Author |
Message |
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 9:00 am
Good point!
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 9:39 am
I think there is a big difference between respecting someone's opinion ... and respecting their RIGHT to have a different opinion. Two very different things. Kar...love your posts.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 9:45 am
Thanks, Kearie! The feeling is mutual! NT, I also wanted to say that I absolutely agreed with this comment by you:
quote: Your son knows how you feel about the war, but he needs to know that your love for him is stronger than your hate for the war.
Very well said!
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 9:56 am
Kearie, ITA with your statement regarding respect. Thanks, Kar. I think there have been some wonderful posts here by everyone. Jimmer, relax. I think it's pretty safe to say that no one thinks you condone terrorism.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 10:20 am
LOL - Thanks NT! I also agree with Kar that that was a very nice way of putting it. While I think they are two different things, I think it is important that Newman's son knows that. I also agree with Kearie that there is a difference between respecting someone's opinion and respecting their right to have a different opinion. (My we are agreeable!) I also think that it is okay to try to convince someone to change their opinion, if you do it in a respectful non-antagonistic way.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 10:53 am
Jimmer, but doesn't there come a point where it is best for the relationship to just agree to disagree on that subject...and move on to focus on more positive things? If all you focus on is trying to get the other to change their opinion ... isn't that disrespectful to the relationship. If every conversation ArReal and I had was about my disagreeing with her WANTING to go to Iraq ... and me trying to convince her she was wrong, I truly wouldn't be suprised if she went just to get away from me. My daughter is much more than that one opinion and focusing on other things other than that opinion is important. Sometimes we talked about it, and other times we didn't. She wanted to go to help the women and children of Iraq. She believes in freedom. I can respect that completely. I understood why she wanted to go ... and she understood why I didn't want her to go. I quit trying to convince her and instead lovingly brought up my concern for her and her well being. Six months later she changed her mind about going to war and began posting anti-war comics on her computer at work. Imagine the crap she took from her Marine co-workers. I was so relieved she changed her mind. I was thrilled that she got out of the Marines after a year and a half. Others would call her a coward and a traitor to the Marines. Who's right is a matter of opinion. In both cases I'm proud of her for standing up for what she believes. She has guts and she fights for what she thinks is right...ALWAYS. I value that in a person.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:10 am
DogDoc, I loved your post and I agree with everything you said. I would rather die for a reason also...a cause. Just curious if others have taken ancient philosophy classes? I remember shortly after taking my first one, my whole way of thinking and understanding things improved. I think it was because to do well in the class, you had to understand why their crazy ideas made sense to them. You had to understand the logic behind their thoughts even when you disagreed. It's probably just me...
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:28 am
In both cases I'm proud of her for standing up for what she believes. She has guts and she fights for what she thinks is right...ALWAYS. I can see why you are proud of your daughter Kearie. From this and your previous descriptions of her she sounds like a wonderful person. Doesn't what you are saying there though about your respect for her steadfastness, seem to contradict a little of what you were saying earlier about agreeing to disagree? I do agree that aggressively hammering away at someone to change their opinion may have the opposite effect of further entrenching their opinion. You didn't say why you think your daughter changed her mind but it appears that your interaction with her was very effective. Although it may appear to people that their kids aren't listening to them, they may well be listening but just don't want to admit it! So you have to be careful not to overdo it and drive them in the opposite direction. But I still don't think you should tell them that you agree with their opinion if you think they are wrong (and you never did that). To answer your question Kearie, I have studied some philosophy at the University level. It does make you think. I agree with Dogdoc too that it would be better to die for the right cause than by accident, but given a third choice, I'd rather not die any sooner than I have to!
