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Merrysea
Member
08-13-2004
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:50 pm
Self esteem is a tricky thing. I don't recall a lot of negative things before I was about eight, and then those weren't directly related to how my parents treated me, but how they were with each other. I had pretty low self-esteem until I joined Blue Devils Drum and Bugle Corps, then it skyrocketed. I always felt pretty good about myself when I was working, then at some point during my marriage it started sinking, just through subtle things my ex did and said. After I left it, my self-esteem once again soared, and now I feel pretty good about myself! 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Max, I have to admit that I was glad to hear that you have some good memories with your Dad. Sadly, there don't seem to be many of us here that do. Being a Dad myself, I find that a little distressing. I hope everyone understands that I'm not suggesting that I wouldn't want people to talk about these things, because I believe that talking about this helps. It has certainly been an eye opener to me. I must have led a very sheltered life growing up as I don't even recall any of my friends having serious issues with their parents at any age. Having said that, I was talking to a close friend the other day and he was saying that I am going to shocked at how few of my childrens' friends will have a good relationship with both parents and how many of their friends will have parents that are separated or divorced.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:59 pm
Max, one of the reasons the childhood memory book asks you to go back to your feelings in earliest memories is that in doing so you actually reveal your personality before filters set in. My two earliest memories were falling off a swing and tipping over on a tricycle and in both cases hoping nobody saw me get hurt. A different personality type would have handled it differently. Catherine Coulter has written a book about personality types that says that constitutionally we are born favoring a certain type and this directs our behavior. Nat Mur (my type) for example, hold grudges for ever, remembers every insult, will not cry in front of others and hates sympathy. If you like psychology it is a good book to read.When I read it I was glad to see there were others just like me! My sister sure isn't.
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:24 pm
Jimmer, All my best memories are of times with my dad. I was always a "daddy's girl" in the best way. I miss him every day. He was the most patient person I ever met and to have him say he was proud of me was the highlight of any day. Unfortunately, lots of girls grow up with daddy issues. I'm lucky that I'm not one of them. Dogdoc, When I think of how I felt during those early memories it was excited, happy, joyful and then thoroughly disappointed and feeling like I was an idiot after the reaction I received from mom. The hiding part was pure fear and self-protection. Since I was the youngest by six years, dad was at work and bro and sis were in school. If mom's anger had turned beyond inaminate objects, I would have been the target (and I was many times). Anyway, I do tend to approach things from a happy place most of the time and I think that is my true nature. Heck, my blogs are "Drive for Joy" (about my car adventures) and "Knit for Joy" and I have a reputation for my loud laugh (which always irritated the heckfire out of mom) and my ability to make folks smile. As for differences within a single family, don't get me started! Of course, none of us share the same gene pool, so that might have something to do with it. 
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 4:41 pm
Sure I can think of positive traits and memories with mom. They don't negate the damage, but I do want to paint a fair picture. My mom used to love to read nursery rhymes and childrens stories to me. Her English wasn't 100% so it helped her to develop her own comfort level with the language. She enjoyed cooking, and food was truly a comfort at our house. She was percieved by herself and others, as ver clever, and a real survivor, no matter what was thrown at her. She is great with numbers to this day, sadly I didn't inherit the math gene from either parent, lol, and dad was a bookeeper! She gets joy from simple things, pretty flowers, movie musicals, sitcoms, and great shopping bargains. So no, she's not the devil incarnate, by any means. Just a very flawed human as the rest of us. I just believe that some people really, and I mean really, shouldn't have kids. On the other hand, dad wasn't a saint. Apparently he had emotional/mental problems and was taking medication to control his temper (according to my mom...) He had a hard time keeping a job, even though he was extremely intelligent and well read. He was just socially inept I guess. He had a huge temper, as did his brother and they had some loud, scary fights in a language I don't speak or understand which made them rather terrifying for a kid, although furniture may have gone flying, I was never, ever hit, or hurt. It was between them. My dad and his bro. (My grandma goaded, and sat back and enjoyed the show. I'd usually go hide in my room, if I was visiting.) Mom has indicated that although I was 2 years old when they split, she endured this kind of behavior from him. I do have a few vague memories of this, but nothing truly concrete. I do remember once stepping between them and saying 'Daddy don't hit Mommy!', as his hand was raised - And he dropped his hand and controlled himself. The thing is that my mom has a viper's tongue and is very pushy, and manipulative, so I can see her pushing her luck. Since I have dad's temper and mom's mouth, lol, Good thing I have her strength to survive most miseries, (even if they are of our making) and his ability to discover and savour the best of life with as much gusto as possible, even if we have to create our own joy. I also have a hard time fitting in and keeping jobs so I simply reinvented myself early on as an office TEMP and a FREELANCE writer. (GRIN) BTW, if anyone thinks I am simply venting at this point... I do encourage you to skip my posts. I believe I am sharing in dialogue as well as learning from others and myself, as I read and reread what I've written and the responses to it, and that's how I learn and grow.
