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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:53 am
Newman wrote "Right now I know my son doesn't want to hear other points of view. OK. I get it. " Do you want to hear other points of view? Sounds like maybe he learned some things from you. 
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:22 am
Karuuna, it was easy for Jesus to forgive others. He knew he was going to heaven and have life ever after. He had faith. Kearie, it's important because my son is putting himself in danger, UNNECESARILY, and for not a good reason. This war is NOT a noble cause. Those people have been fighting for 2000 + years and will fight for another 2000+ (if the world lasts that long) and someone as weak as George W. Bush is not going to change that. Karuuna, did you say to your good friend, after her divorce was final, "I told you so?" Probably wasn't necessary. You both were thinking it though, I bet. The part about loving without judging is confusing to me. You judged your friend in her marriage. You judged her decision there as bad. And then, two years later, because of a discussion you were having with your friend, she saw the light! You mattered, Karuuna. Your friend finally woke up out of the spell she was in and figured it out. I don't see it happening with my son and me. He was indoctrinated in the Marines at 18. That's why they take them so young. So they can mold them. Kearie, if my son had learned things from me, he would have loved baseball and have been a liberal Democrat. 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:25 am
I think children pick up habits and coping mechanisms rather than just interests and values. Newman, it sounds like your son believes this war is a nobel cause. He believes it and is ACTING on HIS belief. Can't you be proud that he stands behind HIS convictions.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:35 am
Newman...I'm going to go make you a folder and post something in there. A poem written by a Marine. Don't want to post it here because it might bother some people. But sounds like you and I have similar views on the Marines. Anyway...Look for it please.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:40 am
Just a gentle (and probably unnecessary) reminder that the same posting rules that apply to the general board, also apply to Member Folders. Thanks. 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:51 am
Thanks Jimmer...ya confused bug, you.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:53 am
Jimmer, speaking of folders, thanks for stopping by! Come on over anytime you feel like it! And thanks for the nice note. Hope you got mine also.
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Chewpito
Member
01-04-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:56 am
I didnt see Karuunas post as meaning that she was judging her friend, I took it as concern for her friend...I think there is a difference.. ? Somtimes you need to voice your concern, but let that person come to thier own conclusion.. But be there for them regardless.. so that they will know they have someone that will be there when they need them with out judging them..(nobody wants to hear "I told you so") I think that works with children as well...
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:04 pm
Karuuna, I thought your last two posts were beautiful and very touching! I wish more would come by and read them. Thank you!
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Cndeariso
Member
06-28-2004
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:22 pm
i see what karuuna did as caring for a friend. to me it would have been judging to have thought or said that the friend was stupid or something along those lines. it was my understanding that karunna felt her friend was making a mistake and told her so. karunna didn't say that if her friend married that person she wouldn't be their friend anymore. to me that is where the difference is.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:26 pm
Newman wrote..."The part about loving without judging is confusing to me. You judged your friend in her marriage. You judged her decision there as bad. And then, two years later, because of a discussion you were having with your friend, she saw the light! You mattered, Karuuna. Your friend finally woke up out of the spell she was in and figured it out." I don't think Kar was taking her friend's decision as her responsibility. Kar let her friend make her own mistake and chose to stand by her. I don't think Kar mentioned taking any credit for her friend changing her mind and later divorcing. Her friend agreeing or disagreeing wasn't the point. Who was right and who was wrong didn't matter. I'm not sure Kar's friend suddenly saw the light in Kar's words. She lived the life and learned by herself...as painful as it was. I'm not understanding where Kar's friend finally realizing she was in a bad marriage...means credit was given or taken by Kar for the change of heart. "Kar mattered because her friend saw the light"? I don't get that connection. I would suspect Kar matters for many reasons and not just becouse someone decided to agree with her. Sounds like Kar is a wonderful, loving friend.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:33 pm
In my opinion, this has a lot to do with control and respect. If we respect others, then we don't try to control them. We allow them to be "them." We can respect that they have different ideas, values, needs and wants. And what might be good for them or what they feel is right, just may be totally different than what we think. But, if we respect them and want to have a good relationship with them (whatever type of relationship that may be), then we should recognize that and let them be themselves, whoever God intended them to be!
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:36 pm
I am not so sure it was any easier for Jesus to forgive than for other human beings. He was human on the cross. He felt pain. I think forgiveness comes more naturally for some than others. I am not good at forgiving. In some cases I have asked God to forgive someone so I wouldn't have to. (I guess I think I can tell God who needs to be forgiven). I think we only hurt ourseves if we keep on blaming someone whom we feel we cannot forgive. Why keep reliving something and giving it renewed power. (Like old injuries and arguements).Why not let the past where it is.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:37 pm
Baby--- Very nice, clear way of saying it...thanks. Dog---So true, so very true.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:40 pm
You are very welcome! Some really good stuff here!
