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Nino
Member
09-20-2004
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 12:59 pm
Closing this thread would be the worst possible thing to do!!! To me, it would be like closing your mind!! Yes, it makes people uncomfortable to discuss the ongoing poison of racism, but to shut down the dialogue simply because people on both sides are hurt/upset by some of the comments/opinions of others is like throwing that proverbial baby out with the bathwater! I think most of us here are intelligent, caring, decent folks, and there are very few people here who would intentionally inflict pain of any kind on any of us. Of course, there are bound to be some posters here who don't wish to learn and grow, and there's not much we can do about those particular people. They are who they are. I've read a lot of misunderstandings and confusion in this thread over the past few days, but most of it truly seems genuine. I will never be able to personally feel the racism that Mocha and LadyT feel because I'm white. I'm married to a black man and we've been together for 25 years now, but I still can't feel Robert's pain. I can sympathize with him and I can be outraged with him, but I cannot personally feel what he feels. He is sickened by Michael Richards' racist comments! And, we both resoundingly label Richards a racist! I don't care how many knockdown dragout fights my husband and I have had over the past quarter of a century, I have never, not one time, called him a filthy racist name!! And, I've been pretty darn mad at him some of those times, too! Also, he has never called me a filthy racist name during an argument either! There are plenty of curse words one can hurl at each other! If you bring race into it, you have to be thinking about race! We've never watched Seinfeld, so we aren't feeling this as a Kramer fan. I've got to say that now I am sure glad we never took the show up! It would be too hard for me to enjoy his comedy after this incident. I'm praying our cyber friends will rejoin us soon. We will keep this thread alive and well until that hopefully happens!! Black history will never be closed down on this board if I can help it! Thanks Mak for your contribution today. There is so much for all of us to yet learn!! And, sometimes a little time off can be a good thing. Let's never stop the dialogue, y'all!! It's our only real possible way to come together as human beings! Every single person's opinion is important! There's more than one way to be right or wrong. I know I speak for almost everyone here when I say Richards and racism is wrong! I'm most definitely not targeting any individual here, so try not to take my comments personally, okay y'all? I love our little community here and I can only hope that everyone will work toward healing any wounds that were inflicted on anyone over the past week. Friends can patch up just about anything, if the friendship is strong enough, but I can also understand that occasionally the damage can be too severe to repair. I hope and pray this is not one of those unfortunate times. Okay, I'm shutting up now, but I'm glad I decided to go ahead and post my thoughts here! I debated with myself about it and decided to jump on in! These are only my opinions and I'm not expecting anyone to agree or disagree with me. I'm just articulating my personal feelings. Thanks for listening!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:01 pm
I think everyone deserves understanding. Feelings have been hurt all over the place around here. Some because they felt they weren't listened to or understood, or their pains were minimized. Others are hurt because they feel their opinions have been distorted into something much uglier than was ever intended. Many are now backed off from posting, for fear they will cause more distress, or be beat over the head for posting their thoughts, or perhaps they are tired of being misunderstood. What I am interested in hearing, is what will it take to heal this community. Can it be healed? Can people feel safe to post? Can people expect to be heard and understood? Should we just shut down all potentially controversial threads, so no one can get their feelings hurt so badly? No one here intended ill, of that I am quite sure. That doesn't seem to be well understood. So, again, I ask. What will it take to heal?
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:07 pm
Time, I guess. But I bet people will be a lot less likely to talk about race in any depth anymore.
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Nino
Member
09-20-2004
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:22 pm
Well said, Legal!
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Wapland
Member
08-01-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 2:39 pm
To my friends at TVCH, Thank you each and everyone. I learn so much from your posts, particularly as you struggle to deal with difficult subject matters. You bring me wisdom, passion, compassion, sensibility, humour, some pain, and sometimes sadness at the drop of a hat, in varying degrees throughout my time here. Most importantly, for me, it has come through typed words, gifs and emoticons. Quite a remarkable relationship when you look at it. Hell, I even changed the colour of my electrical sockets because of your caring wisdom and strong opinions. Do I need everything you dish out.......no. Do I want everything you dish out.......no. Do my feelings get hurt...........yes. Has it kept me away........yes. Do I miss people when I have been gone............yes. Mocha, Ladytex you have taught this lurker much in your black history thread. Please consider its importance to you and me before you leave. I do believe that leaders know things will get tough, but also believe they can overcome tough. I know you can too, because it is just too important not to. Karuuna, healing for many has started, I think. I am hopeful that given time, that will continue. The journey, the struggle, to get here, though very painful, is just too important. Fondly with hope, Wappy
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 3:38 pm
quote:Time, I guess. But I bet people will be a lot less likely to talk about race in any depth anymore.
I will definately continue to talk about race in depth. I have to because I live it every day. I just want to say that I value everyone's posts here today. What will it take to heal? No idea. But the conversation certainly shouldn't end even if I may not feel like continuing it. This thread really has been for everyone. And like Ladyt said, I have also learned alot from it and what I've learned I felt the need to share. And it certainly wasn't the intent for others to not feel they should post articles or comments or whatever. It's for everyone. legal, Strange Fruit is a very powerful song thx for posting it.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 4:02 pm
I'm happy to see you posting again Mocha. I appreciate your comments. 