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Vacanick
Member
07-12-2004
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 4:41 pm
Max ... I love that you approach things from a happy place most of the time. I think that's the perfect way to navigate through this life, with a smile on your face! 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 4:57 pm
I'd say that has a lot to do with it also Max... the good old "Nature vs Nurture Debate" I think it's about 30% nature and the rest, nurture...but that's just me. My memories of my dad are good also. Positive. But my interactions with him must have been less significant to my developing self esteem than other things. Dad was safer than mom, but home wasn't safe.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:12 pm
My heart hurts so, for my dad. He died when I was 20. I'm 51 now, and I see a clever, fairly gentle soul, who didn't know how to respond properly to pressures and it developed into temper tantrums, and who IMHO, simply lacked career direction and genuine self-esteem. He could easily have hired himself out as a freelance bookeeper, etc. He was such a sweet guy, but his brother and his mother just kept him as the joe-boy and it must have eaten at him. He did so much for his mother but my uncle was her favourite. It had to have eaten at him. But with me, he was always gentle and fun, and a cockeyed optimist. Gosh I miss him so much! With what I know now, I could have helped him. But I was young, and so afraid I was going to turn out like him, with mental problems, and with mom's brainwashing, it took me five long years to distance myself and really grieve. I miss him so. I wish he knew I became a published columnist, and developed some wonderful friendships, and matured, and married a wonderful guy whom he would surely have loved and bonded with, and that I lived somewhat happily ever after. He was only 56 when he passed away. I miss him so.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:24 pm
Mame, I totally agree with you! I do believe you are sharing and in the process, growing and learning more about yourself and others. I hope, for a majority of those that are posting in this thread, we are learning from each other, growing, and sharing our lives. I find it very helpful and cathartic reading these posts. Mame, I do not skip your posts. I think you are a great writer and I totally love reading whatever you write! So, as far as I am concerned, write on Mame!
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:28 pm
Mame, For what it's worth, I do believe your dad knows all of these things you have mentioned about yourself and your life! I truly do, Mame!
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:30 pm
As I said, it's wonderful that we can open up and share some tough experiences. It's also nice to hear some good things too. I miss my Dad too. It's not that I don't miss my Mom. It's just that things were never the same after my Dad was gone. We did our best but looking back now I realize how lonely my Mom must have been without him.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:45 pm
Jimmer, like you said, we are opening up here and sharing experiences.Like Mame, I have read and re-read the recent posts. The things I have written about myself here are things even my closest friends have not heard. I hope this kind of post keeps on coming.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:52 pm
I think that no matter who's story we read, we always learn a little something about ourselves. I really appreciate those taking time to share because it gives me oppertunities to learn and grow. Big thanks to all.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 6:30 pm
Thanks pals! I also wanted to add that his mental illness manifested itself in Paranoia at the end of his life... I must say though, that I hope I have not inadvertantly given the impression that my dad was violent. He absolutely wasn't. That memory above is my ONLY memory of that sort - and he did stop himself. Also, the only thing I remember clearly is the odd chair flying. Or the table being pounded. But nobody getting smacked around at all, ever! EVER. I lived in fear of the fights escalating, but they never did. (Thank heavens!) NOT in front of me, anyways. So I am not delusional or in denial when I say that my dad was a very gentle, funloving soul. Cuz that's who he really was 99% of the time, and 100% of the time with me. Right now I am remembering that his scent was Aqua Velva. I had a boyfriend once, who when he heard that, he began to wear that cologne/aftershave as a manipulative ploy with me, til I figured out what he was doing... he thought it would make me more, um, pliable. I was young, about 24 at the time. (Some people are unbelieveable!)
