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Archive through November 24, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Apr. 2007 ~ Jun. 2007: Black History (ARCHIVES January 2006 ~ June 2007): Archive through November 24, 2006 users admin

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Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:19 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I dont understand why it is a negative to put a label on someone of racist when they spew racist statements. Bottom line, nobody held a gun to his head and forced him to say words that went against who he is. Saying those words, define him to me.

Just as with Jessie Jackson, sitting in an airport talking about his campaign and referring to hymie town, it defined who he is.

If the words are in you then that makes you a bigot. It seems that somehow people are looking to find degrees of criminality if you will. The crime is the crime and there arent degrees. I think people are making excuses for Richards because they are thinking of Kramer a loveable character he played for seven or whatever seasons. Kramer doesnt define who he is, the words that came out of his mouth says who he is to me. With Kramer, he acted a part and spoke a script that was written for him.

Nobody wrote the script he spoke that night on stage, those words came from within him.

I will always label him a racist, he can apologize as he should but I would never respect him.

Ophiliasgrandma
Member

09-04-2001

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ophiliasgrandma a private message Print Post    
I'm wondering just what would appease those who are outraged by Richards' rant...short of a public flogging?

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
ITA, Maris.

I don't even think a public flogging will appease some of the outraged.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
It is not about appeasing, it is simply expressing an opinion that the guy is a racist. I dont care if he said it when he was calmly eating an ice cream somewhere or he said it in anger, it was inside him and it came out.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
First, let me say I respect anyone's right to label Richards a racist if they see it that way.

I also respect the right of others to disagree.

No one here, not a single person, has approved of what Richards has done. No one. Including me.

People have disagreed on why he did it. Is he a racist or a rage-aholic?

I am willing to forgive people for all kinds of things, provided they show remorse and effort to change. That's who I am. I cannot be someone else. I will not judge harshly. Over the years, people have come and gone from this board. No one was forced out without being given a second chance, or third, or fourth sometimes. Some people have blatantly disregarded the rules, and yet still they have been allowed to come back and try again. I believe in the ability of people to grow and change. I believe in forgiveness.

I admit I am not black and therefore cannot fully comprehend what it means to be black. That's an impossibility for me. I am not gay either. I am not a lot of things. But that does not mean my opinion, or anyone else's should automatically be called bigoted or somehow negated because I see it differently. I am a therapist. I see people through that lens. Thus my bias is to see Richards as having a serious psychological issue. I am not demanding that everyone else see him that way; just offering my own view.

I have said that what Richards did was racist. It was ugly and horrible. I realize that for some it will raise stronger feelings than for others; and I respect that. I make no excuse for his behavior, however it was motivated, it was horribly wrong.

However, I must say I don't think it's fair to call someone a bigot, when they disagree on one event. I think there is far more about racism that we agree on. I wish that would be the most important thing, rather than having a disagreement on one thing become the most important thing.

To those members who have been offended by this discussion, I am truly and deeply sorry. I have met Ladytex and Mocha, and I think very highly of both of them. They are long time and valuable members of this board; and I am heartbroken that they were hurt by this conversation. In retrospect, perhaps we should have stopped this conversation from the start; but I had no way of knowing people would become so offended by it, that they would feel it necessary to leave.

I can only apologize deeply for any hurt I personally have caused; and my hope that no one will leave because of honest difference of opinion. We are only human, all of us.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
Excellent post Karuuna. Sometimes posters just need to walk away for a bit when certain topics become too much for them. Then after a bit, they return.

No one here has approved of what Richards said. I also highly agree that it is not fair to call someone a bigot if they disagree.

Wapland
Member

08-01-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 9:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wapland a private message Print Post    
Forgive me for jumping into something out of lurker mode, however I needed to point out somethings I have observed.

Firstly, it is pretty easy to have opinions, especially when we have not been deeply hurt and affected by the actions of someone like Michael Richards.

Secondly, my opinion becomes irrelevant and less important when people I care about are hurt and will continue to be affected by the actions of someone I don't know and don't really need to defend. An event that happened in a comedy club has now become a widespread international topic of discussion. I simply cannot imagine the pain friends like Mocha and Ladytex are feeling each time it is discussed, each time an opinion is shared.

With all due respect Karuuna, I am not a therapist. I am a teacher. I see life through that lens, but sometimes I must set the lens aside, and see the hurt of people, the pain of my friends. In this case, it is more important for me to support my friends, for I really have no opinion of consequence. I am not living it. I, instead choose to listen and understand the pain from those who were hurt by his actions and will be the most affected by it.

Fondly with a great deal of trepidation and thought,
Wappy

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 9:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
There is the question, expresing remorse. It is one thing to apologize for something AFTER you have been caught and another thing to confess and apologize.

Judges hear apologies and remorse all the time when the convicted are about to be sentenced. Lets face it Richards, just saw his career flushing down the toilet, he hired a PR man who happened to be a friend of Al Sharptons and now he is doing major damage control.

We have no way of knowing whether he genuinely felt remorse for what he did or whether he is sorry after it appeared on UTube, CNN and everywhere else.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Wappy, thanks for posting your opinion; and I respect very much what you have to say. Unfortunately, I cannot be someone that I am not. I am a therapist; and I am forgiving. If my friends want me to be someone I am not, then I am at a loss.