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Wapland
Member
08-01-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:53 pm
Ladytex...I just watched the Sinbad interview. Thanks for the link to it. It is excellent and how interesting that in such a concise way, he addresses all the issues discussed here. He really puts an understanding to the whole apology, forgiveness issue which was clear and helped me on a variety of ways. A good watch for anyone who has not seen it. Fondly, Wappy
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:16 pm
I think it will take time, but if we spend that time well and talk more, not less, it may take less time, or it may take more time, but more will be learned. Note that the pastor of Legal's famous quote didn't even mention the gypsies, the people Hitler considered defective, mentally challenged, the gays, lesbians, ... they were also targets of his rage, to be eliminated. Lady, Mocha and others, you have given so much for so long in this thread, but today, you gave us - me, I'll speak for me, so much of yourself, and I thank you and HELL YES, we should keep talking. When I saw the lynching pictures the other day, my breathe left me for a bit and I know I posted about the deep shame that my parents hometown was the location of a horrible multiple lynching in 1930. 1930! Middle Indiana. Not the south. Don't ever think that it is just "them" who commit these crimes against humanity or shamefully stand by while the crimes are committed or even mug for the camera or laugh nervously (as film shows in the case of this lynching and as film shows in that audience, where some stayed, some kept laughing. Taking a stand is important, even when you don't "mind so much" (thinking back to the long discussions about James Frey simply making up much of his supposedly true memoir. Many continued to support him monetarily by keeping or buying those books. I took mine back. Did I change anything? Probably not, but I simply could not support fraud. Early on when AIDS was considered a "gay plague" and I had co-workers who were afflicted, there were many jokes at their expense and I had no choice but to speak up for them. I saw younger employees who had giggled and joked begin to think, oh, I know this person or that person, and some made the beginning of understanding. If you get to know individuals in any group, it is much more difficult to marginalize that group. You have to start somewhere.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:21 pm
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html Should have guessed YouTube would have it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQTWVgKZtlg
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Legalboxer
Member
11-17-2003
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:34 pm
thanks for the links sea
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Abby7
Member
07-17-2002
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:55 pm
this is the first time i was able to check TVCH since late yesterday. THANK YOU so much LadyTex and Mocha for taking the time to share your thoughts here again.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 10:56 pm
If I could give Legalboxer a standing ovation, I would. Her post is the most powerful post I have ever read at TVCH in all the time I have belonged here. I also wholeheartedly agree with Ginger1218's post. I am happy to see LT & Mocha posting here again. IMHO They not only contribute to this thread but to they clubhouse as a whole. Anytime someone of value leaves, the place becomes just a little less... and if someone has not caused intentional pain or deliberate dissension, then they are a valuable participant IMHO. From the outpouring of affection and the extraordinary efforts to heal rifts of misunderstanding here, the respect that is being shown here is wonderful and must be a great comfort. At least I hope so. Because although I've spent my life striving to be liked, now in my fifties, I realize that RESPECT is paramount. And once again, may I say that the respect being accorded here is clearly evident. Its not whether one agrees with someone else, in key discussions, its whether they respect the other person enough to say, "I'm sorry if I caused you any pain!" I've always been a firm believer in this: It's not what you say, its how you say it. If this discussion has give some (probably many) pause, that's not a bad thing. Sometimes self-editing is important. (Professionally, I succeed at this as a journalist, but personally, as a chatterbox, I sometimes fail miserably.) But I digress... Make your point, but make it kindly. And being human, if one is not always kind, there should always be the opportunity to apologize sincerely. The operative word being - sincerely. But it all boils down to genuine respect. Certain behaviours that come from deep disrespect, (like with Richards heinous rant, or Mel Gibson's for that matter) well, they need to keep apologizing til they convince us its done out of respect, not because they are trying to save face or salvage careers. But because it all boils down to genuine respect and remorse - not merely being seen doing the right thing for public relations reasons. Its important to be seen doing the right things, but it must come from a place within that is true, not self-serving. Neither of those men has evidently convinced too many of us, of their sincere remorse, as of yet. And when people dismiss Gibson and make excuses for him, they hurt a segment of us, who feel the pain inflicted by Richards as well. Both of these men have issues. But what needs to be remembered, is that they represent many, many people who silently agree with their hateful positions. Some not so silently. And our voices must be heard, louder and longer than theirs, espousing tolerance, and respect for all races, religions, creeds, and cultures, etc: Live and Let Live.
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Chiliwilli
Member
09-04-2006
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:08 am
You cannot expect tolerance, acceptance, respect or even forgiveness if you are not willing to give them. Some people will never be able to forgive Richards or Gibson or others for the comments they have made or the deeds they have done. These people do not understand that the forgiveness is just as much for themselves as it is for the wrongdoers. Without the giving of forgiveness these things can fester in your heart and mind making you bitter and hateful toward others. Forgiveness can clean this from your mind and soul. Keep in mind that forgiveness is not forgetting nor is it in any way approval for what was done or said. I will never forget what these men have said but I can forgive them for my own sake.

