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Archive through January 18, 2007

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Apr. 2007 ~ Jun. 2007: Black History (ARCHIVES January 2006 ~ June 2007): Archive through January 18, 2007 users admin

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Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
balloonsHappy Birthday, Muhammad Ali!balloons

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:20 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Escapee, sure it is. Virginia doesn't stop existing even if we moved out all the current Virginians and moved in new ones.

A state can bring a lawsuit against someone, even if all the citizens within that state do not agree. A state brings criminal cases against individuals and other legal entities, such as corporations.

A state acts as an independent *legal* body, and thus has both legal and moral obligations. It is no different than a corporation which behaves badly and is held accountable, for example, for polluting a river. Even if all the individuals who were at the corporation at the time it polluted the river are gone, the corporation is still liable for the polution, and must pay fines and for clean up. A state, and a country, are also legal entities, with 'lives' and obligations of their own, independent of whether the people within them change or not.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
This is a great link

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
Role-play class lesson on slavery suspended
5th-graders portrayed slaves and masters

By NATE KARLIN
Gannett Tennessee

CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. — A fifth-grade history lesson has been suspended indefinitely after an African-American teacher complained about the activity, in which the elementary school children were asked to assume the roles of slaves and masters, district officials said.

Elementary school principals will discuss today the controversial 19th century role-playing activity at Ringgold Elementary School two months ago.


Fifth-grade teacher Rhonda Sorensen put together an activity in November that randomly paired her students as slaves and masters to illustrate pre-Civil War America.

The activity aimed to show the horrors of slavery, said school system communication director Elise Shelton.

The activity, which had been in place four years, received negative attention when District 13 Commissioner Lettie Kendall said one of her students continued her role as a master in Kendall's math class.

Kendall publicly mentioned the November incident at Clarksville's Jan. 1 Jubilee Day event, which celebrates the Emancipation Proclamation.

Kendall said the student told her she didn't have to complete the math assignment because, as a master, she didn't have to listen to Kendall, who is black.

"This is just beyond me," Kendall said. "This was just a bad thing for children to be subjected to, I think."

Director of Schools Mike Harris talked with the parties involved and canceled the activity indefinitely after he heard Kendall's concerns that the roles were not appropriate for elementary students. The student was to apologize for her behavior to Kendall.

Shelton pointed out that school officials need to work on enhancing cultural sensitivity within the school system.

"There are going to be times, I think, when we have stumbling blocks, such as this one, and we just have to strive to move forward and help each other move forward," she said.

link

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Not really Escapee.

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
Escapee, I just read that link and, hopefully, without insulting anyone, I want to say I find the idea of paying money to people who were never and will never be slaves for 'reparation' of what was done to their ancestors so ludicrous I can't even talk about it. Especially, if it's my hard earned money their talking about using.

Mjsmooth
Member

01-15-2007

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:38 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mjsmooth a private message Print Post    
Reparations, much like affirmative action, much like quota systems are all stop gap measures to make up for the impassible barrier of institutionalized racism. Take a group of people, fracture their families for 300 years, release them under the auspices of separate but not equal, expect them to build weatlth in an enviroment where their community is disportionately poor, disproprtionatly under educated and disproprtionately affored opportunities for employment, home and land ownership as well as political representation and you have the Black American community today. The reality, in my mind, prevents the Black American community from elevating itself en masse due to the simple fact, there is no stable base to grow from. Something near 60% of all black males 18-35 are in jail. That's a major portion of a few generations. Generations of families, that coupled with a partners income, could earn and pass down weatlth to their children, for education and ventures into buisness. This is the way the current American middle class propels it's youth today in to higher class levels and gives them an accelerated path to success. So my point is, Black American's seemed trapped..well at least in stasis.. because those generations of American families that were afforded opportunities for the last 200 years have only built and passed down their wealth while enjoying opportunity that was only for the last 50 or so, partially given to these Black Americans. Reparations isn’t a novel idea, it’s merely a token of apology. Much like the reparations given to the 200,000 plus Japanese Americans placed in interment camps in the 40’s. What would make things equal for Black American’s would be a measure that would give all poor (by comparison to standard poverty levels) a shot at making it in the current American social landscape and that’s education. It’s simple to stand back and assert this, but it’s much harder to go into homes and schools in impoverished areas, through drug and gang torn neighborhoods and convince children to ignore pressures of acceptance and elevate their vision to success via hard work and diligence. So in the end, much like when other social programs were conceived to place a band-aid our countries gaping problem of poverty and race relations, we should see the easy solution is in MTV and ESPN. If our children can rap and play sports “really” well, then they have a shot to make it out of their predicament!

