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Archive through December 18, 2004

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: 2005 Jun. ~ Aug.: The Cheap Seats: Sports and Entertainment ARCHIVES: NBA: Archive through December 18, 2004 users admin

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Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 12:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
It seems to me we needed a place to discuss the NBA season since we're already into it by a few weeks. But worst of all, I'm inspired to start it because of that mess last night in Detroit.

What a disgusting debacle that was. I watched ESPN replaying the fight over and over again. So much blame to go around. Those fans should be ashamed of themselves. But Artest and O'Neal have to be professionals, IMHO, and not have enough personal restraint not to go into the stands. And then make it worse by giving fans round house punches on the court.

Ben Wallace too. I love him as a player, but he needs to check himself, even if he is more innocent than most of the actors in this stupid drama.

It's a huge black eye on the NBA. What's next? A moat and fences like European soccer games?

Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 4:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
OMG!!! I don't think I have ever seen anything like that! I am just stunned.

Goddessatlaw
Member

07-19-2002

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 5:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
For the most part, with one notable exception, the only people I felt sorry for in the whole thing were the people in the stands who did NOT take part in starting the altercation but wound up getting caught in the middle of it. Sick enough, I really didn't have a problem with Artest going after the guy who nailed him with the drink. He deserved a righteous ass-kicking, and just because you're a million dollar player in a hostile arena doesn't mean you aren't human and experience all the emotions ANYONE would with that kind of public humiliation. I mean, I would slap the hell silly anyone who ever threw a drink on me in private. Amplify that emotion by the humiliation of having it aired on national TV, and I don't think the best of us could have expected to react much differently than Artest. HOWEVER, I'd have to say most of the people who got punched out last night probably had nothing to do with the first salvo that caused him to go into the stands. And what was Stephen Jackson doing up there? I know some of the other Pacers were trying to pull them out of the stands, and then they got beat on by the crowd.

To highlight how bad things really got, Germaine O'Neal, who is a gentle giant of a professional, was provoked to the point where he even punched out a fan who was on the FLOOR trying to beat on Artest. It was kind of fabulous seeing 6'11" of elbows and *ssholes bowling down this drunken idiot who thought he would introduce 12 extremely large professional athletes to his fists. I feel sorry for O'Neal, though - Artest is known for being easily provoked and although he TRIED initially to do everything he'd been told to keep himself out of trouble, the end result isn't that much of a surprise. O'Neal, however, is known for his tolerance and professional behavior - very mature for a young man. And he will wind up suspended, too, no doubt.

The entire situation was just - interesting. I suppose I wouldn't say that if I were in the middle of it, but it was a spectacular example of how fast things can get out of control and how difficult it can be to assign blame when one incident escalates into another and another. It's impossible to say who behaved worse - the players or the fans. I'm leaning toward the fans after watching security try to pull the Pacers out of the arena and having them all pelted blind with drinks and ice.

Ben Wallace started this entire situation. Had he not reacted violently to a hard foul, everyone would have gone home without much to say about the game. Artest is at fault for making himself a prime target for that sort of provocation - because everyone knows he will react. To his credit, he tried like hell to contain himself and not do anything to get himself in trouble with the NBA. In days gone by, he and Wallace would have just squared off at centerfloor and had themselves an Ali and Frazier type situation. The drink coming out of the stands and hitting Artest square in the face is what really sent things off the Richter scale. If this is what happens to opposing teams in Detroit, Detroit should have no more home games.

Officials, security, fans, players - you pick 'em, they're all at fault to some degree or another. Mostly I'd say the NBA in general is at fault for failing to prevent this situation before it occurred. Of COURSE you have hostile fans - they pay out the wazoo for seats, parking, food, drinks. All they want to see is a game and they get rolled coming and going for the privilege. They're pissed off before the game even starts, and then they get drunk. Stop charging so much and cut off the alcohol. OF COURSE you have talented players who are notoriously unable to contain their emotions. Don't let them play until they prove they can handle themselves without violence.