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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:23 am
However, I believe that forgiveness comes in the fullness of time and that may be different for each of us. Sometimes I prefer to refer to a process of "letting it go" without letting someone off the hook. Pick your battles and fight hard, let go what truly won't change and keep your own house clean before being too critical of others.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:33 am
Amen Sea! Forgiveness is a very personal thing. And comes when it comes, as you say, in the fullness of time. And sometimes, it never comes. Those who can forgive attocities are almost superhuman to me. But for me to begin to forgive someone I have to believe they are sincerely remorseful for their actions. I do agree that not letting go can become a festering bitterness, though. But I do not believe for one instance that 'not forgiving' a perpetrator is on the same level as the perpetrators evildoings. That smacks of 'blame the victim' to me. I'm not saying that anyone has said that, but that's what just came to mind.
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Chiliwilli
Member
09-04-2006
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:55 am
I guess I said it wrong. What I meant was forgive but don't forget the action. Forgive it for your own healing but don't just let it go. I never said or meant that not forgiving blames the victim or is even close to the same level as the perpetrator's actions.
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Abby7
Member
07-17-2002
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 6:51 am
this topic was the last thing on my mind last night; and the first thing on my mind this morning. i would just like to apologize for the way i expressed my views here. i was inconsiderate, rude, and harsh at times. i'm truly sorry to those i may have hurt. i will be more considerate in all my future posts.

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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:21 am
"Holding on to resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other person will die." ~Carolyn Myss Harboring a grudge completely blocks our ability to have peace of mind. Forgiveness is not something we do for the sake of another person. Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. ~Greg Barrette I understand that it takes time for some to forgive. Personally, if I cannot forgive someone right away, I work it on every day until I can. It is my understanding that people do hurtful things all the time out of their own hurt or lack of understanding. That does not mean we should not hold them to account; but I believe we should hold them to account with compassion and respect; not resentment and anger and the need for revenge. Like Julie stated above, my fear is that while this conversation has in some ways lead to more understanding; it has also lead to more fear. Instead of encouraging open dialog, it more likely has had the effect of teaching people to not speak their thoughts out of fear of hurting others, or fear of being labeled in ugly ways. In the long run, that will not help end racism. It will make good caring people stay away from the conversation about racism. I don't want to make light of the genuine hurt and frustration people felt. But I also don't want to lose sight of the lasting effects on others either. Unless there is true healing at some point, this will not have been a helpful conversation for this community. And that means there must be forgiveness and understanding in all directions.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:26 am
On radio, comic apologizes for tirade NEW YORK - Comedian Michael Richards said Sunday he did not consider himself a racist, and said he was "shattered" by the comments he made to two young black men during a tirade at a Los Angeles comedy club. Richards appeared on the Rev. Jesse Jackson's nationally syndicated radio program, "Keep Hope Alive," as a part of a series of apologies for the incident. He said he knew his comments hurt the black community, and hoped to meet with the two men. He told Jackson that he had not used the language before. "That's why I'm shattered by it. The way this came through me was like a freight train. After it was over, when I went to look for them, they had gone. And I've tried to meet them, to talk to them, to get some healing," he said. Richards, who played Jerry Seinfeld's wacky neighbor Kramer on the TV sitcom "Seinfeld," was performing at West Hollywood's Laugh Factory last week when he lashed out at hecklers with a string of racial obscenities and profane language. A cell phone videocamera captured the outburst, and the incident later appeared on TMZ.com. Richards told Jackson the tirade was fueled by anger, not bigotry. "I was in a place of humiliation," he said. Richards' publicist, Howard Rubenstein, said Saturday that Richards has begun psychiatric counseling in Los Angeles to learn how to manage his anger and understand why he made the racist remarks. "He acknowledged that his statements were harmful and opened a terrible racial wound in our nation," Rubenstein said. "He pledges never ever to say anything like that again. He's quite remorseful." Jackson, who has called Richards' words "hateful," "sick," and "deep-seated," said the comedian's inclusion on the show was a chance for a broader discussion about "cultural isolation" in the entertainment industry. "We might turn this minus into a plus," Jackson said. link
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:27 am
I do not believe him when he says he's never used that language before.
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Mamie316
Member
07-08-2003
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:30 am
I have to agree, Mocha. I don't think that language appeared that night out of nowhere.
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Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:37 am
I do like what Jackson said about turning this minus into a plus. I have to agree also. Like some of us have said before, in anger/frustration those words would never come to our mind, lots of other cuss words, yes, but racist ones, never!
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Justavice
Member
11-22-2005
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 10:40 am
And the part about him being "shattered"-- I think he is "shattered" someone caught him on tape, not necessarily "shattered" by what he said.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 11:31 am
ITA what Justavice said!
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