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Archive through December 07, 2005

The TVClubHouse: General Discussion ARCHIVES: 2006 Mar. ~ 2006 May: Baby Boomers, Living Alone, Changing Habits (ARCHIVES): Archive through December 07, 2005 users admin

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Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 4:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Oh, and one other because of your interest in discussing with others politics and religion. They could both be considered forms of philosophy?? See if this hits home at all for you Newman.

"The philosopher's ideal is that of a rational being coexisting with other rational beings. He wants to doubt, he thirsts for objections and attacks, he strives to become capable of playing his part in the dialogue of ever-deepening communications, which is the prerequisite of all truth and without which there is no truth”

Karl Jaspers “Way to Wisdom”

Grannyg
Member

05-28-2002

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 5:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Grannyg a private message Print Post    
Lance, I love to read what you share. It is always so insightful and helpful.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 5:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
I'll second that Grannyg. I don't always agree with him, but he is always rational and thought provoking. (With the exception of his posts in the Animal Farm)

"Our ideologies separate us. Our dreams and anguish bring us together."

Landi
Member

07-29-2002

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 5:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Landi a private message Print Post    
newman, have you thought of taking a philosophy or political science class at your local community college?

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 9:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Landi, I think I'm at the age where I should be teaching, not learning. I've been "the Grasshopper" my whole life. Isn't it time to be the sensei?

But of course that is a good thought. It goes along with what Brenda and others have said. Do something you like, join a club or activity that you like, and if you happen to meet someone there, all the better. You know you at least share one common interest.

Erich Fromm. I know I read one psych book by him back in college, Lance, something with the word Love in the title. It was very good.

Lance, for me it's hard not to be depressed with the way our country is going, from my point of view. I can't stand Bush's "leadership". The Republican right has us debating whether we should torture people. Who woulda thought America would be in favor of torture?!

I find right wing talk radio to be extremely repulsive, selfish, and "everyman for himself" in philosophy. Personally i think we're all in this together. It's a different mindset.

Kearie, somewhere up there you talked about sin, a word I rarely use. I never understood the concept of "original sin." Why should a newborn have original sin? He didn't do anything!

Then you related sinful nature to being "selfish", which we all were/are, especially when we were younger. But you do learn almost everything you need to in Kindergarten, as that book suggested. You learn to share. You learn to respect others and their space and their feelings. And so forth.

For me belief in God would take a leap of faith. It's a mystery to me why people have faith in God, after Columbine or September 11 or Katrina. For me to take that leap of faith I would need some sort of sign. I'm not going to dive into the pool unless I'm sure it's full of water, clean water, and deep water too.


Landi
Member

07-29-2002

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 9:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Landi a private message Print Post    
you know belief in god for me wasn't a sign in that sense. and i didn't have that "sign" until i was 35. it was learning one little line that someone told me.

just because your prayers weren't answered the way you wanted them to be doesn't mean they weren't answered.

faith is an amazing thing. and i am not going to push church or religion or god or budha or hari khrishna or anything like that on anyone.

of course my life's quote is thus:
by Nietzsche

that which does not kill us, makes us stronger


Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 9:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Newman, I agree with you on the Bush Regime. UGH!
Personally, I don't believe Bush and his folks are "christian" because of their behavior. I think many "Christians" are blinded by smaller issues and can't see the forest through the trees.

Jmm
Moderator

08-16-2002

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jmm a private message Print Post    

quote:

Landi, I think I'm at the age where I should be teaching, not learning. I've been "the Grasshopper" my whole life. Isn't it time to be the sensei?




Newman, Have you thought about looking into a mentoring program? I know that you must have many things to share with others. If kids aren't your thing, what about Project Literacy Plus? There are so many ways to "be the sensei".

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Newman wrote:

Landi, I think I'm at the age where I should be teaching, not learning. I've been "the Grasshopper" my whole life. Isn't it time to be the sensei?

I have found that the more I learn the more I realize the less I know. Not good grammar, is it? LOL

Teaching others is a great thing to give Newman. It is what keeps us civilized, among other things. We need to learn from the mistakes we make--and from the mistakes others make.

Of course it's better to learn how not to make them, but for some it's not possible to learn without making the mistakes ourselves.

What every teacher should hope for is to learn along the way at the same time as teaching others. Yet, in the end, no matter how good we do at teaching, the responsibility to use what is learned is with the student--not the teacher.

Parents have the toughest time with this. Teaching our kids what is right--what is just. It doesn't mean they will do the right things--it only means we have done our best to give them the best information. The choice of what they do with it rests with them.

Newman, the great thing about being a teacher is that you can do it outside of a classroom. Sometimes life lessons are as much or more important as "book lessons".

I think TVCH has something special in this respect. We all teach and learn from each other all at the same time. Maybe it's about a cell phone, or a computer, or a thought about how to look at a relationship.

