Author |
Message |
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:17 pm
Jimmer, I understand what you are saying. As I said above, you may not always approve of their actions, but the love is still there. When my son went on his bike stealing spree last fall with a friend, I hated what he did and I was pissed off like hell at him, but I still loved him. He had the option of returning the bikes and apologizing or going to the police and confessing. Personally, I was scared to death that he would choose going to the police but I would have carried through with it because I do love him. He took the other option. You said something about when a person is making a life-changing mistake. What if it's not a mistake to them? Does that still make it a mistake? Many would consider my marrying my ex a life-changing mistake but how could it have been a mistake if my son was a result of it? Granted it was not my best decision, but to have my son I would do it again. As for your last example, I believe you do whatever you can to stop the person whether you love them or not. If you don't, you are just as guilty as they are. Could you still love that person? If the person is someone you have always loved unconditionally, of course. Unfortunately, there are some family members of people like the terrorists who completed agreed with and supported what they did.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:28 pm
My understanding is that Newman feels that the war in Iraq has resulted in the unjust killing and deaths of many people, both American and Iraqi. And yet many here seem to be saying that he should tell his son that although he disagrees with his decision to go to Iraq, that he respects his decision. At the same time people feel that family members of the 9/11 terrorists should have done everything in their power to stop them if they felt what they were doing was wrong. Based on what you are telling Newman, shouldn't the family members have told them that they love them unconditionally and that while they may disagree with what they are doing, they respect their decision? To me expecting them to do otherwise seems contradictory?
|
Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:59 pm
The main intention of the terrorists was to kill as many people as they could. Although there is the occasional GI Joe who has the same intention, I don't think the majority of our soldiers want to kill anyone. That want to protect and serve our country. I have spoken to a few soldiers who have been in Iraq and didn't kill anyone. But the look on their faces when they talked about helping people rebuild their country was priceless and every one said they would go back again. My dad was a cop and thankfully in his 30 years he never had to shoot anyone. But he didn't become a cop so he could. While I realize the the odds are much higher in the military than a police department (or are they nowadays?) and the police only shoot bad guys (most of the time), in both jobs they know there is a very distinct possibility of having to use deadly force. While it's a part of both jobs, it's not the whole job.
|
Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:59 pm
Read the last sentence of your 7:48pm post, NT. He doesn't "need" to go to Iraq. We don't need to be there. Jimmer is right on my wavelength with his 7:48pm post. The 9/11 terrorists had families too. Sure it's an extreme example, but it does explain my dilemma. Of course I still love my son. But respect his decision??? I can't HONESTLY say that I do!
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:13 pm
No one is saying respect his decision, we are saying respect his RIGHT to make his own decisions based on HIS beliefs, values and truths. We will never always agree with our children's choices, but we need to respect their right to MAKE them when they become adults. This also means they are responsible for those decisions also. Their decision aren't always a reflection of their parents. Progressive thinking would have never happened if people didn't allow change of ideas and disagreeing of opinions. Is this war illegal? That is a matter of perception. Our government condones it so he is NOT breaking the law. Many people in this country agree with this war. That doesn't make them bad or evil people, it just means their values are different then mine and that is okay. I can't force anyone to change or see things my way, but to try to do so, pushes people away. Many of MY Truths aren't truths for other people and I can accept that.
|
Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:13 pm
NT, he's going to be trained as an artilleryman. His job is to drop the bombs on the bad guys and kill as many of them as possible. Jimmer and I see it the same way. I'm not a good liar. Never have been. I can tell him I love him, but how can I lie and say I respect his decision when I don't? It's not like he chose to buy a Dodge Stratus instead of a Toyota Corolla!
|
Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:26 pm
Newman, who says your son doesn't need to go to Iraq? You do, correct? What about those who have a different opinion like you son and so many others? Are they all wrong and only you and those that agree with you are right?
