TVCH FORUMS HOME . JOIN . FAN CLUBS . ABOUT US . CONTACT . CHAT  
Bomis   Quick Links   TOPICS . TREE-VIEW . SEARCH . HELP! . NEWS . PROFILE
Archive through February 27, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussion ARCHIVES: 2006 Mar. ~ 2006 May: Baby Boomers, Living Alone, Changing Habits (ARCHIVES): Archive through February 27, 2006 users admin

Author Message
Max
Moderator

08-12-2000

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Max a private message Print Post    
Some women I know could care less about sex. Others of us would love to have good quality sex as frequently as possible. (BTW, you can put 'men' in that sentence and it's also true.) :-)

And, of course, there are all kinds of people at all kinds of places in the spectrum between those two extremes.

The trick is finding someone who feels the same way as you do about it -- whatever that feeling is. :-)

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wendo a private message Print Post    
Where did anyone write that Newman's views about sex were wrong? I wrote that I disagreed with the general statement that "men enjoy sex more than women". In fact, I would say that many women would disagree with such comment.

Personally speaking, I find it offensive and here's why. Making a general statement that "men enjoy sex more than women" makes women inferior. That they somehow are incapable of enjoying sex the way that men do. It places women in a second class position. Add the comment that there would be more sex going on if women did enjoy sex like men only adds insult to injury. It's a subtle way of knocking women down; that if only women enjoyed sex like men do then things would be better.

Further, you'll note that I did not say "wrong, women enjoy sex more than men." In fact, I didn't take any position because how one enjoys sex is going to be different for each individual; I wouldn't presume to make such a statement either way. However, I do take exception when one makes a blanket generalization about how women don't enjoy sex like men. And, I take exception to it as a woman because it's a blanket statement about me.

IMO, making such blanket statements is what enables stereotypes about men and women to continue.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Well, typically if you find a person's comments offensive, it isn't because you agree with them--more often than not it's offensive because you disagree with them.

My point was to say that for each of us, our beliefs are true for ourselves because of what we experience.

Generalizations are just that--generalizations. I see every day where behaviors perpetuate stereotypes for both genders. there lies the problem--those who give validity to the negatives within each of us.

Max
Moderator

08-12-2000

Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 11:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Max a private message Print Post    
Ah, but only if you think sexual desire equals power. If you view the "need" for sex as something that makes one weaker (because it's harder to think straight or whatever) then it's a completely different matter, isn't it?

There's a really good book called Egalia's Daughters that reverses all the sexual roles and challenges you to "think outside the box" about gender-based assumptions. In the book, the women are the superior sex.

Generalizations abound in our lives and many exist because there is some truth to the statement. IN GENERAL, I think it's true that men want to have more sex than they're getting. Therefore, IN GENERAL, they would tend to assume that they enjoy it more than women. Is that a logical leap? Not really, but from their point of reference, it seems real.

There are lots of generalizations that women make about men (including on this board) that are equally erroneous leaps of logic. But they are based on the personal, shared experiences of some women.

There comes a point, for me, when I stand in my own truth and let the generalizations fall where they may. Those things do not have the power to give or take power from me because they simply are not my truth. When necessary, I will contradict them with my own experience or work through or around them.

It reminds me of a woman who worked with me at one time. She was assigned as the tech writer for a software project and was the only woman on the team of software engineers. When the project leader began to talk about timelines and use the term "man hours," she stood up and said, "Well! I guess I'm not needed here, then!" and stomped out of the meeting and into my office. SHe did NOT get sympathy from me because it was an unreasonable reaction on her part. It was HER baggage in the room giving weight to that word, not a power play on their part.

"You have a limited supply of silver bullets. Be careful when you choose to use them because you can never be sure if it's a werewolf coming out of the woods or just an overly-enthusiastic dog." -- A former manager of mine.

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 1:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
geeze, im so tierd right now, but I really enjoyed your post max. loved your story about man hours, and how you responded. also liked the silver bullet quote.. going to bed now, cant think any more. But somehow I think my mind is reeling from this thread...even befor I started writing, I was hooked...Its gives much to think about.

