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Archive through April 11, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussion ARCHIVES: 2006 Mar. ~ 2006 May: The Faces of Meth: Archive through April 11, 2006 users admin

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Emeraldfire
Member

03-05-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Emeraldfire a private message Print Post    
Thank you Kearie, Texannie and Juju2bigdog.

I'm just one of many who have seen the devastation that Meth can cause. Kearie's heartfelt post show the scars left from living through the devastation.

I understand Jimmer's post and want to say once again that I totally respect Eeyoreslament and am in no way trying to attack her.

Normally I'm just a lurker, but I felt I needed to speak out just in case there is a poster or lurker out there thinking of trying Meth. I want them to know all sides of Meth and hope they won't make the decision to use.

If there are people out there on the fence I hope that they read Tigerfan's posts. They show the honesty to admit the addiction, the courage to describe it and the strength to overcome. They give hope.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
OK, here is what I am talking about, with regards to setting having an impact:

There was a study done at my school (Alexander, Beyerstein, Hadaway & Coambs) where rats were put out on our mountain, in this huge enclosure, large enough for them to feel like they could roam free. There were boy rats and girl rats, and trees and leaves and fresh air. The rats were given two drinking bottles: one had morphine, and one had plain water.

Now it is well known that rats in cages given a choice of morphine or water will repeatedly drink the morphine solution and ignore the water, leading many people to conclude that it is the morphine causing the rats to keep choosing more morphine.

But the rats in "Rat Park" at my university well only given morphine water (regular water was taken away) until they were dependent. Then they were given a choice of morphine or the water (both were always available). Once regular water was available rats went back to drinking only from the water bottle, and actually ignored the morphine.

One could infer from this experiment, that perhaps the stressful environment of being in a cage, around no other rat-friends, not living comfortably, had caused the caged rats to administer the morphine, as the morphine helped them escape the stresses and discomfort of their environment. OTOH, the rats who were living the good life in Rat Park did not succumb to morphine's addictive qualities, for they were not living in a stressful or uncomfortable environment.



Some people are dissatisfied with their lives and their environment, and using drugs is an escape route, however temporary. While some people may live in a comfortable place, the social and emotional pains may cause them to continue to crave these drugs, to escape that internal stress.

Here are some notes from my class:
1

I tried to make this second one a bit bigger so you could see the diagram:
2

I put these up to show that a drug is not effective by itself, and there is a very dynamic relationship at play. The drug itself is not the only problem in an addict's life.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
I've never felt attacked, BTW. I just felt like words were being put in my mouth which made me look like a horrible person. I'm not callous; I feel for every person who has dealt with the negative aspects of any drug, not just meth. I just think it wasn't only the meth that caused the meth users to abuse. And probably not the reason they still crave the drug.

I am sure an ex-addict, who has thrown much of their life away, broken trust with those close to them, will always have that emotional burden, despite being clean. This emotional stress may forever cause the person to want to seek escape in the form of using. This is where the need for intensive counselling for the individual and the family is so important, not just the elimination of the drug and its suppliers. Eliminate the drug, and the person will STILL look for escape routes via other things such as alcohol or other drugs.

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Herckleperckle a private message Print Post    
Eeyore, I think you mentioned a site called Erowid as one your professor felt is credible. I bumped into it tonight and looked it over quickly and I'd agree.

It appears to objectively list exhaustive information about "the relationship Between Humans and Psychoactives." And Meth, of course, is one of those drugs addressed.

Here's the link to that page: EROWID talks about Meth

The site confirms (as Kar said) that Meth has some devastating effects from habitual use.

Does your university plan to dissect mice to compare brains and organs in both the "free-range" mice and caged mice? Was there a control group that never had morphine introduced as an option at the outset? (So the physical comparisons could be made accurately if you are planning on dissecting them?) Were there any deaths in either group? Or illnesses detected?