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
I do not see 'reparations' and apology as the same thing at all. Who do you feel should pay this 'reparation?' The people who directly benefited from slavery or all Americans whether they had any benefit or not. As far as I can tell from history there were never any slaves on any reservations. IMO American Indians have been treated as badly as the slaves but I don't hear them crying for 'reparation.' I don't think there are nearly as many wealthy American Indians as there are blacks either.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
...and now ladies and gentlemen, the gloves are off... and in this corner... Yikes! Well, folks, if nothing else, knowledge is power, and we are ALL the more powerful for the shared knowledge of history - and other people's opinions I guess.

I do think I want to REITERATE a basic point that some folks seem to be blatantly ignoring...

I have a friend. She is a German Gentile who emigrated here. She is probably the gentlest, sweetest lady I have personally EVER met. She feels so badly, and is so ashamed, and uncomfortable about what transpired in WWII, that she has developed (or always had, I don't really know) an affinity for all things Jewish, out of RESPECT. She reads the Canadian Jewish News, she is the first one to call me on the major Jewish Holidays, etc. She HURTS as much as I do about it in so many ways. She is like an open wound about it. Don't get me wrong. She is also one of the most cheerful, optimistic people I know. BUT she is ALWAYS appologizing for stuff that went down in WWII, and I am ALWAYS telling her that she needn't applogize because I UNDERSTAND AND KNOW that SHE would never do such heinous things. And I always hug her and tell her that if more people were like her, then it wouldn't have happened in the first place. BUT after this conversation, I have rethought my position. I will continue to do and say what I have, but I will NEVER blow off her appology again. She is acknowledging something important to both of us, and I won't devalue her appology by saying its not for her to appologize ever again. If she feels sorrow etc and wants to express it, I will say THANK YOU, and THEN hug her. And then I will go back to my usual mantra that the WRONG people are always applogizing and the people who should still feel the way they always did, and would repeat their actions in a heartbeat, will never appologize, or if they did, it would lack sincerity. I can accept her personal appology for the sorrow, but I utterly reject her 'guilt'.

Interjecting a little bit of my personal history here... my first fiancé was Jewish, and my husband is Italian, Catholic, but my 2nd fiancé was a German, Canadian. I had no problem with this, BUT his uncle, who I never met, had been in the German Army. Not sure I am making sense here. If my fiancé was appologizing for himself, I'd accept his sorrow, but not his 'guilt'. If his uncle wanted to appologize, I'd accept both from him. Does that make any sense?

It's about acknowledgment. It's about expressing sorrow. I'M SORRY - I FEEL SORROW - for your horrendous experience, or the horrendous act that was perpetrated upon your people by mine. I personally am not guilty, but I feel dreadful.

I carry it in my heart and want you to know this... I am sorry my Grandfather who passed away 25 years ago ran over your Grandmother with his car killed her in 1955. I am not guilty, but I am soooo terribly sorry. If I could turn back the clock, etc etc. I am sorry that my neighbour Charles Manson did what he did to your friend who was in the house with Sharon Tate.

It is NOT impossible to feel sorrow and acknowledge something heinous that we may be separated from by 6 degrees of separation or whatever.

BTW, the grandfather story and the Charles Manson story were entirely made up for the purpose of this discussion.

The fiancé and his uncle, and my sweet neighbour and her 'unfairly' haunted conscience, are true stories.

<57> As much as I love my adopted city of Toronto, I was shocked to learn there used to be signs at the beach etc saying 'no dogs or jews allowed'. And Canada didn't open its arms really wide to accept Jews fleeing the War. So I totally understand the feeling that while some things may be HISTORY, acknowlegement that the attitudes are different is a GOOD THING. Financial reparation is a sub-topic IMHO. Cuz you can't have the financial reparations without first acknowledging wrongdoing, and financial reparation doesn't always have to happen, it depends on the circumstances of each situation, etc etc.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:57 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Excellent post J!! I'm so proud of you and not just saying that cuz we share blood :-)

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
MJ: That is what I thought the link was saying. No amount of money will ever be able to make up for the acts and effects of slavery and racism, and the fact that money was even considered is kind of insulting.

Another reason that I believe that the Reparations proposal is wrong is that it gives the government an excuse to wash its hands of its wrongdoing. When asked to comment on issues concerning African American enslavement, Politicians could simply state, "Hey, its already been settled, its over and done with, get off it already!" In my opinion, African American enslavement is an issue that should never be forgotten, and the cries of anguish from those Americans should never fade away.

Juju2bigdog
Member

10-27-2000

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Juju2bigdog a private message Print Post    
And well said, MB. And if that lady needs to apologize, you probably do need to let her, although I can see how it could become annoying after the tenth time or so.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
The problem with not considering 'reparations' of some kind is that the legacy of slavery/racism is still alive and well. Mjsmooth put it very well indeed.

An apology would be a public acknowledgment of the wrongs done, and their lasting damage. And maybe, just maybe, we'd concentrate on what needs to be done to achieve equality instead of fighting stupid wars.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
Mocha, can I ask what you did not agree with in regard to that link.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Sure you can ask.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
LOL...what did you not agree with in regard to that link?

