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Archive through November 25, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Apr. 2007 ~ Jun. 2007: Black History (ARCHIVES January 2006 ~ June 2007): Archive through November 25, 2006 users admin

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Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
not hidden, but treated differently perhaps.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
That would be unfortunate Maris.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Maris,to address your point, I would not have thought differently if it was anyone else. I wasn't a big Seinfeld fan, and esp not much of a Kramer fan.

As I have done repeatedly in N&V, although it has been an unpopular stance, I have taken the apologies of public figures at face value. Many of them I have not known of before whatever incident lead to their apology. It is simply who I am, just as you are a person who tends to doubt the apologies of public figures.

Rosie
Member

11-12-2003

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Rosie a private message Print Post    
Folks really do need to watch how they use the word "butt after making a statement or statements.
_____________________________________________

Lance, I am sorry but you were being so serious and I read that sentence and had to smile.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Like Hermione, I had a bit of an epiphany (I'm calling it that instead of a thump on the head ) this afternoon.

I was listening to a talk radio show on a long drive, and two black women were talking about Michael Richards behavior. One of them said (paraphrased) that if you are not a racist, and a black person pisses you off, you don't call them the n-word. You call them jerk or a-hole or whatever. You don't threaten them with lynching, although you might well threaten to put something up their ass.

I thought about that for myself, and she is right. If a black person cut me off in traffic, almost causing me to wreck, a-hole would come to mind, n-gger would not.

And while the women were not sure what Richards could do to make it better, since it was so deplorable to them, they did hold out that it was possible for him to be contrite and make it better at some point. It is a bit difficult for me to understand what that means, but I hold out hope for at least the possibility of forgiveness.

For my lack of understanding, I apologize. I get it better now. I still call what he did a racist thing; and there is certainly a part of him that is indeed racist. I am still unsure how that plays out in his life, previously or going forward. I understand better now that his apology was not quite adequate - given in the clumsy way that either indicates he didn't mean it, or he's not very good at apologizing, or is just so deeply ashamed he doesn't know how to confess. I still think Michael Richards has serious psychological issues to be dealt with as well; but I also think he has some self-examination to do re his attitudes about blacks.

I occasionally do an ignorant thing, and this was one of them. I hope that doesn't make me a totally ignorant person, tho I'm sure some will still think so. I take it that forgiveness is not a popular notion on this board, however, I hope that some will find it in their hearts to forgive my lack of understanding. I am sincerely sorry.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:14 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
It is simply who I am, just as you are a person who tends to doubt the apologies of public figures.

has nothing to do with doubting apologies or doubting apologies of public figures. An apology that is extracted after someone has been caught doing something evil, to me is not worth much. And as I have said before, What he did goes to who he is as a person, his apolgy doesnt change what he is.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:20 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Um, when else would you publicly apologize, if not after publicly caught doing something wrong?

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
I tend to think in terms of understanding. I want to understand why someone would react in a racist way.

The offense wasn't directed at me, because I'm not black; so perhaps it isn't for me to forgive (I actually find it an offense against all of us; living around racism or being subjected to racist comments is offensive to me, but of course it still isn't directed AT me most of the time. What may be directed at me may be the reaction by the targets of racist statements and actions and laws, rules and customs that may splash over onto me because I look like a member of the same group as those who ARE racists or use racist slurs, talk, actions against people of any one group.

So even those who seem to be on the "winning" side of a power struggle that involves racism really are losing in some way or another.

Musing some more, I would wish that, when we have sincere discussions where people are grappling with issues that are variously sensitive, that we'd all look to understand what they mean, despite unfortunate semantics, because many of us have read each other's writing, celebrated each others sucesses and joys, mourned for each others losses and hurts, many of us for a long time. Some of us have met and know each other to be good human beings. So I'd wish for us to stay with the discussion and to help each other understand, even if just a little better. If anyone physically or mentally leaves, checks out, that possible exchange is lost. Not only do we lose the input of those who leave, but others who may want to understand better, often are effectively silenced because the assumption had been made that they cannot or don't want to understand and yet another label is placed upon them or their words or actions and we move apart rather than together.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
The issue was apologies of public figures, not public apologies :-)

I could care less whether someone is a public figure. UM

Rosie
Member

11-12-2003

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Rosie a private message Print Post    
Excellent post, SEA.

It is nice to see someone not trying to throw more fuel onto the fire.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Maris, I guess I don't really see the diff. Forgive me for not understanding, but who else would issue a public apology, other than a public figure? I still don't get it.