|
Lancecrossfire
Animoderator
07-13-2000
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:27 pm
Newman, are you related to Rabbit? LOL Your comments about agreeing with you sound very much like what Rabbit has said for years. (Yes, I know you were joking around ) I don't have an answer for you about respecting your son's choice to include himself in the war. We all have different lines for things like that. I give you kudos for being honest about what you can and can't do concerning that. I know you are passionate about such subjects. Gone are the days where we fight wars such that you have to be looking in the eyes of your enemy that could strike a blow in order to kill him.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:13 pm
Are all the people who disagree with Newman's opinion wrong? Well unless I'm mistaken, Newman thinks they are, just the same as some people here think that Newman is wrong. There is nothing wrong with that – there is a difference of opinion. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with trying to help others see a situation the way you do and vice versa as long as it is done in a civil manner. This kind of exchange of ideas is how people learn and grow.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:36 pm
When I disagree with Newman's opinion I don't think he's wrong. I accept that his opinions are opinions just as my opinions are opinions. Neither is wrong. They are just different. I can accept that other people disagree with my OPINION and I don't feel the need to make them agree with me. I don't feel the need to convince them that I am right and they are wrong. I hope to gain understanding and I hope to share my understanding. Maybe we can both learn...if we both listen with the intent on understanding...rather than the intent of being right. I think part of any effective relationship, be it friendship or parent-child or spouses...is to understand the ... that includes understanding their opinions and WHY they have them. I don't think Newmans opinion is wrong, but I do think his behavior of pushing his son to agree with him, is harmful to his relationship with his son. Does Newman try to understand why his son thinks this war is right? I'm sure his son has reasons for going to Iraq. I bet he is just as passionate about "fighting for our country" as Newman is passionate that the war is illegal. Neither is right. Their opinions and values and perceptions are different. That's part of life.
|
Baby
Member
01-08-2006
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:48 pm
I guess I try to keep an open mind and listen to other's opinions and views that differ from mine on a given subject. I realize that I may feel one way and someone else may feel totally the opposite way. I know I am not always right and therefore I try to listen to what others have to say and take into consideration their thoughts. And, yes, that is how I learn and grow..by being open to an exchange of ideas with others!
|
Mamapors
Member
07-29-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 10:53 pm
I have been reading about Newman's son going to Iraq for days now, and how he disagrees with his decision and has told him so. He doesn't respect his decision and can't lie to tell him he does. I know what I would do. I would chain my son in the basement until he saw it my way. And I mean that. There is no way I would let my son go to Iraq and possibly get killed without putting up whatever fight I had in me. Please Newman, keep trying to change his mind.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 11:22 pm
When ArReal told me she was volunteering to go to Iraq, everything inside me screamed "NO!" She knew I was against the war. She knew I thought it was illegal. I could have approached her a this way... 1) "ArReal, how can you do this. You know this war is illegal. How can you volunteer to go kill innocent woman and children? I thought I taught you better than that. This is just crazy ArReal. You have a family, what if something happens to you. You could get killed, or mamed... then what? I won't let you do this. I won't let you ruin your life. I'm not going to let you go to Iraq. If you go to war you'll be no better than the terrorist killing innocent people. I won't let you do this." I don't think the above is helpful or encourages someone to listen. Approaching someone that way puts defenses up immediately...which instantly closes down the lines of communication. Insisting an adult follow your orders or rules degrades them. Makes them feel like you think they are stupid and incapable of making a decsions. No one, especially our kids, want to feel that. I think there are much more postive ways to approach the issue than insisting you're right and they're wrong. Ways that build relationships, rather then tear them down. This kind of appraoch is not respectful of the other persons right to make mistakes
|
Mamapors
Member
07-29-2004
| Monday, April 17, 2006 - 11:33 pm
They may be mad, feel degraded, feel stupid and the communication may be permanently shut off, but if they finally saw it my way it would be worth it. I really don't know how any parent of a soldier makes it through a day. My heart and absolute admiration go out to you. I would try any way I could to make them change their mind. I would start out being positive and respectful, but I would stop at nothing to try and get them to see it my way. That is not how I manage the rest of my life, or my dealings with other people. But if my only son wanted to go to Iraq, I would do anything to stop him.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:08 am
What if..."They are mad, feel degraded, feel stupid and the communication may is permanently shut off"..and yet they went to war anyway...would it still be worth it? How much control do we really have over anyone else's (adults) decisions or values? We have NONE! As parents we may have INFLUENCE...but never control...and to think otherwise, or expect otherwise...is harmful to both parent and adult child.
|
Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:03 am
Kearie, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Of course I have no time... Opinions. Right vs. Wrong. This is the crux of the discussion. I can understand why my son is volunteering to go to Iraq. He was brainwashed by the Marine Corps when he was 18. I get it. I don't have to like it or agree with it. I don't call this an illegal war. I call it a stupid war. If Jimmer punches me in the mouth and my response is to punch Lance in the mouth (just because they know each other?), does that make any sense to you? Me neither. Osama hit us on 9/11. Bush's response was to attack Saddam! Does that make any sense? Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with September 11. Osama is still out there free... Some opinons are wrong. Some people used to think the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth. Science has proven those people WRONG. Late for work...
