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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:05 am
Seamonkey, I was thinking of that old saw, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." I've always been an "active" listener. I listen. I think the other is asking for advice, how to fix it. I offer suggestions. I don't know if I can learn a new skill at this age. It's possible if I put my mind to it. Still, I think it is more difficult, the older you get. Just being honest. How do I change the way I've always been? It's my style. It's me. It offends others. It's not helpful. Unless someone asks you, "what would YOU do" I think the best advice is to give no advice. It's complicated, and I realize I just read your first sentence up there, LOL. Think of examples. I'll tell a friend I'm having a problem with my frickin computer. He'll say, have you tried this, that? I'll say, hey, I never thought of THAT and be grateful (if it works!). Why is it different with personal relationships, girlfriends, feelings? It just is. Feelings trump the intellect every time.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:09 am
Agghhh, got up late. So many good thoughts and writers on this thread. Lance...yes. Yesitsme, the point I was trying to make is one of style. How do you change a way you've always been? I want to solve problems. Fix things. Be helpful. That is ME in a nutshell. And now, at 56, I have to learn to shut up and just passively listen? It is draining, Seamonkey. But he doesn't want just that (and I want to be a good friend, too). He wants me to be an engaged listener. Engaged. I guess that means don't say, "Yes dear, yes dear," while reading the paper. How can you be engaged and not offer suggestions? Do you see the problem? Late...
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:27 am
It is really hard to keep my mouth shut sometimes when someone is pouring their heart out. It is really impossible to understand what someone is going through because we have never experienced their problem and because, even on-line, when we think we are being totally honest and telling it all, there is so much left unsaid. So we can't really understand and just have to listen and hear their pain. To say anything could be very dangerous. There is a 21 year old woman on another board that I read every day. For the past year she has been letting us know that she is a cutter and also anorexic. She is in so much pain and self-hate. She said right at the beginning that she doesn't want our advise or our opinion, but just to hear her. She doesn't believe anyone can possibly understand what she is going through. She keeps telling us what terrible things she does to herself and how miserable she is. She tells us she wants to die most days because she hates herself so much......but she has never told us why she feels that way about herself or what brought her to this point in her life. It is so painful to read what she has to say....but at the same time fascinating. She thinks that we people on the board are her only friends. Nobody dares to breath a word of her need for help. She already knows she needs help but doesn't believe that anyone can possibly understand her. So far every doctor has failed her....but she is very poor and I'm sure that the doctors she has seen are not the type who have the time or knowledge to help her anyway. Cutting and anorexia go hand and hand and she is in a very deadly situation. I'm sure that if I told her what I was really feeling about her and her situation, she would go away and we would never hear from her again. She is in so much pain and all she can do is reach out to a bunch of stangers in cyberspace. So we listen to her and tell her that we are there for her whenever she wants to talk. It is all we can do and she depends on us to just listen. God, I worry about her.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:57 am
Omg I hate when people nag at me.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:12 am
Lots of amazing answers here! Thanks all for sharing. I guess for me the takeaway from this conversation is that we are all individuals. I know I've hurt people that I care about deeply by offering unsolicited advice when they really wanted a shoulder. That's when I learned to truly be attentive. If I really wanted to "help" them, and I do, I have to be aware of what they really need at that moment. Some people need to vent or to be understood so they don't feel so alone, a few (like my drinking friend) need a true kick in the pants, some are honestly seeking opinions to help them make their own decisions. And often I don't really know what a particular person is needing at the moment so I'm learning to ask when I'm not sure. Sometimes that feels awkward, and sometimes people like at me like I"m weird, but I'm getting very comfortable at saying - hey, I really want to support you in this moment, but I'm unsure how. Are you venting? Wanting to be understood? Or do you want some feedback? I figure it's better to ask than to misstep.
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Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:17 am
As a self-confessed caregiver, if someone is going through a difficult time, I want to help and that means giving advice and/or opinions (are those 2 always the same thing?). We do that here each every day, but when it comes to our friends and family, that don't always. I guess my circle of close friends is unique because we are all very similar personalities, so I know if I go to any of them with a problem, they are going to try to help and vice versa. We each know that that person may or may not use the information we give and that's okay. But I think we all also know each other well enough that we know when that person is just needing to vent and be heard. As for my family, it's not that easy. I am learning that we were not as open as I would like to think and the next generation is really start to make that unavoidable. I have two nieces and a son who do not seem to have inherited that gene. My just barely grown nieces say what they think and it's not always pleasant. I am the only one of their elders (did I really just say that) that will let them know when they are being rude, so sometimes I end up being the bad guy on both sides. But it makes me so angry at times to see my parents and sister accept their what can many times only be called disrespect. My son, who has also inherited the gene and learned to use it well from his dad, gets extra lessons from his cousins but doesn't understand why he gets in trouble from my parents and sister and his cousins don't. It is actually becoming quite a problem and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
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Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:36 am
Oops
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:59 am
Um, NT, are you asking for advise or opinions on how to deal with it? 
