Author |
Message |
Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:56 pm
For those of us who don't have faith, never had faith, and have no desire to have faith, having someone say "God is talking to you but you just aren't ready to listen" seems a bit patronizing to me. I don't think Newman's seeming unhappiness or self-searching has anything to do with lack of faith. It's about dealing with changes in your life and the difficulty most of us have in adapting to change and figuring out what we really want to do. My child is still young so I'm not "there" yet. I'm still wrapped up in being a mommy, which I absolutely love. But I do wonder what I'll do with myself when I'm an empty nester since I'm not married and probably never will be. That's why this thread has been so interesting to me.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:01 pm
Hmm well it wasn't meant to be either. But it is true like with anything if you aren't ready to hear it you won't.
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:14 pm
I can agree that it can be hard to hear some things if you aren’t trying to listen for them. What is extremely frustrating to me is that I think that I am trying my best to listen but it doesn’t seem to be working so far. You see I think (contrary to what you suggested) that I am ready to listen. Thank you for the book recommendation Mocha. I looked at the link, it looks interesting and it certainly received some positive reviews. In the more immediate sense, I appreciate people taking the time to express their personal views on this. It is a subject that I care about.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:21 pm
Jimmer I think in this instance this is something that someone else can't really lead you in. Well unless you're a minister and I'm far from that lol.
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Grannyg
Member
05-28-2002
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:27 pm
Jimmer, let me ask you a question. When you go to sit down in a chair, do you question whether that chair will hold you up or do you just sit down and HOPE it holds you up, or do you just sit down without ever even thinking whether that chair will hold you up? I have to leave the house for a while, I'll be back about 5:30 central time. After you think about that question, and really sincerely think about that question, I'll give you my answer when I get back.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:30 pm
I do find that people's feelings get hurt easily on the internet, mine included, sometimes. It's the nature of the medium. The writing can seem harsh, when it is not meant to. You don't get to hear voice inflection, raised eyebrow, the chuckle. Might miss the sarcasm, etc. I agree with the sentiments of Jimmer and Brenda. I didn't see the patronizing. It doesn't help to say that God will reveal Himself to you when YOU'RE ready. Kearie, yes, I would attibute that to luck, not God. Again, I go back to Columbine and Katrina. Those people were praying too. Why does God save your daughter but not the kids at Columbine. Jimmer supplies the answer. What kind of plan is it that I can't understand? Why should Jane live and Judy die? They were both good people. It makes no sense. Why bother praying? If God will's it, then your daughter is saved. If He doesn't, well, then she isn't. It has nothing to do with fairness, justice, right or wrong, the quality of your prayer, how good a life you've led. Nothing. It all depends on God's plan which we are not smart enough to understand? I was made in God's image. I should be able to understand his plan, shouldn't I? If I try hard enough? If I sit in meditation quietly enough. If I ask the right questions and listen carefully to the answers...
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:34 pm
quote:I was made in God's image. I should be able to understand his plan, shouldn't I?
Not necessarily.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:41 pm
Mocha, I clicked on the link and found the book, Finding Faith by Brian McLaren. I glanced at all the info, seemed more interesting when Bob Dylan, Jewel, and Alanis Morissette were mentioned and less so when Dr. Laura was. Maybe I can get the book on tape at the library.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:45 pm
I also found this interesting site, link Lol Newman I'm not a Dr Laura fan.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:46 pm
Granny, I expect the chair to hold me up. And it almost always does but I'm sure that we have all experienced a time or two where the chair collapsed! So what's the point? I have a lot more faith in the chair than I do that there's a god. Mocha, does anyone understand God's plan? Why do we assume that he has a plan? There is a radio talker in Denver, Peter Boyles, and he was explaining 3 types of belief in God. I've said this before. What if God created the world, and then just stepped back, gave free will to everyone, and stepped back. He will not interfere or intervene. Period. He created the world and that was that. I think that is a perfectly fair view of God.
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Darrellh
Member
07-21-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:52 pm
I find Religion is an argument no one can win. Most people you discuss it with don't listen. They simply wait for you to stop talking so they can tell you "The Truth". I'm a deacon at my church, but I don't go around telling everyone that they are wrong and I'm right. (one of my co-workers did this to me before. She sat and told me exactly who was and was not going to hell.)
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:53 pm
Do you go to church? I'm just curious. Yes God did create us with free will and yes I do believe He has a plan and that me being just human wouldn't fully understand. But when I meet Him and find out the plan then I'll let you know. 
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Cndeariso
Member
06-28-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:57 pm
i believe in God. so, why should i need to know if he/she/it has a plan and what it is? i don't need to know if my next door neighbor has a plan or what it is. it is none of my business.