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Eeyore, while the rat study is interesting, I'm not sure it fairly applies to the complexity of human behavior and motivation.

In addition, meth is highly physiologically addictive, far moreso than morphine, cocaine or alcohol. Studies have supported that quite clearly. It's physiological effects also occur far more rapidly and more dramatically than other recreational drugs as well. The desparate need for meth is not a psychological function as much as it is a physiological one. Once the dopamine receptors are greatly depleted, users simply CANNOT feel pleasure, of any kind, it is physiologically impossible. So, nice trees and a pleasant atmosphere and even someone to love, even sex for that matter has little or no pleasure associated with it. Therefore, changing the atmosphere simply could not alleviate the anhedonia, nor end the addiction. Rememeber the studies note that depressive affect can last for two years or more after abstinence. How many people can last that long without ever feeling any kind of pleasure or happiness, especially if they have free access to the substance that will alleviate that depression, even if only for hours at a time?

To minimize the drastic physiological effects of meth by implying it could be comparable to morphine is a bit misleading, I think.

I'm willing to bet that if the same study were conducted with rats on meth, you might see very different results. At any rate, the results with rats on morphine are simply not transferrable, to humans, to humans on meth, or even to rats on meth. :-)

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
From what I understand, this was a yoked-controlled experiment, where the rats in cages were given the same options at the same times as the Rat Park rats. I'm not sure about deaths, but can find out Thursday (my exam day). I've searched the online article indexes that we have access to through the university, but the FullText version is not available.

Our university dissects and compares a LOT of rat brains; our cognitive neuroscience program is pretty good (I hate that area of psych, personally). My good friend is "all but published" for his PhD, and does a ton of the brain slicing. But his work is more on the effects of androgens on rats. The rat park stuff was done about 25 years ago now, but is still relevant. I'll ask my prof if I can get an electronic copy.

As for a non-morphine group....I'm not sure how that would help the experiment. The experiment was to examine the relationship of environment on choices made by ex-morphine addicted rats. Again, I will have to find out those details later this week (Still haven't finished my paper, and exam on Monday, and and exam on Thursday to worry--or not worry--about).

I just thought the experiment was an interesting illustration of the environment's impact on drug-seeking behavior....

Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Schoolmarm a private message Print Post    
Eeyore,

You are making some good strides in critical thinking, but you need to take a few more. The study that you cite cannot be generalized to the topic that we are discussing because of the following variables/reasons:

1. Rats and humans are not the same. No university IRB would allow this experiment to be done with humans, due to risk. It is unwise to generalize a study with rats to humans. (chimps are closer, but more costly)

2. Morphine is not meth. This is not my field of study, but I know that they are not the same thing.

3. Do we know that morphine and/or meth have the same reactions in rats as humans?

4. It is an interesting variable regarding the environment. It is, again, not wise to infer that the experiment with rats tells us ANYTHING about humans. Your leap in transferring the rat study to humans is quite common with undergrads and beginning grad students. No researcher worth their salt would make such a leap.

5. Has this study been independently replicated?

6. Has this study been published in a peer-reviewed journal? If not, why not? Have the data been presented in any peer-reviewed fora?

7. I do not see how the rat study could relate to the "set" in your first graph. Do rats have the cognitive function for "knowledge" about drugs? Do rats have personalities? (Honestly, I don't know...my cat is rather stand-offish, but I wouldn't know whether she has an addictive personality or not. Don't know much about rats, but I know that most personality research involves humans and not lab animals.)

8. In your previous posts, you showed that the chemical structure for meth and the prescription drug were identical. This assumes that meth is made following a good "recipe". Does it matter whether they use Drano or lye or something else? Would that contaminate the chemical compound? Would inaccurate measurements cause other chemical compounds to form? Is dosage the same for street meth as for the prescription drug?

9. Just because it is published doen't mean that it is correct. Lots of inaccurate information is published on the internet and in textbooks. It is always best to refer to primary sources and data. Professors make mistakes. So do people who are interpreting their research. [Don't even get me started on the "Mozart makes you smarter" fiasco.]

