TVCH FORUMS HOME . JOIN . FAN CLUBS . ABOUT US . CONTACT . CHAT  
Bomis   Quick Links   TOPICS . TREE-VIEW . SEARCH . HELP! . NEWS . PROFILE
Archive through April 17, 2006

The TVClubHouse: General Discussion ARCHIVES: 2006 Mar. ~ 2006 May: Baby Boomers, Living Alone, Changing Habits (ARCHIVES): Archive through April 17, 2006 users admin

Author Message
Cndeariso
Member

06-28-2004

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cndeariso a private message Print Post    
forgiving oneself is the hardest of all to do. once you are able to do that all others are a piece of cake.

one should never forget even once the forgiveness has taken place. to forget would open yourself up for the opportunity to be hurt again.

at least that is how i feel about these issues. i totally understand that not everyone feels as i do.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Happy Easter Max, and y'all. :-)

For me, Passover is all about remembering the past and learning from it, appreciating where you are at the moment, (this too shall pass), and holding fast to a positive objective.

I love you analogy about the rearview mirror. I think that you do have to scan behind you, and what surrounds you, but of course its more important to focus on what lies ahead of you, your destination!

Its just that sometimes by prematurely forgiving for the sake of forgiving, the problem still perpetuates, either because the other person doesn't know they are being forgiven, so for them ignorance is bliss. OR they do know and take it as acceptance that what they did wasn't so bad after all. Sometimes I do carry on and forge ahead, like the happy-go-lucky little optimist I am most days. And then things come back to bite me in the butt. And I regret and resent my situation all over again.

I hope I'm making some sense here. I am quite tired as I went to sleep VERY late last night.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:14 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I think you are making sense Mame. What I think you are saying is that some people forgive too early before they are ready to. They may be sincere at the time they forgive or they may be doing it because they feel it is the right thing to do, but later on the resentment or hurt comes bubbling back. This can be confusing and additionally hurtful both to the person doing the forgiving and to the person being forgiven.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 2:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Thanks Jimmer. Big hugs! Its nice to be understood. :-)

Dogdoc
Member

09-29-2001

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 4:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dogdoc a private message Print Post    
I forgive all you people that wrote such interesting and informative and thought provoking posts that I didn't get my yard work done.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 4:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
LOL Doc! You just made my day. ROFL!

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 4:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Bless you Dogdoc!!!

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 6:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Newman, I didn't judge her in the sense that I would not give up on her. I knew I had made many mistakes in my life and would continue to make many more. I chose to support her decision even though I thought it a terrible mistake, and if he became violent, possibly a life-ending mistake.

If I played any part in her "seeing the light" it was because I held an image of her in love that she had almost forgotten. I was able to remind her of who she used to be, and only because I had not judged her before and was not judging her then - only loving her, flawed and human and perfect just as she was.

I would be scared to death if my son wanted to be a soldier. It's hard enough for me that he plays football! And even harder that he likes to hunt (I'm a vegetarian). But I've found that I can be proud of him being proud of himself, even when he does things that I find abhorrent (like shooting rabbits, ugh!). In my way of loving him, I will never decide who he will be - he gets to decide, and that's my job, to help him learn to make his own decisions, not mirror mine. Hopefully there will be enough commonality to keep us close; but I will be most proud of him if he grows up to be what makes him happy. If he decides what will make him happy is to be the best hunter and football player he can be, well, that's more hard work for me, but I'll do it because I love him.

Thanks to all of you who found some value in my post.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 6:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I just want to say also, that I am often bluntly reminded of how short life is; and how important it is to live each day truly as if it would be your last, or theirs.

I never made peace with my father or brother before they died. I did not anticipate their deaths to be so soon. I thought there would be time.

When I have an annoyance with someone, I ask myself if this is the last thought I would want to have of them, and them of me. It's often very orienting to me.

Today at church, I was reminded again, of how frail and unpredictable life is. A young woman whom I had always liked and been casual friends with died in her sleep on Friday night. She was only 36 years old and not in ill health that I knew of. She had two children, 5 and 10, and a husband, all of whom are deeply in shock.

As my heart breaks for them, I remember again that I would rather mend relationships, love not judge, and choose peace and healing over being right. I don't ever want another loved one going out of my life with our last time together being one that I would regret. No matter how right I thought I was.

