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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:38 pm
quote:Michael: Okay, I don’t know how it is in Iraq, but in the United States of America, where I’m from, Korean people don’t like black people. Did you know that?
How is saying that Korean people don't like black people make Michael racist? I don't think I'm seeing the connection? I say that because there is actually more to this statement.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:39 pm
And actually I really don't feel like explaining it either.
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Hermione69
Member
07-24-2002
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:52 pm
I have always believed that feeding into negative stereotypes about ethnic groups has racist undertones. I can't claim to understand Michael's comment from his perspective, but I merely used it to illustrate that sometimes people say things in anger we don't generally mean or even believe.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 5:58 pm
Isn't any generalization of a particular race or ethnic group considered racist? Michael is generalizing that Koreans don't like Black people.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 6:02 pm
No it isn't.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 6:11 pm
Why not? Even going by the definition that you provided above. and/or a generalization of a specific group of people (stereotype); He is also applying that generalization about Koreans to one specific Korean.
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:23 pm
Sharpton: Comedian's apology not enough POSTED: 7:34 p.m. EST, November 22, 2006 NEW YORK (CNN) -- The Rev. Al Sharpton said Wednesday he refused to accept an apology from actor Michael Richards, who spouted a racist rant at a comedy club last week. But Sharpton said he did agree to meet with Richards to try to start a process to address racism in America. "I [told Richards] you need to sit down and deal with this," Sharpton told CNN. "This is not about accepting an apology, this is about starting a process to really deal with the continual problem of racism in this country." Sharpton said he got the call from Richards earlier Wednesday. "I think that what he did was so injurious that he has to sit down with a group and decide how he tries to ... deal with healing the obvious problem he's got in his own mind and his own heart, because it couldn't come out of you if it wasn't in you," Sharpton said. The incident took place Friday night at the Laugh Factory in Los Angeles, California. In a video clip posted on the celebrity gossip Web site TMZ.com, obtained from an audience member, Richards unleashed a nearly three-minute tirade punctuated by racial slurs at a group of African-American hecklers. In it, he made a reference to lynching and added shortly before walking offstage, "That's what happens when you interrupt a white man." TMZ.com is a subsidiary of Time Warner, as is CNN. Richards apologized Monday on CBS's "Late Show" with David Letterman, saying he is not a racist. "I was at a comedy club trying to do my act and I got heckled, and I took it badly and went into a rage," said Richards, who appeared on the show via satellite. "For me to be in a comedy club and flip out and say this crap, you know, I'm deeply, deeply sorry." Sharpton said Letterman's show was not the appropriate venue for such an apology. Richards played comedian Jerry Seinfeld's oddball neighbor Kramer on the NBC comedy "Seinfeld," which ran from 1990 to 1998. Sharpton said he also chastised Richards, telling him, "Here you are, somebody we had in our living room, you were Kramer. We were used to you and to come and see you say this is frightening to many Americans." The use of the "n-word" by both blacks and whites needs to be stopped, Sharpton said. Richards has hired New York public relations expert Howard Rubenstein to help deal with the fallout from the incident. In an interview with CNN, Rubenstein said one of first pieces of advice he gave to Richards was to call Sharpton. "I knew that would be a good place to start," said Rubenstein, who is a longtime friend of Sharpton. Rubenstein said Richards also called and spoke with civil rights leader the Rev. Jesse Jackson, and Jackson accepted his apology. "He will be doing a good deal of apologies over the next few months," Rubenstein said. link this may be one of the first times I've ever agreed with the Rev. Sharpton about anything
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Chiliwilli
Member
09-04-2006
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:55 am
The use of the "n-word" by both blacks and whites needs to be stopped, Sharpton said. I have to agree with this statement. If rules aren't the same for everyone then why should anyone go by the rules? As stated by someone previously, if it had been a black comedian saying those same words we probably would never have known it happened.
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 8:50 am
actually, a black comedian would NOT have threatened another black person with lynching.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:27 am
Isn't Mr. Sharpton a Christian minister? If so, he is mandated by his beliefs to forgive when someones asks for forgiveness.
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Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:50 am
I don't believe any person is "mandated" to believe anything.
