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Archive through November 24, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: Apr. 2007 ~ Jun. 2007: Black History (ARCHIVES January 2006 ~ June 2007): Archive through November 24, 2006 users admin

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Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pamy a private message Print Post    
calling him a m-fing cracker is not even in the same league as the things Richards said.

Now there is a lady on news saying he said racist things to a Jewish man a few months ago

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 5:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Pamy, that just means the heckler isn't as good at verbal nonsense.

Look, let me say again, I'm not saying that his comments should be taken lightly, nor am I in ANY way, minimizing racism in this country, or the nightmare and horribleness of lynching.

I am only saying that Richards goal here wasn't to be racist, it was to be ugly and mean. He chose racist remarks because of the race of the recipient. Much like if the recipient had been an overweight woman, he would have made remarks about her weight; or if the heckler had been a country boy, he would have made redneck remarks, or jokes about trailer trash.

Richards problem isn't racism, it is his lack of control, and rage.

Holding Richards out as a racist triviliazes the damage of the very real racists and racism that pervades this nation.

Ophiliasgrandma
Member

09-04-2001

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 5:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ophiliasgrandma a private message Print Post    
Well said, Kar.

Adven
Member

02-06-2001

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 6:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Adven a private message Print Post    
Exactly. Micheal Richards is a third rate comedian who went off his nut. It's an ugly tempest in a teapot.

Far more troubling and an event that got far less press, was Harold Ford's failed bid to become the first black senator from the South - a statistic shameful in itself - in part because his Republican opponent ran attack ads depicting him dating white women.

That someone can still get elected in this day and age to such a significant office using ads with those kind of blatant racial undertones should trouble us all much more than Richard's diatribe.

Babyruth
Member

07-19-2001

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyruth a private message Print Post    
Or, Pamy, maybe the heckler chose not to stoop to Richards' low level. :-)

Richards is indeed a third rate comedian who went off his nut. The things he said were deeply racist and disturbing, way beyond simple name calling or angry use of the N-word. Whether or not he can/should be labeled a racist person in general seems besides the point. For that moment in time (preserved forever on the Web) while spewing deeply hateful, racist words to a stranger in public, he was being a racist. Where that came from and how he really feels about other races is known only to him (IF at all), so we cannot presume to know what his goals and intent were.

I agree with Sharpton (regardless of his religious affiliation or title) that the apology on Letterman was insufficient. A start, for sure, but not enough.

Westtexan
Member

07-16-2004

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Westtexan a private message Print Post    
Far more troubling and an event that got far less press, was Harold Ford's failed bid to become the first black senator from the South - a statistic shameful in itself - in part because his Republican opponent ran attack ads depicting him dating white women.


I didn't know about this. I'm going to have to go googling. This seems so backwards. I've got to find out in what state this occurred.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Oh, it's so hard for me to say... I agree with Adven.

The ads run against Ford were far more racist, than a comedian who loses his temper and says ugly things. The ads were coldly calculated to play off racist stereotypes as black men lusting after white women (and in this case, prostitutes). Where was Sharpton's outcry against that act?

In other ads, jungle drums were played in the background every time Ford is mentioned.

To me, that's true racism and bigotry; and that's what we should be much more concerned about than some failing comedian with a personal problem.

Babyruth
Member

07-19-2001

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Babyruth a private message Print Post    
Saying one incident is worse than another doesn't make the "lesser" offense more palatable. There's racist crap every minute of every day all over this country. It's not pointless to expose it for what is it and denounce it wherever it happens.

Westtexan
Member

07-16-2004

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Westtexan a private message Print Post    
Ok. I just googled and found the anti-Harold Ford ad mentioned (love the Internet). I didn't see it as racist--just stupid, typical mudslinging. They seemed to try to depict him as a man who likes to date young, sexy bimbos as if that would be a reason not to vote for him. I'm cynical enough to assume just about any other single (or married) politician would do the same thing. If he were married, maybe then it would be a scandal.

Personally, mudslinging ads turn me off of the candidate's party creating the ad. One of my favorite quotes of all time--the only one I have posted right above my desk where my computer sits-is...You can tell more about a person by what he says about others than you can by what others say about him.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I dont understand how you cannot label someone a racist who goes on a racist rant the way richards did. Is it because he said it in a rage therefore he cant be a racist?

To me he is a racist pure and simple and I have seen no evidence to prove otherwise.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    

quote:

Yes, Michael Richards had it "in him" to think racial thoughts or be familiar with racial epithets. That doesn't make him racist. He commited a racist act, perhaps.




Perhaps??


quote:

I don't think it was intended as racist as much as it was intended to hurt them back and try to win. A fool's battle.





quote:

Methinks the Sharptons are taking this way too personally. JMO.




Kar I am actually shocked and apalled by what you have said. I think it is a slap in the face of every black person. I'm sorry but I can not participate in a place with people who can even think this. I wash my hands of the bigotedness that is going on here.