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 6:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
Well, then forgive me too.. cause we were half way to my sisters, about 100miles and my car went amuck...my windshield wipers and heater/defroster/fan all that stuff just stoped working...If I had been near a shop,(possibly its a fuse) or maybe somthing worse..but its raining fiercly outside and I made a decision to turn around and come home..avoid sitting at the side of the road.. will check it out tomorrow on monday.. I was so bummed out, but im over it now... I just took all the easter cookies that I made all fancy to a neibor to give to her kids and family...and 10mins later they came to my home with huge platter of carnitas/home ade chile/spanish rice and beans......Oh,I feel so lucky to have good neibors.....so Im home with my daughter and a couple of her gal pals, watching Bad News Bears..(well they are) and sitting at the computer.. Easter didnt turn out the way I wanted, but its not so bad... Ive been reading all the posts and they have been great... Im happy we have each other to share with, cause somehow I think we all have alot to share.. Happy Easter every one!!

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 6:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
(((Kar))) Your post just really made me want to give you a hug. Amen to your post. Thanks.

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 6:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
Karuna, I am so sorry to hear of your young friends death, It just reminds me of what you said, Life is unpredictable and I have been reminded of that alot in the past few yrs...Its best to live each day the best you can, even a bad day-may be your last...so do the best you can.....all the post above have been wonderfull and I am thankfull for you all....

Yesitsme
Member

08-24-2004

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 7:08 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Yesitsme a private message Print Post    
Oh, so many lovely posts. What great minds you have!

Max, I loved that definition of forgiveness. I think people think that forgiveness means forgetting the wrong and pretending it never happened, and I don't believe that. It's taking the power away from the wrong and those who wrong you. You get to keep the wisdom that you gained out of the situation, in fact, you regain all of you. They no longer own that part of your emotions that controlled some of who you are.

Mameb, I think that maybe you have such a big heart that you tend to forgive and forget....you want to resume the relationship like the offense never happened. I love what Max said about not even needing to verbalize forgiveness to the person you forgive...it's just not necessary because it is more about you. It should come as a result of personal strength and not personal weakness. It never, ever says "I am forgiving you, so that makes what you did OK. Go ahead and do it to me again." I don't think turning the other cheek means stand and let someone pummel the crap out of you. I think it is sometimes that you challenge the person to think through what they did to you and make another choice in the future and sometimes you run in the other direction and have nothing to do with them ever again. There are lots of choices and you have to make the best decision for you in whatever situation you are in.

Karuuna, beautiful examples of friendship. I love that you tell your friends the truth, then let them make their own choices. I think that is the model of adult friendship. Man, how sad my life would be if I only had friends that agreed with me. I have friends that agree with me on most things, others that don't agree with me about much. I have friends that have it all together and friends that live on the brink of mental illness. I have friends that are mature and friends that got stuck somewhere in childhood and can't get out. And I have friends that are almost the same people they were 20 years ago, and others who have changed into whole new animals. I love them all and they all add great color to my life.

And Karuuna wasn't judging her friend....she had an opinion and she gave it. And didn't hold her hostage with it. That's what a friend does. Judging would be laying down the verdict and consequences, holding their "crime" against them....like, "you disagree with me about how you should live your life, and refuse to do what I advised, so I will act huffy and a bit distant and we just may not be as good of friends in the future. Thus says your wise and all-knowing friend."

Newman, was it really easy for Jesus? He knew that he was going to have to endure great pain for stuff he didn't do and for people who didn't deserve it and wouldn't appreciate it. I doubt that was easy. I think knowing it would make it worse. I would have whined throughout my whole life and then run away and refused to go through with it all and told God that they all deserve eternal damnation. But that's me.

Seriously, I know you are in great pain over your son. That has to be one of the scariest things a parent could go through. But he knows what you think about the war about him serving...and it was important that you tell him. Once. So for now, even if it is trivial, just talk to him. As his dad, you need to keep the lines of communication open. As much as my parents have made me crazy at times in my life, still they are the people I trust the most in the world. They are my anchors. My guess is that he feels the same way about you, whether he admits it or not. He's made his decision to go.... do all you can to make sure he goes with a clear mind and the knowledge that while you disagree with him, you love him completely. Talking about sports may seem trivial to you, but maybe that is where he hears "I love you." My guess is that he doesn't hear it in "You're wrong." That doesn't change many of our minds, whether the person who says it is right or not.

Lancecrossfire
Animoderator

07-13-2000

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lancecrossfire a private message Print Post    
Newman, I think you are selling yourself short about what your son could/woul have leaned from you. Parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids--it's a life long process and there are lots of things taught.

Some are very specific, and some are very basic such as it's not right to take something from someone. In the end though, it's up to the person what they do with what they are taught.

Some of the information is followed--some is not. I am betting your son learned some very good things from you. :-)

Karin, so sorry to hear about your friend from church. :-(

Listening without judging--a very tough thing for most of us to do. It's a great skill to have though--there are a lot of friends who would appreciate having a friend who can do so.

Newman, back to going to war. I agree with you about this war--and feel that no war is NEEDED.