Another reason that I believe that the Reparations proposal is wrong is that it gives the government an excuse to wash its hands of its wrongdoing

In this statement I took reparations to mean just monetary.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 10:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
:-) I disagree with the whole premise that there shouldn't be any type of reparations. And to me cash is never petty.

ed'd I also do not agree with this statement: "This proposal only serves to redraw the line and accentuate the differences between races,..."

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tishala a private message Print Post    
Among the many things wrong with it is this sentence:
"The goal of all of America, in my opinion, is to exist in the society that great men such as the founding fathers and Martin Luther King dreamed of: a place where all men and women are created equal, and where a person is not judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. Equality is the goal, not accountability."
The "founding fathers," so called, dreamed of no such thing. Even someone who believed in radical democracy, like Jefferson, only placed the blame for American chattel slavery on the British [in the first draft of the Declaration of Independence] and said, in Note on the State of Virginia, that repatriating slaves to Africa was the best solution to the "problem" of enslaved Africans; after all, he said, there would be too much ill will in the US if slaves were freed and allowed into mainstream American society. "[T]he two races," he wrote, "cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." "When freed," he continued, "he [the former slave] is to be removed beyond the reach of mixture" because, of course, race-mixing would, for Jefferson, sully the white race.

Notably, he did not feel the same way about the [vanishing] "Indians," who he thought were much closer to whites libidinally, emotionally, etc., but Notes on the State of Virginia was really designed as a defense of America's government, resources, animals, plants, and all things native. So the "Indian" fit into the scheme and slaves did not.

And of course the Constitution believes in both accountability and equality. That is one of the foundations of our republic. How anyone could say that the American ideal, as defined either by MLK Jr. or the framers of the Constitution, is about one and not the other, is beyond me.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Kar said: An apology would be a public acknowledgment of the wrongs done, and their lasting damage. And maybe, just maybe, we'd concentrate on what needs to be done to achieve equality instead of fighting stupid wars.

My response:

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
Ok Mocha, I guess I can see your POV. But, if you were to actually get money, would that be enough and all would be forgiven? Who would need to pay, and how would it be divided up and by who? Seems like an easy out for the Payers and a slap in the face to the payees.


Also, I have another question, and I hope I don't offend anyone by asking, but I would love to know the percentage of Americans that were purely African. Non caucasian or any other race at all. I am not asking to be snarky, I seriously want to know.

Because when I think about reparations needing to be made, I too think to the Native Americans. There are so few pure Cherokees or Shawnees or Sioux, etc left in this world. So those who are of mixed descent, both white and Indian, do they need to apologize to themselves?

Which leads me to think that if apologies need to be made, then by the states/country as a whole is a good idea (per Kar) and in terms of reparations, monuments and memorials need to be erected so no one ever forgets or disregards the plight of the African American or the Native American.


In terms of apologies, though, some Americans will feel it's not enough and others will feel that because of that it is time to forgive and forget and that just can't happen.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
I'm sure you can google to see if there is a census count of the number of African Immigrants that is what they would have to be I believe. My African slave ancestry has been mixed with Indian, Irish, and Caucasian from rape as well as consent. It would be nice though to know what African tribe or country my ancestors did come from but on my mom's side there are no records. Not sure about my dad's side.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:35 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Escapee a private message Print Post    
I tried googling it, but I came back with nothing. However, my quest continues.

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
The caucasian in my blood is a product of a slave holder raping a slave. Do I need to apologize to myself you ask? I'll let you figure that one out

Juju2bigdog
Member

10-27-2000

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Juju2bigdog a private message Print Post    
Mocha, you might have mentioned this before, but are you participating in that DNA testing project? I think it is connected with National Geographic in some way, and I know you have mentioned it before. It costs about $100 to participate, and it is a lot more specific for those of more recent African descent (than me; I am pretty well convinced we all came out of Africa originally).

I have some Caucasian friends who have done it and found it fascinating.

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
So those who are of mixed descent, both white and Indian, do they need to apologize to themselves?

Excellent question and an excellent point. If there are monetary reparations made by the taxpayers it will mean that the black people having reparations made to them will be making part of that to themselves. Or will they single out only 'white' people's tax money to make those payments? And, I have to keep asking this ~ why should my money be involved?

Ladytex, are you saying that is the only part of you that is not pure black blood? There has been no other mix of any kind anywhere along the line?

I think the whole 'monetary reparation' thing quite ludicrous as how in the world are they ever going to figure out who is an actual decendant of a slave or who came after. How are they going to decide who pays who? And, I still don't get why anyone alive today should be paid for things that happened in the past to people who are no longer living by people who are no longer living.

This proposal only serves to redraw the line and accentuate the differences between races,..."

I totally agree with this as only the black people will receive reparation and not all the people who have been harmed by the 'whites' in the past. That absolutely will draw a line between the blacks and all else.