So just continue on your merry way in the black history thread in fact you can now just turn it into a history thread because I think you have finally run away most of the black people who participate here.

Peace.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 7:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Oh, I think there are worse incidents than others. Playing jungle drums in the background when talking about a black politician is quite racist. Coupled with playing off old stereotypes of black men and white women as well. And done by the Republican National Committee?!

I'm not saying what Richards did was palatable, and I would be sad to think anyone sees my view mischaracterized that way. I never said it was palatable. I even said his remarks were racist.

I just don't think there's some kind of agenda on his part, unlike the ads against Ford. One is the crazy ranting of a person with issues. The other is cold, calculated and far more dangerous to society.

Maris, I'm saying that his comments were racist. I would only call him a racist if it was a pattern for him, rather than a single, event of someone who seems unbalanced. I'd rather reserve "racist" for someone who purposefully and with forethought undermines other races.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 8:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I will just beg to disagree. What came out of his mouth makes him a racist in my book. I dont care if you say it once or a thousand times, in fact he went on and on and on. It was ugly and racist.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 8:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
What Richards said certainly seemed racist to me.

All racism is bad. Are there different degrees of racism? IMO yes. There is the buried racism that may only emerge at times of irrational anger. Then there is the sort of calculated racism that pervades all aspects of a person's life. The sort of racism that unbelievably some people are proud of and think is right.

Richards appears to belong in the first category. He does not appear to be proud of what he did and he has no interest in continuing a racist diatribe when he is not angry. He is not about to become the head of some racist organization or spout racist thoughts as part of a political speech.

Having said that, what he did was IMO clearly racist and he deserves every ounce of criticism he has received for doing it.

Holly
Member

06-19-2005

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:20 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Holly a private message Print Post    
< I agree though that we have never had the racial tension or history that the U.S. experienced.> (Re: Canada)

Has any other 1st World country?

There's plenty of black people in Canada, yes? There's plenty in the UK and Europe, yes?

So why is it so different here in the USA? What perpetuates the racial tension here? Lack of REAL dialogue? North vs South? Double standards for blacks? Backlash against whites? Retribution? Victimhood? What??

I've lived in Canada, UK, and USA and have NEVER experienced racism as I have living in the southern USA. It's palpable. It's ugly. It's self-defeating. And it most certainly comes from both sides. The pendulum swings is all.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
Maybe because the nation of the USA was BUILT by slaves, so it is a fundamental bruise to its identity?

I'm not AT ALL schooled in US history, but from what I HAVE been taught, it seems like the nation-building that too place was not based on the efforts of the white pioneers, but at the blood, sweat and tears of black people brought over to do the Europeans' dirty work.

Canada didn't do the same thing, as nation building wasn't as rapid with our climate, and many European countries were established by their own racial ancestors. The influx of races in the European countries came in this century, and so the racial tensions aren't so entrenched in the less recent culture.

From what I understand, there is a huge racism problem against black people in France, but it is rather new (like the last 50 years), and it's more based in fear of differences, rather than the exploitation that took place in the USA.




I would like to state my disappointment that we have lost both Ladytex and Mocha in this thread that they have contributed to for so long. I hope I personally have never come across as bigoted, and if I have, I welcome a note in my folder, or a private email for either of you, to help set me straight. I apologize if ANYTHING I have said has offended you. I only brought up the other races in the Richards situation for the sake of exploring the issue of racism. I am sorry if it caused any pain.

Chiliwilli
Member

09-04-2006

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 1:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chiliwilli a private message Print Post    
calling him a m-fing cracker is not even in the same league as the things Richards said.

While calling him that name is not as bad as some of the things Richards said; calling him that name is no different than the name Richards called him. They are both bad names to call anyone and, when used, are meant in a totally racist way.

Adven
Member

02-06-2001

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Adven a private message Print Post    
Unless I missed someone's post, no one has suggested Richards' rant is anything but disgusting and unacceptable. The only debate seems to be whether, by itself, it necessarily makes Richards a racist. I don't think it does, but I appreciate and understand why others do.

Jesse Jackson once referred to NYC as "heimie town" in reference to it's large Jewish population and Ray Nagin made his well known allusion to rebuilding his chocolate city in NO. These are hardly of the same ugliness or intensity of Richards' rant, yet they are racist comments. The only difference is degree. If we are going to afix the label of racist to Richards for a single incident, then does this mean Nagin and Jackson are defined by their single comments as well?

Hukdonreality
Member

09-29-2003

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hukdonreality a private message Print Post    
I have oftentimes seen posters say in their folders that they are leaving the board for one reason or another. They always come back, praising the love and support of certain good friend posters, yadda yadda. In general, I say that if you want to leave the board, just do it if you're so inclined and don't make a production out of it.

In this case; however, I am asking that those who are choosing to leave because of this thread to stop for just a moment and help those of us who do NOT want you to leave to understand why you are doing so.

