Author |
Message |
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:41 am
Dear Abby Today at church there was a family of four sitting in the pew in front of us. A mom, dad, girl about 5 and boy about 2. The 2 year old was being two, kinda squirmy, but nothing too obnoxious. The mom was being really rather "mean" to him. Not outright hitting him, but hurting him physically nonetheless. (ie grabbing his arm, smacking his butt, etc. And he would cry out.) The mom had no patience. The little boy wanted hugs and attention from her. She kept scolding him or "lightly" hurting him, in effort to get him to "behave." At one point someone in our pew leaned over to her and said "Please stop. You are being mean to him." Was that out of line? My dh and I have differing opinions. I wanted to high five the lady who said something and my dh said it was out of line. By the way, after that she was much "nicer" to him and he did not act out at all. She was holding, kissing, hugging him and was getting the attention he wanted.
|
Hukdonreality
Member
09-29-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:46 am
Out of line, IMO. If the person had asked if she could take her child out into the hallway, I think that would have gotten the point across just as well, without being (sort of) offensive.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:50 am
Well, I was kinda thinking that too, but that would have gotten the WRONG point across. That point would have been that the kid was disturbing people, when it was the mom's behavior that was way way more disturbing that the boy's.
|
Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 1:24 pm
I would have stood up and applauded the woman who asked her to stop. I'm of the belief that if you're acting a certain way in public, you're inviting comments on said behaviour.
|
Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 2:07 pm
Ditto what Karen said.
|
Twiggyish
Member
08-14-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 2:13 pm
Me, too Karen! 1. The mother could have brought small books or crayons for the kids to color. 2. Taken the child to the nursery or outside. It's very hard for a 2 year old to act like an adult and sit quietly. 3. Sit quietly and read to the children or tell them a story. That one works great!
|
Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 4:03 pm
Church is supposed to be a gathering of people in community. Members are encouraged to support each other in living lives that reflect the beliefs of the group. With that in mind, I think it was perfectly acceptable and perhaps even expected that someone would say something to the mom to give her some perspective on how she was handling the 2-year-old's behavior. I don't have kids, but I can understand how it could be difficult to be a parent in this situation. You want the child to be 'good' and not distract you or others from what you're there for. At the same time, you don't want to be mean or overbearing. SOmetimes it's hard to realize where the tipping point is. A gentle reminder from another parishoner seems to have given the (possibly harried) mom some needed perspective. And yes, if the child is too unruly, then taking them outside is appropriate, IMHO. In our church, the younger kids aren't expected to sit through the whole service. They stay during the initial music and some sharing of joys and concerns and then there's a short children's time with a lesson just for them and they go downstairs to Sunday school before the main sermon. That alleviates a lot of the stress on parents of young ones. We also have a basket of "worship buddies" (small stuffed animals) along with crayons and coloring books for the kids to use while they're in service.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 4:15 pm
In my former church, when a child was unruly, and the pastors would notice - they would always make a joke about it and then say something to the parent like "no worries, we're all glad you and your child are here today, in whatever mood you are in". I think the woman who spoke up was brave and right on. Sometimes people have this old tape running in their heads that children should be quiet in church, and they desparately try to stop them from being children without realizing that they are behaving badly themselves. Church is a place of community, where people are expected to talk to each other about issues. Why is that if people were upset about how the child was behaving they should speak up and say take the child out; but if they are upset about the way the adult is behaving, they should be quiet? That's not what church is about at all.
|
Rosie
Member
11-12-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 4:27 pm
Doesn't this church have a nursery and Sunday School? It is unreasonable to expect a 2 year old to sit quietly - the 5 year old too. Yay for whoever told the mom to knock it off.
|
Hukdonreality
Member
09-29-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 4:44 pm
As a mandated reporter for suspected child abuse (therapist in a preschool), I have no choice but to report it to the registry. I have seen and reported plenty during my career. Discipline and child abuse are quite different, and discipline is really none of my business. When it crosses the line, it is a very different situation. I can only speak for myself, but I didn't read "alarm" into Julie's initial posting, so I would just opt to be quiet. If Julie had said, "oh, it was horrible the way she was hitting that child!" or anything of that nature, I'd feel completely the opposite of the way I do. I support anyone else's right to say something, but I also know there are a lot of people out there who do not know how to parent. Such a simple thing as taking the child outside or having them spend the service in a daycare would have prevented the entire thing. Teaching is a powerful tool and I try not to miss a chance to do it.
