few times a month.

Prisoner, thank you for that site! There is a lot of interesting information there, not just covering learning disabilities but also learning difficulties and tips for helping. I'll be reading that for awhile!

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 3:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I would definitely insist on having her tested for learning disabilities. She could have dyslexia. I am also surprised that a teacher would give a young child a D, especially when they have worked so hard - a bit harsh.

I agree with talking to the principal but I would talk to her pediatrician as well and ask about having her tested, outside of the board of ed if that is possible. an independent assessment can't hurt.

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 4:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Oh, that's what I was going to say too. Letter grades (A-F) start in fourth grade so this is her first year of that. Everything is graded including every scrap of homework they do. It's so discouraging for her, and frustrating for us, when we see her work so hard and then come home with a low grade, which is why we really stress with her the grades don't matter as long as she's trying her hardest. May sound silly but we've literally done happy dances with her over D's when we know how much effort she put into getting that grade. We can shield her from the report card grades but can't do that with homework and tests and that just sucks.

What's the best way to approach the principal? I haven't talked to her about this, but have talked to not only her regular teacher but also the other fourth grade teachers who have her in their classes for different subjects. Is it best to ask for a meeting with both principal and teacher? Go in hard-assed and demand testing or armed with report card and homework to back me up? I've had several conversations with her but nothing like this. Problems with another student, Caleb's vision probs and missing so much school, stuff like that. I don't want to give the impression I'm unhappy with the teacher. Dakota's always had great teachers, this one especially so. She always knows when to encourage, when to challenge, and when to back off, but I do wonder if maybe she faces the same problem Darren and I do in that maybe these specific problems are beyond her training.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 5:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
"Go in hard-assed and demand testing or armed with report card and homework to back me up?"

No-no-no! A principal is (hopefully) a caring human being that does not need to be motivated by hard-ass tactics. A principal generally wants all the students to succeed. Especially a student with caring and understanding parents.

Not every student has the ability to have "good" report cards and that is no reason to go to a principal (or a teacher for that matter) all riled up.

You sound like you are pretty happy with the teacher. Do you email the teacher at all? I would email the teacher and cc the principal. Tell them your concerns. Tell them you are interested in getting testing as well as additional help for Dakota.

They should be more than happy to comply as there does seem that there is a definite need for this. Ask them if she can qualify for an IEP or at least a 504.

If they give you any kind of a hard time, feel free to email me (or just ask here) and I can have my parents tell me what they'd recommend.

Oh, as far as Ryan reading comic books, or anything fun related--nope. He is not interested at all. In fact, now that we have many "baby" type books around for Abby, he begs us to let him read those books instead if his books. We let him on occasion.

He too is in speech therapy and one of his big issues is that he spells how he talks. (Like he cannot do "th" very well, so he will spell "wis" instead of "with" and things like that.)

I am so glad our grade school uses that B-D-S system throughout 5th grade. Not sure what they use once they hit 6th grade in middle school...

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 6:53 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
Here is some basic information for you, War. The link is below. Personally, I don't think the Principal needs to be either involved, nor informed. The teacher sounds very reasonable, so I wouldn't rock the boat. If you need to go above the teacher's head (which I highly doubt you will), then involve the Principal. Just find out what the California laws are and go from there. You'll find some basic info in this brief article:

What are Your Rights, as a Parent, in the Special Education Process?
The complete information regarding your rights/procedural safeguards is lengthy and detailed. The following information represents highlights of your rights. CARS+ urges each parent to request and read the complete copy of your rights provided by your local school district and/or Special Education Local Plan Area (SELPA). Public Law 105-17, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) Amendments of 1997, clearly strengthens the rights of children with disabilities and their parents. It builds on the achievements gained under Public Law 94-142, the Education for the Handicapped Act, and Public Law 101-476, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). A fundamental provision of these special education laws is the right of parents to participate in the educational decision-making process.

A Free Appropriate Public Education for Your Child. Free means at no cost to you as parents. Appropriate means meeting the unique educational needs of your child.

Request an evaluation if you think your child needs special education or related services.

Be notified whenever the school wants to evaluate your child or change your child's educational placement, or refuses your request for an evaluation or a change in placement.

Informed Consent. Informed consent means you understand and agree in writing to the evaluation and educational program decisions for your child. Your consent is voluntary and may be withdrawn at any time.

Obtain an independent evaluation if you disagree with the school's evaluation.


http://www.kidsource.com/schwab/rights.special.ed.html

Sewmommy
Member

07-06-2004

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 10:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sewmommy a private message Print Post    
Wargod, you have received some excellent advice. I would suggest initially just speaking to the teacher, I believe you said you were going to set up an appointment for next week. What about the school or district counselor? I know when we went through the whole process with Maddy it was hard, but in the end it was so worth it. When the daily 2 hour battle over one page of homework was over. It will work out ok.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 10:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    
My understanding was War already spoke to the teacher who said Dakota didn't need to be tested. If that isn't the case, then yes, talk to the teacher first. However, don't go in with the idea that you are asking if she thinks Dakota needs to be tested -- go in with opinion that she needs to be tested and ask the teacher what you need to do to set that up.

Fourth grade is too long to allow a reading disability to go untested. Clearly she is a good student based on other grades, so the problem should be with reading comprehension. *SO* much information is taken in through reading that she really needs to have this dealt with now.

(I don't think dyslexia is an issue, since you say she can read words. She just can't comprehend meaning, which is a different problem.)