I do respect the right of others to feel differently. I am not asking anyone else to change their minds, and I will not lose respect for them if they do not. I want them to be who they are, not who I want them to be. I would hope that others could understand that I respect and hear their pain, while at the same time offer a different view. I never understood the rule that we have to throw off who we are in order to support someone.

I am confounded by one thing. Everyone seems to think that some of us are *defending* Richards. And I don't get that. Everyone here has been clear that his words that night are indefensible. We have only differed on his motivation, and what his overall personality might be. If it keeps getting mischaracterized as *defending* him, any attempt at mutual understanding will continue to thwarted. No one thinks what he said or did was okay. No one! I would hope that people could stop a momemt and reflect on that and get it straight.

I do regret if I have not resoundly criticized what Richards said enough. I should have more strongly said that what he said was horribly wrong; and I do believe it was. What he said was horribly racist. I cannot in any way fathom how hurtful that might be to someone who is black; I can only understand that it is indeed hurtful. But I will not say that I comprehend it, I am not black, and so cannot. I think, it would be arrogant of me to say I understand that pain.

As in all other cases with very human human beings who make horrible mistakes, I am willing to wait and see if Richards is truly racist, ie, he acts in other racist ways, and does not make a true effort to learn and grow and become a better person from this experience. To condemn him for now and all time, would mean that there is no forgiveness.

I have done horrible things in my past. Things which I deeply, deeply regret. Things far worse than what Richards has done. To deny forgiveness to Richards, would mean that I too should now and forever be denied forgiveness. Some may think so, and I respect their right to think so.

But I cannot be that kind of person.

Again, I cannot say how much I regret that this conversation and that the things I have contributed have hurt people whom I respect and think highly of. Their feelings do matter to me; and I know that they have valued their 'life' on this board, and I truly hope they will not feel like they have to leave that behind.

I can only hope that there is space in our diversity for intelligent, caring people to disagree about some things; without severing relationship, and dialog. We can only continue to learn and grow from each other when conversation continues.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I will tell you what confuses me. I dont understand how you can say that someone said something horribly racist and then say that person is not a racist. How do you separate the acts of the person from the person? I dont get it.

I dont see people as excusing what he said but what I see is a separation of what he said from who he is and that I dont get. Nobody forced him to say it, it came from within in and so I dont understand how you can see his actions as racist but not see him as a racist.

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
Foxx Threatens Racist Richards
By WENN| Wednesday, November 22, 2006

HOLLYWOOD - Enraged Jamie Foxx has threatened to physically harm former Seinfeld star Michael Richards if the pair ever meet after the comedian stunned America with a racist rant during a recent stand-up show. Richards has publicly apologized for remarks he made about two African-American hecklers during a performance at the Laugh Factory in Hollywood on Friday night--but that's not enough for Foxx.

The Oscar winner, who was once a mainstay of the Los Angeles comedy circuit, admits he was particularly offended by Richards' remarks.

He says, "When I see him, it's on. I'm not going to let him get away with it."

"If I'd have been in the audience he would've had to put his dukes up. He probably should go get a private island somewhere, cause if I see him..."

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 11:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
Oh, that'd make things "right" now wouldn't it!

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 11:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    

quote:

Is he a racist or a rage-aholic?




Why can't he be both? You've presented a false dichotomy.

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 11:54 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
I think what comes out of your mouth is generally who you are at heart but not cast in stone. If that is true then Richards is truly a horrible human being at this time but he has potential for change. Whether he is really a racist or not or is one who can be redeemed remains to be seen. It will be a long time before we know as he will be minding his public P's and Q's for quite a while I would imagine. We can only watch and listen to what he does and says from here on to determine his true character.

While I'm sorry some have been hurt by the discussion here, we should all be free to state how we feel and what we think as long as we are respectful when we do it and respectful when we disagree.

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 11:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hermione69 a private message Print Post    
Prisoner, I appreciated your post on the previous page. It made me think.

By participating, I was exploring a subject that strikes a chord in almost all of us. I know I have said some ugly things to people in my life (most of it to my ex-husband!) and I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the ugliest parts of me define who I am, but I guess they are all part and parcel of what makes me tick.

Someone said this started off as a look at what Richards said and turned into a discussion on the definition of racism. I can talk about what is racism until the cows come home, but Prisoner is right in that as a nonblack I have no way of knowing how Richards' remarks cut to the bone. I am sorry if I in any way upset someone in exploring the topic.

The only basis for comparison I even have is being deaf and how angry I get when someone tries to define that reality for me. As a nonblack, I can't define the reality of a black individual. I can't presume to understand what it is like to hear remarks like what Richards said.

I was reading comments at an MSNBC message board and someone said something that really helped put it into context. This poster said, "He was talking about LYNCHING. He said 50 years ago we would have had you upside down with a pitchfork up your ass. What if he had said to a Jewish person that x number of years ago we would have skinned you and used you as a lampshade?"

