Author |
Message |
Mameblanche
Member
04-13-2005
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 6:14 pm
Thanks Dahli! I appreciate your supportive comment more than you will ever know! 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 6:14 pm
Well said GRANNY. I agree that we all have faith in things. We have to, to ever make any kind of plan for the future. Could the word faith be interchanged with trust? Newman, I don't think I could answer your question about how God could reject us...without giving a lengthy sermon...based entirely on my opinions and understanding. I don't think anyone wants that. There is no easy answer without faith and trust.
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Springer
Member
03-12-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 6:19 pm
What if God created the world, and then just stepped back, gave free will to everyone, and stepped back. He will not interfere or intervene. Period. He created the world and that was that. I think that is a perfectly fair view of God. Newman: The above statement, that you made earlier, is exactly how I view Gods plan. He created a perfect world and what happens next depends on how we use the gifts he gave us.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 7:02 pm
Rabbit, that's an excellent question, for which I do not have a simple answer. It is quite likely that God is a supra-bunny for all I know. However, I will think on this and see if I can put my understanding into words. I suspect it will sound similar to what I recall Max posting in this thread a coupla days ago.
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Babyruth
Member
07-19-2001
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:23 pm
Back when I was trying really hard to believe, to "get" what those with faith have (and the comfort and peace of mind it seems to bring), to be able to let go of rational thinking and just take that leap... the closest I came to any of that was really close to what Max and Kar have described so far. But I never have been able to somehow achieve that...(not for a lack of trying/letting go/studying/asking, etc). I finally accepted that whatever that eureka moment is, that leap of faith, that suspension of disbelief, that understanding, well, it's just not happening for me no matter how much I want it to, and I am just pretty much an agnostic through and through. Accepting the realization of who I am has made me happier and more relaxed, a very similar experience to when I realized and accepted I'm gay and don't fit in with the majority in that respect, either. May seem like an odd comparison, but it felt the same to me. I don't know how ya'll do it, but the belief in God thing just isn't me. But I am happy for those of you who believe and live your beliefs in your actions.
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Twiggyish
Member
08-14-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:25 pm
I see faith as being very personal.
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Native_texan
Member
08-24-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:45 pm
Missed Chance A massive flood hit a small town near the Mississippi River. One levy in the river had broke, causing the flooding to occur while another levy was predicted to break in the hour. A man who owned a house along the river stood on the roof of his house as water had engulfed the rest of it. Water levels were slowly rising. A rescue boat came to save the man from his house. The boat approached and the rescuers told the man another levy was about to break and the water would move over his house, sweeping him away to his drowning death. The man told the rescuers he did not need help because he believed in God and that God would save him. Twenty minutes later, the rescuers returned, trying to help the man escape. Once again, the man waved off the rescuers saying that God would save him. Ten minutes afterwards, the rescuers returned again, saying it would be the last time they could return because the levy was about to break. They asked him one last time to get on the rescue boat. He said once again that he believes in God and God would save him from the levy should it break. A few minutes after the rescuers left, the levy broke and the rushing waters engulfed the house, carrying away the man to his drowning death. When the man reached the Heavens, he stood at the gates to enter. He told the men at the gates that he wanted to see God. When he saw God, he asked, "What happened? I thought you were going to save me? Why didn't you save me?" God replied, "I did try to save you. I sent the boat three times."
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:48 pm
Karuuna, I didn't mean to come across that I view science as God. On the other hand I believe more in science than I do in God. I know it's none of my business, Karuuna, but I was wondering if you could volunteer more information about your concept of God. You say you believe in God. I ask why? Later you talk about having faith...or your faith. Words, words, words... Kearie, I'd like to argue with Granny's wording. She has faith that the chair will do it's job. Jimmer does too (unless it looks rickety). You say that you trust the chair to hold you up. Me? I expect the chair to do it's thing. I have plenty of expectations but no faith. Again this gets back to that pivotal question. Why do some people have faith in God and others don't or aren't sure? It's been a good thread, good discussion. Glad I had a day off to keep up with it.
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Herckleperckle
Member
11-20-2003
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:55 pm
Newman, I'd think you would really enjoy reading Steambath by Bruce Jay Friedman.
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Rosie
Member
11-12-2003
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:56 pm
Too bad Tobor isn't here to get in on this discussion.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:16 pm
I asked earlier...can the word faith be changed to trust? What's the difference between the two? Isn't faith just a word to say you trust a higher power? Trusting the "book" of that religion. Semantics. How is the word expect much different? In marriage, you vow to be faithful...you expect your partner to be faithful, you trust they will and you have faith they will...otherwise you probably won't get married.