To me the art of teaching isn't knowing the information--it's being able to connect with someone so that the want and understand the information--it's about making the information relate to them in some way.

I think a person can be a "grasshopper" and a "master" at the same time.

Newman you speak of the way things are under Bush. I'm no fan of war--especially when there is no valid reason to be at war. War does horrible things to people. I've posted my thoughts about that in the N&V area. People seem to be so surprised about torture and other horrible acts. And so many don't realize what being in a war brings out in those involved.

It is one of the worst things we have ever done to other humans. Depressing?? If it isn't, I'd think there would be something wrong with a person who doesn't get depressed about some very horrible things. Hang in there Newman--do what you can. Teach others if you can. Learn whenever possible.

Newman, a leap of faith--remember that faith is believe without question. We each have to decide what rules we will follow. Any given religion is actually a set of rules by which to live life.

What set of rules work for you? That answer for you may be different than for any other person you know. I think what is important is that once a person decides what set of rules to by, then live by them. At times that can be tough. As with anything else, doing so doesn't come without a price. At some point, doing the "right thing" will cost.

I think very few of us are in a position to make a big change in the world by what we do. That isn't to say we can't make any changes of some type. It may be a small change--maybe we don't even see a change we affected in one person--yet it happens.

As a species, sadly we are our own worst enemies. Yet we can also be our own greatest inspirations. I agree with you that we do learn the things we need early in life--respect, sharing, etc. So, what are we going to do about it?

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    

quote:

For me belief in God would take a leap of faith. It's a mystery to me why people have faith in God, after Columbine or September 11 or Katrina. For me to take that leap of faith I would need some sort of sign.




It's a mystery to me why people don't have faith in God after what happened because it could've been so much worse. More people could've died in Columbine but they were spared. The plane that crashed in Pennsylania could've taken more people out but it didn't. Those flights weren't as full as they should've been. Katrina showed just how unprepared we are when facing natural disaster so we will learn from that.

How can anyone not see God's work in this?

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Lol I can't believe I'm arguing about theology, dh would die laughing as he calls me the anti-christ.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 3:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Hey Lance....question...

Are you familiar with Descartes Meditations?
Where he uses doubt to prove...in his mind....that God exists and is good.

I know you're well educated and well worded...I'm asking the intelligent atheist in you to give me your thots on the above.

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 6:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Landi, I'm happy for you. Everyone's different. I just require more.

I don't even understand the concept of prayer. If God is all knowing, then he already knows what I want or need so what is the point of me asking Him?

Those kids under the desks in Columbine were praying for their lives. To spare them was the correct answer. Divine intervention. It didn't happen.

Maybe God doesn't get involved anymore like in the old testament days. I think this theory of God is called the clock maker. He started the whole thing in motion, but now he's stepped back and given us free will and is just watching from above.

If that is the case then, again, why pray to him. He's not going to do anything about it.


Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Jmm, Project Literacy Plus? Never heard of it. And you're right. I'm not into kids. I had my chance with my three kids, now all grown and out of the house. It was hard to effect their lives because I was always battling with my wife.

Mocha, of course things could always be worse. That doesn't prove the existance of God to me. Because they could also be better, too!

Instead of adding something to my life, maybe the answer is to remove some things. Clutter would be number one. I've always been a media maven, gathering info. Talk radio is on all the time in the postal vehicle and car. Keith Olberman and Chris Matthews are always talking to me. Maybe I'm out of balance and need more quiet. More music, less talk. Less writing. More listening. Less media. More silence. Balance.


Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Lance, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding me and faith. That's why I don't have any. I tend to question EVERYTHING! That's my nature. Some people can't stand that very part of me. I ask too many questions. Why? Well, I wanna know the answers!

If we all learn everything we really need to know in Kindergarten, what happens to us? What went wrong? I guess the baser human emotions are stronger. Greed overpowers generosity for example. Aggressiveness is stronger than niceness. And so on...

I used to be a very good, attentive listener. Then one day it occurred to me that whoever was talking, was just babbling. I had more interesting things to say than he did. Why not assert myself, try to take over the conversation, and move it in the direction I want it to go.

I think I probably do too much of that, work for too much control, instead of seeking the balance of talking AND listening.

As for being a teacher...I don't know. I can't see me monologing. I'm quite shy at heart, especially in front of a big group. Maybe one on one tutoring, but I'm like you, Lance. The more I learn about a subject, say the war in Iraq or the religion of Islam, the more I realize how much I don't know.!


Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
I think God is answering you but you just aren't listening. Can I ask you a question? Do you love yourself?

Landi
Member

07-29-2002

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 7:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Landi a private message Print Post    

quote:

I think God is answering you but you just aren't listening.




mocha, i think that is an amazing thing to say. i need to put that up. i think that's where i found faith, when i started to listen.


Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
I agree with Mocha about faith and Landi's statement about answered prayers. I am very much a "show me" person and sometimes I have to remember that what I'm expecting to see is not necessarily what God is going to show me.

People wonder if there is a God why would he allow horrible things to happen. In the Bible God says we can expect trials in our life. How shallow would we be if we were able to sail through life with no problems and nothing to strive for.

My best friend has a son who had 4 brain surgeries (one caused a stroke) and many resulting challenges before his first birthday and all the doctors said he would not live to his first birthday. Matthew will be 20 yrs. old in January. No one can tell me there are no miracles.

I waited 35 years to have a child. I had the usual dreams of my son being a genius and excelling at everything he attempted. The reality is I have a son who has a mental illness and a learning disability and spent 2 weeks in a psychiatric hospital right after his 8th birthday when the dam exploded and he attacked me and threatened to jump out of a moving car. He is now 11 yrs old and still can't tell time or read above first grade level. Today he was suspended from school for the 3rd time this year. So, yeah, I've had many "where are you, God" and "why me" moments. Then my son will come up and hug me and say "Mommy, I love you more than anything in this world" or "Mommy, you look beautiful today" or simply "Mommy, I'm sorry." Those are the times I realize that God blessed me with this child. I also frequently have to remind my son know that God blessed him with me because he could have been borne to a mom that didn't care what he does.

I wonder how can anyone look at a newborn, a sunrise or sunset, a perfect rose, a thunderstorm or any of nature's wonders and not believe there is a higher power. I also wonder if there is not God or Heaven, then what's the purpose of anything.

As for feeling alone, I understand that too. Heck, I understood that when I was married. It has been almost exactly one year since my separation and almost 4 months since my divorce was final. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I had absolutely no desire for companionship. Now, sometimes I think how nice it would be just to be held.

TVCH has been a lifeline for me this past year. I experience laughter, joy, sadness, anger, frustration, understanding, caring, respect - well, you get the idea. Though many of us will never meet face to face, it says something when an event happens in your life and sometimes the first people you want to share it with are right here. On the 17th of every month, I know I can go into my folder and Lumbele will have left me a congratulations on another month of not smoking. I know I can come here any time of the day and night and vent. Since coming here, I have learned something new on a daily basis. Some of you would probably be quite surprised to know just how far right-wing I was (HAHAHA) but thanks to many here and in Washington, while there are some issues I will never budge on, I am moving closer to middle.

Well, I guess I have preached and rambled enough. Newman, I know I probably didn't answer any of your questions, but I deeply appreciate you starting this thread. Sometimes it's nice to just to have an outlet for nothing in particular and everything in general.

Okay, one more ramble. As my 47th birthday is approaching at breakneck speed, it dawned on me that I am one of those people others call middle-aged. I honestly don't feel that way. While I know that my life is at best half-over, I'm determined that the second half will be what I spent the first half waiting for.

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
Newman, I was and still sometimes am a control freak. A realization I came to back in January when my estrange husband took my son was that neither I or anyone else has ever been or will ever be in control of anything. While that realization at the time made me angrier and more frightened that I've ever been in my life, eventually it came as a greal relief. I'm now happier and more relaxed and sleep better than I have since I was a teenager.

Jmm
Moderator

08-16-2002

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jmm a private message Print Post    
Newman, Project Literacy Plus is a program where you volunteer to help an adult or small groups of adults learn to read. You will be given training and it does require a certain time committment. Every area of the country has their own program and may go by different names but you can call the local library and see what they have in your area. It's a way to help someone learn a valuable skill and they always need more volunteers.

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Mocha, I don't love myself right now. I'm disappointed in me. I've made some mistakes recently that I can't forgive myself for. Well, lets just say I have regrets.

I'm at a spot in my life, 56 next month, where I'm reviewing things - hence this thread.

One good thing that is happening is that I am now feverishly writing my twin brother in Virginia! We are not close at all. He was the dominant twin. I think, after I lost the competition, that I just dropped out (so to speak). Of course it's more complicated than that...but we are writing back and forth, trying to remember our youth, filling in some blanks, trying to reconnect now that we're not competing anymore (or are we?)? Who can remember better, lol?

Native, a person can love a sunrise, appreciate a rose or see a miracle happen (like the CU Buffs scoring 3 whole points against Texas), and all that can happen without there being a God.

Let's say I view God as Nature, like the Pagans did way back when Christ was born. Sometimes the body heals itself, miraculously. I had a pain in my knee last week. Today it's gone. I didn't pray or go to a doctor. Nature took it's course. (not as quickly as when I was younger, lol).

Control? We could type for hours about control. It needs it's own thread. As a kid you can't wait until you're an adult; so you can control things. Well, now we're all adults and it's laughable to try to think you can "control" anything!


