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Archive through November 27, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Apr. 2007 ~ Jun. 2007: Black History (ARCHIVES January 2006 ~ June 2007): Archive through November 27, 2006 users admin

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Ginger1218
Member

08-31-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 11:53 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ginger1218 a private message Print Post    
Yes, and we can hope that Jesse Jackson has learned from his unfortunate use of the phrase "hymietown" I know he has made amends to leaders of the Jewish Community and been forgiven.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 11:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
To be honest Ginger, do you still believe that Jesse Jackson is an antisemite?

I just think once something comes out of your mouth like that it goes to who you are. I believe Richards is a racist and I think Jesse is an antisemite. They both may watch what they say but it doesnt change who they are.

This apparently is not the first time Richards has sinned, according to BBC news he went on an antisemitic rant back in April at a standup show.

from bbc news:

Reports subsequently surfaced that Richards had shouted anti-Semitic remarks during a previous stand-up comedy routine in April.

Mr Rubenstein confirmed these reports but said the actor had been "playing a part" at the time.

"He did use inappropriate language, but he doesn't have any anti-Semitic feelings whatsoever," he said.

link

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I thought Michael Richards is Jewish? Rather odd that he would go on an anti-semitic rant?

I don't know if Richards is sincere in his apology or not. I don't know if he has used that word before or not. But I do believe in the power of forgiveness, and learning and growing from awful experiences. I think that's what Jesse Jackson has experienced in his life, and I am glad he believes that Richards can experience that also.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
No, Karuuna he is not jewish. He was raised catholic.

Ginger1218
Member

08-31-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ginger1218 a private message Print Post    
I do believe that Jesse Jackson did feel that way when he said it. I am not sure how he feels now. As I said before, things like that do not come out of your mouth if you do not feel that way. I have to believe that there is hope for people who have that inner hatred of others, that they can change. If I didn't believe that, then why believe there is any hope in the world.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Oh Ginger, I agree there definitely are folks who have had personal epiphanies. I remember a documentary about a fellow who had been a serious neonazi skinhead in the States, who somehow saw the error of his ways, and was befriended and practically adopted by a Jewish family. I THINK the man was a rabbi who befriended him, but not sure. Now this former skinhead lectures on the evils of hatred and racism, and antisemitism, etc to school-children, etc. So yes, I do believe 100% that folks can change, but I don't take it at face value. I have to believe it comes from within, frin deep mortification and regret, not due to external pressure, like career-salvaging.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Maris, I just tried to verify that, and some accounts say he is and some say he isn't. So I guess I'm not convinced either way.

I do think however, that you can only use the "I was in character" excuse once before it becomes unmeaningful (is that a word?). I think it's good that he is dropping that for this incident, and I hope through the public condemnation and private meetings, he does learn something, as we all are.

Like Ginger, I do believe people can change. I am grateful that most people do not judge me for who I once was.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 12:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I am sure people can change, I am skeptical that someone who has reached the age of 57 with the racist views that this guy expressed can suddenly find nirvana.

As far as Jesse is concerned, I dont know whether he found Nirvana or not but I wouldnt vote for him based on his past expressions of bigotry.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I have no idea about what motivates Richards to do anything and I'm not talking about him right now.

I think what is most troubling about the general idea that if someone is a racist, they will always be a racist is that it means essentially that there is no hope for people. It also means that it will be next to impossible to solve the problem of racism, because there will always racists out there creating more racists with no hope of change. It also means that there is no point in speaking up against racism because if racists can't change then speaking up will do no good.

That is why I prefer to hope that people can change.

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
I, too, hope that when the dust has settled this will have been a plus for us as a community. I don't want this to stifle open dialog, or the sharing that helps us all grow. On the other hand, if it makes us think about what we type before we do it, that could be a plus too. Many of us sit in front of our computers insulated from the outside world, many of us have not had many experiences with different types of people. How many truly did not think that what Michael Richards said was all that bad before this discussion, but now have a better understanding of the hoopla? How many people still feel like this could come out of their own mouths when angered? How many people found that they didn't know people as well as they thought, but are coming to know them in a different way? How many people never thought about this subject AT ALL before this? How many of us will continue to put our heads in the sand? How many of us have come to know OURSELVES a little better after this? How many of us have made a lil promise to ourselves to be more aware and more understanding of others, not just in this thread but in others as well? How many of us will be afraid of posting because of fear of being labeled? How many of us will not be afraid to post now because the lid is off the pot? How many of us feel hopeful that we can have meaningful dialog on this issue and others? What do we want to come away with?

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 1:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I would disagree with that Jimmer. There is always a point in speaking up and out. I also believe there will always be bigotry out there and it is incumbent on everyone to step up when it presents itself. Dont make excuses and call people for what they are.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 2:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
For those who think the act defines the person - HYPOTHETICALLY, let's say your child goes off to high school or college, and through the peers they choose, or whatever reason, they deliver racist remarks to other kids at school, or they commit racist acts, and it comes to your attention via a phone call or letter home.

Are your kids racist, despite you never raising them that way? No excuses; do you call your child for what they are? Or when it's someone closer to you personally, do you find yourself able to hope for change? Or do you sit back and just know one of your children is a bigot.