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:01 pm
Life can be so complicated. There was a young family, father and mother in their 20s and two young children in our neighbor hood. The man would occasionally get violent and go after his wife. He never went after the kids but the police would have to be called. The father had an inoperable brain tumor and did not have long to live. The tumor caused the violence but it was controlled by medication. When forgot to take the medication he could be violent. He wanted to be with his family as long as possible but as it was there was not much time left for them to be together. Her love for him kept them together. Something like that is a hard call. I don't know what I would have done.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 8:27 am
Karuuna, this is the frustrating part of life. I disagree with my son's decision to go to Iraq. I expressed that to him in so many words. He's going anyway. I don't respect his decision. Just being honest. He's making a bad decision. I don't think he "needs" me at all. Words. When he comes back, if he comes back maimed from a roadside bomb, of course I won't say "I told you so." And of course he will be thinking that I had warned him. So we will just pretend we never talked about it? And if he comes home dead, well, we won't have much to talk about. If he comes home ok, then what? It all centers around "acceptance". I tried to get him not to go to Iraq. He's his own man, makes his own decisions, and chooses not to listen to me. OK. I can accept that. I guess I can call and talk about the weather or American Idol or other stuff that doesn't matter. Nothing matters. That's the frustration. Why can't friends agree on important things, like the war in Iraq or illegal immigration or religion/God? If you don't agree on important things, why are you friends at all? My former best friend and I don't agree on the immigration issue. It started deteriorating into name calling. We agreed to stop emailing. I can ACCEPT that. But my natural reaction is to simply withdraw from him. We can still talk about the Broncos, but who cares about the damn Broncos? I'm frustrated. Feel like withdrawing into a shell... It's a feeling that I don't matter where it's important to matter, with my older son, and with my former best friend...
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:03 am
One quick question Newman.... Do you need people to agree with you in order to feel validated? I think we can learn a great deal from people we disagree with if we listen careful and with an open mind. We still may not agree, but maybe we can understand...and that's important in any relationship.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:21 am
I agree that it can be a little frustrating when people don't agree with you. However, it can be extremely frustrating when people you care about and like (or love) disagree with you on important issues. Now chances are that the immigration issue is not going to have an extreme impact on your personal life, unless you know people who are affected by that situation. So it is not as big a deal personally. However, I can see how having a son risk his life by going to Iraq would significantly impact a persons personal life and that would be very upsetting. It is not something that is easily dismissed if you think that he is making the wrong decision. It's somewhat similar to being married to someone and saying that you are not going to let their excessive drinking affect your relationship. Or seeing someone that you care about doing something that damages their health.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:26 am
I disagree with my parents on many things. It's probably easiest to say she is Republican for "religious moral reasons" so to speak. I'm much more liberal. We both agree that abortion is wrong but she thinks it should be illegal and I don't. She disagrees with premarital sex and living with someone before marriage. She's always trying to get me to go to church...but I won't. We disagree on several things, but we focus on things we have in common. ArReal and I tend to agree on the above things, but we disagree on several things also. Lord knows I didn't want my only child, a female, joining the Marines at a time of war. At 17 years old. She's my baby. When she graduated from bootcamp and went to her MOS she called me and told me she was volunteering to go to Iraq. She knew I was against this war, but she was still volunteering. Talk about my heart stopping with fear for my baby girl. I asked her "why" but that was about it. I was scared she would get hurt, but moreso, I was terrified that she would come home with a crushed spirit. She's way to sensitive to other people hurting. Seeing combat would destroy a part of her that makes her her. It's funny, even though I said very little, she changed her mind. I'm proud of ArReal ... she's strong-willed and goes for what SHE believes. I find that very admirable.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:06 am
Kearie, I don't know what you really mean by "validated". It just sounds like psycho-babble right now. You can say Marino was a better quarterback than Elway. OK. I can accept our differences. We don't have to agree on that. No big deal. Splitting hairs, or hares, as Rabbit would say... I see it the way Jimmer said at 9:11am. What if you find out your best friend is a racist? I think that is part of the immigration issue. These people are coming over, working hard, doing jobs that Americans won't do for the slave wages that Corporations are willing to pay them. Why? Because it's better than their life in impoverished Mexico. Isn't that what the Statue of Liberty says? Bring us your poor, your huddled masses? We are a land of immigrants. We stole this land from the Indians. When they saw the Pilgrims coming over did they start building walls? What matters? If my best friend and I differ on what I deem is important, well, the natural tendency is to drift away. You can always find new friends. You can't find new sons. Right now I know my son doesn't want to hear other points of view. OK. I get it. That doesn't lessen my frustration any.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:14 am
