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Archive through June 06, 2005

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: 2005 Jun. ~ Aug.: Parneting Place ARCHIVES: Reasons for a Title: Archive through June 06, 2005 users admin

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Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 8:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I love Eeyore's suggestion, and it was one I know many teachers have used. I had a beloved science teacher in 6th grade named Mr. Capriotti. Not a mouthful, for sure, but he allowed everyone to call him either 'Mr. Capriotti' or 'Mr. C.' And I think both would work in your situation, Grace--and would provide enough flexibility in your rule to make everyone happy.

Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 8:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, If you have Spanish, I think you all should go by Seņor, Seņorita, or Seņora!

There are regional, religious and racial differences in forms of respect. If you are near a military base or working with the military, expect to get "ma'am"ed and "sir"ed a lot. Some regions also do this. I would never think of calling my African-American administrator by her first name in front of students, even though we are on a first name basis.

I think it is up to the adult to invite the child or subordinate to be familiar!

I had loads of fun with small children as "Dr. Marm". Sometimes they forget my name and I'm just Mrs. Music Teacher. That works too!

Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 8:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hey, Lum.....How can I get the Germans to quit calling me "Frau Marm" now that I'm Dr. Marm? Or doesn't Frau imply being married? If it is just that you are "old", I guess that I'll be ok with it.

It really jolted me when I heard my American colleague call the secretary by her first name...I had to think "who is Erika?" Ohhhh, yes, it's Frau Sekretariat. I am on Du form with the old lady who is the archivist and my "lunch date guy" who is the director and most everyone calls "Dr. Lastname" If two people are of about equal age and "stature" (Dr.) who initiates the du form if one is male and the other female? I'm thinking it's the guy, but I'm not sure.


Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 8:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Even people I consider my equal at work and at school have different ideas of calling someone a title. In restaurants, most chefs expect to be called CHEF, even though the can be the same age or younger than their co-workers. One girl I worked with was the chef's girlfriend, and at work she called him CHEF too.

In some of my classes at university, I've had teachers with their doctorate degrees ask to be called Dr. Lastname, and some that have said "screw the formality; call me Jen."

It's interesting that Marm brought up the various tenses of verbs in other languages. I know in French and Spanish there is the familiar "you" and the respectful/plural "you". I've use the respectful form so much, that I've been told I need to use it less. I always though that I could use it for ANYONE to whom I am showing respect. LOL. Even my prof asked for us to use the "tu" form when addressing him.

Lumbele
Member

07-12-2002

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 8:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Oh dear, Du/Sie etiquette rules. My momma really drilled me in those.LOL Okay here goes.
Generally the older person offers the "Du" first. In case of "equal/close" age/stature it is the *female* who offers. In case of 2 ppl of the same sex the *older* one offers. (Similar rules for handshakes.)

"Frau" does no longer only indicate a married woman, but rather any female of a certain age/stature. "Fraeulein" is not used all that much any more, except for very young single women. It's kinda like the "Ms"-thing - status-neutral.
You could be addressed as (Frau) Doctor Marm. They may not be aware of your PhD, and/or that you actually want to be addressed as such, and therefor addressing you with the most respectful title available to them.
The PhDs I know use "Dr." in their letter heads, signatures etc. and are mostly addressed as such in their professional circles, but not really by general acquaintances, unless specifically introduced as such.


Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 9:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, I like to use the formal form of "you" simply because I can't remember how to conjugate in the familiar form! LOL!

Thanks, LUM!

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 9:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
so are you saying Marm is old?

Lumbele
Member

07-12-2002

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 9:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That's why I am always so very polite in French, too, Marm.
Wouldn't think of it, Grace.

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 9:57 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
lol

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 9:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
So while I'm glad there's so many people in agreement, I still don't have any other good reasons other than it's respectful and it helps the kids to understand you are the authority figure for my training tomorrow morning. Well that's ok, I think these ladies aren't going to need much convincing.

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 10:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
oh BTW, I don't like being called Mrs. Riske because I'm still not used to it (7 years later). I'd answer to my maiden name first - but it did take me approx. 23 years before I got used to people calling me Grace and now very few people call me by my Indian name. So come back to me in another 15 or so, I may have gotten used to it by then - but then that last name is so German and I am so not German - I may never get used to it.

Schoolmarm
Member

02-18-2001

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 10:38 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
And that, Grace, is a wonderful reason to use your title and your "new" last name!

I know that on the academic message boards, many (mostly science or humanities) professors want to use their first name only and some of them teach in jeans, birkenstocks and flannel shirts or ripped up t-shirts. (Ok, the ripped up shirts were for science labs, but STILL!!!)

I think when I was 14 and worked for Head Start, the kids called the high school workers by our first names.

Other opinions? I feel as if I've hijacked Grace's thread!

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 11:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I insist my students call me by my first name and I teach in relatively informal clothing. It's an extension of the pedagogical method I have embraced that has its roots in Paula Freire's book Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Or it might just be because I'm one of those humanities people on academic message boards.

At any rate, I have found that that students who resist calling me by my name most are the "underrepresented" [academese for Latino and African-American] students I teach in my university's special summer program. But when they read Freire in my class and we talk about the dialectic of "instructor" and "student," it all becomes clear to them. I hope.