I just don't think the behavior is always indicative of the person. It's not either/or. I believe there is hope for people. If you try to think of the person in the example as someone a lot closer to you, it's harder to lose hope for people, and harder to write them off. At what age do we just start writing people off, vs. rehabilitating them?





"How many of us will be afraid of posting because of fear of being labeled?"

Me. 100%. Me. Try having your best intentions twisted and then used to portray you for someone you are not.

I was not a racist when I was posting here, and I was willing to speak up against all forms of racism, not wanting to give anyone an excuse, let alone Richards. Legalboxer said exactly what I was trying to say 4 days earlier, but it was implied that I was trying to make excuses, or say that this racist act shouldn't be talked about. So unfortunately, what I've learned is that if I see a racist act, I shouldn't bother questioning it, or relating it to other more subtle racist acts, in order to stop them ALL from happening. I should sit quiet for fear of offending, and hope that all the racism just goes away.




Final thought:

I really do think the mods should consider creating a Racism thread in the N&V area, and possibly moving the discussion over there. This thread used to be a celebration of accomplishments, where people came to celebrate black people's accomplishments against adversity. That is no longer the case. It is a place where many people are hurt, taking part in an interesting, but not CLEAR moral discussion. This is why I think it might belong in a more suitable area of the board, like N&V, where people know they are about to encounter posts that differ greatly from their personal views, and are willing to accept those differences, and participate in respectful and educational dialogue about an issue.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
Hypothetically, if my chilld goes off to college and delivers racist remarks, then yep I call him for what he is a racist. I would beat myself up trying to figure out where I went wrong but more importantly try to figure out how I could not even know my child to the extent that he would speak in such a way.

I do see however, a huge difference between an 18 year old and a 57 YEAR OLD issuing such remarks. The 57 year old wasnt spouding off due to peer pressure. Not making excuses for the 18 year old.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Administrator note: if the majority of people think it would be best to move the Richards conversation, and/or create a racism thread in N&V, we can do that. I don't want to either take away from the value of this thread; nor do I want to disrupt this conversation.

I do think I remember reading from Mocha that there was a racism thread previously, but it died off?

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Again there was a racism thread in N/V and it didn't get alot of play. I don't think it will again if it's recreated. This thread was never just about the accomplishments.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 3:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Heh... posted at the same time. :-)

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 4:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
ITA Eeyoreslament. I'm not afraid of being labeled. I am who I am but it is difficult to say what you feel for fear of being bullied for your comments.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 4:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I would disagree with that Jimmer. There is always a point in speaking up and out.

That is what I meant and that is why it troubles me when someone says that if someone is a racist, they will always be a racist. I think we can make a difference and try to change things.

I also agree that another step to changing things is being able to sincerely discuss these issues without fear of having your intentions misunderstood or labeled.

Ginger1218
Member

08-31-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 4:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ginger1218 a private message Print Post    
Maris, I too would never vote for someone for a public office if that person had made any kind of bigoted remark, be it racial, ethnic, gender, weight, or age, at any point in their life, even if they had atoned. I will give them every benefit of the doubt that they have mended their way of thinking, but would not chance it by putting them in a public office.

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 5:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ladytex a private message Print Post    
Jesse Jackson the elder is someone who I would never vote for a public office. He has done good as the voice of the underdog and/or the unheard in many situations, but in his past he's said and done things that I just can't support. His son, on the other hand, I've only heard good things about, but don't know as much about him as his dad.

I don't believe 'once a racist, always a racist'. I think people can change in their hearts, if they really want to.

I'm sad that people would be intimidated by posting here and I'm sad that some people feel they were labeled as racist when they aren't <57>. I hope those that were misunderstood would feel comfortable enough to help us understand where we are wrong about them, and I don't mean that condescendingly at all. I just mean that if I've misunderstood someone, I would hope they'd explain to me where the misunderstanding is stemming from.

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 4:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hermione69 a private message Print Post    
Read this on MSNBC.com and thought it was powerful.

Let's Talk About Race

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 5:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    
The Sundance Channel's Iconclasts series this week pairs Dave Chappelle and Maya Angelou.

http://www.sundancechannel.com/home/

Zachsmom
Member

07-13-2000

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 5:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Zachsmom a private message Print Post    
I am with Maris, if someone if 57 years old and those words can flow so easily in a moment of heat, it shows who they are at the core.

I don't believe that just because someone says they are sorry they should be forgiven. How many people would have forgiven Hitler if he said "Oh gee, my bad"? A person who was apologized to might come to understand where the hate came from and let it go, but that doesn't mean the person is forgiven.

I also agree with Legal (I think it was Legal) who stated that it really demeans racism when a person says "I don't know how bad this could hurt because I am not black"

I think everyone could understand if they put themselves in the position that they understand how much it hurts to have the core of who you are degraded.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:17 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
Kar, I just got your note. Thanks and forgotten.

Zachsmom
Member

07-13-2000

Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Zachsmom a private message Print Post    
With the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and all of the racial issues that we have discussed, this book comes to mind.

It's one of my favorite books. It's very educational.

Rising Tide

The author of The Ambition and the Power now dissects the story behind the great Mississippi River flood of 1927--an untold American epic of money, race, culture, and empire in New Orleans and the Delta, and of one family--the Percys--whose members ruled a state, hunted with presidents, and defeated the Ku Klux Klan. Illustrations. 512 pp. 75,000 print.