Having said all that, please let me emphasize that while I'm a Pacers fan, I am not a fan of Ron Artest. For all his amazing talent, he is anything BUT an asset for our team in the overall analysis. I do think however that he lost his mind for cause last night. I can't think of but a few others around him last night who had the same justification.


Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 11:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, it will make any fight on Christmas between Kobe and Shaq look like child's play. Saving a surprise guest appearance by Suge Knight, that is.

How upside down is the world when Rasheed Wallace's response is one of the most reasonable? And why did Artest think it was a good idea to commit a hard foul with only 45 seconds left in a game that was out of reach? What the hell were the police thinking when they threatened to use pepper spray on, I think, Artest? How pathetic are people who rain beer, soda, and popcorn on players who are doing their damdest to leave the floor? Including Reggie Miller [UCLA alum], who wasn't even dressed for the game? It's people like Miller and Larry Brown I feel sorry for.

Most of those fans should never be allowed back into an NBA game.

Lycanthrope
Member

09-19-2002

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 6:14 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That was some wild stuff the other night.

If you remember, a similar incident between the Texas Rangers and the Oakland A's fans occurred in September. Felony charges were filed, and then dropped against Frank Francisco of the Rangers. It'll be interesting to see what charges come out of this situation.

Wallace, Artest, Jackson, and O'Neal were all suspended indefinitely Saturday. The police, and the NBA are going to look at the tape from every angle before deciding what action to take.

Crazy, crazy stuff...

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 8:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
All of those fans involved should be charged with something. Espcially the one who threw the chair. Fan = Fanatic

Bob2112
Member

06-12-2002

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 9:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Is there any way possible for all of the Bulls to be suspended for the rest of the season?

Please?!?


Legalboxer
Member

11-17-2003

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 10:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
thanks for the humor Bob

did anyone see sports reporters today - i think that opening segment was the best i have seen in 5 years - and i am so happy Lupica spoke up so much about how ridiculous the blanket statement by the other man was - you cant just say that all fans hate all professional athletes -

i also liked what the sheriff said on outside the lines today - how police are humans too - and they get yelled at and things thrown at them etc but they have to go thru training etc to learn NOT to fight back - yeah they want to defend themselves and not let others disrespect them but if a cop ever attacked someone for yelling at him or throwing things at him, we all would be in an uproar about the cop's reaction - we have a right to defend ourselves if we are in danger of actual harm but i think cops, athletes and all others have the responsibility and ability to not use physical violence when it is a case of disrespect or throwing objects like in Friday - that fan that threw the beer should and would be taken from the arena and charged with battery - but that is how you deal with the situation - if someone threw a cup of beer at a cop, would we condone the cop's behavior if he rushed at the person and hit him - i guess its a case of two bads dont make a right - everyone involved should be held responsible for their actions - the fans and the players - and we do need to remember that we dont know how we would react if put in that situation - but i do think the athletes have no right to attack the fans, just as no one has that right to attack someone just because they disrespected you - there are other ways to put people in their place besides by the fist - unfortunately the players that went into the stands didnt think of those options.

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 3:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Ron Artest has been suspended for the rest of the season! Wow. Other players have serious penalties, too...Jermaine O'Neal out for 25 games, Stephen Jackson for 30, Anthony Johnson for 5 games. For the Pistons, Ben Wallace is out for 6, and a host of players on each team is out for one game.

Harsh penalties. But probably deserved. Here's the ESPN story about the suspensions

Reader234
Member

08-13-2000

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 3:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
NEW YORK (AP) -- Ron Artest was suspended for the rest of the season Sunday as the NBA came down hard on three members of the Indiana Pacers for fighting with fans when a melee broke out at the end of a game against the Detroit Pistons.

Overall, nine players from the teams were banned for 143 games, including some of the harshest penalties the league ever issued. Artest is the first player to be suspended for nearly an entire season for a fight during a game.

Indiana's Stephen Jackson was suspended for 30 games and Jermaine O'Neal for 25. Detroit's Ben Wallace - whose shove of Artest after a foul led to the 5-minute fracas - drew a six-game ban, while Pacers guard Anthony Johnson got five games.