I'm sorry it took a thump on the side of the head for me to see it that way. I had a dream that a list was posted at TVCH separating the bigots and the nonbigots and I was on the bigot list and I was so ashamed.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 1:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Every single person posting here has condemned what Richards did as being racist. No one has defended or approved of what he did and everyone has said that it is a disgrace.

I'm sure the "lists" would differ depending on who was creating them. Based on what has been posted, I don't believe that anyone who has been accused of bigotry here should appear on a bigoted list.

People on this board are justifiably upset about the racist remarks that Richards directed at other individuals. However, it seems to be acceptable to some people to directly call someone here a bigot? Being called a bigot may not hurt as much as when a racial slur is directed at you or there has been a history of racial slurs directed at you. I have no way to measure that. I can say conclusively, however, that being called a bigot does hurt.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 1:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Maris, I think you can make a racist comment and not be racist. Just as a person can make a stupid comment but still be intelligent.

I agree that if the hecklers were old fat men (I'll use men instead of women since I an older guy that is fat) he would have made comments based on those conditions.

That doesn't excuse at all what he chose to say. And two wrongs don't made a right--and neither do three. The hecklers calling him a "crakcer-a$$" was wrong to do, and Jamie Foxx saying he would physically beat him up was wrong.

So no matter how one looks at it he did a really horrible thing. It's possible he has racist issues and it's possible he doesn't--that he used something he thought would hurt them the most.

Just like every other situation, we can discuss the behaviors, but we can't know the real person from just one instance of a behavior.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    
Who called whom a bigot? The only thing I see is Mocha saying she washes her hands of the bigotedness around here. If one can say racist things without being a racist, than one can display bigotedness without being a bigot.

Also, according to their interview on the Today Show, the so-called hecklers didn't call Richards a cracker-a$$. They were on the second floor, and that was said by someone else on the main floor. Of course, they also say it all started when they made too much noise for him when they came in, and he referred to the "dumb bunch of blacks and Mexicans" that just came in. It was only after that comment some of the men in the group said he wasn't funny, and he replied "F--- y--, n-----!" Again, this was backed up by what Tom Dreesen, a comic who was there, said before these men were interviewed.

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Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Who called whom a bigot? The only thing I see is Mocha saying she washes her hands of the bigotedness around here. If one can say racist things without being a racist, than one can display bigotedness without being a bigot.

I certainly agree with that but I was simply being consistent with what Mocha had said about racism.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:14 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
No amount of heckling deserves that--and I have not heard anyone here say any different.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pamy a private message Print Post    
I hope Mojo/LadyT and anyone else that may want to leave here reconsider. You input and knowledge about Black History is greatly appreciated and would be missed deeply.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 3:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
Thanks Lance for your answer.

It just seems to me that people are willing to bend over backwards and give this guy the benefit of the doubt and I wonder how much of that has to do with his portraying a much loved character on Seinfeld.

Would people be arguing about racist statements versus a racist person if it had been someone else?

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    

quote:

No amount of heckling deserves that--and I have not heard anyone here say any different.




An awful lot of people have said words to the effect that "No amount of heckling deserves that, but..." One person said both parties contributed to the fiasco. Another said the "hecklers" said something hurtful to Richards and he said something hurtful back. Others have said that if the races were reversed, this never would have made the news.

Every one of those statement, those "buts," negates the statement that what he did was reprehensible in some little way. Add up all those little ways and you have wonderful women like Ladytex and Mocha leaving.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I'm going to repeat this one more time.

Every single person posting here has condemned what Richards did as being racist. No one has defended or approved of what he did and everyone has said that it is a disgrace.

An attempt to understand the sources of racism can only improve the situation and help us make things better. It's not like Richards was spouting these words as a gurgling baby. In order to prevent racism it helps to try to understand the causes of it and focus on what we need to do to eliminate it.

I feel bad if that isn't enough for Mocha and Ladytex. If they decide to stay away I will miss them. It is a loss for all of us, and IMO it is a loss and a lost opportunity for them as well.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Prisoner#6, I think the point you make may end up being lazy grammar (at least I hope it is).

Your point about it being said what he said was wrong but...

This one has been a pet peeve of mine for some time--especially at work. When someone says "but" after a statement, they are in affect wiping out everything said before the word but.

Yet people everyday do just that and their intent is something different. Your report was great but...

In most cases they mean that the report was great although there may be a point that could be made stronger. Yet, the words they use really say the report wasn't great.

Folks really do need to watch how they use the word "butt after making a statement or statements. I would hope no one here would start out by saying what he said was wrong really feeling what he said was ok.

The other things brought up--at least the ones I brought up--they were not said to excuse anything Michael said or did--only to point out he wasn't the only one to say something wrong. If wrong is wrong, let's consider all mistakes and discuss them.

I feel badly that anyone would leave. I am not about to tell them how to feel about this since I wouldn't want anyone trying to do the same to me. I hope in time dialog can allow them to feel good about coming back.

Dialog to help everyone better see the other points. I don't see anyone changing their minds on how they feel--I just hope we can better understand each other more through communication.

And I believe that it wouldn't matter who had done this to whom--it wouldn't have been hidden.