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Twiggyish
Member
08-14-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:19 pm
I thought my post was helpful on positive reinforcement. I was answering the first post and not trying to make a judgement to anyone else's post.

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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:25 pm
Escapee, it's not unusual for a child that age to stick on a phrase that gets a reaction, even a negative one. At her age, I think you need to reinforce that those words are not permitted. Saying that it is "not nice" rather reinforces the phrase, since frankly, sometimes she doesn't want to be nice, like with the candy incident. In my dream world, when you took her out to the car, you said quietly, if you behave like that, we have to leave. Then when you went outside you let her know you understood by saying, "You were very angry that you couldn't have candy, weren't you?" or "It's a hard thing to not get something you want, isn't it?" That's really the key to calming her down is identifying the feeling for her and helping her know you understand what she is dealing with. Then after she is calm, you can reinforce the "no bad words" rule, and remind her that now not only did she not have candy, because she behaved badly she had no change and you all had to leave. Point out the negative consequences to her of her chosen response. Since you have recognized this as an ongoing problem, it may be time to not only respond when it happens. I would sit her down and say no one in the house is permitted to say that word, it's against our rules, *always*. Tell her calmly that if she uses the word, she will have to <insert the discipline of your choice.> Some possibilities are sit in your time-out chair for 2 minutes; No tv shows today, no special time with mommy later - you have to find the thing that matters to HER, that she won't want to lose. You should also set up the reward system. If she goes for "x" amount of time (and that depends on how often she uses it, but don't make it longer than a day at first!) without using the word - you go out for an ice cream cone, she gets a piece of candy she likes, she gets a special play time with mom or dad - again, you have to find out what she likes and really wants. So you have to reinforce her learning to control herself in not saying it as well. At the end of your little talk, (make it brief and upbeat), say okay, we have a deal! and shake hands or hug and kiss to establish a "deal-sealing' ritual. Then when she uses the bad word again, you tell her, "hey, we had a deal" now you/we have to <whatever the deal was>. This deal-making process works very well for most children up to the age of 6 or 7, so it's good to start teaching it early. They learn a couple of things from it - first, there are no surprises, they know what's coming. They also start to realize they themselves are in control of the outcome. They choose the bad behavior, they agreed to the consequences. Again, you have to think long run - what kind of person am I grooming her to be? One that takes responsibility for herself, or one that does what I tell her to do...
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Twiggyish
Member
08-14-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:26 pm
Excellent Kar!!
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Whoami
Member
08-03-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:30 pm
Oops, and while I was typing that long post, a whole slew of other posts were done! Have to sort of LOL at the "potty mouth" of some kids. Of course its not really funny. But is is a good way for parents to look at themselves, when their own behavior/language gets mirrored. It reminds me of a friend whose two-year-old boy took a toy airplane (that had been broken) up to some visiting friends of hers, and proudly told them, "this is all f**ked up!" Needless to say, my friend and her DH quickly learned to clean up their own mouths! I love the idea of making up new "frustration" words!
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:30 pm
Yep, that (Kar's description) is pretty much how it works at ur house. (And it does work.) But it is a lot more time consuming <RA>
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:30 pm
Thanks Twiggy! I also like the idea of giving her alternative behaviors for when she is upset - like the silly words others have suggested. So while reinforcing that it is normal to be upset or angry, you can also teach a more acceptable way of verbalizing that disappointment. Very nice!
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Whoami
Member
08-03-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:34 pm
Great post Kar! I'm so out of synch with this thread. Great stuff being posted while I patter away at typing. That's it for me! Back to just reading! 