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Merrysea
Member
08-13-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:56 am
I know that when my best friend and I talk about problems, sometimes just validating that it's okay to feel the way we do helps tremendously. For example, she told me about a call she had from her stepson, and how bad it made her feel, and when I expressed my opinion that he was wrong for doing that, she realized that she wasn't responsible and it helped her tremendously. That was giving my opinion, but I didn't give her advice on how to deal with him. So yes, there is a difference between giving an opinion and giving advice; although, if you say, in my opinion, you should do this, the line blurs!
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Yesitsme
Member
08-24-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:56 am
Karuuna, I think you are exactly right. That's a great way to deal with people...even if they look at you weird. For one thing, it causes them to figure out for themselves what they are looking for and not expect you to be mindreaders. And then it takes a certain responsibility off of us that shouldn't be on us in the first place. Newman, I am not sure you need to change that side of you. While some people may consider it a negative, others will consider it a positive. So you are direct, and you want to help people solve their problems. There is nothing wrong with that in itself. Some people can't handle it or aren't ready for it, though, and you have to be prepared for the consequence of that. Sometimes we have to tone down some of who we are....that's part of living in civilized society....but I am not sure that we should have to do much of that around good friends. I definitely think you can change the way that you have always been....if you want to. I'm not sure you do. I don't think that being the listening and nodding type is something that you would really respect in yourself. Don't use the age copout... until we are dead we can change. But we should change when we know it is time to change...and when we are changing into something that is what we want to be. It sounds like this friend wants you to reflect him back to him. Not sure that is friendship or reality. But I also don't believe in giving up friends easily....I'd keep talking with him about it. Ask him if he is modeling for you the way he thinks you should be with him and to point out some examples in his interaction with you that illustrate what he is talking about so that you can understand a bit better where he is coming from. It may raise some interesting conversation.
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Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:04 am
Kar, good one. I really probably should have put in this in the venting thread. Actually, I know what I need to do - say something - but knowing and doing are two different things. I'm 47 years old and I don't remember respect or consideration being taught when I was growing up. It just was. It boggles my mind to see how the younger bunch talk to their elders (I said it again). I know some of them are taught to have respect because I've seen them talk trash to other adults, but when the parents are around, they are the best behaved kids in town. My 11-year-old is just the opposite. He can be great around other adults (I said "can" because he does have his moments), but there are times I want to put him through a wall (hypothetically) for the way he talks to me. However, I have to say that since the divorce and since he has seen that I don't put up with ex's verbal abuse anymore, he has improved tremendously.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:14 pm
Springer, I'm wondering why you keep reading that young girl's posting. If I were in your shoes I don't know if I could stop myself from making suggestions, trying to help. Why do people think no one has ever been in a situation that is similar to their's? How many billion people are there in the world? How unique do you think you are? Isn't there some idea that there are only X themes in all of literature (10, 15, don't know the number) and Shakespeare probably covered all of them way back in (what year? 1625?) Why would anyone think that anorexia is unique, or that a doctor or even a friend couldn't help with it? Is a cutter someone who cuts herself, like with a knife or razor blade? Why does she hate herself so? Why can't she learn to love herself or at least forgive herself? I think I would stop reading that thread, Springer. It sounds so sad...
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:40 pm
Karuuna, your last post brings up yet another problem. I started "mirroring" my friend. You know that psych technique. "What I'm hearing you say is ..." He didn't like THAT either! I see nothing wrong with that, myself. Maybe my friend is just anti-psychology? If I remember to, I'll try your technique, and ask him how I can support him best. Is he just venting? I think close friends or lovers just expect you to know what they want, expect you to be able to read their minds, and give them what they want at that moment. Another thought...do you give them what they want or what they need? What if they need a swift kick in the butt? No one wants that. We all want sympathy, a shoulder to cry on, someone who understands that life is unfair...
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:41 pm
SIV (self inflicted violence, like cutting) is very difficult to treat. But that girl is obviously wanting to be heard. It would be tough to just say nothing, but scary to say something in that case. She's probably been programmed to hate herself. Springer, does she say that the cutting is helpful to her, brings relief? Newman, I do think you can continue to learn new skills or gain new knowledge.. we have two 90 year olds in our knitting class.. But, one thing I wouldn't change is that you care for your friend and want to help and want to know how best to help.. listen? advise? That's something you don't need to fix, that desire to help. And yeah, I DO know how difficult it can be to not offer help or solutions! And I agree that within a romantic relationship it can be much more charged and difficult, at times. Karuuna, I think that is a great approach.. sometimes actually asking what the person wants, in a caring way, may just open them up or at least get them thinking just what they DO want.