|
Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:12 am
I am proud of our service people. If they want to go I will pray for them. Is the only "war" we have to worry about in Iraq. Almost every day in the local paper it is reported that a young person has been SHOT over some drug deal gone wrong. Are we only in danger when we leave our country? A twenty one year old just killed 6 members on his family (3 of them children) with a hammer. A grandmother didn't like the family dog (she said her grandsons were allergic to it) so she covered the dog in gasoline and set it on fire. The dog ran back into the wood frame house and the house caught fire killing the two young boys. How many people die each day in the United States at the hands of drunk drivers. And yet, what do we see on CBS news, a picture of a young military person who just died in Iraq (with obligitory sad music playing in the background). I would rather die for a cuase I believe than die in an accident. Just tell me once you don't agree with what I am doing. Once is enough. Telling me more than that is treating me like a child. I am not.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:48 am
Newman, thanks for your faith in me, and believe me if I thought it would be successful I would talk to your son. But I also know I am not very good at convincing people of something if they don't already have some inclination to believe it. I certainly couldn't convince my best friend to not marry the wrong guy! If I were a parent, and I could not talk my child out of being a marine or soldier, and he went to war, I don't know that I would ever sleep while he was gone, except when I was so exhausted I couldn't stay awake a moment longer. And if something happened to him, well, as Dr. Phil says, you might as well just haul me to the dump, because I'd be useless. Having said all that, I also know the futility of trying to make someone see things the way you do if they are set on a different course. I've found that once I've said my piece, if they are still in opposition, the best thing to do is to continue asking them why they are doing what they are doing. The only way in is to stop trying to persuade and focus on understanding. I also know from my experience that the more you try to convince someone they are wrong, they more they convince themselves they are right. You only polarize them more. Better to listen, better to stop the debate, because you only achieve the exact opposite of what you had hoped for. Newman, that your son first listened to your 'rant' and then hardened, tells me he may have doubts. But by being "right", you often close off discussion, and end any hope of better understanding. It's frequently only by putting aside your need to be right that real communication and growth can happen. The worst possible scenario to me is to have both people obstinantly "right", and then the other dies. Believe me, Iknow that regret. I would rather say to my son that I have trouble seeing the sense in this war, and that I think it was a mistake. But I deeply respect that YOU see it differently. Because I love you, I do not want this to come between us. I will withhold my judgment, and hold my tongue, so that we can continue to be close during this difficult time, and I can continue to support you as best as I can. Do I see this war as "wrong"? Yes. But few things are ALL wrong. I can see the other side as well, as Kearie well put it. Those who are going are not just brainwashed; they have values too. They believe in what they are doing. Even the Iraqis have mixed feelings about it. Some feel liberated, some feel things are worse. How can we be so arrogant to say we know what is best (whether it is war or no war) for them? That's how I could support him. Knowing that things are often grey, I could find the good in this too. And then maybe get a script for sleeping pills while he was gone. And uh, valium, and whatever else I needed to get me through the night.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 6:58 am
Jimmer, I imagine that perhaps some of the families of the terrorists did support their decision. It's a different culture, and terrorism is often the poor man's war. The terrorists saw good in what they were doing; and perhaps some of their families did as well. I certainly do not see it that way of course. As I said above, if someone I loved were off to commit a crime against someone else, or against themselves, I would stop them. That IS an act of unconditional love. I love you enough to stop you from doing this harmful thing. It is the same I think in domestic violence. The abused spouse says "I can't leave, I love him/her!" And I say, to allow him/her to continue this behavior is not an act of love. To love them, you must say "I will not allow you to continue this destructive behavior." Love does not mean letting someone do whatever they want, even if it is harmful. At the same time, you must be realistic. It is not illegal for a young man to join the armed forces and go to war. You cannot call the authorities and stop him/her. If his/her mind is made up to go, you can only decide how you will react to their going. You can say if you do this, I am out of your life. Or you can say, I do not believe in this war, but I believe in you and your right to choose freely as an adult. I think this is a mistake, but I will contine to love you. I will write you letters and stop lecturing. I will send you care packages. I will pray for your safety. And I will be here when you get back, because when I brought you into this world I made a lifelong commitment to stand by you. And so I will. These are difficult issues to sort through as a parent, I know. But we raise them as best we can, and then it's up to them to make their own lives. Personally, even if I disagree, I am not willing to break the relationship. Much like my friend, there may come a moment when she saw it my way, and she needed someone who loved her unconditionally, and who would not say I told you so, while she tried to put her broken self back together. If you are not there during the difficult time, it would be very difficult for your young returning soldier to turn to you when they need help recovering from their nightmares. Personally, I'd rather be here the whole time, and give up my need to be right.
