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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 5:03 pm
Escapee, forgive me for thinking your child is smarter than that. I disagree that those are four year old terms, but do what works for YOUR child. Really, just trim it down to what you think will work for her. Simplify it as much as you need to. It will work. And she will get it. Look her in the eye, gently holding her face towards yours if you need to. "Honey, no more bad words. If you use "bad words" x will happen. Okay? Deal." When she uses one, just repeat it. "Honey, you used a bad word, now you have to.... " At the end some predetermined period of time (even if you haven't discussed it with her), if she doesn't use any, then say, "hey honey, you didn't say any bad words for x. Here's a <whatever>! Thank you! What a smart girl!" and say it using as much excitement and animation as you can. She'll buy in, trust me! Don't underestimate her, Escapee. She's already showing signs she's as bright as her momma and a very bright little girl. Honestly, this is exactly how you talk to little ones to potty train them too. And two is not too young for that, as long as THEY are ready!
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Schoolmarm
Member
02-18-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 5:14 pm
LOL....about the potty training thing. Have to confess that I was potty-trained before little brother came along 23 months later. YUP, being the control-freak, attention-seeker that I was, I reverted to diapers. Have to tell you about my friends who have three children who are 14 months, two and a half, and four plus a month. The oldest one goes around the house singing church liturgy and pretending that he is a pastor. The youngest is just now potty trained, along with the sister who is the middle child. My highly educated, religious friends concur that their middle child is simply a "" (rhymes with witch). I about spit out my lunch when I heard her being described in these terms. They can't take her out in public, apparently. Mom is an excellent teacher and knows all the tricks. NO DICE. We have complete confidence that "This too, will pass". And maybe next year I will get to meet "Katie, who is NOT a anymore!".
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:39 pm
A lot of people will say that children understand more than you think. I’m going to step out on a limb here and say that children understand less than you think – especially when dealing with certain concepts (e.g. right/wrong and why). IMO (humble and unbiased of course), we have an extremely smart five year old little girl and a bright little three year old. Their verbal skills are amazing and have been since they were very young. Having said that, I’ll carefully explain a concept to my five year old and she’ll nod confidently and say “Yes Daddy!”. Sounds great. Then I’ll ask her to explain what I just said and she’ll get maybe 25 % right. You have to be patient and explain again and again. Don’t assume that they really understand simply because they say they do. They may think they understand, but ask them and see if they really do, particularly with anything beyond simple concepts. They may understand that they did something wrong, they may understand that you are upset with them, but they may not understand why it's wrong and why you are upset. Ask them to explain it to you. You may be surprised at their answer. 
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Spygirl
Moderator
04-23-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:52 pm
Jimmer, I would turn your example and say that simply because she cannot verbally repeat what you told her does not mean she did not understand. I can think of twice today that I have understood a concept fully but when asked to explain it to a student, I was unable to accurately do so. Understanding and verbally regurgitating are two different processes and the inability to explain something back does not mean it was not understood. Karuuna gave the perfect example of how you can actually help to give your child the words to express and identify their own feelings/emotions. Here's the definition of frustration:
Frustration: a deep chronic sense or state of insecurity and dissatisfaction arising from unresolved problems or unfulfilled needs You can help your children to deal with frustration by giving them the words to identify the feelings. Their anxiety levels decrease because you are demonstrating empathy and understanding for them. No, they aren't getting what they wanted (i.e. candy), but they are getting your understanding and acknowledgment of their pain and frustration - which they of course want more than they want candy. And, you have the added benefit of setting boundaries with them and teaching them a host of lessons - they can't throw a fit, they don't get everything in life they want by throwing a fit (or saying inappropriate things), there are acceptable ways of expressing feelings of frustration, and it is okay to feel. Karuuna has identified my absolute #1 most recommended book for parents. I think all parents should have Gottman's "Emotional Intelligence" book and all married couples should read Gottman's work on marriage ("7 Principles for Making Marriage Work", for example).
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 7:10 pm
Spygirl, That is a very interesting perspective. I’m in that position sometimes myself. I’ll use a big word and one of my girls will ask me what it means. Of course, I know what it means, but it is one thing to know yourself and another thing to explain it. But there are times when they clearly don't understand what I was trying to explain. It's not that they can't explain it - they simply misunderstood or I didn't express it in a way they could understand. So in some situations, maybe they don’t fully understand or maybe they have trouble articulating their understanding or more likely a combination of both? Thanks very much for pointing this out! I will keep it in mind.
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Spygirl
Moderator
04-23-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 7:17 pm
Jimmer, exactly! Little ones (and big ones - hehe) can have a global or overall understanding of a concept without possessing the ability - or comprehend it fully enough - to explain it to someone else. That very principle of learning is how I design my courses. Teaching a concept is the best way to fully understand it.