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Marysafan
Member
08-07-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:37 pm
I have been hesitant to chime in here because I do not live alone, but the conversation seems to have veered of course somewhat. To answer your question as to why some people have faith and others do not...I think one thing could be personal experience. For example Escapee states above that she believes that God doesn't give you more than you can handle. But I have personal experience to the contrary. The spring before I turned 10 on May 21st which happened to be my parents wedding anniversary, the phone rang with the news that my aunt had given birth to her 5th son. The oldest had just turned 5 on May 15th. Not long afterwards, the phone rang a second time to tell us that my aunt's heart couldn't take the strain of another childbirth...and she died. Clearly, she was given more than she could handle. I have seen this play out many times over in my life...so that every time I hear someone say that...I have a very negative reaction. I have known or seen too many people who have either died, lost their minds, or committed suicide because they had been given more than they could handle. If you hadn't had that experience, then you are more likely to believe something different. Like you Newman, I can't believe in an all wise and all knowing, and all seeing God who cares about each and everyone of us. It just doesn't make sense. My logical mind won't accept it. It started when I was in high school. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic church believes that during the course of the mass, the bread and wine is transformed into the body and blood of Christ. One Sunday, during the course of the mass when the bells rang to signify the transformation...I knew that I didn't believe that they actually had been transformed. I was a "good girl", a very obedient child who sought to please her parents...and to not believe something that my family...my ancestors had believed for centuries...caused me great turmoil. People say that we have a choice as to what we believe. Given that choice, I would choose to believe...but in my heart, I just don't. I couldn't believe that the bread and wine was transformed any more than I could believe in Santa Claus. So I know from personal experience, that what we believe isn't just a matter of choice. After that I started questioning other matters, like if those who believe and are baptized will go to heaven....well, then it's lucky I was born where I was then, and not some remote village in China. That poor child doesn't stand a chance. Why would God do that? It just doesn't make sense. Therefore, I can't believe. I just can't.
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:14 pm
Marysafan, To me what you are saying is you can't believe in religion and its trappings. For me, that's separate from faith and belief in a higher power. FWIW, I don't believe the bread and wine transform, either. And I can't believe that only those who follow a particular religious philosophy are admitted to 'heaven' or whatever the next good place is, either. Heck I don't even believe in heaven as a concept of a place, so there you go! As I've said before, there are lots of religious folks who would run me out of their church on a rail. That doesn't mean I don't believe in God, it simply means that I don't believe the way they say I should believe. I believe in a personal God and the way I believe is also personal. I don't expect or need anyone else to believe everything that I do. 
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Mameblanche
Member
04-13-2005
| Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:58 pm
Marysafan... I also don't live alone, but this thread pulled me in too. Welcome to the club. If we do get run out of here ;) ;) I doubt it will be because we aren't single. LOL. Max said: I believe in a personal God and the way I believe is also personal. I don't expect or need anyone else to believe everything that I do. ....... Exactly. Max exudes confidence and serenity in her beliefs and doesn't feel the need to try to convince anyone of anything to continue to practice her faith in her own way. That kind of thinking is progressive and peaceful. IMHO. Brava.
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Adven
Member
02-06-2001
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:07 am
At the end of the day, we are a speck of sand on an infinite beach. How the beach got there or whether it was created by a conscious entity is unknowable and will likely remain that way. As will whether that entity, if It exists, has any particular expectations of our specific grain of sand. There could be a God in a religous sense who is responsible or there could be a mischievous, omnipotent red armadillo responsible. The possibilities are endless. As for science, it is not the enemy of religion. It just tries not to be swayed by religion or what we might like to be true. Science is simply the search, imperfect at times, for quantifiable, provable fact. If religion has a down side, it is that it tends to say it has the answer and to distrust anyone who suggests otherwise. At this stage in our development, science is still just trying to understand our own speck of sand. The beach itself is left to anyone who likes to speculate.
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Vacanick
Member
07-12-2004
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 6:28 am
Wow, well put Adven. Thank you!