|
Merrysea
Member
08-13-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 7:36 am
Newman, I agree and disagree with much of what everyone else has said. I was a bit luckier than you in that my sons were younger during the 2000 election (my two older sons were in high school - the oldest was a senior), and I was able to make them see what Bush was like before he was elected, so they didn't fall prey to the recruiters like so many of their friends did. When it comes to love, I have heard it said that a mother's love is the closest thing to God's love. To me, that means I love my children no matter what they do. I don't always respect their decisions, but I love them. I can understand loving a child who has committed murder, but that certainly doesn't mean I would respect their decision or their reason for doing so. If it was my son going to war, I would certainly try to talk him out of it. If he was intent on going, I would still love him, and I would make sure he knew that I would love him no matter what. But I wouldn't respect his decision for going (in this particular war), and I wouldn't tell him that I did. I would just leave the whole issue of respect out of it. I would just tell him that I love him and I wanted him to come home safely. (And I'd probably cling to him and try to physically keep him from leaving, and I'd definitely cry a lot!)
|
Cndeariso
Member
06-28-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 7:58 am
opinions being right or wrong, that was how it was with my dad. he didn't believe that two people could have different opinions and both be 'right'. it you didn't believe exactly as he did then you were the one that was 'wrong'. i have never believed that way. my opinions are shaped by my experiences and perceptions as are others shaped by theirs. even with that said it isn't that cut and dry. i could come up with a thousand extreme examples that would contradict what i just said - like the person that kills their parents believes they did the right thing and society opines differently. i'm not talking about those cases. i'm talking about everyday life and challenges. it was very hard to talk to my dad anyway as he treated me as a child up until he died. but, having an opinion about something different than him made it even harder. he was so adamant about his opinions on life, love and living that he told me in front of the rest of the family that if i believed different than him on certain issues that he would disown me and never acknowledge me again. that is not unconditional love. that is conditional ownership in my way of thinking. and, it hurt deeply to know that my dad would disown me for believing in something that he didn't.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:04 am
I like the way you said that Merrysea. Give him your love but don't say that you respect his decision if you don't. I hope there is no confusion about what I said earlier. Obviously I think that what the terrorists did on 9/11 was terribly wrong. And it is certainly possible that some of their family members supported them doing it. However, just to be clear, I am focussing on family members that did not agree with what they were doing. Family members that thought they were making the wrong decision. Should they have tried to stop them? I think that they should have. From the point of view of the American Government, there is nothing illegal about the Iraq war. Similarly, from the point of view of the terrorists, there was nothing illegal about what they did. Now one could argue that the terrorists attacked innocent civilians who had done nothing to them. However, unlike in much of history where soldiers fought each other, in the last hundred years or so war has frequently been carried to the civilian population. I know I'm repeating myself but it is important to me so I think it is worth repeating. I truly hope that everyone understands that in no way am I condoning terrorism. I think that their families should have done everything in their power to try to stop them. People have also suggested that if you don't support your son or daughter's decision, you will feel bad if something happens to them. But isn't the opposite also true and perhaps even more so? So I think it is okay to disagree with your adult son or daughter (and by extension indicate that you don't respect their decision) as long as you are clear that you love them and care about them. The best way of disagreeing with them in order to get them to see your point of view, is another topic.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:10 am
The problem with saying that an opinion is an opinion is that for some extreme examples, it is clearly evident to the vast majority of people that certain opinions are simply wrong. I won't cite any examples, as I'm sure we can all think of some. In fact, I believe in Canada, that it is actually illegal to express certain opinions. I don't know if the same is true in the United States or not? I'm not comfortable with certain opinions being illegal. I believe that people should be able to express their opinion even if the majority of people disagree with it. I also believe that while there may be many different opinions on certain subjects, all of which have some validity, I also believe that for some subjects there is a right and a wrong opinion.
|
Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:54 am
Jimmer, same is not true in the U.S., and I was recently very shocked to find out that expressing some opinions in Canada is against the law. I always thought Canada had pretty much the same almost absolute freedom of speech as U.S. citizens.
|
Cndeariso
Member
06-28-2004
| Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 8:57 am
while expressing one's opinions here in the US is not illegal, it may make one a subject of an investigation by the Feds if they don't like what you have to say.
|
|
|
|