|
Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 4:59 pm
"but hurting him physically nonetheless" Yup. Applause to the woman who told the mother she was being mean. No 2 year old deserves to be hurt physically. They aren't capable of suppressing their urges and actions yet.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:07 pm
No one suggested that the woman be reported for abuse. However, it was quite obvious apparently that her "discipline", such as it was, wasn't working. It was just upsetting the child more, and causing the child to act out more. And when she was asked to curtail her behavior, it apparently woke her up to that fact, she behaved differently, and things went better. The net outcome was clearly positive for everyone. Frankly, I see nothing wrong in saying something to the parent, and no differently than shushing someone in a theater, or asking them to put away their cell phones. If an adult's behavior is disturbing me, I'm quite comfortable in politely and in a friendly way, asking them to stop. I think we should feel all the more free to do so in church.
|
Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:10 pm
I think the person was out of line.
|
Hukdonreality
Member
09-29-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:12 pm
IMO, it's getting to be a scarier and scarier world if parents can not grab their child's arm or swat their butt without others intervening. Again, and for the final time, having worked in a preschool for 15 years, I can attest to the fact that a child will cry out whether they're being hurt or just being redirected. My mother and father would both be reported to the New York State registry for child abuse today for how they disciplined us. She would pinch the hell out of our ears if we acted up in church...and yes, we'd yell out. Then, we would behave.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:24 pm
As I said, no one called it abuse. It was annoying and disturbing behavior by the mother that took away from other people's ability to focus on the service. If you go back a bit in time, to when we were kids, it was never a surprise at all in a community for someone to gently point out to someone else that their behavior was inappropriate. That's what the word "community" means. IMO, we've gotten so far away from community, that we feel like nothing is anyone else's business, and it's only made us all more isolated. ETA: Heck, in my church, we're so 'communal' we don't hesitate to pass the kids around to each other, especially the babies. And no one would hesitate to say to another parent, "hey, Mary (or whomever), he's okay. Really. We're glad you're here."
|
Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:36 pm
"hey, Mary (or whomever), he's okay. Really. We're glad you're here." That isnt what the woman said. The woman told mother to stop and she was mean. Totally different scene and certainly not a supportive statement.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:43 pm
According to Julie, she said "please stop. You're being mean." Using the word please makes it a request, not an order. She did not tell her to stop. And the woman stopped! And the child started behaving better! Of course, we don't know tone of voice here at all, which does make a difference as well. Tone of voice might have been quite supportive... or not. At any rate, it caused the woman to reflect on her parenting and it worked. Not everyone is eloquent at a moment of discomfort and awkwardness, but if it worked, and apparently worked for the mom and the 2 year old also, I'd say that says it all. Outcome matters.
|
Hukdonreality
Member
09-29-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:44 pm
Kar, you're right, nobody said it was abuse. I'm not sure why this has come up twice. My posts simply said that if it WAS abuse, then I would report it. If it WASN'T abuse, I'd shut my mouth. I still think it was incredibly out of line for one person to tell a parent that they were being mean to their child.
|
Hukdonreality
Member
09-29-2003
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:45 pm
Outcome does matter, but it also may have devastated that parent. How humiliating was that comment?