He is willing to stand up for something though--something important to him. It's perfectly normal for a parent to be worried about someone going to war. I'd be wondering if you weren't. Hang in there though.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
(((Kar))) So very, very sorry about your friend.

Lots of weighty food for thought from everyone here in the recent posts. (I said meaty but don't want to offend any vegetarians. wink) Time for me to back off and do some more reading and thinking here, and less blabbing for now.

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 5:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Dogdoc, liked your post about the yardwork. :-) as usual. I'm not as forgiving as you. Sometimes I don't come here because I don't have the time to read the posts. I blame our good posters ;)

Kearie, now I have to figure out what a folder is? Grrrrrrrr, you're making me figure out how to use this whole site??

Only have time to respond to Karuuna. Your 6pm post, first paragraph, confuses me. Words again. How do you figure you "supported" her decision? You knew she was making the wrong decision, marrying that guy, just like I know my son is making the wrong decision. That's not how I use the word support.

Proud? Again...words. How can I be proud of my son, who will soon be trained in artillery, dropping bombs on other people, killing other people? Proud of that? I want him to be the best killer he can possibly be? I don't think so. If it makes him happy to be a good artilleryman, that is NOT going to make me happy!

This drifts into unconditonal love. And judging. I'm happy that my son is going to school, trying to get a degree. I judge that to be a good thing. I judge killing rabbits and people as being a bad thing. Call me old fashioned. I can't give approval (which is what our kids so desperately want) for that!



Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Newman, I supported her by continuing to be her friend, standing up at her wedding, and *accepting* her decision, even though I felt it to be a mistake and was worried for her well being.

Much like you could accept your son's decision, even when you disagree. You could say, I love you and I respect you. I don't agree with this war, but I know it makes you proud to serve in this way; and I won't reject you for doing what you truly believe is right. To do what you believe in is a good thing, an admirable thing.

I'm not proud that my son is a hunter. But he is proud of himself. And I can feel good about that for him. I can encourage him to hunt it responsibly, and to be careful and safe. He knows I don't approve of hunting, but he knows without a doubt that I approve of HIM!

What your son is doing is legal and admirable from HIS point of view. He has a right to his point of view. But if you close off the lines of communication about this issue, you lose all influence, much as I would with my son if I just said "hey, hunting is wrong, bad, evil. How could you do that?"

I'd rather we keep talking. About everything.

Vacanick
Member

07-12-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Vacanick a private message Print Post    
Perfectly put Karuuna! I especially like "he knows without a doubt that I approve of HIM!" That's unconditional love, no matter what.

Cndeariso
Member

06-28-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 8:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cndeariso a private message Print Post    
newman, here is a direct link to *your* folder kearie made for you:

Newman's folder


Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
Wow!!! I've had some catching up to do.

Kar, I'm so sorry about your friend, but maybe if it can make you feel better to know that a new little life came into the world on Saturday. My son became an uncle of a 3 lb 10 oz, 16.4 inch baby boy. He's two months early but, considering the circumstances of his arrival into the world, is doing extremely well and has already "graduated" to another section of NICU.

By circumstances, I mean his mom was told she was not in labor and was sent home. She felt what she thought was the need to go to the bathroom, pushed and baby fell into toilet.

I looked at that tiny little creature (with his daddy's huge feet) and for a little while, my problems didn't exist. Heck, I was even in the same room with the ex for a few minutes and we were civil.

Newman, as I was reading your posts, it struck me that it seems it's very important to you that people agree with your opinions. That was a big problem the ex and I had (NO! NO! NO! I am not comparing the two of you because you are willing to listen). Anytime I (or anyone else for that matter) disagree with his opinion he takes it very personally and considers anyone who dares to disagree to be stupid. And heaven forbid you don't take his all-knowing (there's not anything anyone has done that he has done bigger and better) advice about anything. Just ask his kids. What he can't seem to grasp is that it drives everyone away from him and he is continually having to find new friends.

If we don't each live our life the way we see fit (within the legal and moral limits), we are living a lie and we are going to be very unhappy. There are things my son enjoys (hunting being one them, Kar) that I don't, but if I forbade him from them just because it's not something I enjoy, he would be a very unhappy and resentful person. Just because I am against any kind of war did not mean that my stepson could not enlist in the Navy. It was something he felt the need to do and I fully support him in it.

Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Native, why do people have children? I suppose there are many reasons. My vague dream was to pass on my passions, which were baseball (or sports in general) and being a liberal, asking questions, finding truth.

Baseball is a dying sport. I can accept that. Today's player has to shoot themselves in the ass with a syringe full of steroids in order to succeed. That hardly seems attractive.

But this stupid war. To volunteer to be a part of a bad war?! Aggghhhh...