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:55 am
I don't think he's 'mandated' either. And I doubt Michael Richards went to him as a parishioner to a minister. He went to him as a leader in the Black Community, and as that leader, Rev. Sharpton told him that apology was not sufficient, that there were other things he needed to do to address the wrong.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:44 am
Well, the New Testament does tell us to forgive, forgive, forgive and not to judge. I'm not sure where it dictates penance for forgiveness, other than real remorse and a turning from those old ways. I think Sharpton is being hypocritical. Yes, Michael Richards had it "in him" to think racial thoughts or be familiar with racial epithets. That doesn't make him racist. He commited a racist act, perhaps. But we've all said things we regret when we're angry. Often we say them when someone has hurt us, and then immediately comes to mind something that will hurt them back and depending on our self control, out it comes. I know very few people who don't do this. And we apologize. The apology only sticks if we don't keep repeating the behavior. Hecklers made fun of Richards for his comedy. One would hope that he had learned how to handle hecklers, but apparently not. They said something hurtful about his craft, about something very important to who he is in his mind. He said something extremely hurtful back. I don't think it was intended as racist as much as it was intended to hurt them back and try to win. A fool's battle. Whether he is a racist or not does not depend on this one incident. It depends on his lifetime of treating others. And that I know nothing about, but I certainly haven't heard a plethora of reports about previously racist behavior. Methinks the Sharptons are taking this way too personally. JMO.
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Ladytex
Member
09-27-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:56 am
I don't think he was taking this too personally at all. At no time did he make this about him. He said that Richards needed to sit down with a group of people and decide how to deal with it. Richards himself said he had some work to do, and Rev. Sharpton gave him some direction, as a minister does. He was quoted as saying that this was not about accepting the apology, but starting a dialogue to address the problem. I don't think he was being hypocritical. ETA: Actually, I'm done discussing this issue here. Obviously there are going to be people who make light of it, that think that everything is okay just because he said "oh, sorry". It's just not worth it to me to beat my head against the wall trying to get people to understand how hurtful lynching is, and how we can't blow it off. Lynching is not just something that happened long ago. They did it in Vidor, TX not even 10 yrs ago. They mimicked doing it on a college campus just recently. Whatever ... I'm done.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:08 pm
Try not to faint, Kar, but I agree with you. I am reminded of the movie 'Crash'. If you haven't seen it, it's an excellent examination of racial stereotypes. All the characters tend to represent a particular stereotype - the racist white cop, the cynical black street thug - and through their various interactions we come to see them as much more complex than the simple labels we initially assign them. The racist white cop, for instance, behaves heroically later in the movie in saving a black woman. The black street thug performs an act of great humanity at the end of the movie. The moral is that simple stereotypical labels can't define the complex emotions and actions that make up a human being, yet we are far too quick to apply them.
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Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:46 pm
Ladytex - I, for one, enjoy learning about the feelings behind the issues, and I hope you don't stop posting here, especially in a time where the opportunity for learning through dialogue is at the forefront. I've grown up in happy white Canada, and honestly don't know much about what is hurtful vs. what is acceptable, and WHY. I appreciate when you post, because it allows me (and hopefully others) the opportunity to see another's perspective. Sure it's hard to keep having to say things, but please don't think people participate in dialogue because they don't want to hear the other side. I think people participate in dialogue in order to find clarity in an issue. I don't think people come in here to convince people that lynching is OK (to use the example here), but to understand WHY people are truly hurt by some comments, and not others. I think that things a person feels as a black person are so internal, and a construct of THEIR reality. Unfortunately, as a white person, I don't think I can ever share that construct, unless it is communicated to me, and I can adopt it. Nobody learns if we all stop talking, and I hope you don't stop posting, because your insights are valuable, even if sometimes it doesn't seem like it. Did anyone watch that Oprah episode where they had the high school students "cross the line" if they'd ever done certain things, or had certain things done to them? This issue just makes me think of that episode (which actually brought me to tears). There were these two football guys (one black, one white) who were great friends. But the white guy was always joking around with the black guy about his race. Anyways, when the woman said "cross the line if someone from school has ever made fun of your race" and the black guy crossed the line. Anyways, the white guy was not at all racist, and thought his black friend KNEW he was joking, and didn't realize that he was hurting his friend a little bit every time he joked. And the black guy said that even though he KNEW the white guy was joking, he said he could never truly be friends with the white guy while those jokes were being made. What hit me was that many of us make little jokes, and we HONESTLY do not MEAN them, nor is there a "little bit of racism/sexism/whatever-ism" in us. We just think we're making innocent jokes. I think this is what is at play in a lot of the racism examples we see. People really truly don't think their actions could hurt someone, because they truly don't MEAN the jokes, or their actions. But we need the people BEING hurt to say, "Hey, that hurts" in order for it to stop. If nothing is said, how would we ever know?