Twiggyish
Member

08-14-2000

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 9:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Twiggyish a private message Print Post    
I think we all reach points in life where we evaluate ourselves. I've done it a few times. Sometimes I think we are harder on ourselves than we are of other people. I'm not sure why. It sounds like you are at one of those points. As to whatever happened in the past....
I read saying by a wise person and it has always been with me.."you can't change your past, but you can change your future". You sound like you're doing something to shape your future by contacting your twin. Good luck!

Max
Moderator

08-12-2000

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Max a private message Print Post    
Well, I believe in God, but that's really just a label that I've assigned to a power outside of myself that I believe unites the universe in ways I can't fully understand. Since I was raised in a Methodist church, that has provided the labels or filters through which I view and name things in my belief system.

But I do not believe that there is a all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful entity watching everything we do and influencing things. Therefore, I do not pose questions like, "Why does God let bad things happen?" because I don't view the whole concept of a higher power as being that simplistic.

For me, the Holy Spirit (again a label I assign to my belief based on my upbringing) resides inside each and every one of us. It's that still, small voice that we don't listen to very often. It's that feeling in the pit of your stomach, that nagging voice in teh back of your head, that feeling that makes the hair rise on the nape of your neck even if you don't know why. We surround ourselves with so much input and so much thinking that we tend not to listen to this still, small voice very often.

For me, praying is a time to center, a time to try and channel positive thoughts and energy for myself and for others. I absolutely believe that it IS possible to do that through prayer or meditation or whatever label you feel comfortable assigning to a time when you sit quietly and concentrate on positive things, positive energy, and listening for the still, small voice inside.

I believe that if you seek first to understand, then to be understood, you'll learn a lot about others as well as yourself. I believe that there are ties that bind us to one another, but we don't always know they're there. I believe we are each a small pebble making waves in the pond that is the universe and we can never be sure where the waves we create will go or how they will affect others. Therefore, all we can do is our best -- our best in trying to live consciously, love freely, listen attentively, and look closely as we move through our piece of the universe.

For me, this is spirituality and, although my filters and labels come from a Protestant tradition, clearly my beliefs pull from a variety of spiritual traditions, not just those we label as Christian.

Newman, I don't know if any of this makes sense for youm but I wanted to share a somewhat different viewpoint than has been previously expressed on the subject.

And, Newman, you said your birthday is next month. So is mine! I'll be 50 on January 9th. Certainly as we start the second half century of our lives, some introspection comes with the territory. It's an interesting discussion. :-)

Yesitsme
Member

08-24-2004

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 8:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Yesitsme a private message Print Post    
Newman, it sounds to me like you are at an exciting point of your life where change is about to happen. To me one of the things that makes us wise is the ability to look at ourselves and see both our strengths and our weaknesses. The fact that you are looking at yourself and saying "I made a mistake" is a great thing if you don't stall there. Where did you go wrong? How can you shape your life so that this side of your character doesn't come out again? How can you use this realization to change you for the better? Don't wallow in it... get out of the mud, shower off and go on!

I agree with the concept of "sin" that was previously mentioned that we are all at heart selfish and want to be in control. It's interesting to me as I get older that I see this rear its head in all shapes and forms. I know I am at root basically out for myself...however the window dressing looks...and it is good to know that about myself if it causes me to look below the surface and question my own motives. I have found that well-meaning people try to gloss over the gross parts of my character sometimes, when I need to acknowledge them and change some things. I constantly keep myself under my own scrutiny, to avoid the selfishness of my character. But you know, I also have come to terms with the fact that living unselfishly doesn't mean that I become a passive-aggressive wimp and that sometimes things can go my way! Being a martyr doesn't work well for me.

You can't attribute any certain behavior to all Christians. The one thing that all Christians have in common is that we acknowledge we are "sinners" and we need God. Beyond that, we are all very different. There are Christians I can't stand to be around. I think there are Christians that God can't stand be around (though you could debate whether these people are really Christians, I guess.) And conversely some of the most wonderful, kind, and special people I know and am proud to call friends aren't Christians.

On the prayer subject, I say we don't pray to change God but to change ourselves. Through prayer we acknowledge our basic lack of control and watch to see who God is as he works in the situation.

I always enjoy all of the opinions shared around here...some of you really make me think. And Newman, you specifically I really enjoy. Sometimes you drive me crazy, but most often you make me laugh with delight. I love that you question everything, because I am that type myself. I often wonder what is going on in everyone else's minds because I can't seem to turn off the over-analytical mind of mine and I know few people are like that. I can tell that often you just try to provoke thought in others and there is great value in that. Let up on yourself. Some of us value who you are right this minute....and will continue to value you as you, like we all (hopefully), change. Try to be a man you are completely proud of, but also don't think you have to achieve perfection!

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 9:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mocha a private message Print Post    
Ok Newman, I don't ordinarily do this so hold onto your socks... ((((Hugs))))