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:10 am
Kearie, semantics IS the word. Faith supercedes all other forms of that word. Has more power in my mind. The chair is a good example. I'm sitting on one now (actually I'm on a big exercise ball, full disclosure, but you know what I mean). I assume the ball will hold me up. It has for a year now. It's real, tangible. I can feel it, experience it, touch it. I can't do that with God! I took a course recently about Islam. They were calling Christians "people of the book". Muslims seem to be more of a word of mouth religion, although there is the book, The Koran, which my teacher said is almost "unreadable". We all have experience with books. Some are fiction. Even first hand accounts can be wrong. The DaVinci Code opens up more doors to questions. Was Jesus married to Mary Magdeline? Were some gospels kept out of the Bible for "political reasons", to subjugate women? It's not like God wrote the Bible. People wrote it. Men. Look at today. Everyone has an agenda, a point of view, or something they are selling. It's hard to get the straight truth anywhere. It all has spin on it! You assume your spouse will be faithful. When you get married you both plan on being faithful. Then life happens. Fights. Scar tissue. Annoying habits from your mate. Then you meet a new person at work. Aren't we a much better fit, have so much more in common, blah, blah, blah...
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Newman
Member
09-25-2004
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:26 am
Herckle, what's Steambath about? Mary, I concur. Earlier I used the term "science" as something I believed in. I like your semantics better. "It's not logical." Why would an all knowing, all loving God condemn half the world to hell, China & Africa for example, just because they never heard about Jesus. It makes no sense. It's not logical. So Max, you are a "cafeteria Catholic"? You pick and choose what you want to believe in and what you don't. A la carte. Organized religion gives you the entire buffet. But as an adult I realized I don't like cooked carrots, don't like liver, don't like eggplant. Hmmmm...I'm TORTURING this analogy, LOL, Bush would be proud. If the wafer and wine don't ring true, if being baptized doesn't make sense as the only way you can get to heaven, then maybe the whole damn thing is a fairy tale, like Santa. I mean it's a nice fairy tale. Be good. Treat your neighbors with love and respect. Don't steal or kill. All nice things. But you don't have to believe in God to be nice. You can do it, like I try to do, because it's the right thing to do. Has nothing to do with a "higher power" or life after death. Again science is something that is proveable. You can run experiments. Bunsen burners. Hypothesis. Intelligent design is another attempt of the far right wing to foist it's agenda on the rest of America. I resent it. It's not science. Teach it in philosophy or religion class. That's fine. But don't confuse it with science.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 7:59 am
It seems to me that mostly what folks are talking about here is a specific concept of God, and particularly a specific religion or what particular religions "say" about God. I don't have much faith in religion. Religion is like the clothing humans put over God, God made in our image. It is not God; just as your clothes are not you. Not all religions buy into wafer transformed into body. Not all religions think that you must believe a specific thing or say specific words to be "saved". Love isn't logical either, as most of us have experienced. But do you *believe* it exists? Can you see it? Can you test scientifically to see if I love my son? Or do I just know that I love my son? Can you prove it? What makes something "right"? Why is being nice the "right" thing to do? Who said so? Some people obviously *believe* that being nice isn't the right thing.... The point is, we all pick and choose our beliefs. Some of those beliefs include a belief in God, some don't. I can only say that I don't believe God exists, I know God exists. I was a strident atheist up until the time I died in my mid 20s in a hospital in Pittsburgh. That experience changed my thinking. Yes, I know, there are some "scientific" hypotheses for much of what we call near death experiences; but they are not proven. We truly don't understand much of what the brain does and why. So that's how I know. Your mileage may vary, and that's okay with me. 
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Mocha
Member
08-12-2001
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:21 am
Like I said earlier I'm not religious I'm spiritual. I was baptized and raised Catholic but I do not follow their teachings anymore. I also grew up in the Baptist church. I think maybe I've taken what works for me from both. Max, great post. Yours too Adven and I'm surprised at it.
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Dahli
Member
11-27-2000
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:24 am
I wonder if anyone here has yet seen the film ..... "What The Bleep Do We Know" ??? If not, I would HIGHLY recommend it, if for nothing else to see how the discussions about much of this would have a terrific but much different angle... "an enlightened new paradigm" http://www.whatthebleep.com/
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 8:36 am
One of my all-time favorite films Dahli!
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Max
Moderator
08-12-2000
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 9:53 am
Adven, great post! Dahli, I love that movie. It really makes you ponder things and try to think "outside the box."
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Babyruth
Member
07-19-2001
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 10:54 am
I enjoyed that film, too. (we bought it) There is an excellent companion book, too.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 11:07 am
Karuuna...I liked your post. I think religion is very different than faith. I see faith as very personal and spiritual. Religion is organized and full of rituals.
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