Keep working on your critical thinking skills. I have to continue to remind my masters students that they cannot leap to infer conclusions that are not controlled by variables and replicated. Many people also seem to have troubles with confusing correlation (two variables are related) with causation (one variable causes the other....which one? Uh, you probably can't tell...it's usually the chicken and the egg syndrome.) The causation of addiction is also problematic. It is safer to say that two variables are correlated, unless clear causation can be shown.

I am glad that you are digging into your classes at the university. This is a vast improvement from where you were with your studies last year. Keep asking questions. Keep refining your critical thinking skills. You are on the right track, but not quite there yet.

There have been two unrelated murders in my small town in the last month due to meth dealing and meth use. It is a huge problem in rural Illinois, Missouri and Kentucky. Houses explode or burst into flames on a fairly regular basis due to bad "cooking".

I am highly annoyed that I have to take a little card from the shelf and fill out a form at the pharmacy when I need to buy a decongestant. Show my license, and register my purchase and am limited to two packages per month. (God help me with allergy season!) I know that other stores monitor the purchase of the other chemicals and household products used in making meth. I don't even know what these chemicals are, but I know that they are fairly common.

Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Schoolmarm a private message Print Post    
Gads, I took a long time to write...no one had responded to Eeyores interesting rat study when I started to write.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 11:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
Very good points Kar. The decrease in PSD D2 receptors is definitely a factor. It would be interesting to find info on how ex-addicts cope while on anti-depressants. I completely acknowledge the permanent damage that can occur in extreme users, and fully admit I haven't read every academic paper out there on meth and the brain, and the residual effects.

I didn't mean to imply a similarity between methamphetamine and morphine. One is a stimulant, one is an opiate. Very different. One of the few similarities is that they stimulate that same reward pathway. But the point of my post about that experiment was the effect of the environment on people's drug seeking behavior, and that it cannot be discounted, both during the initial phase of use, and later on, once damage has been done.

My original intent was to do with that initial phase of use, before a person is a hard-core user. I would think that the drug alone is not to blame for their increasing use, as we see some people use responsibly and return to normal life, and some people spiral downward for some reason. The question I keep asking is why it INITIALLY ruins some people's lives, and why other's don't have the same troubles. I think that is important, rather than making any broad swooping statements generalizing that meth ruins lives or statements of that nature.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 12:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
((Marm))

Yes, I definitely use the word "cause" capriciously. I do know the difference though, and have taken my obligatory research methods and data analysis courses for my degree. (And hated every minute of them)

While I am no chemist, I would think that whole "lock and key" hypothesis, with regards to only certain molecules "fitting" in certain receptors, would be important in the legal methamphetamine and the street-meth. I think that in order for it to have the "meth effect" it has to be meth. Does that make sense? (I'm so tired of writing, and while this is a break from my term paper, I'm still a Bobo with my words right now).

Actually, the cynic in me thinks the pharmaceutical companies make drugs with the same crappy ingredients and chemicals, but because those chemicals weren't labeled "Draino" before hand, we think pharmaceutical drugs are safer. I personally think we would think twice if we knew the ultra-involved chemical processes used to make our Advil and our Prozac.

Perhaps someone who is better at chemistry would be able to better answer these queries. While lye and other household things are used, I think the molecule still ends up being the same. Although perhaps there are "residuals" that are not connected to the active molecule, that also get into a street user's body, but do not have anything to do with the physiological high or the addiction. They may be metabolized elsewhere, or ruining other parts of the body. Does that make sense? The pharmaceutical companies have the resources and the legal processes to "clean up" and residual chemicals, and cut the active molecule into something like baking powder or something as a medium for ingestion.