Abby7
Member

07-17-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Abby7 a private message Print Post    
i thought it was a given that richards is a racist. so, i was a bit taken back at some of the posts here (even more so that his lynching statement wasn't clear to some and there was discussion over giving some fault to the victims).

i can see why Mocha and LadyTex are so offended.

i know that the people who have commented here are just giving their own opinions (thoughts, understanding) on this matter. not one person intended to hurt anyone else....it just tends to happen sometimes when such discussions take place.

i'm sorry it ended up like this knowing this website is usually such a wonderful "internet home" to many of us.

hugs to everyone.

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
<<i thought it was a given that richards is a racist. so, i was a bit taken back at some of the posts here (even more so that his lynching statement wasn't clear to some...>>

It is not a "given" that Richards is a racist, it is some people's opinion that he is and some people's opinion that he may or may not be. That's one of the topics being discussed in this thread over the past couple of days.

I was one of the posters who admitted to not understanding the "fork up your a*s" comment made by Richards. Mocha or someone else explained that it was synonymous with lynching. I was not the only poster who didn't get that. Why would anyone be "taken back" by the fact that some people need clarification?

Abby7
Member

07-17-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 9:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Abby7 a private message Print Post    
huk, sorry about the "back" typo.

i wrote: " i thought it was a given that richards is a racist". i guess the key words i need to repeat now are "I THOUGHT". i realized, after reading some posts i was wrong with my thought.

regarding why I would be taken aback by why some people questioned the lynching comment richards made: because I thought it was obvious what he meant. again, i was wrong with that. i didn't realize that his statement maybe wasn't specific enough or whatever.

so, i hope i answered your questions. like i said, we are all just giving our opinions. i'm not trying to add fuel to the fire. i just happen to catch up on this thread late yesterday and was surprised at what the thread became.

i also want to repeat what i have said earlier: i believe richards apology was sincere (no matter what his motive for the apology)....i do hope he can work through this and do what it takes to be forgiven by those who deserve an appropiate apology.

so, hope that explains my thoughts to you, Huk. not trying to start an argument.

Wapland
Member

08-01-2000

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 5:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wapland a private message Print Post    
Karuuna, I am pleased you had an epiphany. I am not surprised that you continued to challenge your thinking on this issue, that takes courage. Thank you for sharing.

Quite simply, for me, I cannot not know Micheal Richards motivations so I will not even attempt to defend or suggest an explanation for his behaviour. However, I do know his actions hurt my friends in a manner I can never understand. If the public needs to understand, then they need to first listen to the victims. Were we listening to the victims, or judging their reaction to a painful event,...in this thread....this thread we can Black History?

Maybe no one person feels they are making Richard's behaviour acceptable, but to me, suggesting motivations for his behaviour when one can't really know, is somehow doing just that.

Karuuna, again, thank you so much for posting your epiphany.

Fondly,
Wappy

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 5:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
ITA, Wappy. Thank you Abby for clarifying your post. I continue to hope for the return of Mocha and Ladytex to the board, and for the ongoing quest for true understanding of the issues.

Ginger1218
Member

08-31-2001

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:13 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ginger1218 a private message Print Post    
Well, it seems that the world forgave Jessie Jackson after his disgusting "hymietown" remarks. It just showed what his true feelings are as well. So, what comes out of your mouth is what you feel.

Ginger1218
Member

08-31-2001

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 7:54 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ginger1218 a private message Print Post    
I agree with what Karuuna said earlier. What she heard on the radio is so true. If someone angers you, you call them an a**hole, or something like that, when something bad relating to their race, ethnicity, weight, disability etc. comes out of your mouth, it just shows what your issues are.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pamy a private message Print Post    
ITA and that is what I said pages back

Grooch
Member

06-16-2006

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:14 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Grooch a private message Print Post    
On the Today show this morning, they had Jesse Jackson on. He talked about his conversation he had w/ Michael Richards. To paraphrase, he told Richards he needs psychiatric counseling and asked him where this rage comes from. Was he ever beaten up, molested or raped by a black person? There must be some reason for such a rage like that. (again I am paraphrasing what he said and I hope I got it right.)

He also said that Richards is a symbol of/for racism. Jackson is more worried about how pervasive it is in this country. He seemed more worried about Trent Lott and other political leaders who are known to be racist and are still elected and have power in this country. He wants to work on that and bring attention to it.

I also believe he said that Michael Richards will be on his radio show tomorrow morning (8 to 10 am), along with Al Sharpton and a few other black leaders (sorry, I can't remember their names) to have a discussion about what happened.

Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
I might also look to the family and/or community where Richards was raised to see what influenced him as a very young person.

And I hope we can all continue pondering and evolving but I don't think there is one simple "right" or correct way to process this.