Wanted to respond to something Max wrote on 4/15 at 12:15pm. Forgiving vs. understanding. I know you are supposed to forgive. It's the politically correct thing to do. Religiously correct. Philosophically correct. However, if MY Mother slapped me around as a child, I don't think I could forgive her. Likewise I have not forgiven my Ex for the way she treated our kids. I understand it. She had anger issues, jealousy issues, self esteem issues perhaps? But I can't forgive. She could control her anger at work. Why couldn't she control it at home?! WE coulda had a good life. We shoulda had a good life. We didn't. Now I don't think about the Ex everyday, at least consciously. I've let it go. Moved on. Turned the page. Had a few girlfriends since we got divorced, etc. It's hard to forgive. I don't think I honestly can. And even if I could...so what? It wouldn't fix the past and it won't fix the present or the future. Not holding on to the anger, not getting an ulcer over it, not even feeling sorry for myself. Just trying to use words to explain feelings and concepts. I can understand. I cannot forgive.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:41 am
Let me tell a story... In my early 20s, my very best friend in the world decided to marry the wrong guy. By wrong guy, I mean *extremely* wrong. He was verbally abusive to her, he even asked ME out while THEY were engaged! She asked me to be her maid of honor. So I sat with her and said "I will always love you, and I will always stand by you. I think you are making a huge mistake in marrying this person, but if you want me to, I will be there for you, because of my loyalty to you." She said she still wanted me to be her maid of homor, so I was. It was not easy for me. I did it for her and for our friendship. We continued to be friends, although I almost never saw her husband. Two years into the relationship, I sat with her again. I said "I am worried for you. You've changed in these years. You don't wear makeup. You don't go out without permission. You don't take care of yourself. You don't even laugh any more. It breaks my heart to see you like this." At that moment, she got it. She decided to end the marriage. I often wonder if I had not stood up for her and stayed her friend even though I vehemently disagreed with her, what might have happened. Twenty years later, we are still friends. She is now a born again Christian, and every now and then she tells me she is worried for my soul. I smile and say, don't worry, i'm all right with God; and I love you for caring about my soul. We are still friends though we wildly disagree about faith. We choose not to argue about it, although we do discuss it. It is our choice to discuss it with the attitude of trying to understand the other's point of view, rather than trying to convince the other that our point of view is right. To me, that's what love is. Whether it is a friend, or relative or whomever. Giving space to people to be who they are, even if they assault our own sensibilities, and still love them deeply. There is a limit to this. If someone commits a crime, or endangers another, I would speak up. I would speak up if they tried to commit suicide. This does not mean I stop loving them, I consider it an act of love to stop someone from these kinds of behaviors. At the same time, the limits of allowing someone to be who they are are only the most drastic behaviors, not so much of what many people find as justification to end relationships, not the ordinary stuff, like politics or faith. And I can forgive. Only because I recognize how much I am in need of forgiveness. I cannot withhold my forgiveness as some kind of club against another. I have been forgiven too many times when I did not deserve it, or utter a single word of apology. I think to love someone as you would be loved means to let them be who they are without judgment. That's how I want to be loved, with all my idiosyncracies, with all my faults, with all my inconsistencies and sometimes insufferable behavior. So that's how I choose to love; and to forgive.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:43 am
And just one more note on forgiveness.. only because it's Easter. Imagine what kind of religion Christianity would have been if Jesus looked down from the cross and said "I HATE all you guys. Damn you!" But he didn't. He said, Forgive them, for they know not what they do. I'm not always that compassionate or strong, but I think it's a good model to try to live up to.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:44 am
You don't understand "validated" and it sounds like psycho babble...hmmm... Let me ask the question another way. Why is it so important to you that other people agree with you? If you've had a good friendship with someone and 5 years later find out they are racist...that will destroy the friendship? Good friends are hard to find. I'm thinking if you never knew this person was racist before, obviously it wasn't a big hindrance to your friendship. As long as this issue isn't an "in your face" issue, why not continue golfing with them. If they suddenly started making a bunch of racial comments and it obvious in all interactions ... then I would consider changing the friendship. Perhaps this is a gender difference thing. Women are usually more family and friendship orientated. Friendships based on sharing emotions and not just politics??? Just a thot.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:47 am
Kar...I loved your post...both of them. I completely agree.
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