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:46 pm
I KNOW this sounds terrible AND trite, but forgiveness ain't easy and sometimes feels wrong in hindsight. Cuz sometimes when I forgive too soon, and I cannot forget the deliberate cruelties and meanspirited slights... I feel like I am complicit and accepting the cruel behaviour that was done to me. And that doubles the agony for me in the long run. It seems to validate (unfairly and incorrectly) that I was deserving of being treated like crap and saying, go ahead and poop on me again. I'll just turn the other cheek. To me, its just asking for more humilitation. And it does seem to give the perpetrators carte blanche to cheerfully continue as they were although perhaps with some subtle variations so they can delude themselves that their behaviour is not hurful anymore. And they do. (Mind you I am thinking of specific situations as I write this. I don't mean this as a blanket statement for all my grievances.) Once again, I am sorry if I am expressing myself too intensely, and being... ugly.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:57 pm
(((Mames))) I don't think you're being ugly.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:00 pm
The person I feel I cannot forgive is an uncle whom I liked and I was too young to realize was doing something he shouldn't have been doing with me. I cannot total forget it but I don't have to live with the memory today if I don't want to. I let judgement up to God in this case.
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Mameblanche
Member
08-24-2002
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:08 pm
Sniffle.... thanks Kearie. This discussion is really a difficult one for me. But I am helplessly drawn to it. Professionally I usually write 'fluff' happy-happy stuff so my readers can get enjoyment and perhaps a chuckle with the information. But here, I am dropping the mask and being as honest as humanly possible. Disdain is quite familiar to me... but for the positive, understanding strokes, I am grateful for that -beyond words. I figure that most of y'all don't know me, so you don't HAVE to be nice, just honest. So if you are kind I take it as genuine, and it is such a comfort. But I am a bit tired of weeping in this thread. And remember, its the kindnesses that touch my heart. (((Doc))) I am sorry you had to endure that with your uncle. I do wish I had your strength to let go somehow. I am lucky I have my dh who is great at getting to the root of a problem and seeing it clearly for me. Sadly, his advice is usually on the mark, but I was too optimistic to believe it, and then I get hurt, as he forewarned.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:08 pm
Mame, I agree with Kearie. I don't think you are being ugly, just stating how you feel. Those are your feelings and you are entitled to them. I believe when you forgive someone, you do it just as much for yourself as the other person. To me, it is very cathartic for one to be able to forgive others who have harmed us in some way. By forgiving, we allow ourselves to not have to carry that baggage around with us. By forgiving, I think we can move forward in our own lives in a much better and easier way. To forgive doesn't mean you allow yourself to be continually hurt by the other person. It doesn't even mean you have to let them in your life.
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:10 pm
For me, forgiveness centers on this part of the definition: "To renounce anger or resentment against." To forget, on the other hand would be, "To leave behind unintentionally." Forgiveness has intent behind it, while forgetting is unintentional. I can conciously choose to forgive; to forget is quite another matter. Forgiving was not something for me to give to my mom; it was something I gave to myself. I never verbalized to her that I forgave her. If I had, she probably would have gotten angry and asked me just what I thought she did wrong. ANd I definitely didn't want to go there! It also wasn't about being politicially, socially, theologically, or any other "ly" correct. It was about letting go of that anger and resentment so I could use the energy expended to maintain it in more positive ways. I know I quote him way too often, but Dr. Phil has so many ways of putting things that resonate and stick in my head, so here goes (paraphrased): You can't drive a car very effectively if you're only looking in the rearview mirror. That sums it up nicely for me. If I expend energy dwelling on things that hurt me in the past, then how can I move forward? Yes, I need to remember them and learn from them -- after all, they are significant in what made me who I am -- but I can't spend time looking in my own rearview mirror. Forgiveness is the way to put that mirror back into the small space it SHOULD occupy, where I can use it as a reference point while I'm primarily looking forward and planning for what comes next. "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." To me, that passage of the Lord's prayer is very significant. It says that I should only be granted as much forgiveness as I grant to others. It's the whole "karma is a boomerang" thing. The energy I put into the universe is the energy that comes back to me. Newton's Law, even. I choose to not put anger and resentment into my universal space. Instead, as much as possible (after all, I'm far from perfect), I choose to see good, to live well, to laugh often, and to love much. Because the more I do all those things, the more those things come right back to me. And that, to my way of thinking, is what resurrection and forgiveness is all about. Happy Easter. 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:13 pm
I think forgiving doesn't necessarily mean forgetting. We make a decision to trust someone and that trust is broken ... the friendship is damaged. You can forgive...but you don't have to trust again. The relationship may be irrevocably damaged ... but forgiveness can still happen. It's really difficult to forgive some things. I agree with Baby.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:14 pm
Max, That was a great post! It just totally made sense to me. Thank you!
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:16 pm
Well said Max ... great, clear post and I love the mirror analogy. 'tis the season of forgiveness.
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Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:17 pm
Well Kearie, you and I are just agreeing all over the place! How nice!! Yeah for us!!! Got to get to chores now.
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