I'm saddened when many posters are painted as bigots (or having bigoted thoughts or saying bigoted things.. sorry I don't see the difference.)

I also hope that we are close enough that even if we have been hurt we can have understanding and dialog.

I could have left the board years ago over the occasional "Sybil" reference when if you've been THERE (or many other diagnoses) you know there is nothing funny about it or the way it is caused and the discrimination, economic and emotional toll. But mostly I know that people probably mean well. At least I hope they do.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Sea, yes, people mean well, but I'm afraid that doesn't seem to be seen here very well. And to be honest it saddens me greatly. I have always thought so highly of this community, but this seems to have polarized people. It also seems to have given people license all over the board to express their disgust at those who have disagreed without regard for the feelings of those people. And more people get hurt.

I've been very upset and disheartened about this issue. While I never meant to hurt anyone, in some ways I was just honestly and genuinely wrong. By posting my opinion, I hurt others in ways that I regret deeply.

For doing so, indirectly I have been labeled bigoted. And that's the very thing I tried to argue against. That one time in a person's life should not paint them forever. We make mistakes. If we are self-examining, we try to grow and learn and apologize. But one difference of opinion does not negate a lifetime of caring for people without prejudice. Yet, here, it does seem that way.

I have been very hurt by that. I am very hurt that someone cannot post an honest, well-meaning opinion without being attacked, and without having some walk away in disgust. It's as if your whole life doesn't matter, only that one mistake does.

I regret not understanding better right at the start. I am only human. And like other people I have feelings too. Lots of people are hurt here. Some of them have decided to leave with announcements (tho I hope they return), and some of them are licking their wounds more quietly. Some of them have not announced their departure but have gone just the same, and some have just not chosen to post for fear of being labeled in an ugly way.

And all of that saddens me even more. I would have hoped that we had developed a community here where people, like family, could disagree, work it out and learn and move on. I'm not so sure that's the case this time.

Mak1
Member

08-12-2002

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mak1 a private message Print Post    
Growing up in a small town, in a state whose population is still less than 1% non-Caucasian, I have always been eager to learn and celebrate the unique specialness of diverse cultures. Richards' vile outburst sickens me. ITA with Ginger, Pamy and many others whose comments I have read here. On a personal note, I am deeply saddened that TVCH members were hurt here, in our cyber home. I think I am not being naive when I say that even though we don't all see and feel everything in the same way, we do care about each other and our feelings and opinions. If this thread disappears, I will miss it. It has been educational for me as it fills in some of the major gaps in my school textbooks. I don't know if the same history books were used nationwide, but mine had very little mention of black people or women, or of the slaughter of the natives of this country.

Anyway....I want to post a snippet of black history today. On this week in 1841, the Amistad case was settled in court. The men on board the Amistad were declared to have been illegally transported to America and were freed. Their lawyer was John Q. Adams. Missionaries raised the funds to return them to their homeland and accompanied them on the journey.

" Nov 27: Thirty five survivors depart New York for Africa aboard the Gentleman, accompanied by two Black Americans, Mr. and Mrs. Henry Wilson, and three whites, Rev. and Mrs. William Raymond and Rev. James Steele, to minister the “Mendi Mission.”
NEWSPAPER REPORT: JOURNAL OF COMMERCE, November 27.

You can read the actual press clippings of the time, as well as a letter from the freed men to J. Q. Adams and his response to it. It is so interesting to read the thoughts, and language, of that time. This site is run by the Mystic Seaport Museum. Here's a link to the timeline, which has links to everything related to Amistad.

amistad.mysticseaport.org/timeline

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 8:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I have personally not attacked anyone for their views in this thread. I have a basic disagreement that racist utterances go to who the person is, whether it is Richards or Jessie Jackson.

<55>

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 9:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
<<And all of that saddens me even more. I would have hoped that we had developed a community here where people, like family, could disagree, work it out and learn and move on. I'm not so sure that's the case this time.>>

I'm afraid you might be right Karuuna, and that is just sad. Truth be known, I was raised in the 50's and I know at one point or another, I, my family, and probably all of my friends used language at home and in the schoolyard that today would be called racist. Having said that, I will be maybe the first person to admit being forever a racist. Doesn't matter, I guess, that I was under 10 years old. Many, many, teens today say that things are "gay" or "retarded." We need to label all of them forever, as well. Very sad to think that once something comes out of your mouth (and apparently there are no "degrees" to such labels) you are forever labeled.

My cyberpals and real life friends and family know what kind of a person I am. I enjoy life and am a good person. Too bad that around here at least, I will always be known as a racist and a bigot. I'm sure I would have a lot of company, if people dared to speak the truth, 100%.