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 7:23 pm
That is so true. Often I understand something so much better myself after trying to explain it to someone else. I'm going off topic, but I want to say that children are more fun than I ever thought possible before having our own! 
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Spygirl
Moderator
04-23-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 7:24 pm
I hate when I don't complete my thoughts before posting...LOL To follow up, when they don't understand, that's when repetition is useful. As mentioned, you put things into words you hope they will understand. If they don't, you try again. Then, you keep repeating it and they will increase their comprehension. Heck, that's basic learning theory! Kids hear all kinds of concepts each day that they do not have a clue about, but we do our best to explain them in terms they understand. Expressing emotion should be no different. As a parent, you take all the time in the world to ensure that your child understands how to read and write....learning how to express and identify emotion and be empathic should be just as important if not more.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 8:15 pm
Jimmer, someone once said to me our dreams are bigger than we are so we can grow into them. To a certain extent, I believe we should do this with our children, speaking a little beyond what they might understand today, while knowing they may not get it all today. As Spy said, that's why we repeat, and repeat, and repeat. That's what teaching is. If you think about it, you wouldn't expect your child to remember/understand the alphabet after hearing it once either. I never could understand why we think they ought to get difficult concepts then, after hearing them only once. Learning is largely repetition of the same thing - sometimes in exactly the same way, sometimes in slightly differing ways. Sometimes we try to hit them right at their current level, sometimes a little beyond. If we get complacent about not going further, they surprise us too by letting us know they already have something figured out far beyond what we guessed. So my philosophy is not to worry about speaking a little beyond where they are, as long as you don't i{assume} that they got it all or ever get impatient with them for not having got it all. You have to be sensitive and patient with their level of understanding. IMO, It is far worse to always underestimate what they understand and thus inadvertantly teach them not to keep reaching. It's a difficult dance, isn't it? But an amazing one!
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 7:54 am
FYI Karuuna, my child is very smart, and very advanced for her age, per her doctor. Thank you for implying otherwise.
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Danas15146
Member
03-31-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:02 am
Escapee - not sure if this would help you or not but with Samantha - who also had a tendency to repeat the wrong words at the right time - it never worked to say "bad" words or "potty" words but when I told her they were "ugly" words she would make more of an effort to stop herself. Even a young age my little Diva didn't want to do anything "ugly". Right now we have a cuss word jar - 25 cents for each offense but she is probably too young to grasp that concept yet. Good Luck!
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:03 am
Escapee! Please, that came out in a way I not only did not intend, but would never have even guessed that you would take it! I would never ever say something like that about a child. In fact, I think your child is incredibly bright! I was just trying to make light of your insistence that she wouldn't understand. Please accept my very very sincere apologies for writing something that could be so misunderstood, and understood in a hurtful way. That was truly not the intent of my post in any way. I don't even know what else to say, except that I feel horrible.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:22 am
<--------having a bad morning.
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 8:58 am
Karuuna, I love teaching our girls new things and the bigger the better! There’s almost nothing that I won’t attempt to explain to them. I remember one time one of them asked me a question about what I was working on and I thought to myself “How am I going to explain this?”. And then I decided to just tell it like it is and gave her a fairly complex technical explanation. It was a lot of fun and I was amazed at how much she understood. Also, there isn’t a word that they won’t attempt – no matter how many syllables and we try lots of them. The tough part for me is explaining what a word means. One thing that I do find is that sometimes they have trouble understanding sociological concepts. For example, they know you are upset with them over something but they may completely misunderstand why you are upset, even though you have explained it to them. That’s why I suggested that people actually ask their kids to explain it back to them so you know that they get it. The same thing happens with us here on the discussion board. I like your suggestion about not limiting kids by talking down to them. Kids are so much fun and their potential is limitless!