This whole post is complete guess-work on my part, but the lock and key stuff leads me to believe that no matter what the process, the methamphetamine molecule is the same in both.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 1:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
On Eeyore's 3/7 10:16 pm post there are tow chemical structures. They are indeed different. One has and HCl group associated with it, the other doesn't.

I have so idea how they would affect the body as far as being the same or different--I only comment they are not the same. They would have different CAS# (a number assigned to each chemical).

With out regard to method used to make it, if you have pure meth, then it's pure meth. What happens though is that contaminants can exist. They can have different affects on the body just as you suggested.

I would be surprised though if any such contaminant would affect how addictive it is.

One night a couple months ago I did a google search using "the most addictive chemical is"

In looking at about 100 sites out of thousands of hits, it was actually split down the middle between two chemicals.

Nicotine and cocaine.

Not saying either does more or less damage to the human body, or affects families any more than meth. Just reporting results of my search.

I'd trust a pharmecutical drug over a home made one any day. They have very stick QA standards to meet when they make a med.

And when a very addictive drug is prescribed, there si always a risk of addiction. Diet pills, pain pills, sleeping pills--you name it and some people get addicted.

If you look up the schedule I-V drugs, you will notice that unless it says the chemical name "and its salts" there will be a CAS# with the chemical name.

This is the whole concept of designer drugs--to create a drug that has the same affect as a popular illegal drug (or even stronger affects) but making it molecularly just a bit different so it doesn't have the same CAS#. Then it's not illegal in terms of the schule I-V drugs.

It is possible to take 5K and turn it into a million dollars if you are good at chemistry, have the equipment and don't care what your efforts do to people.

Tigerfan
Member

11-06-2003

Monday, April 10, 2006 - 10:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tigerfan a private message Print Post    
Wow, I missed alot over the weekend! I'm gonna go back and catch up... I'll be back.

Cindori
Member

07-25-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cindori a private message Print Post    
I missed a lot over the weekend too.

I don't know a lot about the chemical properties of meth and drugs like it. I do know a bit about the physical affect of the use of it (or the aftermath) from my relationship with Tigerfan) and I also know firsthand about addiction and addictive personalities.

Emeraldfire, I applaud your post Saturday the 8th at 9:13 pm. The honesty, courage, and strength is real, as is the hope. There are many sides to any argument and the truth about any drug is that there is always a way to abuse it. There may well be a way to monitor and keep a "clean" way to use meth, but you know, why not just stay away from it altogether? Addiction is way too easy to fall into . . . many of us know that.

It was mentioned that ex-addicts carry emotional burdens from throwing much of their life away that may cause them to continue to look for escape routes through other things such as alcohol and other drugs. That may be true for many former (I prefer recovering, as I believe we're always recovering) addicts - but many of us learn to turn our addictive personalities to other things: sports, television, online communities , cooking, volunteering, reading, writing, learning, knitting, yoga, ANYTHING to keep us from turning to another bottle, another hit, another anything . . to give us another high. We have to learn to find something to give us joy . . and some of us find that in each other. Sappy, and true.

A lot of addicts have to hit rock bottom to come back up, and unfortunately some never learn that they can make it back from there. It concerns me that giving a message that a clean environment could make it "ok" to use some drugs - because using in a clean environment could lead to trying it occasionally outside of one . . . until it goes further and further . . . and doesn't stop.

I'm not as brave as Tigerfan - I won't tell my story, but you never set out to be an addict. And you never realize you are one until you're already there.

Tigerfan
Member

11-06-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:16 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tigerfan a private message Print Post    
". . and some of us find that in each other. Sappy, and true."

Awww... I feel the same way, sweet.

I love that we've turned ours to Hockey

Cindori
Member

07-25-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cindori a private message Print Post    
Me too, Tiger.

To everyone else - I didn't intend to turn any of this into being about us or make it icky and emotional, I just wanted to make a point that not all addicts continue to turn back to drugs and alcohol as another poster may have inadvertently implied.