Four players were suspended for a game apiece: Indiana's Reggie Miller, and Detroit's Chauncey Billups, Elden Campbell and Derrick Coleman.

All of the suspensions are without pay.


AP story

I will find this interesting as it will sure end up in the courts

Ketchuplover
Member

08-30-2000

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 5:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think that fan(the thrower)should stay in jail until Artest plays his next regular season game!

Whoami
Member

08-03-2001

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 5:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Every time I see this on the news, all they talk about are the penalties and charges that should/will be taken against the players. Here in Denver they're talking about an upcoming game, and how to do damage control on the public relations angle. Everyone is worried about how the NBA, and their image.

I haven't heard one word yet on what (if anything) they plan to do with the fans who got into it as well. I was so disgusted watching that footage. People gleefully dumping beers and stuff on the players as they were dragged out of the arena. Do these people not know the concept of being a grown adult?

Kappy
Member

06-29-2002

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 7:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
As sickened as I am by the actions of the players, I am much more sickened by the action of the fans. And the NBA is too profit driven to do anything about the fan behavior. My

Beachcomber
Member

08-26-2003

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 3:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Heard a report from a fan on a national radio show who said he was at the game on row 12 behind the bench. He said that the guy in the film footage that is grabbing Artest from behind (wearing the blue Piston warmup shirt with Wallace on the back) is the guy who actually threw the beer to start the melee. He said the guy who got attacked (wearing black shirt) had 2 cups in his hand and was innocent.

Beachcomber
Member

08-26-2003

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 5:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Article on guy who threw the beer:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3938054/detail.html

Seems like he is no stranger to the law.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 7:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
either way those 'fans' are gonna sue and make a lot of money, which sucks

I bet tons of lawyers were calling them right after the game

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Arrest warrants requested for Indiana players ESPN

Five Indiana Pacers players and five Detroit Pistons fans were charged Wednesday in one of the worst brawls in U.S. sports history -- a melee last month that broke out on the basketball court and spread to the stands.

NBA players Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, David Harrison and Anthony Johnson were all charged with one count of assault and battery, a misdemeanor that could bring three months in jail and a $500 fine. Jermaine O'Neal was charged with two counts of assault and battery.

The five fans were charged with the same offenses. One of them, Bryant Jackson, 35, was also charged with felony assault -- punishable by up to four years in prison -- for allegedly hurling a chair.

The fight broke out Nov. 19 during a game against the Detroit Pistons after an on-court dispute over a foul. A fan tossed a drink at Artest, who then charged into the stands and began beating a man he thought had done it.

Among the fans charged was John Green, the man accused of throwing the cup. [...]

this looks like it's going to drag on for a good, long time. and now Latrelle Spreewell has been suspended for a game just for requesting that a fan perform a sex act! what is the world coming to?

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Monday, December 13, 2004 - 3:06 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kobe Bryant. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

It was bad enough that he manipulated and maneuvered behind the scenes to get Shaq ousted. And that he did the same thing with Phil. And that he turned the Lakers into a soap last season with his rape case. And that he got annoyed with the Lakers during that whole rape escapade for not giving him a private plane to his liking--he wanted a better one than they provided him! And lest we forget, he told the police in Colorado that maybe he should just pay the woman off to get rid of the matter because, he said, that is what Shaq does. He said Shaq has paid a million dollars to make these things go away.

He later managed to annoy Gary Payton. And now? Now he says he is mad at Karl Malone for making a pass at his wife. As usual, Kobe made the most mature decision possible: he called Malone's house and talked to Malone's wife about the matter instead of asking Malone himself what happened, or telling him to go to hell, or whatever else he might want to do. It's the perfect portrait of Kobe in a nutshell. It's been repeated so many times it has finally become believable. Make the wrong decision and blame others.

Even though I'm a transplanted Angelino, I have never embraced the Lakers. And, in fact, I have never liked Shaq or Malone much, either. But, since basketball is not terribly exciting until the playoffs, and since the regular season has turned out to be a tune-up to post season litigation, I think I have learned something about Kobe this year.