We're talking about my sons here. Not strangers in an internet community, people I will never meet, or co-workers at the post office. I expect people to see how awful Bush is, and his policies, but they are not my responsibility. They don't have to agree with me. And if they don't, on this (a deal breaker for me) then I wouldn't date them.

NT, to me this is an opinion writing site. I write opinions. I gather information all day long listening to the radio, agreeing with some points of view, disagreeing with others. I have 56 years of life experience too. I write my opinons. I don't talk about the weather...

I'm not passionate about every issue. I try to only write about things I care about. I don't write about eggplant recipes or cars or interior decorating or how to make a killing on the stock market.

I was trained in journalism (took some classes) to have a point of view and state it clearly and concisely. Don't be wishy washy. That's what I try to do here.

I'm sure I come across as a know it all, NT, especially to you peeps who don't really know me. Is it my fault that I'm so smart? I'm just trying to share all my knowledge to help make this a better world.

And YES it's important to agree with Newman. Remember, that still is Rule #1. "It's ok to agree with Newman." It is allowed, in fact it is encouraged!


Newman
Member

09-25-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Newman a private message Print Post    
Karuuna, it seems very clear to me that you are much better at this than I am.

I read the start of your post, got to the I love you and I respect you, but that's where it all falls apart for me. Words. The truth is that I don't respect his decision to put himself deliberately in harm's way, to delay his education for a year, and to actually be involved in killing people!

It's a civil war, Karuuna, and I know you know. Both sides are bad! It's Saddam's old group of bad guys who want their power back vs. Fundamentalist Shiites, the guys who drove the planes into the Twin Towers. No matter who wins we lose!

It's not like WWII where he would be fighting the evil Nazis, trying to prevent them from marching the Jews into the ovens!

Karuuna, what about if you intervened for me. Send my son an email or call him up. You're very good with words. You would think of the right thing to say or write. You could get him to change his mind, whereas he is simply tuning Dad out!

Payment? I could give you cold hard cash or I could promise to stay off the Grey's Anatomy site for one whole year! We all know the occasional misery and discomfort I've caused you there.

Whattya say? Deal? Or no deal?!

Please???


Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 7:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Gulp!

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 7:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I think I understand what Newman is saying about unconditional love, respect and support.

I have trouble with the idea of unconditional love. I know what it means but I'm not sure that I could apply it. For example, I watch people standing by their son or daughter after he or she has committed a horrible crime, sometimes even against another sibling and I wonder how that is possible? I have no idea what I would do in that situation.

I also have trouble with the idea of unconditional respect and support. If you truly think that someone is making a life-changing mistake should you tell him or her that you disagree but that you support their decision? I guess the most extreme example is someone who breaks the law.

But what about someone who is planning to go kill people for what you consider to be an unjust reason? What if you were a family member of one of the 9/11 terrorists? Would you say, I disagree with your decision but since you have thought this through, I support you in the decision that you have made?

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 7:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Native_texan a private message Print Post    
Newman, I don't see you as a know-it-all (well, not totally). If you thought you had all the answers, you would not be asking questions.

Let's say your son came to you and said, "Dad, I will stay out of the military if you will vote a straight Republican ticket in 2008?" Would you be willing to go against everything you believe in?

You asked why we have children? I don't know. To perpetuate our species? To achieve a type of immortality? Because our bio clock is ticking? I was 35 when I finally had my son. I had dreams for him. He was going to be the smartest kid in his class and he was going to love to read as much as I do. He was going to graduate magne cum laude from college. I even dreamed that he would be the to being about world peace. What I got was a child who is ADHD, bipolar and dyslexic who is in the 5th grade reading at a first grade level. He was hospitalized 3 days after his 8th birthday because he was becoming a danger to himself and others. He takes 6 different medications (Tom Cruise would faint). Everytime caller ID shows the school phone number, I cringe because 9 times out of 10 he's in trouble.

Did I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that my son was probably not going to fulfill my dreams? You bet.

Do I love my son any less because he has not lived up to my dreams? Absolutely not.

Do I still have hope? Sure. I will never put limitations on what he could accomplish because that would be telling him I have no faith in him.

I know I probably haven't answered your question, but what I'm trying to say is that while I may not always be happy with his actions, I love my son unconditionally. On the other hand, his dad is the type of person that will not even speak to his kids if they don't do as he thinks they should and then he whines about how they don't have anything to do with him.

Newman, forgive me right now if what I'm about to say is way too harsh. You may not like what your son is doing but he's your son. Your son knows how you feel about the war, but he needs to know that your love for him is stronger than your hate for the war. He should not leave American soil thinking that your love for him is in any way diminished because he didn't listen to you. If he is injured or, God forbid, worse, your regret is going to be much greater than his. I know I will include him in my prayers along with my stepson and every other soldier who is doing what they need to do.