Mayajnn
Member

01-27-2006

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mayajnn a private message Print Post    
Ok, here goes....After I got divorced, I became involved with a man that smoked crack (I didn't know it). When he finally told me, he asked if I wanted to try it. I did and became addicted. That addiction caused me to lose my job, my apartment and caused a wedge between me and my sister because I kept asking to "borrow" money. She thought I was just having a rough time making ends meet after my full-time job was cut to part-time (then I was let go completely). I "borrowed" almost $2,000 before she said no more.
The guy and I lived in a motel room for months with me doing nothing all day while he went out to make enough money to pay for the room that night and the rest we smoked in crack. It took him being arrested and spending a time in jail and me going to rehab to overcome the urge to continue smoking.
Ok...fast forward four years.
He and I are still friends and we went out one Friday night and, stupid us, we tried meth. It did't take much to get that old feeling of being high again. It took over three days to get over the affects (sleeping, sore mouth,being hungry, trying to eat but can't). It was then that I knew that I would not do drugs ever again. I have no desire, none, nada.

Mayajnn
Member

01-27-2006

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mayajnn a private message Print Post    
maybe I should add that I wasn't a spring chicken went I went through this, I was in my middle forties when I smoked crack for the first time.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 9:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
(((Maya)))

Mamie316
Member

07-08-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 9:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mamie316 a private message Print Post    
((Maya))

I think this drug has no age limit. My BIL started in his late 30's. We have no idea where he is now. My husband feels like he has lost his brother. His kids have lost their father and he's lost himself. It is a sad situation all the way around. I won't go into details here either but look how many lives this drug has touched within just the clubhouse. It's so sad.

Vacanick
Member

07-12-2004

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 10:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Vacanick a private message Print Post    
((Maya))

It really is so sad Mamie!

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Herckleperckle a private message Print Post    
Mamie, that is exactly my reaction. And I am so glad that people like Mayajnn (thank you!) are sharing their stories. I think it makes it harder to put our heads in the sand about who these people are. They aren't monsters, as we'd like to believe. They're your friends, your neighbors, your loved ones and your relatives. Or they were until they lost themselves, as Mamie said.

I just posted that first Faces of Meth graphic here as health advice (similar to the other things I post in the Health section). I never imagined how much I would learn from all of you --and how I would feel compelled to learn more after finding out how many people are affected here. I have read some remarkable exchanges.

Mayajnn and Tiger, hoping you stay strong. And wishing and praying that those of you who deal with the Meth Mess on an ongoing basis (via your afflicted friends, relatives and loved ones) get to feel hope for them this year---through positive strides these individuals take.

The worst for me to contemplate is that the worst offenders will never fully recover from their addiction. I've read enough now to be convinced of that.

Tigerfan
Member

11-06-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 1:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tigerfan a private message Print Post    
Thank you Herckle, I think the thread was a blessing in disguise for me... I've wanted to talk about it for quite some time, but have been afraid because of the way people tend to judge you.

I have so many horror stories from those days, and have seen and done things that would make your head spin.

I wish I'd been strong enough the very first time to say no, because that's really all it takes...once.

I will continue to pray for those who are dealing with it and those who have been affected by it as a family member or friend.

(( Maya )) (( Emerald ))

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Eeyoreslament a private message Print Post    
Hey Mods.....am I able to post a PDF article on the site? If so, how?

Crzndeb
Member

07-26-2004

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Crzndeb a private message Print Post    
My youngest daughter (now 21) got involved with meth about 4 yrs ago...Luckily she pulled herself out of it and now close to getting her degree in Early Childhood Education...She wants to get into Headstart...She has a gift with children. I had resigned myself to the fact back then, that the phone call would come that they found her dead...I still tear up thinking about it. God Bless all of you that have the strength to rise above it.

Tigerfan
Member

11-06-2003

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 2:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tigerfan a private message Print Post    
That's wonderful Crzndeb!! Congrat's to her!!