If the Lakers don't make it to the NBA finals again for many years, they will get what they deserve. They made a deal with Kobe, which at this point seems to be only somewhat better than making a deal with the devil.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 9:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Frankly I could care less about Kobe and his drama.

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 1:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Vince Carter has been traded to New Jersey for Alonso Mourning, Eric Williams, etc. Sounds like a not very good trade for Toronto.

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Friday, December 17, 2004 - 7:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
oh really? wow ... is Mo playing with that kidney?

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
JORDAN RULES COMPARED TO KOBE
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041217

Kobe Bryant is a little more gifted athletically than Michael Jordan was.

Kobe is a much better pure shooter. Kobe has risen into Michael's rare air when it comes to making great late shots. Kobe is a little taller, and just as quick and strong. Kobe plays with as much nightly energy and passion as Michael did, even on defense.

You can argue that Kobe is a little better looking. Kobe definitely is a more polished speaker. Kobe can be almost as charming as Michael, when he feels like it.

So why won't Kobe Bean Bryant ever realize his dream of being the next Michael Jeffrey Jordan?

Because the same Kobe who is invincibly confident in his strengths is astonishingly unaware of his weaknesses.

Because the same Kobe who can be so worldly and bright can also be so sheltered and dumb.

Kobe doesn't get it. Michael always did.

When I was writing columns for the Chicago Tribune, I studied Michael, and got to know him a little. Michael arrogantly strode through many of the same mines that are exploding around Kobe. Michael wasn't the best husband after hours. Michael punched out two nice-guy teammates during practice -- Steve Kerr and Will Perdue. Michael ran off a coach, Doug Collins, in part because of their soap-opera feud. Michael was often at war with an opposing player or the Chicago media.

Yet many of these potential bombs went unreported because Michael never lit the fuse by answering questions about them.

Amazingly, Michael did not step on one mine, while Kobe all but plays hop-scotch on them. No matter how many risks Jordan took, he maintained a superstar-next-door image that hypnotized male and female consumers of all ages. It's as if Kobe, who so desperately wants to be loved, is hell-bent on committing image suicide.

Michael played the media as street-smartly as he played basketball. No matter how many stories circulated among reporters about Michael's carousing, none hit print. That's because Jordan was far too shrewd to answer questions that were even slightly controversial. Bring up anything personal with Michael, and a reporter might feel as if he were about to get punched out. Michael can be truly dagger-staring intimidating. Kobe, with his new tattoos, can only act intimidating.

Some of the raw, real Michael first surfaced in Sam Smith's "The Jordan Rules." Yet Jordan refused to comment on the book, which CAME! and went. A woman claiming to be a former mistress of Michael's sold her story to the National Enquirer as Michael wound up his career in Washington. But he had no comment and the story did no damage.

Many NBA sources believe Jordan took many more risks than Kobe has. Yet not once was Jordan accused of rape. Michael, from the tough side of Wilmington, North Carolina, has razor-sharp survival instincts. Kobe is still pretty much a spoiled-rotten brat from upper-crust Lower Merion, PA.

Kobe would have made a great coach-firing rock star of a tennis player. Unfortunately, the game he chose requires four teammates.

Michael's marital problems briefly hit the papers, but Jordan defused them. His wife, Juanita, has always managed to avoid the cameras and the spotlight. Many Michael fans wouldn't know her name or her face.

Kobe's wife, Vanessa, has become almost as recognizable and controversial as her husband is. Michael married a virtual saint. You wonder about Kobe's choice.

So how would Michael have handled the mess in which Kobe found himself with the teammate he called a "big brother and mentor," Karl Malone? The same way Kobe tried -- and failed -- to defuse it. Vanessa claimed Malone made a pass at her in near-full view of courtside fans at a Lakers game. Kobe flew into a jealous rage -- just what Vanessa wanted? -- and called Malone to tell him that if he ever so much as looks at Vanessa again ...

We know this because we read all about it.