The non-black posters on this board can not and will not EVER understand the true emotions that run through the veins of the black posters here. It is a shame, IMO, that non-black posters are not given the opportunity to express how they feel, or to question further explanation for understanding's sake without hurting the feelings or offending some of the black posters. The discussion continues because people CARE to understand and the only way we learn is through discourse.

While it is clear here that not a single poster has said that what Michael Richards did was anything other than horrendous, it has become muddled what the meaning of racism truly is. It seems that some feel that his comments were racist; some feel that his comments are just "degrees" of racism; some feel that is just some sort of maybe "temporary" racism; and some feel that he absolutely IS a racist by definition.

I, for one, LOVE Mocha's posts and don't want her to leave. I don't care what color, what religion, what sexual orientation, or any other descriptive manner in which one would be able to describe her, I simply care about her as a person, and hope she will return. Leaving the board doesn't help one single poster in this thread to "get it." No one here understands what it is like to be me either, or the roads I have crossed to get to this age and this place in my world. Please reconsider, Mocha and others, help us to understand.

Prisonerno6
Member

08-31-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Prisonerno6 a private message Print Post    
While no one has said Richards comments were ok, many people have said to the effect, "They were horrendous, but..."

1. It was only one incident.
2. He was being heckled, so the hecklers got what they were asking for.
3. He is an inexperienced stand-up comedian and didn't know how to handle the hecklers.
4. Other people say things just as bad.
5. Black comedians say just the same thing, so isn't that a double standard?

If the black posters say Richards is a racist, maybe we should just say, "I understand" instead of trying to convince them they're wrong. They *are* the ones who have had to put up with this sort of behavior their entire LIVES, so if they say this is the behavior of a racist, I'm going to believe them, just like I believe my gay friends when they say someone is homophobic and just like I know when someone is sexist. To do otherwise, to try to explain or rationalize or provide any other reason for his behavior trivializes their experiences.

The man didn't just call these men a couple of names. He said 50 years ago they would have been lynched, as if that was a good thing. LYNCHED! None of the other "examples" people have come up with even comes close to saying black men should be killed because they told a white comic he wasn't funny.

Adven
Member

02-06-2001

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Adven a private message Print Post    
Ironically, racism is often about labelling people, yet if we don't condemn Richards with the same total conviction as others or we want to discuss the underlying reasons behind his behavior, we are somehow justifying it.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Maris a private message Print Post    
I never forgot Jessie Jackson saying Hymie Town and it goes to who he is as well. He is an antisemite because of what he said.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 7:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
ITA what HUK said 100%. ((((((Mocha))))))

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
Prisoner, I understand what you are saying but in wanting others to just stand back and saying "I understand" is denying them the equal right to express their opinion. Obviously, some don't understand or agree.

Again, with the disclaimer that I am not trying to minimize the severity of the words, it bothers me that people are so eager to put labels on everyone, with racist and homophobe being the favorites. There are people who want to see more from Richards than the apology he has already given, but then anything he does is going to be labelled as sucking up. So, no matter what he does, he's screwed. If one can't ever forgive him, that's their prerogative but remember that in doing so you are still giving the situation power.

I had a situation come up on Wednesday that is still bothering me a great deal. Travis and I went to the store and I stopped to allow a woman and her child that were coming out to cross in front of me. She's walking at a turtle's pace and is looking at me saying "you better stop". I could not have been more stopped if I had killed the engine and I mouthed that I was stopped. As she walks close to my door she looks at me and says "B----h." Out of nowhere I heard myself saying it back to her. In the next instant, I realize my son is looking at me and all I could do was apologize to him and tell him that I behaved badly. Then I remembered this discussion.

The reason I am telling this story is that while I have called people names in my head or behind their backs, I have never ever called a person a name to their face. I don't know where it came from because I wasn't in a bad mood and I am still feeling ashamed for it and wish I could apologize to her for my behavior. I'm really hoping that this woman who I choose to believe was just having a bad day chose to think the same thing about me instead of labelling me as a b----h.

I do feel we have made some progress. Who would have ever thought Kar and Adven would agree on anything.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Friday, November 24, 2006 - 8:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
If the black posters say Richards is a racist, maybe we should just say, "I understand" instead of trying to convince them they're wrong.

So....all the people complaining about Rosie O'Donnell calling Kelli Ripa's comments "homophobic" should ALSO accept that statement. People are busy trying to condemn Rosie for assessing the situation the way SHE did. Same thing, no?



Leaving the board doesn't help one single poster in this thread to "get it."

That was what I was trying to say. I didn't know WHY I was coming across as bigoted, when I would NEVER think that way. I would rather be seen as IGNORANT (in the true dictionary meaning), and be helped to learn.


Prisonerno6 - Thank you for breaking down why we may be offending people with our posts, in a succinct list. It helped me understand just a tiny bit more, and helps me be conscious of how even some of the smallest comments can be misconstrued.

Again, my apologies to those who are hurt. That would NEVER EVER be my intention in participating here.