Meme9
Member

07-30-2001

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Meme9 a private message Print Post    
War, something you may want to try. First, pick a page out of any book, you read and write down some questions that can be answered from this text. Then, tell Kota what your doing and that you wanted to see if she can find the answers to the questions...by telling her what your doing she will understand the object of the practice. You can even show her the questions before you start. This way she can practice picking out information.

If this helps, it may be as simple as being bored...mind wandering. I had trouble with that as a kid. No testing back then, I kinda figured it out on my own.

Bearware
Member

07-12-2002

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 5:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Bearware a private message Print Post    
War, you have the right to request an evaluation for your child. That's not an issue at all. You can talk to the principal if you want, or just ask to talk to the school counsellor. They would both have what you need to get that ball rolling.

In Ky, you CAN'T have a learning disability unless there is a dramatic difference in performance between reading and math. We find that usually the LD students are quite bright, and that's something of a fight to make sure every parent and kid realizes that a reading disability means you ARE smart!

Depending on the outcome of the testing, there are lots of tricks of the trade that can be taught. If word decoding is an issue, you go one direction. If comprehension is the issue, but sight words are ok, then another direction. There are even vision people out there that recommend using a colored piece of clear plastic to read through - somehow, (and it works), this helps the student actually see the words differently. How it works, I have no idea. Sometimes boxing out all the distracting words work and helping the student to focus on the words at hand is helpful. Sometimes, using a ruler to help stay on the right line is the issue. It could be something as simple as an eye-tracking, muscular issue, or as complex as well, other stuff!

Justavice
Member

11-22-2005

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 7:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Justavice a private message Print Post    
Wargod, you didn't mention the nature of your daughter's speech impediment, but is it possible that she may be a little too focused on words and/or sounds that may trip her up, whether reading aloud or silently, so that comprehension becomes secondary to mastering the correct sounds? And if so, I truly don't envy her situation, kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Say the word/sound perfectly, which distracts from the context; or pay attention to context, but say the word/sound not so perfectly.

Rissa
Member

03-20-2006

Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 8:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Rissa a private message Print Post    
My youngest (now 11) has had special attention with her reading/writing since kindergarten. She spoke with a little impediment as well (my dad used to love it, said she sounds like a Texan). For years they have been testing her for a learning disability, every year, different tests. Then last year during a routine annual physical with a new family doc the doc says "you already know she's tongue-tied" Ah, NOOOOO!! Didn't know. So all these years the problem has been (simplified) that they learn to write phonetically and she is writing the words the way she says them. A little numbing gel, a small snip to the bottom of her tongue and the *accent* is gone and the writing/reading improved almost immediately (few weeks of reinforcing new habits). Wargod, I know this probably doesn't relate directly to your daughter's issue but wanted to provide some solidarity from another mom. The solution will come, I would suggest that as long as you trust in the teachers and the system you are in then your main task is to maintain your dd's love of school and learning. It's hard to do when they get singled out for being different.

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 1:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Thanks guys! It's been a busy day here and we never made it to see her teacher or anyone to set up an appt. Darren took her to school running late and then we got a call from the school nurse a couple hours later to pick her up cuz she wasn't feeling well. Darren picked her up, she laid down and went right to sleep and slept until 7pm tonight. She's got the cold I just got over.

Kota's third grade teacher, or rather the group of third grade teachers, were the ones who considered the testing for learning disabilities last year. They decided not to do it though. Her fourth grade teacher this year didn't think it was neccessary at the begining of the year but since then she has done nothing but struggle and hasn't had any progress so I think it's time to revisit the issue. Somethings got to change.

Up until she was six, Kota sounded like every other kid her age. And then all of her peers started growing out of that and she didn't. R's are a problem, blended sound/letter combos (no problems with a word like "this" of a word like "thatch" or "which" can be difficult for her to pronounce.) I did think that part of the reading problem was focusing so much on how to pronounce words that she tripped herself up, but almost a year of speech therapy hasn't really helped with that. Oh Rissa, the spelling, Dakota does the same thing, spells everything the way she says them. We can work around that with memorization but for words she doesn't write often that doesn't help a bit.

Rissa
Member

03-20-2006

Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 7:20 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Rissa a private message Print Post    
Wargod, just for giggles try having her attempt to touch her nose with her tongue a few times. Ask her to stretch her tongue until it *almost* hurts. Then ask her to say a few of those words she has difficulty with. If that helps and the words sound clearer then you might want to look into the tongue-tied issue. I know odds are it wouldn't be the same problem as we had but the way you describe her speech is very familiar and at least its something you can try at home.

Wargod
Moderator

07-16-2001

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wargod a private message Print Post    
Kota's teacher and I are trying to get together but it's proving kinda difficult. When I told her I wanted to set up a meeting (even if by phone to start with) she wasn't surprised at all and knew what I want to talk about. Unfortunately, we can't seem to find the time yet when both of us aren't running busy. They are doing the assessments this week of all the grades to re-adjust their math, reading, language arts, etc groups which leaves her testing kids all day. She offered to do a phone meeting today but the only time she had available was about three minutes before I leave the house to pick Caleb up from school.

I'm not too stressed about it yet, I'd rather have a meeting that isn't rushed or where one of us is distracted, and it might be better to wait til the assessments are done anyways so we have that information available to us while it's very recent.

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
War, try to get this scheduled asap. Having worked in a school system for years, the CSE (Committee on Special Education) meets early in the year to set up IEP's for the following year. If Kota qualifies for special services like speech therapy, this is the time they add it. If it is simply reading help, I'm not sure how that works. Just try to get the request for specialized testing in before the holiday break.

Not trying to concern you, rather informing you just in case you come up against that deadline.