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 1:57 pm
Jimmer, let me ask you a question. When you go to sit down in a chair, do you question whether that chair will hold you up or do you just sit down and HOPE it holds you up, or do you just sit down without ever even thinking whether that chair will hold you up? I never even think about it (unless the chair looks rickety). I think I see where you may be heading with this. Looking forward to your comments.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:11 pm
I so agree with Jimmer. You can't explain Faith. It is interesting why some people have it and some don't but how do you explain why some do and some don't? Kearie, my scientific mind won't allow me to believe in a fairy tale. The Santa story and the Tooth Fairy are nice sentiments but they are not real. For me to believe in God, well, I would have to think He was real. I wanna get back to something Jimmer said. Why would God reject you just because you don't believe in Him? If He is all knowing, then He certainly understands why I don't believe in Him. I'm not rejecting the big guy I just want some scientific proof. Is that so wrong? Kearie, being trapped at that Fundamentalist Christian party sounds like a nightmare. Or, with enough alcohol maybe I could have enjoyed the moment. Nah...I simply can't relate to Fundamentalists be they Christian or Muslim.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:13 pm
You know, Cnd, I don't think I have ever in my life have said "it's none of my business." I'm here on earth. I want to know. I'm curious about life. It all seems like my business to me 
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:15 pm
Yeah I bet you don't say that Newman lol.
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Tishala
Member
08-01-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:20 pm
LOL Mocha!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:21 pm
Part of the problem for me in these kinds of discussions is that many people talk about God as we have all the same kind of understanding about just what that term means. Mostly, it seems to me that people speak about God as some kind of supra-entity that exists independently of all of us, in some other kind of state than we exist. If I were asked "Do you believe in God", I would unequivocably say yes. But if I were asked if I believe in God (referred to as He) as some kind of divine person who picks and chooses the people He likes based on their behavior, and picks and chooses which prayers to grant, I'd have to say "are you kidding"? My faith does not hinge on a God who is pleased or displeased by my ridiculously human behavior, nor is it in a male-oriented super being who decides my fate. Nor does my faith require scientific proof. There are many ways of knowing besides science, and I do not worship science as the be-all-end-all superiority any more than some modelled-after-human-beings kind of God.
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Rabbit
Animoderator
08-12-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:41 pm
Karuuna, interesting as to what you think God isn't. Could you share what you believe God is? Humanoid? Energy? Metaphysical? Leporidae?
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 2:47 pm
You either have faith or you don't. Either way, you have a hard time understanding how people on the other side, if you will, can possibly feel that way. That's just the way it is. And you've got to admit it gives us some interesting things to talk about! Some of the questions posed here bring me back to the story of the man in the flood (not Noah). Basically, the town is going to flood and warnings go out. The man's neighbors are evacuating and tell him, "Come with us to safety." He smiles and says, "The Lord will provide!" The water rises and the man retreats to the second story of his home. Some people come by in a boat and urge him to get on board. He replies, "No, the Lord will provide!" so they leave. The water continues to rise and soon he's on the rooftop. A helicopter comes over and drops him a line, but he refuses it, again saying, "The Lord will provide!" Eventually the waters rise so high that there is nowhere to retreat and the man drowns. When he reaches heaven, he prevails upon the Lord, "Why didn't you save me? I had such faith in you when others did not!" The Lord looks at him and shakes his head, saying, "And just what do you think I was doing? I sent evacuation notices, a boat, a helicopter, and you refused them all!" See, you can choose to look at things as occurring for a reason -- even if you don't see the reason -- or you can choose to see them as just things that happen. You can choose to believe that God intervened and saved the girl in the overturned car or you can choose to believe that it was luck. The glass is either half empty or half full -- it's all in how you choose to perceive it. Really, everything happens. Period. Some of us see a larger force at work in it and some of us don't. Is one right and one wrong? Does it really matter? In the end, this physical plane of existence will cease and something else will occur -- or it won't. "Whatever gets you through the night. It's all right. It's all right."