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Happymom
Member
01-20-2003
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:44 am
Escapee, I know it can be hard to keep a straight face sometimes! Congrats to you for being able to! I couldn't always and sometimes my oldest (nearly 6 yr. older than my youngest) couldn't either. I didn't have to deal with swear words but my youngest threw many tantrums every day for a long time and crawling around (even when she could walk) and banging her head on the floor and complaining about being hurt just got to be ridiculously funny sometimes. (It sounds bad, but I guess you had to be here in my house with my youngest who is and always was totally governed by her emotions.) (She is 8 now and gets more comfortable with her emotions every year and is able to maintain control really well now.) Anyway, like I said, I never had the problem of swearing with my 3 kids. But I am a big fan of natural consequences. (My kids have heard that term more than any.) So, natural consequences for saying unacceptable words in a 21 mo old...good question! I think if it were me, and totally ignoring didn't work, I would immediately pick her up, say firmly "NOT OKAY' w/o yelling or explaining anything and put her in her crib, on her bed, in her car seat, totally remove her from the situation/whatever she is doing at the time. I don't necessarily think it's worth it to try to make her sit in a time out place if she won't stay. (But on the Nanny show with the naughty mat I think Nanny would use it for a 21 mo. old, not 100% sure, but I think she might. Her technique would require you to keep catching her the second she gets up and keep putting her on that mat. You'd have to sit with her and not interact with her at all. It may take awhile, many many times of putting her there, very time consuming, but it has always worked for nanny.) There may be some time when you can't, such as if she's on the potty or in the tub. So, I don't really know what I'd do at that point. If it were me, I think maybe I would give her a time out from me, such as not eye contact or conversation for a min or two since maybe you cannot leave her alone (like in the bath). If she is in a room by herself swearing over and over and not yelling, I would just ignore it because if you go in there, she'll know that is a way to get you to come in. I wouldn't worry too much about if she'll get confused as to what happens if she swears. She just needs to get the message that she won't get any benefit out of it. The biggest benefit young children get from anything is the attention of their parents positive attention preferably, but they'll take neg. attn. over ignoring. Good luck!
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:46 am
Last night DD told me I love you so much , mommy! Perfectly clear. She only said dammit one time yesterday. I told her next time she said it I was going to take her new baby doll away from her. She ran and grabbed it and told me no, mommy. So she got that part of it. I also told her that if she didn't say bad words I would buy her baby a new stroller. She seemed to like that. I know that is maybe not the best thing to do, but I think she got it. I wasn't talking down to her, I was trying to use the most "effective" terms for her to understand. Then, my younger sister also lives with me, and we had gotten her an easter basket. She made the mistake of leaving it down, and DD got into the chocolate sponge bob and had all but eaten the whole thing when I caught her (she must have eaten fast). I told her that she could have it, but that she had to ask mommy next time. A while later she said Candy please mommy (we rarely give any sweets). I told her she could have one peice if she ate good at dinner. Well she is going through a growth spurt and she is eating so much. After dinner, I had forgotten the whole candy situation, and she said Mommy, Candy Puh Leeze. We laughed and gave her some strawberries (which she thinks is candy) She was completely happy.
(She dances for money)
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Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:51 am
OMG...what a cutie!!!
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Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:56 am
This conversation reminds me of the AFV $100,000 winner where the kid was throwing a tantrum, and as the parents moved away, the kid would stop crying, get up, find his parents, then fall back on the floor and start crying again...It was simply HILARIOUS!!! My hats off to the parents of today. They are raising children in a social environment that can be very judgmental and retribution can sometimes be harsh on a parent if they make even one bad mistake. I raised my children in a time when it was considered bad parenting to NOT spank your child and make them "mind". But as they say, the rules have changed and it can be quite confusing to parents of today who were raised one way, and are now being told that the way they were raised is now considered a crime. My prayers are with all the parents of today who are just trying to raise safe happy children...no matter what your methods. Although I have to admit, while watching some of the Nanny shows I find myself wishing I'd known how to do some of those things way back in the day!!!
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Danas15146
Member
03-31-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:57 am
What a doll!!!!!!!!!!
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 10:58 am
Well no matter what it is still a parents duty to make their children mind, whether it be by spanking or not, it is a parents job to teach their children to mind.
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Happymom
Member
01-20-2003
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:03 am
She is adorable! She looks so much like my eldest when she was little (she is now 14)...same hair for sure. It sounds like she responds to positive reinforcement really well. I know in theory all kids do and I do think they do to some extent. They all love the verbal love but when we're talking bribery of physical stuff...candy, toys, whatever, it doesn't work for all. But maybe it will work for her. My oldest thrived on it and still does. My middle daughter, it never worked for her...not behavior not potty training, no cleaning, nothing. It mostly never worked with my youngest. It worked for everything with my oldest. (One reason she did so well in Taekwondo, they were always getting new stripes for their belts or even new belts when they'd advance plus lots of other patches.) Anyway, she got potty trained that way, stopped sucking her thumb that way etc. So, good luck and I hope she gets her new baby stroller!
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:09 am
Escapee, she's a doll and sounds very bright! My son was motivated totally by internal gratification, dd is all external.
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Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:13 am
Escapee, your dd is a cutie pie! You must really enjoy her! Thanks for sharing!
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Maris
Member
03-28-2002
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:16 am
She is gorgeous.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:34 am
Thanks. We think so. Her attitude matches her appearance. She is a really really good kid.
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