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:01 pm
Jimmer... "Doesn't what you are saying there though about your respect for her steadfastness, seem to contradict a little of what you were saying earlier about agreeing to disagree?" How so? I never said I agree with her decision... nor did I say she was right or wrong in her decision. Her focus for going to Iraq was on helping women and children. That's nobel. My focus was on her safety and my opinion that the war is illegal. Valid points also. Our focus was different. She focused on helping and spreading freedom. She didn't focus on killing and revenge or the right and wrong of the war itself. Those are things I focused on ... along with her safety and emotional well being. I trust that my daughter is capable of making decisions for herself. That's why I raised her for 18 years. I wanted a child that would be strong, think for herself and stand up for herself and her beliefs. Jimmer, she changed her mind after going to Desert training, 2 months before her squad was set to deploy. The excitement other soldiers expressed over "Killing Iraqis" crushed her. Their focus was killing and pride in killing. That went against everything she believed. Every reason she wanted to go to Iraq. She got physically ill, and very depressed. They let her out of the Marines with a less than honorable. (She can turn in paper work now to get it changed to honorable) She got out on 50% disability from the VA. IS she not Marine Material? I don't know. She was promoted in bootcamp for being in the top 10% of her graduating class. In a year and a half she was one month away from E4 status. She was moving up the ranks rapidly. When the Marines made the focus of going to Iraq on killing, her eyes were opened and she couldn't go in good conscious. Her focus was different then the Marines... so again, she stood up for what she believed. That's why she changed her mind. Jimmer, I dreaded my first philosophy class. I actually chose one school over the other because one college, Gonzaga, required two philosophy classes to graduate and Whitworth required one. LOL However once I took that first class, I was hooked. I minored in philosophy. I loved the way the class challenged me to think. Later, I realized just how beneficial those classes were to my understanding of other people and and their values and beliefs. and yadda yadda ya!!!
|
Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 1:12 pm
The person I am closest to that has been in Iraq is an Army doctor. I watched him grow up. He joined the Army so he could get financial help with his medical education.We weren't at war when he joined. He went to Iraq because he was sent, not because he wanted to go.He did his duty there without complaining but he hated seeing the injuries. Now he is stationed in Germany. He may get called back to Iraq and he will go. When I say I support the troops it doesn't mean I support war.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 1:15 pm
Kearie, I think it is wonderful that your daughter changed her mind and decided to leave the Marines. Some people insist that you should always keep a commitment or stick to a decision or promise no matter what. I don't feel that way at all. I think that you should only make a sincere commitment or promise something if you sincerely believe that you will keep your promise. However, if circumstances change and/or you re-evaluate your decision at a later date, I think it is wrong to stay with a decision, simply because you made a commitment. So I congratulate her on a wise choice – changing her mind because she re-evaluated the situation. I think your circumstances with your daughter are a bit different than Newman's with his son. It might be easier for Newman to accept if his son was training for a different task in Iraq, but Newman's son's main role if I understand it correctly will be to risk his life to kill Iraqis, in a war that Newman does not approve of. I was a little nervous about philosophy as well and I had doubts about its applicability and usefulness in real life. But it makes you think and it opens your mind to new (LOL - or should I say old?) ways of thinking that you might not otherwise consider.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:06 pm
" When I say I support the troops it doesn't mean I support war." ~~~ exactly DogDoc. Jimmer, yes I see thing are different between Newman's son and my daughter. ArReal's job was in supply. She would have been in Hummers driving supplies to the front lines and combat areas. Pretty dangerous, but yes, probably less "mass killing". I feel lucky ArReal got out early in her "career", before she became "brainwashed" as Newman calls it. (I agree that it is some form of brainwashing...as the poem I left in his folder indicates) Twelve years is a long time to be a Marine. The USMC becomes family and family ties take second place. That's the way Marines work. I don't think at this point in Newman's son's career, that he is likely to change his mind. He's a thirty year old man who has been a Marine for 12 years. At some point you have to accept his choice...whether you disagree or not. If you don't accept it, eventually the relationship will be hurt. (I worry about this for Newman) I also doubt his son is looking for approval, perhaps he's looking for acceptance from his dad. I think that's more important to most people than approval. And acceptance doesn't mean approval.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:13 pm
I had no idea that Newman's son had already been a Marine for 12 years. For some reason I was under the impression that he had just signed up. I would say that given that, it would be next to impossible to change his mind at this point.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:24 pm
I believe he said his son joined at 18. I also recall him saying his son is 30 now. I did the math. Perhaps his son served and then joined the reserves and volunteer that way. Well Newman...what is it?