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Mameblanche
Member
04-13-2005
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 3:08 pm
This thread is really starting to get 'bristly'. I don't know if I am all that comfortable, but it sure is an interesting discussion. Unless I am mistaken, isn't there is supposed to be a sense of humility and/or humbleness associated with living a religeous life. But it does get lost in the day to day translation. I find that some people feel that by going to Church/Synagogue/Kingdom Hall/Mosque/ETC., regularly and labelling themselves born again, or whatever they think that they have won the golden ticket to sail through life floating above others who are living lives they feel are devalued compared to theirs. I find that really sad, and extremely destructive. One thing I do BELIEVE in is that no matter what your faith or lack of it, it is YOUR personal choice and YOUR personal belief. I respect that, but why can't some people just leave it at that. If I find a restaurant that I think is awesome, I'm certainly going to pass that info along, rather enthusiastically I might add. But if you don't like that type of food or find it doesn't fit your wallet, or your interest. Fine by me. I know you will find your sustenance somewhere else, and I hope you enjoy it wherever you find it. But I certainly won't think less of you because of it. And you never know, you might want to tell me about your type of restaurant that you enjoy, and frankly it might not suit me, but hey, its nice to know all the different choices there are in the world. Something for everyone. And yes, some people don't go out to restaurants, either they can't afford to, or they just don't like to bother for their own reasons. Fine by me too. Its not my business, beyond the polite conventions. Its really not my business at all. We all have to live our lives to the best of our abilities. If we make dreadful choices that affect society, there should be consequences, like jail, etc. But otherwise, where I choose to dine or not dine, beyond polite conversation is nobody's business, and has no bearing on anyone's life but my own. Everyone has to choose what and where they eat to live/survive. But its a personal choice. It's a basic live or die choice. You don't eat you will not survive very long. So you have to make these choices. With religion and spirituality, and the lack thereof, its all about live and let live PERSONAL choices. I am of the school that just wants everyone to get along. Everyone. I find this stuff so painfully divisive.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 3:23 pm
First of all, I believe that God is EVERYWHERE. Even if you say he isn't with you, he is. Every day you pass people on the street. Do you notice all of them? Probably not, you have things to do, places to go, get on with life, etc. Hell, who doesn't? Those people are invisible to you as God is if you don't acknowlege him as a presence in your life. Every facet of your life, if you look, God is visble. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it, then it's easy to say Why isn't God with me? Look at the face of your child, the blessings you have been given. If you don't have faith, start a gratitude notebook. Each day something happens that you can be greatful for, regardless of how bad your day is. There is another book which has either gotten great reviews of bad reviews. Some folks here on this board have criticized it. It's by Rick Warren and it's called "The Purpose Driven Life". As with each book you read, no one expects you to swallow everything that you read, but it has some wonderful tips and examples and passages that might help straighten things out in your mind. I know I gained some very very insightful things and it helped me to overcome certain things and get over certain things and make sense of certain things. I learned to not be so "me me me me" and how is god helping me to be "right there with him" if I want to be. Also, I honestly believe that God allows bad things to happen to shape our hearts and lives the way they are supposed to be as part of the grander scheme of things. Also, we are never given more than we can handle. Also, if there was no bad in this world, then we would never know to appreciate the good. And God answers all prayers, sometimes he answers them by not answering them at all.
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Grannyg
Member
05-28-2002
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 4:54 pm
Jimmer, you answered exactly like I thought you would. You never even think about it, you just sit down on it. That chair has always held you up and you expect it to do it again. Because you have tried that chair and it always did what it was suppose to do. It's not suppose to open a door, cook a meal, the only job that chair has is to hold you up when you sit down on it. Whether you realize it or not, that is faith. It does what it is suppose to do. Never too much and never too little. You excercise faith every day. In lots and lots of ways you never even thought about. You have faith that the sun is gonna come up again tomorrow, or that it is gonna rain. You know that it is gonna do one of those two things because it always does. You have faith that when you go to sleep tonight, you will wake up in the morning. Now if you don't wake up in the morning does that mean you don't have faith? No, cause you had no idea you were gonna die tonight. But when you went to bed you felt confident that you were gonna wake up. Whether you wake up or not is not the point. The point is what do you feel when you go to sleep? Is there faith there? Maybe you don't care whether you wake up or not. One way or the other doesn't make any difference. But do you really feel that way? Have you made plans for tomorrow? Made an appointment with someone, told someone you would call them, told your fellow workers you would "see" them tomorrow? Why did you tell them that? Cause you have faith that you are gonna wake up tomorrow and do those things you have planned to do. You get in your car and put the key in the ignition. If you have the wrong key, it will not fit in the ignition. And that car isn't going any where but when you put the right key in and turn it, the car cranks up and you go where ever you want to go. How do you that the car is gonna crank? Because it cranked yesterday? These are things you never think about, you just go about your day and never give any of these things a thought. But every time you are excercising faith. So don't say you don't have faith cause you do. What else would you call it? Don't try to make faith something that's it not. Faith is believing in something that can't be seen. You don't know how the chair holds you up, it just does. You don't know what makes the key turn on the car, it just does. You don't know why you wake every morning, you just do. You are not a chair builder so you don't know how that chair does what it is suppose to do. You are not a mechanic so you don't know why the car cranks. You wake up and don't know why? You just accept things cause that's the way it is. Well so is faith. It's just that way. I'll make you a deal. Tomorrow, try questioning every thing you do. When you wake up, find out why you woke up. Is there somehthing you have to do today? Why? When you sit on that chair, question why you sat there and the chair didn't break. When you crank your car, question that and see why that dang thang cranked one more time. I think you will find that questioning every thing is fruitless. And a tad boring. So then you will have to excercise faith that everything is gonna do exactly what it is suppose to do. Remember faith is believing and not seeing. I do not argue religion. I do not debate religion. I have read this thread and stayed away from posting. But Jimmer, there was something about your post that made me post. I don't know what but I just want you to see that you really do have faith and that you use it everyday. Whether you realize it or not. Sometimes just realizing something makes lots of other things clear.
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Dahli
Member
11-27-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 5:10 pm
Amen Mame = very very well said....I'm going to share that analogy with my very sweet but pushy sister LOL!! talks the talk but she forgets the walk!
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