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 4:20 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
When the "kids" you are teaching are college age, I can understand dropping the formalities. But these kids are 6-12 year olds. When I worked at a University and taught a class, I never thought to have them call my anything but my first name - but then I worked in the Fine Arts. We had a prof that reminded us we could call her Karen anytime but in front of non Fine Arts profs and then it had to be Dr. C.

Lumbele
Member

07-12-2002

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 7:16 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I've always had a problem with calling someone by their first name in some situations and by title in others. For me it's a consistent either-or.


Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think you command respect by the way you behave with children. I'm fine with anyone calling me by my first name whenever. But when I need to be the authority with young children, a change in tone of voice or demeanor is the only 'title' they need to get it. And I don't mean being overbearing, I just mean by being firm and clear, while still being caring. They get it pretty quickly that you have to pull rank at times, and they get it that you mean it when you do.

The whole title issue never made much sense to me. Everyone has equal worth and value and is worthy of respect, whatever your age or educational experience. Just call me a child of the sixties!

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Exactly, I agree Karuuna. My sons friends call me by my first name or by Mrs., it is their preference. I dont really care how they address me as long as they listen to me and treat me with the same respect I give them. Must be a sixties thing.

Rosie
Member

11-12-2003

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I am surprised that an organization as large as the YMCA doesn't have a printed handbook with guidelines for just this type of question, Grace?

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
If I'm understanding Eeyore's previous post about the distinction being made back in slavery days, I believe that's a no. It's more of a cultural thing and showing respect for your elders because in a family you kinda aren't of equal worth and the elders' respect is earned from their experiences and having lived longer. Has nothing to do with us being enslaved and having to bow down and call people master.

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 12:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, a rule about using titles isn't going to necessarily do me any good--in the long run--if I don't know how to command respect. Behavior is more important.

But, collectively, the accoutrements help cue the young. They help shape and socialize kids about mores and ask them to raise their 'playground' mannerisms to a higher level. (Gee, all that from making kids use titles? No, but it is one ingredient of the recipe.)

I have grown to accept the idea of uniforms in schools --for all the reasons I'm sure you've heard. And I also accept that behavior (including mannerisms and customs in how we address our elders) work in favor of a more civilized atmosphere. Doesn't guarantee a good result. Just works in favor of it. A good beginning place for groups of kids coming together in settings like a Y--or a school.

And although I believe kids are every bit as important and valuable as adults, I don't agree that we have equal status . . . or that I should hand them every right I have.

They can't drive yet. Haven't matured to handle it.

They also haven't matured enough to talk to me as an equal. I owe them the same courtesy I expect from them. But there is an accepted difference in how we express it, and that social custom shouldn't be termed antiquated and dumped. I believe I am due a measure of respect strictly by virtue of my status as an elder. (Which I won't be able to keep if I am abusive, neglectful, or behave like a complete idiot.)

Tishala
Member

08-01-2000

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 1:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
When the "kids" you are teaching are college age, I can understand dropping the formalities

I've done the same when I worked with younger students in less formal environments, too. My pedagogy really is my philosophy of how I teach and I don't change it substantively based on whom I teach. I might change some of my vocabulary, for example, but not my belief in the dialectic.

That said, I have very good friends who insist on titles because it works for them [in fact, I had a tutor assigned to my class a couple years ago who was made batty by my methodology and wanted me to restore hierarchies to the class. I acquiesced telling him that I was the instructor and he was the tutor and he would do it my way ]. They would probably find my classroom too anarchic and it might drive them crazy. What's most important is finding something that works. If you want to have titles, you really don't need a reason beyond "because I think it's a good idea and I've found it to be effective" IMHO.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 6:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Mocha - thanks for answering my question. Hopefully I didn't offend. :-)

Tishala - "wanted me to restore hierarchies to the class. I acquiesced telling him that I was the instructor and he was the tutor and he would do it my way"

Again, you crack me up!

Rosie
Member

11-12-2003

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 6:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yup and I loved Dr. Marm's, Mrs. Music Teacher too! Great sense of humor.

Graceunderfyre
Member

01-22-2004

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 7:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Tish I like that reason, I think I'll fly with that reason - but I may add to it - "because I think it's a good idea and I've found it to be effective and if you don't agree I'll beat you until you do!"

You know you'd think there would be an official rule, but there's not. I have been listening in around the Y to see how other departments do it and it seems the before/after care program is the ONLY one in the building that doesn't make the kids call them Mr/Mrs First name (or last name for those more comfortable with it). Even the swim team calls their coaches, Coach Joe & what's her name.

Mocha ITA with you. I did thesis work on 2nd Generation Kids in high school. Real brief, that's what I am - someone who is born and raised in a country different from where their parent was born and raised. And that was something I noticed (even though it wasn't what something I was studying) with families that came from Asian/African/Latino countries as opposed to those coming from European ones. I wonder why. I def. don't think it has to do with slavery/colonialism/British influence.

Eeyoreslament
Member

07-20-2003

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 8:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Really Grace? Couldn't there be an argument there that many ppl from the super-power countries are more demanding, and those from oppressed countries are not? Of course not EVERYONE is, but I'm sure their history has affected their culture....

Well, at least it'd be interesting to research anthropologically speaking.