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:56 pm
I don't know, Hukd, if I was humiliated, I would probably leave. And humiliated people don't usually start being kind and loving to their kids either. They usually get all snarly, not warm and squishy. As was noted, it was a church, and in a church (I think) people are called to be *neighbors* and part of a community. We are our brother's keeper. It may not have been the best way to say it, but it's a different atmosphere than say MacDonald's, where it probably would have been inappropriate. Any kind of comment might have been humiliating, but likely the parent was already feeling embarrassed at the behavior of their child. That's why folks try to so hard to quiet their children in church, because they are afraid of what others think. I doubt the parent was 'devastated' that seems like a strong word. Why should anyone be devastated over what someone else thinks? A little embarrassed perhaps, but devastated and humiliated?
|
Chiliwilli
Member
09-04-2006
| Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 5:59 pm
Not seeing it myself, it's hard to judge but I'd have to applaud someone saying something to get her to stop. From the description of the mother's behavior, I have to wonder how she disciplines at home where no one is watching. During the Sunday sermon church is not the place for a two year old and every church I've ever gone to has had a nice nursery for children that age to play in during services. If you're not comfortable leaving your child with someone you don't know then they've always welcomed parents to hang out in the nursery if they choose to check it out. Some even have speakers in them to hear the sermon.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Monday, January 15, 2007 - 5:20 am
Also, it should be noted (for those familiar with the kiss of peace) that during that time (when you shake hands with those near you), that the mom did turn around and offer her hand to the person who said something. The mom had a look on her face like she was smelling something bad, but she was the one who turned back (during this part of the mass, the person in the pew in front really has more "control" than the one behind, cuz you can turn behind you only if you want. Hope this side note makes sense) and offered her hand. The dad shook hands with her too.
|
Zachsmom
Member
07-13-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:06 am
The other woman should have minded her own business. AFTER the service she could have came up privately to ask if everything was okay and could she help. In no way in this situation should she have embarrassed the other mother. I am curious as to why the church doesn't have a place for children to go during the service? Expecting a child to sit quietly for an hour or more is wrong and leads to situations just like this.
|
Rissa
Member
03-20-2006
| Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:46 am
This just happened to me the other day. I was in a store with my kids and my 15 year old grabbed my arm and pointed out a woman with a screaming preschooler. She told me the boy tried to climb into the cart and the mom had smacked him on the face. I HATE confrontations but I couldn't ignore it once my child had seen and was upset. So the way I handled it was that I went up the woman and said "Excuse me, I am sorry to intrude but I was wondering if I could be of any assistance? You seem a little frustrated." She blew me off which I knew she would but she now knew that I was aware which was what I wanted. To me the woman in the church was right to say something but shouldn't have gone on the attack. I always worry that if you further tick off frustrated/angry people that they will take it out on thier kids once in private. Just like kids need redirecting, IMHO this mother needed redirection. LOL
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2007 - 11:34 am
Rissa, I took care of your double post for you. Zmom, our church has a place to go for children, as most do. Sometimes, the children stay for one part of the service, then the children's sermon, then they go off to the nursery or preschool/Sunday school. But frequently, some parents keep their children with them during the entire service. Some of them attend infrequently, and thus their children, esp the younger ones, wouldn't be comfortable in a new place with all strangers. My son was never comfortable with the Sunday school or nursery. He was just a clingy kid, and I wasn't going to put him or the volunteers through it. They couldn't get anything done with a child who just cried the whole time. So I kept him with me. We always sat way in the back, so he could wander a bit if need be. I brought things for him to do, but he was never quite the sit and work on something kind of child. At 12, he still isn't very good at that. Rissa, I agree with you, the mom needed redirecting. As I said, I think it might have been done in a more gentle way, but it was quite clear that what she was doing wasn't working, and it was uncomfortable for those around her to watch. Even if it wasn't the best way to speak to her, it did work. I remember being in California Adventure with my son a few years ago, and as we entered the park, we passed a group of adults with one young child. As we passed, the mother literally slammed her approx 3 year old daughter into her stroller, the child was screaming and crying. The other adults were pretending not to notice. My son looked at me in horror, and there went any ability I had to just walk on by. So rather than confront the woman directly, I said to the other adults, "can't you see this woman needs some assistance. Maybe some of the rest of you could step in, since she's reached the limits of her coping ability!" Immediately, the man whom I guess was the father picked up the child, and an older woman went over to the mom and started speaking to her quietly. I just really don't understand this whole mindset of "mind your own business". As has been said, it takes a village to raise a child. They are ALL our children, and we have a responsibility to step in when someone is struggling. JMO.
|
|