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:19 pm
Sometimes, people use what they know to be hurtful deliberately. If you show them your weakness, your vulnerability, some people will take advantage, so its not always easy to take that road, because you could get blindsided anyways. And the more often it happens, the more one's innocence, trust, and faith in humanity is chipped away piece by piece.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:23 pm
I've grown up in happy white Canada Canada does have quite a large non-white population (for lack of a better term) but they happen to be mostly located in the larger cities. Toronto is very multicultural. I agree though that we have never had the racial tension or history that the U.S. experienced.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:39 pm
TORONTO DIVERSITY INFO FROM STATS CANADA: Diversity of race, religion and lifestyle help define and set Toronto apart from other world cities. Toronto is home to virtually all of the world's culture groups and is the city where more than 100 languages and dialects are spoken. Between 2001 and 2005, the Toronto CMA attracted an average of 107,000 international immigrants each year, The City of Toronto welcomed two thirds (69,000). As well, 10,738 foreign students chose to study in Toronto originating from countries including South Korea, Japan, China and India. (Source: The Monitor, Fall 2005 - Citizenship and Immigration Canada) Almost three-quarters of Torontonians aged 15 or older have direct ties to immigration. About one-half (52%) are themselves immigrants while another 22% are 2nd generation immigrants with at least one parent born outside of Canada. The remaining 26% of the Toronto population (aged 15 or older) is comprised of individuals who were born in Canada to two Canadian-born parents. (Source: Immigrants in Canada's Census Metropolitan Areas - Grant Schellenberg, Statistics Canada). Percent of recent immigrants to Toronto CMA from top five countries of birth, 2001 China 10.8 India 10.3 Philippines 6.9 Hong Kong 6.9 Sri Lanka 6.4 Top 15 languages by mother tongue* Toronto CMA, 2001 Total responses 4,647,960 Single mother tongue responses 4,556,475 English 2,684,195 Italian 195,960 Chinese, n.o.s.** 165,120 Cantonese 145,490 Portuguese 108,935 Punjabi 95,950 Spanish 83,245 Polish 79,875 Tagalog (Pilipino) 77,220 Tamil 72,715 French 57,485 Urdu 53,895 Greek 50,165 Russian 47,590 Arabic 46,570 Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
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Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:40 pm
Not going to hijack the thread but, Jimmer, did you know we've actually had a VERY racist Canada, but more toward First Nations, and a horrible history with Asians and Indians (from India). (Taking Canadian Social History this semester. I'm learning some pretty embarrassing stuff about my own country. *sigh*) I really do wish there was a racism thread here so we could talk without detracting from Black History.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:41 pm
I agree Eeyore!
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Merrysea
Member
08-13-2004
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 1:51 pm
From what I've read about this incident, Richards reacted before there was any "heckling" toward him. He made the first comment about the group that came in and only targeted specific minorities in that group. A group of people giving drink orders is going to require a bit of talking. The reaction, a man saying "you're not funny," doesn't, in my mind, warrant the barrage of anger that Richards spewed forth, whether you consider it racist or not (I do). Is there more to what came before his rant that I haven't heard about?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 3:02 pm
Oy, Adven. Only on Thanksgiving! I think Sharpton is hypocritical when he claims to a minister of Christianity but does not preach forgiveness over all. Even Christ, on the cross, was forgiving. That's a lot worse than attack words, eh? Aren't Christians supposed to follow Christ's example? Be kind to your enemies, give them your coat, love them, forgive them. I must have missed the scriptures on exacting appropriate penance. Please don't think I'm making light of lynching, or racism. Certainly an underlying climate of racism is what lead to Richards to think of those particular words as hurtful. He reached for racist dialogue to rage at someone who was black. But that's really the only element of racism I see here. What I do see is a person who has problem with rage and impulse control. To me, that's different from racism. And if Sharpton is suggesting someone sit and speak with Richards, then I hope it is an excellent professional who can help Richards overcome that kind of behavior.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 3:26 pm
Merrysea, as I understand it, the tape started well into the tirade, so we have no footage of what started it. In interviews, the hecklers did admit starting it by yelling at Michael that "my friend doesn't think you're funny". However, it is *their* story, and it's doubtful they would cast themselves in a very bad light. They neglected to mention in interview that they later responded to Richards with a few racial epithets of their own. That's what I mean by a "fool's battle". Couple of out of control dudes trying to win an expletive war.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 3:50 pm
...and by 'couple' I'm assuming you mean Richards and the audience member. I love your calling such an exchange of words a 'fools battle'...no winners.
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