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 2:41 pm
I dated a guy in high school who was in the Marines and had just returned home from Vietnam. I remember holding this almost 7 ft. giant while he cried about how all he was expected to do was kill. He never recovered. There is a man at my church who served in the special forces with the Marines. His company was sent to Afghanistan right after 9/11. Their orders were "it it moves, kill it." When they came home, one of the men in his company discovered his wife was having an affair and beat her to death before he killed himself. The whole company was called back for psychological evaluations. My friend had nightmares which he tried to ward of with drugs and alcohol. With the help of church, family and friends, he has been able to overcome his demons. Those are my closest experiences with the Marines. When my stepson made the decision to go into the military, I told him that although his mom and I didn't like it (his dad thought it was great) the decision was his but I asked him to please not even consider the Marines. I don't know how much influence I had, but he chose the Navy. Newman, if your son has been in for 12 years already, it's probably a pretty safe bet that he is 100% Marine and he ain't going to change his mind. Do you know why he chose the field that he did? I would say just let him know that you love him and that you will be waiting for him to come home safe and sound.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 3:44 pm
Marines are just a different breed. NT---my daughter had the same experience as far as the Marines being "gung-ho" about killing indiscriminately. "If it moves, kill it." I think you can see the USMC's attitude towards killing simply by looking at the names they painted on their tanks in Iraq. Classy...(note the sarcasm)
|
Yesitsme
Member
08-24-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 4:36 pm
Gee, this is all simply heartbreaking to think about. I have such strong mixed feelings about war in general that the whole issue is one that basically causes me to mentally be a deer in headlights. On one hand, I am very much against war in general and taking another's life for whatever reason. Still there is the other side of me that has been raised to believe that to protect and defend our country....and the rest of the world where there is injustice and oppression.....is probably one of the highest callings a person could have. But then there is the side that says what goes on in other country's is none of our business. Then I think about things like the harsh treatment of people around the world and once again it all gets murky. While on one hand I can tell Newman to ease up as he deals with his son (because I suspect that a lot of Newman has rubbed off on him and a hard stance may make him dig in his heels just a bit more), another side of me applauds Newman for doing all he can to stop him. I agree that you should never tell him respect his decision if you don't, Newman. That would be flat-out wrong. And you know...I understand now why you can't tell him you respect his right to make this decision. That would be wrong to you, too, wouldn't it? You described your feelings well. My heart really hurts for you right now. As murky as my own mind is when it comes to the war, I completely understand your viewpoint. You know, I think I do believe that war is sometimes necessary, but I have problems with the youth of those that we send. If we must go to war, shouldn't it be us middle-agers....who hopefully have a bit more wisdom and have lived a good part of life? And shouldn't those who make the decisions to send us into war be the first ones to charge the battlefield? I know that for those situations where I feel that war is necessary, I would be willing to do it. But I would also make darned sure that all other avenues had been tried first!
|
Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 5:45 pm
Getting back to talking about how to change another person's opinion, I agree with Kearie that it is usually an event that changes a person's mind. There is a good show called Wife Swap ( Mon. 8:00 ABC). (Not to be confused with Trading Spouses). On Wife Swap they pick totally different families and the wives move into each other's houses. The first week the new wife lives by the house rules. The second week the new wife dictates. One episode was a vegetarian who moved in with a family that had meat at every meal. Another one switched a woman whose husband was a lay mininster with one whose husband ran an atheist radio show. Both families have children. Although each show was different, what changed opinions was not talking but trying the changes the new wives instituted. It is worth watching.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:08 pm
Dog, I think I've seen that show once or twice or one similar. One where the wife got home and the hubbie said...we aren't doing it you're way anymore. Good show. People can always change, if they are willing to look at themselves, see the problem and focus on changing it. Problem is, many people don't want to look at themselves and see a problem. It's easier to focus on others' problems than look at your own personal issues. Lots of finger pointing, blame and "You! You! You!" does not make for any kind of growth.
|
Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:15 pm
You are a very wise and smart little lady, Kearie!