Kobe said the Malone camp, led by agent Dwight Manley, began leaking details of Vanessa's claim to the media. Kobe said several reporters asked him about it, on and off the record, and that he refused to comment. Wise idea. So why did the story explode onto the nation's water-cooler stage?

Because Los Angeles Times columnist T.J. Simers, one of the few reporters Kobe trusts, asked Kobe about the rumors. Kobe, who prides himself on being a stand-up guy, acknowledged them. Then Simers called Manley, who cut loose with the juicy details.

Image suicide. A kid who can be so stubbornly aloof and private spilled his dirty laundry all over America's floor. Astoundingly, the bridge had been burned between Kobe and Malone, the one respected player who had always had Kobe's back, on the court and during interviews.

Yet on Wednesday, it was as if Kobe woke up and saw something in the paper that made him think that, Gee, maybe some people are getting the wrong idea about me. I'd better go on TV and correct that!

He contacted ESPN and spent "Five Good Minutes" on "Pardon the Interruption" and the entire half-hour of "NBA Fastbreak." Michael never addressed the media unless he looked like a billion dollars in trend-setting suit-and-tie ensembles. Kobe wore a warmup top. Michael never would have subjected himself to potential controversial questions on live TV without being thoroughly coached by his advisors and completely prepared to respond with convincing, crowd-pleasing answers. Kobe, who thinks he's above coaching, made himself look even worse.

Why hasn't he called Shaquille O'Neal to apologize for telling Eagle, Colo. police that Shaq has paid hush money to women?

"I didn't have his number," Kobe said, lamely.

At least Kobe could have explained that, when the authorities interviewed him shortly after the alleged incident in Eagle, he was scared and not thinking straight and he blurted something that he never thought would be leaked to reporters. But no.

No game plan. No clue.

How would Michael have handled a shot similar to the one Seattle's Ray Allen took at Kobe during the preseason? Allen questioned Kobe's leadership because Kobe, he said, was too selfish. Michael Jordan was the most selfish gunner in basketball history. But Michael was coachable. Michael learned from Phil Jackson -- the coach who finally gave up trying to coach Kobe -- that he needed to bring out the best in his teammates and the worst in his rivals.

Michael would have flown into a joyful rage over Allen's blast. If Michael didn't have a feud with a rival player or coach, he invented one. Michael needed a reason -- real or imagined -- to teach his most dangerous rivals a lesson.

Yet Michael taught his on the scoreboard. Kobe gets even in the box score.

Tuesday night's game in Seattle was the be-careful-what-you-wish-for essence of the Kobe who wants to prove He Alone can win without Phil and Shaq. Kobe got even with Allen by turning into precisely the player Allen said he would be -- a self-absorbed superstar who considers teammates necessary evils at best. Kobe's sole goal was to outscore Allen, which he accomplished, 35 points to 26.

But Allen's teammate, Rashard Lewis, scored 37. Kobe's teammate, Lamar Odom, scored eight. Seattle won 108-93.

Michael's sole goal would have been to humiliate Allen's team in front of its fans. Before the game, Michael would have put the fear of, well, Jordan, in his teammates. Michael's teammates feared him more than they loved him. They were afraid not to make the open shots he created for them.

Michael made a psychological study of how to turn Scottie Pippen into a trustworthy sidekick. Michael broke him down and built him up and learned how to play to Pippen's strengths. If Michael were in Kobe's shoes, he would be turning the wondrously skilled, 6-foot-11 Odom into a secondary star.

At Seattle, Michael would have made sure Odom was far more than a spectator. Kobe needs Odom. But don't try to tell him that.

The Lakers, he said on ESPN, are now "a brotherhood."

Of one.

Goddessatlaw
Member

07-19-2002

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I never liked Kobe, but now I'm just ready for him to go away. And I'm kind of hoping it happens the first time he runs into Malone, and Malone puts Kobe so far into a backbend that he kisses his own ass. It's a dream that I have . . .

Hippyt
Member

06-15-2001

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Good article. Thanks for posting it.

Essence
Member

01-12-2002

Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 12:57 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Can I share in your dream Goddess? I can't stand Kobe!!!