Author |
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 3:34 pm
I am honestly asking a no agenda question, but am a little timid...... what good would it do for the state of Virginia to apologize? none of the people doing the apology were around during slavery and none of the people accepting the apology were around during slavery. Wouldn't this be like your child being insulted by his teacher, andt he teacher's uncle apologizes to your sister for the remark? As a Christian, I don't expect Roman citizens to apologize to me for the crucifiction of Christ.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 3:47 pm
Not very long ago, I heard a story about a man whose grandson killed another man's son. The grandson went to prison. The grandfather went to the father of the dead boy and apologized for what his grandson had done. In the end they established a foundation to work with youth to stop gang membership and violence. The grandfather was not responsible for what his grandson had done. But he cared. And he wanted to show that it mattered to him. We can get caught up in the technical meaning of apology and say only those who actually did the wrongdoing should apologize. Or we can do what it takes to make reparations and make the world a better place. I know my choice. I can apologize all day long, just because I care. It's no skin off my nose.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 3:49 pm
Fair question Native Texannie. Luv your response Kar! <77>
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 3:53 pm
Thanks for your explanation, Kar. I guess the next question is, does it really change anything? Does demanding it insure it's genuine?
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 4:08 pm
Good point Annie, when you have to beg or demand something, is it (whatever thing you are demanding) even valid?
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 4:09 pm
Mame, I think you are getting your Texans mixed up!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 4:28 pm
Annie - I had to look again at the article after I read your question. I don't see a 'demand', so maybe I missed something? It just looks to me like some introduced a resolution for Virginia to apologize for slavery. It seems to me that it is quite fair to acknowledge that Virginia ands it legal citizens at the time DID in fact benefit from slavery. We're asking an entity (the state of Virginia) to apologize for laws that in its past benefitted some off the hard work of others. So, I guess I don't get what all the objections are. Slavery was legal but morally wrong. Virginia was a state with an immoral law, from which its citizens benefitted. What's wrong with now saying "we're sorry for what our predecessors did. We acknowledge it was wrong and caused incredible human suffering." I don't get the objection. It's interesting and disturbing to me that Hargrove thinks an apology to the native Americans is in order for stealing their land, but no apology is due to the slaves who lost their lives....
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 8:14 pm
I guess I am just not understanding what the apology would accomplish. Thanks for trying to explain it to me.}
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 8:47 pm
Thanks Juliboo! Yikes, I can't believe I did that... I do get the Texans all mixed up in my head, but rarely screw it up posting. Ack! Dearest Kar, or whichever lovely and kindhearted mod-guru sees this, could you puhleeze fix my previous post to say Texannie rather than Native. Duh. Thank you!
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:02 pm
It's an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of WRONGDOING. It cannot erase the damage done, but its a start. It offers, dignity, condolence, respect, chagrin, stepping up to the plate and OWNING the harm done in the name of the place. Countries learn. Germany is one of Israel's closest, most protective allies nowadays. Most of the war criminals and their victims are gone, but the COUNTRY has stepped up and done a lot to try to make up for the this. It can't punish those who got away, nor will it bring back the dead. But it says to the families and the rest of the world - We did wrong, we are sorry, we are ashamed, what can we do to help NOW? It's a fresh, cleansing new page. Other countries have done similarly. Usually with no monetary restitution but at least with an official public appology. I believe that fairly recently the USA and/OR CANADA appologized to the Japanese communities, because of the internment camps during WWII. (I THINK it was Canada.) I HOPE I am making sense here. (If not someone is bound to come by and correct me. LOL)
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Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:14 pm
I am a member of a class, mammalia, the most intelligent genus of which is humans who evolved out of common ancestry of the origin of man in Africa. And those people are called homo sapiens. Class: mammalia, Genus: homo, Species: sapiens. My further sub-species, although not even scientifically a sub-species, of homo sapiens appears at one point to have emigrated to colder northern climates, where the melanin in their epidermis did not absorb vitamin D as well from the much weaker northern sun as it did in the climes closer to the equator. And thus over time, these ancestors lost melanin and developed lighter skins to allow them to survive by absorbing more Vitamin D from the sun. In time, my melanin deprived class of people, in order to survive in their cold world, developed tools, and machines, and weapons of war, and class distinctions, and other horrific things. My class of people eventually spread out over the world and became conquerors of all they saw. They thought it was the right thing to do, and it made them wealthy and powerful. In more time, my class of people rediscovered the melanin-rich people, of their same homo sapiens origin, who had never emigrated to the colder climates. And my class, now having tools and weapons and false arrogance, captured and enslaved these darker skinned people, descended from the very same common ancestors. And they took them in bondage to foreign continents and forced them to work as slaves and treated them as sub-humans for many generations. I can very easily apologize for what my class of people has done even though I have never personally enslaved a single other homo sapiens.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:28 pm
Is an apology from someone for an act perpetrated by someone else who was totally beyond the control or influence of the person who is apologizing, even relevant and meaningful? Let's say someone has a father that they have never even met and at some point it becomes clear to them that their father victimized someone. Should the son (who has never met his father and was powerless to stop him) go to the victims and apologize? What makes an apology like this meaningful? I agree with the State fully recognizing that what these people did was wrong but I'm not sure that is the same thing as apologizing for something that one couldn't prevent. It's kind of like apologizing for it raining on someone's Wedding day. You feel bad about it but you can't change it and you didn't cause it.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:03 am
Yes it is very relevant and very meaningful.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:16 am
This is a very sincere question: What makes an apology like this meaningful?