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:34 pm
I've messed up a lot. Made many mistakes, and have gone through many changes. Wisdom comes from trial and error and growth. Not sure I'm wise, but I've had many oppertunities to change my behaviors and thought processes. I find you very wise too Baby. Many people here are wise...and I like when we can share with each other. Maybe we can all get wiser by seeing ourselves more clearly...by listening and sharing.
|
Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:31 pm
Thanks Kearie, I appreciate that.
|
Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:29 pm
My son joined for 6 years out of high school, then went into the Marine Reserves after that. So he has experienced a great deal of civilian life. Approval vs. acceptance. That's an interesting word play discussion. I think kids always want their parents approval. Well, he's not gonna get it this time. Acceptance? Do I have a choice? I have to accept his decision. There's a difference between the grunt Marine, like NT was describing above, and others like what Kearie's daughter was going to do. My son was in avionics, which according to his description was fixing airplanes or helicopters (mechanic type stuff). Now he's switching to artillery which is directly about killing other human beings. Kearie you're lucky she didn't go. I think those supply trucks, in those convoys, those are the ones that get blown up by the IEDs or roadside bombs. That's where I worry most about my son, driving up and down the roads in Iraq. We are hated there. We are the enemy. The infidel. PBS is showing something about Richard the Lionhearted right now (but I'm watching the Idol) and his crusdade against the Muslims who took Jerusalem from the Christians way back when.
|
Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:54 pm
Here's what has me shaking my head. At church on Easter Sunday, a young father (two kids under age 10) stood up during the "joys" section and said he was going into the Army on Monday. Then I get the joys and concerns list in the email and it says he "will be shipping out to South Carolina for basic training on July 24th. He will be gone for six years." Now with just that much information, most of you are probably shaking your heads and wondering why a father of two very young children would be taking this step. As they say in the infomercials, but wait! There's more! After 9/11, this man's wife felt compelled to join the Army. She exceeded their weight limits, so she set about losing the excess. When she got down far enough, she joyfully enlisted. Not long after, she shipped out to South Carolina for training, leaving her two young children with her husband. She struggled during boot camp. I'm not sure if it was the physical demands or the mental ones, but she was 'held back' (whatever term the Army uses for it) and ended up being there without a visit home for almost a year before they finally washed her out of the service. She's been back for almost two years now. So first, these young kids were without mom for about a year, during which time dad provided for their every need. They are very close to him. Now, he's going away and potentially won't be around until they are teenagers. I'm sorry, but it breaks my heart to see what these parents are putting those kids through. I understand their desire to want to "give back" to our country, but I just don't get why they can't see that the best way to do that is to raise those two beautiful kids to care about what happens here and make a difference. Why not spend time building homes for Habitat for Humanity or working at the Veteran's Hospital or any number of other things that would help in ways that would allow them to keep their family intact? I just don't get it! Now for the next six years, we'll be getting prayer requests to keep this young man safe and so on while we watch those kids grow up without him in their lives.

|
Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 7:57 pm
We are the invading infidel. The foreign occupiers. They had more electricity, for example, when Saddam was in charge. I could go on and on but what's the point. My purpose here isn't to change any minds about the war. Try to think of any time someone ever pursuaded you, or got you to change your mind on something important. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good example myself. I don't plan on harping on the war with my son. No point in that. That's the sad part about life...when you realize you have very little control over anything. Something Cnd said in the last archive. And Karuuna said something about my need to be right. Don't we all want to be right? I don't deliberately go out determined to do something wrong! To think wrong or act wrong, drive wrong, select wrong fruit, etc. Who wakes up and says, "I want to be wrong today." It sounds like Cnd's Dad was hard headed, very opinionated, and I was going to joke that it doesn't sound like anyone I know. I don't see why it's wrong to have strong opinions. I don't have THEM about everything, just things I'm passionate about.
|
|
|
|