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:28 pm
Escapee, she did learn something. If she does that you leave the store. Did you learn to never to do it again? Well, the jury is still out on that one, but you know that giving her a swat hasn't stopped her from cussing either. I know I sound like a broken record, but Magic 1-2-3 is really a great book. And there is much more to it than just 'go to time out'. I think it's rather naive of anyone to expect a small child to just go sit in timeout. Of course, they won't work if that's all you are doing. I have actually gotten the book back out with my youngest to refresh me on somethings. I teaches you to cut out alot of the power struggles that go on with kids. And that's truly what discipline and rebellion is.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:43 pm
Well, as long as we are recommending books.... My favorite is Raising an Emotionally Intelligent Child by John Gottman. I've bought, lent out and never-got-back more copies than I can count.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:46 pm
123 let's her say it twice with no repercussions. Quote: In my dream world, when you took her out to the car, you said quietly, if you behave like that, we have to leave. Then when you went outside you let her know you understood by saying, "You were very angry that you couldn't have candy, weren't you?" or "It's a hard thing to not get something you want, isn't it?" That's really the key to calming her down is identifying the feeling for her and helping her know you understand what she is dealing with. Then after she is calm, you can reinforce the "no bad words" rule, and remind her that now not only did she not have candy, because she behaved badly she had no change and you all had to leave. Point out the negative consequences to her of her chosen response. _____________________________________________ It's hard to explain some things to a 21month old Kar, as you suggested. I am certain those techniques will work when she gets older, but she doesn't have the attention span right now or the ability to grasp that concept. I realize she is just learning how to deal with stress, but it is my job to teach her how to deal with stress without outburst, foul language, violence, and rage, correct? It's all about learning to function in society and social situations, which I feel is a concept that has escaped so many parents nowadays. I hear so much about letting kids "express themsleves" that parents are using that as an excuse not to discipline and let there kids do and say as they please, but I digress. Talking more about it once we got home at 21 months would just make it a bigger deal. I have not spanked her for the foul language yet, I am sorry if I implied that earlier. I was trying a different approach, but I am talking myself out to her to no avail. The thing is that she "KNOWS" it is a bad word, and her saying it is direct disobedience. So how do you approach direct disobedience in a 21 month old? Talking about it once she calms down just makes her say it as I am telling her why we don't say bad words. The minute I say bad word she tells me what the bad words are, and I say, we don't say that, they are not allowed. They are bad words....or something to that affect. I don't think she is getting the jist of the meaning of "Bad Word" "Not Allowed" "Not Nice". Cause she laughs and says it more. Now, do you know how hard it is not to laugh when she says these things. We don't laugh, but it is so funny. This little squeeky voice saying "oh sh**." or "dammit dog" or "sum of bridge" (which is how she pronounces it). So how would I explain to her in terms she could understand?
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Herckleperckle
Member
11-20-2003
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 3:50 pm
You know, I never had that book when I was raising my kids, but I did take a course called Children the Challenge, which I am sure someone my age must have taken back then. It taught a concept that my dh and I had totally blanked out on til we took the course together--at that is, NATURAL CONSEQUENCES. So when you choose a consequence to a behavior they should be logical--not something that takes a lot of time and effort to construct.
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Herckleperckle
Member
11-20-2003
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:00 pm
Just saw your last post, Escapee. I think parents do entirely too much talking when they are the age your little one is. You need to cut way back on the 'explaining' verbiage and just use two or three words. I think this whole 'bad word' thing has caught her fancy just like the word 'no' does to a 2-year old. It is that rebellion. But I wouldn't explain it as direct defiance. It is because she is developing an ego--finding out what her limits are, etc. Bury your nose in a book or two and you will slap yourself in the forehead and say, "Of course!" DON'T WAIT TO DO IT. If you do, you will be even more frustrated than she is. In my case, I had parents who were terrible disciplinarians. They didn't have a clue. One was too harsh, the other too soft. So I had no clue when my 'angels' were born. I was shocked when my firstborn looked at me and ran into the street! I was appalled when explaining that was a no-no didn't work. It wasn't til we started allowing natural consequences help guide us in disciplining that things started to be more manageable. (Some parents do this naturally. I didn't!)