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 2:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wendo a private message Print Post    

quote:

Well, typically if you find a person's comments offensive, it isn't because you agree with them--more often than not it's offensive because you disagree with them.




Challenging someones assertion or opinion is not telling someone that they are wrong. Further, I didn't find the comments offensive because I disagreed with them, I found them offensive because it was a blanket assumption about how women enjoy sex.


quote:

My point was to say that for each of us, our beliefs are true for ourselves because of what we experience.




That's all well an good; however, if you note in the original post that distinction wasn't made (nor has it been made since.) All there is is the assertion that "men enjoy sex more than women." Period.


quote:

Generalizations are just that--generalizations. I see every day where behaviors perpetuate stereotypes for both genders. there lies the problem--those who give validity to the negatives within each of us.




While generalizations may be just generalizations, it does not mean they can't also be offensive and perpetuate stereotypes. Personally speaking, I do what I can to not validate stereotypes as well as challenge assertions and assumptions that do so.

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 2:33 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wendo a private message Print Post    
On a lighter not, here's a rather amusing joke about the subject. Enjoy! LOL!

"Who Enjoys Sex More

A man and a woman were having drinks, getting to know one another and started bantering back and forth about male - female issues. They talked about who was better in certain sports, who were the better entertainers, etc. The flirting continued for more than an hour when the topic of sex came up. So they got into an argument about who enjoyed sex more.

The man said, "Men obviously enjoy sex more than women. Why do you think we are so obsessed with getting laid?" .

He then went on for several hours arguing his point, even going so far as to ask other men in the bar for their opinions. The woman listened quietly until the man was finished making his point. Confident in the strength of his argument, the man awaited her response. "That doesn't prove anything," the woman countered. "Think about this: When your ear itches and you put your finger in it and wiggle it around, then pull it out, which feels better - your ear or your finger?"



Adven
Member

02-06-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:01 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Adven a private message Print Post    
Just for the record, there is no evidence at all that one sex enjoys sex more than the other. In fact, since rating pleasure would be subjective, it is something that would be almost impossible to quantify. Due to social roles and testosterone, men tend to be more sexually aggressive/assertive, but that doesn't mean a greater enjoyment of sex.

Dogdoc
Member

09-29-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dogdoc a private message Print Post    
I have never been offended by the term "man" being used when a women is involved. I say that I work in a two man practice simply because I do, even though I am a woman. On the other hand, if I make a post in this thread it is important to me that other posters know I am a woman writing. I am glad that this is a moderated area. Something like this could get out of hand. We posters here do have respect for one another even as we push and shove to get our points across. Honest feelings and opinions are expressed. I have confessed before to having a fear of men. This affects my posts and I want to aplogize to all you guys that I may be taking it out on.I don't mean you.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
It didn't make me feel inferior.

Vacanick
Member

07-12-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 6:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Vacanick a private message Print Post    
It didn't make me feel inferior either. I just disagreed with Newman's statements.

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 7:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Wow, I have a lot of catching up to do!

Glenn, I just read your Feb 26, 12:42pm post. Let me try to clarify. I like sex. I'm looking for a woman (well, not really actively looking any longer) who likes sex too. Just being honest.

Let's say I'm 56 and she's 45. She has a history and so do I. I think it's called baggage in the parlance. Why is her baggage heavier than mine? I have a lot of trust issues, insecure issues myself!

To repeat...if things are really clicking, the chemistry seems to be there, we're both having fun, laughs, non-stop talking and listening - well, why wouldn't sex be a natural next step? I don't view sex as something sacred in the sense of saving it for marriage and I wouldn't hook up with a woman who felt that way anyway.

Sex is sacred of course. I'm not looking for a one night stand or a hooker. Am I being clear at all? We've all been burned before by this age. That's a given. That's life. You have to be able to get back on the horse, don't you?

Again, trust your instincts. No game playing. Be up front and natural. I don't want to be her therapist. If she is so messed up that she doesn't want to sleep with me for a year or so, well, then ...


Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 7:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Julieboo a private message Print Post    
And with that ear/finger joke, the ear was the one with the itch, not the finger. So of course the ear will feel better.

Making a general statement that "men enjoy sex more than women" makes women inferior.
Doesn't make me feel inferior at all. Let 'em enjoy it more. I enjoy it just fine!

Heyltslori
Moderator

09-15-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Heyltslori a private message Print Post    
Hi Newman. :-) Something to consider... Maybe she really DOES wanna have sex with you. Maybe she is totally turned on all of the time she's with you. Maybe, after every date, it takes a cold shower and a phone call to her mother just to get you off of her mind.

Maybe in her past she's jumped into bed fairly early and all of those relationships ended badly. Maybe because you seem to have so much in common with her, she can really see some potential with you. Maybe she just likes you SO much that she is scared to have sex too early. She obviously likes you because she says yes when you ask her out. I'm pretty sure that it's not just for the free meal. :-)

So maybe she thinks that you're special enough that she wants to make sure that sex with you is special and meaningful too. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you, or anything wrong with the relationship. It just may mean that the times she's been quick to have sex in her past haven't resulted in successful relationships.

Maybe none of this makes sense to you...but from my perspective, as a woman, it makes sense to me. So who knows. It's just my


Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I guess I didn't see Newman's original comment as a generalization. I simply saw it as his perspective, which is pretty much what we all do here.

It's well documented that women due to social constructs are more inhibited about their sexuality. Thank goodness that is changing; but I still see evidence of it every day. They worry more about if their bodies are perfect enough, or if they'll be thought of as slutty - simply because the culture has long reinforced those views.

So, I think in a sense there is some truth to what Newman said; although as the song goes "the times they are a changing".

Offensive is also a very personal issue. It's a choice too - whether to be offended or whether to engage in conversation in a genuine and participative way that offers the ability for everyone to grow and be transformed.

Yesitsme
Member

08-24-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Yesitsme a private message Print Post    
Well in all likelihood someone's baggage is going to be heavier in any relationship. That's kinda the way it is. If theirs is heavier than yours, is it too heavy? (No judgment here....just thinking out loud. Not sure I want baggage a lot heavier than mine!)

I don't believe the length of time that you wait to have sex in a relationship necessarily has anything to do with your enjoyment of sex or the frequency with which you will have it once you make that jump. I used to work with girls that had been sexually abused and they were far more promiscuous than the average woman...and far less sexually satisfied. They tended to hide their past from their partners....but eventually it would crop up in some way, shape or form. Guess that is why I believe so strongly that communication is so important up front. It's hard to know what kind of baggage your partner has if you enter into a sexual relationship without good communication. It's romantic in the movies, a different kind of drama in real life.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I don't have a problem with baggage. The key is whether someone takes out their baggage on you (ie, they replay it and blame you for all their troubles), or whether they take responsibility for their own baggage.

I'm down from a trunk or two of baggage to a small suitcase. I'm hoping someday I'll actually get down to a carryon or two. But I rarely make anyone else responsible for carrying it for me. If they offer to help carry mine, I'll help carry theirs, that's the best scenario of all!

Jeep
Member

10-17-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jeep a private message Print Post    
Well, I just caught up with this thread and it certainly has gotten very interesting.

Someone said Newman was very brave to come back here to find out what he's done "wrong". When I read his posts and everyone else's, too, I don't think of it as "right or wrong". Feelings are never "right or wrong". Some people's methods of acting on those feelings are just more successful than others.....just different, not wrong.

That being said, the sex issue is a bit different for me. Remember, I was blindsided by my divorce....no clue. So here I was living and having sex with a man for 26 years, working, playing, going over bumps in life, thinking we were the average married couple, when....BAM.....he was cheating, physically abusing me, lying, violent, everything he hadn't been before. So, my question is "at what point do you really know a person well enough to have sex with them?" Newman says it's 3 dates for him. I could have waited 26 years before I really knew Mr. Jeep. That's unrealistic. So, I am at a loss to answer my own question.....