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:47 pm
Newman, I keep reading her story because it interests me. The same way that this thread, you started, interests me. When I read a mystery novel, sometimes it scares the hell out of me, but at the same time, I can't put it down. I want to see what happens. The reason I mentioned it at all on this thread is because we are on the subject of offering advise. This woman has and is seeing doctors and going to therapy. They have the words and ways to help her if she can be helped at all. There are also a few others like herself that are communicating with her. As I said before, I know absolutely nothing about her problems or how it makes her mind work. It seems that it takes very little to send her over the edge right now. I don't want to see her shut down and stop thinking of us as her only friends. She clearly warned us about that already. The questions you are asking about her are the same ones that I ask myself, Newman. I am hoping that I learn some of those answers along the way. It doesn't depress me to read about her but it is very interesting. By the way, Newman, thank you for starting this thread. It has started some of the most interesting and amusing exchanges I have ever read at TVCH.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:51 pm
NT, there is that fine line between being rude and being honest, or direct. Having said that...I think you can tell when you cross that line. If you see your friend's face fall, you know you have offended him. That's a simple skill. Kids go thru a stage where they just want to shock the parents. You wanna be teaching your kids valuable lessons, like not being rude, that other people have feelings too (not just you) and that they count too. I'm saying that but I'm not sure I ever taught my kids those lessons. In life, in family situations, after working hard all day, sometimes if your kid is being rude or misbehaving you're exhausted and just snap at them. Hopefully you don't do my favorite (which I never did) , and hit them, spank them, all the time saying, "I hope this teaches you a lesson not to pick on someone smaller than you" (like their little brother).
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 5:53 pm
Seamonkey, Yes, she does say that cutting herself helps bring her some relief for the emotional pain she is suffering. See, I don't understand that at all and that is why I am so interested in her story. I want to understand and learn more about it.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:02 pm
Springer, You bring up a good point. I tell people in the "real" world that I don't read much, anymore. Novels that is, or books. But I do read quite a lot, actually, right here at tvch. And, like you said, it IS interesting. It's like an interactive novel. Or non-fiction book. I don't want to forget that every person who posts is a real live human being! We are all connecting, listening, thinking, writing, reflecting. It seems better than a novel or book to me because of the interaction. And when you get a thread going like this one, where people really care about each other, well, it feels even more powerful, more special. Again, I'm so glad Karuuna turned me on to this site. I consider it one of the best parts of my life. It is really a good thing for me. It sounds like it's good for others too, which makes me happy. A lot of times I'll say that "I was just talking about that issue yesterday with my internet friends, and the feeling that is left in the air is that "internet friends" aren't real people or don't count as much as your real friends in the real world. I want to rectify that impression, both with others AND with myself. This is a really good group of people here.
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:13 pm
I don't call people here my 'internet friends', I call them my friends.
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:16 pm
Newman, I agree, it is hard for some people to understand about our "internet friends". Sometimes you can't be as honest with your, what do we call them?, your live friends as you can here. It is sometimes harder to communicate in person too. It has it's downfalls too. One of my best friends husband started talking honestly to another woman on-line and it led to a divorce eventually. Funny thing is that my friend sees her ex-husband and his new wife once in a while and he doesn't seem as happy any more. Maybe he can't talk face to face with her either. Life is a funny thing, isn't it, Newman?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:17 pm
Oh Newman that happens to all of us .. people just do NOT get that an online community is a real community and that it very much counts! I just keep mentioning my online communities when it is a propos and after all this time some people really start to understand a bit. Springer, it is hard to get that part but I've had a few friends involved in SIV (cutting, burning, eating disorders, etc.,) and at least at some point it seems to be a way for them to have control or perceived control in a world where they feel very much out of control. It is almost always a fragile and tenuous balancing act and the hope is that they can learn new coping skills that work better and are less dangerous.
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:40 pm
Merrysea, that's the easy example. But what if you don't agree with her, that you take sides with the stepson? I'm thinking, from my latest experience with my dear friend, that it's best to just shut up. Not volunteer advice. But it's so hard for me to just shut up. I have opinions! I mean well. I want to help my friend. What if he's seeing it wrong? We're supposed to be older and wiser. We're supposed to learn from our mistakes, and not keep making the same mistake. If my friend gets defensive, well, communication shuts down. He won't listen. He's probably getting angry, steaming at me for not agreeing with him, for taking his girlfriend's side of the story, AGAIN! You don't want to get the other person on the defensive. But what if you don't agree? Just listen...in an engaged sort of way, whatever that means...
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:42 pm
Very interesting conversations tonight. I will be back in a little while to hear more. I am suddenly craving hashbrowns and eggs and have to run to the store for hashbrowns. Can't stop thinking about it. Yum!
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:44 pm
Online friends. I like that better than internet friends. Mocha, if you just say my friends, well, then my "real live friends" want to know who, since they know me and all my real live friends, ahhhhhgggggghhh. Springer, I guess this is something like the old barbershop or the taxi driver, where you can open up and talk to a stranger, the barber, and say stuff you might have trouble saying to your wife or friend. Off to a movie now...looking for that balance...may read a novel later tonite (not likely, but I do have 5 books on my bedstand, gathering dust, LOL)
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Merrysea
Member
08-13-2004
| Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:07 pm
Newman, there have been times that I saw the other person's point of view, and I would just say to her something like, "maybe that's not how he meant it, maybe he meant ..." and that would open her mind to other possibilities. I just usually don't tell her what to do, unless it's something like, "you should really be talking to your husband about this, and let him know how you feel." And this is not at all one-sided; she has been there for me through thick and thin. She usually doesn't flat out give me advice, but she will talk me through until I come to my own decisions, and I try to do the same for her. But it is a very special friendship!
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