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:27 am
For the reasons mentioned by Zuzu, Mame, and Kar. Jimmer I don't think you can equate the situation of slavery with an act of nature. Apples and oranges.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:30 am
It's not the same as rain to apologize for something YOUR ancestors did. Just the grandfather above, he did not kill anyone, but he apologized for his grandson's behavior. That apology lead to two people creating a foundation that does great good in that community. I guess I don't understand the resistance. The people to ask, are the people who suffered the longlasting effects of slavery and racism. If they feel an apology would be meaningful and helpful, that should carry the most weight. They are the ones who were injured.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:32 am
Well, that does not answer my question. But nevermind, don't answer it. ETA: Not your post Kar. I posted before I saw your post.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:42 am
No problem Mame!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:46 am
Julie, I think it is meaningful because the legacy of slavery lasts today. It acknowledges the devastation of past racism leading all the way to the racism and pain of today. What makes any apology meaningful is that it tells someone that you get it, that you understand how awful it was and is. Validating someone's reality and suffering is a gracious and compassionate act. Why would anyone withhold it, if someone asks for it? Why would anyone refuse to validate the true and real feelings of someone who has suffered the legacy of racism,and whose ancestors were treated worse than animals? If you can perform an act of healing, that really costs you nothing, all that should matter is that the person who carries that painful legacy asks for it. Ultimately, it's the same as any apology, what makes it meaningful is that those who did suffer and are suffering finally know that you understand.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:49 am
My answer would be the same as what Kar, Mame and Zuzu have already said. I couldn't say it any better. But my question now is why is it such a big deal to you for an apology not to be given? My ancestors were forcibly(sp) taken from their homeland and brought to this country as slaves, free labor. Given no rights. Were raped and beaten and other atrocities were committed against them by your ancestors. This country was built on the backs of my ancestors so your ancestors could live the good life. What did we get in return? Not even the 40acres and a mule that was promised to us. But you don't feel that you can even apologize for what was done just because it wasn't directly done by you? But trust this, if an apology isn't sincerely given then I wouldn't take it. ed'd And we are still feeling the effects from racism and prejudice today.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:56 am
Thank you both Kar and Mocha. Mocha, I never said I thought that an apology should not be given. I do not feel like that at all. Why do you think that? I question the "sincerety" of any apology that is pressured.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 8:58 am
and other atrocities were committed against them by your ancestors. I take offense to that. My ancestors did not even come to the USA until the 1900's. At any rate, I do not want to create any ill will. An apology could be a good thing. I just wonder how "sincere" it would be..
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:01 am
I don't think that either Mocha. I understand the importance of acknowledgement, I just didn't understand the apology part. Thanks to everyone who explained it.
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:04 am
There was a really great piece a LA radio host did a while ago about apologizing for slavery. He went to talk to both sides of his family: one in Maryland had owned a plantation and kept slaves; he noticed that when he did the research for it, there were lots of people in the town who were not white and had his last name, so he continued his research and determined that those people probably had his name because their ancestors had been enslaved by his family. A kind of legacy of slavery. The other side of his family--his mother's IIRC--lived in the midwest and one of his relatives was Lincoln. A substantially different legacy, to be sure. One of the great things in the broadcast was Harrison going to visit African-Americans who shared his name and apologizing to them for what his family had done in the past and the sincere shock and acceptance of his apology. [I am looking for the segment online but I can't seem to find it.] I suspect that the antipathy some seem to express for the idea of apologizing for slavery would render the apology useless, however. I would just say that one of the most important things in South African history after apartheid was the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission," when the nation faced its scarred past with its eyes open. NB: I think President Clinton signed an executive order that apologized for slavery, but I might be wrong about that. Too lazy to look it up.
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Chiliwilli
Member
09-04-2006
| Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:06 am
I don't owe anyone an apology. This country belongs to my ancestors and was stolen from them. My ancestors were raped, murdered and pillaged for their land and then sent to live on reservationsn with severe consequences if they dared to step off or get out of line. If anything, the land that was stolen should be returned to the people it was stolen from and everyone else can live on what's left. That is if we're talking about making reparations and doing what's right finally.
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