I've been divorced for a bit over one year now. I have not been on a date yet. I have not had sex (and I'm embarrass to admit that on this hot sex topic LOL). But would I like to....you bet! I've kept myself out of the game because I didn't trust my own instincts after such a slap in the face from the ex. If I didn't know him after 26 years, how am I supposed to "know" someone else new? What did I miss?

So, for the past year, I've been taking care of myself and my mom. I've been trying to just be me and liking the single person I am now. Mom's been gone for about 5 months now, so I've been really selfish and just thinking about myself. Nothing wrong with that. I've paid my dues.

Do I want to have sex with a guy after 3 dates? Maybe, if everything is going just right. At this point I can hardly wait until I get married as that might never happen again. It isn't a moral issue with me now, it's more of a health issue. Someone above talked about the 60's and 70's being full of love and sex without the threat of std's, AIDS, etc. You have to think about that now and I do. So, I might be a bit more cautious than I would have years ago (and all male & females should understand the health issues) and may even pass that 3 date mark. I don't like being put on a time table anyway. I would rather use my instincts than my calendar.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 8:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    

quote:

I would rather use my instincts than my calendar.




Jeep I think that answered your earlier question in your post about how well do you have to know someone.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
"Men enjoy sex more than women"

I hope I don't say too much here. I read or heard back in my college days that up to 50% of women go through life never having a real orgasm.
I'm not sure what they mean by "real". (female ejaculation or what) but if this is true, I think it stands to reason that physical sensations of sex are more important to a man, then a woman.

Just my thoughts.

Yesitsme
Member

08-24-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Yesitsme a private message Print Post    
I like having the different views on this stuff. Makes me think. I hope this remains a place where people don't have to censor their opinions. Because you think differently than me, doesn't mean one of us is wrong. Often we are all right to some degree. And if someone is wrong, so what? No need to take it personally.

Jeep, it sounds to me that you are keeping it all in perspective. You are recognizing the hurt and the long-time deception, but you aren't viewing all men as liars. My guess is that your instincts will guide you well and you have developed inner resources like never before. There are some definite things that all women need to be cautious about, but on another level trust is required for relationships. And the truth is, look at what you have already come through. You're one strong woman.

Merrysea
Member

08-13-2004

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Merrysea a private message Print Post    
I've been out of town and am just catching up on this thread, so some of what I wanted to say has already been covered. But one thing I've found, and I'm not pointing any fingers at any of the men here (who all seem to be much more enlightened than most that I've gone out with!), is that I don't want to have sex with a man until I know that he's more interested in me as a person, not just a body. I have gone on dates where after three dates, the guy didn't know how many kids I have! I may think he's a fascinating person, but if he doesn't take the time to ask me questions about my life and listen to me, then I'm not going any further with him. I've met several guys at dating sites and seen their face light up when they see me, but if they only talk about themselves or about sports and politics, then I feel that they are only interested in me for my body, not for who I am as a person. Heck, I could tell you all about the 21-year-old niece of one guy I went out with, but he didn't know one thing about me!

I'm not much of a talker in real life, and I have to be drawn out a bit, so it's not like I'm prattling on and he's not listening. When I first started dating, I had just come back from a trip of a lifetime (to me), two weeks in Scotland and England. I used it as a litmus test, by mentioning the trip, and seeing if he asked questions (such as how long I had gone, who I went with, did I enjoy it), and not one of them did. Every single man I mentioned it to immediately changed the subject back to them. None of them got any sex from me, and it had nothing to do with my enjoyment of sex!

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 9:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
I read somewhere that only 7% of women have orgasm via intercourse. Of course that's not the only way to have one though. So maybe that's why there's this thinking that men enjoy it more? Who knows.

Jeep
Member

10-17-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jeep a private message Print Post    
Well, I'm not in that 7% LOL! I think that men (generalizing again) need to be educated on a woman's body. My ex rarely made my eyes roll back, but when he did.....well, that made all the ho-hum sex worth it. Now I think I want someone who can hit the target more acurately and frequently. No more slam-bam-thank you mam for me! LOL

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Playing devil's advocate. Did you tell your ex that he wasn't hitting the target?