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:04 pm
Books are so contradictiary. So it's hard to pick one and stick with it, because what if that is wrong, and the other book will say the opposite. Explain to me what you mean by natural consequences.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:12 pm
123 let's her say it twice with no repercussions. Escapee, it doesn't. Some things (of which you decide) are automatic 1's. Herk, that's why I like the Magic book, it really talks about how parents do way too much talking when disciplining.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:16 pm
My point is this, when my mom used the 1-2-3 rule, we knew that we could get away with what we were doing without punishment until she got to three. Automatic ones or twos didn't matter to us, because the outcome was the same if we kept it up. It showed me laziness on her part. I also don't see how this would work with a 21 month old. But, on that same note, I am glad that it has worked so well with you and yours. It's all about finding what works within your own family. Trust me, I know some kids that only need to be told once and they never do it again, and then there are those kids who really need the spanking.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:25 pm
Oh, I have two completely different children so I know that each child responds to things differently. I have one that never pushed a boundary and the other doesn't know what one is! LOL It's a definitely more challenging with the latter one, but did use the same techniques with both. Just offered up my experience cause I thought you had said that the spanking wasn't stopping the cussing, and by removing her from the store, you had already started the 1-2-3 ball rolling.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:29 pm
No, I haven't used the spanking yet to get her to stop the foul language. But, I am not ruling it out either.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:32 pm
I disagree, respectfully. Explaining why *once* is not too much talking. In fact, not explaining at all or explaining over and over again are both not very helpful. What I advocated was getting her buy in on an approach to get over this. In a less than one minute conversation: It goes, Honey, you've started using these bad words, and even though I've told you no, you don't seem to get it. So from now on, when you use a bad word, we will do <whatever> But when you don't use the bad words for x period of time, we can do <whatever> Doesn't that sound like fun? Okay, we have a deal. It's really that simple. Maybe only 50% of that sinks in. The rest will sink in when she either earns a reward, or the negative consequences must be applied. But remember you are setting up a pattern of relating that will last for a long time. You have to acknowledge the frustration, the anger. I never said to let her "express herself" in any way she wants! But if you don't recognize the feeling by speaking it for her, so that she can make the connection, how will she make that connection? The emotion is real, all you are doing is helping her name it, not giving her permission to react however she wants. And frankly, it's already a big deal, and she knows it. That's why she's doing it. Might as well address it as the reality it is. If she's not getting the jist of "bad word" again, she will get the jist when she has to deal with the negative consequences. Maybe all she gets is that when I say that, that thing I don't like happens. That's enough for now. And I think you might be surprised how much more quickly they catch in if you do things this way. I realize that this is a different kind of process. And the truth is it won't work perfectly the first time because you are still learning it as well. But I promise you the moment you get serious about it, she will too. er, and that means no more giggling, no matter how hard you have to fight the urge.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:35 pm
Quote: Honey, you've started using these bad words, and even though I've told you no, you don't seem to get it. So from now on, when you use a bad word, we will do <whatever> But when you don't use the bad words for x period of time, we can do <whatever> Doesn't that sound like fun? Yeah, good luck getting her to sit still for that conversation. She would have no clue what I was saying. She's not even two. I need two year old terms. Those are more like 4 year old terms. Okay, we have a deal.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:40 pm
Oh Kar, my above post was not in reference to anything you said in regard to kids expressing themselves. I think I will even print your post out to help me in the next couple of years. I think it is great that it works so well in your house, we should all be so lucky!
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Herckleperckle
Member
11-20-2003
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:43 pm
I think every parent has to understand developmentally what their children are going through at different ages so you don't misinterpret behaviors as 'defiant.' Actually, they are all predictable, healthy and normal! And if they don't fit the pattern, you will know earlier rather than later that you or they need some extra help. I would defer to Kar and Texannie on the latest info. I am a dinosaur when it comes to all this. But, here is an example of how I used natural consequences. Now, the true natural consequence of not cleaning up your room is to live in a messy room--and that might work on a 12 year old, but not with a 15-month old. So we took that concept and tweaked it. We set up a rules (as we went along) so that our children would understand that every behavior had a predictable consequence. Learning to clean up toys My Matt would never put his toys away. I got down on my hands and knees and showed him how put his toys away. We made the appropriate noises as we drove his cars and trucks and 'parked' them in boxes in his closet. We danced his puppets to the toy box, etc. We made a game of it. Then I told Matt this was an important job--to put his toys away before bedtime every night! Weee! Second and third nights. Matt would put some toys back on his own, but then his attention would be diverted. I pitched in and helped him (which he liked doing as a team). This went on for awhile. When I thought he understood and was ready to handle it, I let him know that toys he didn't put away would have to go bye bye. (I think you've seen the off-limits container thing on Nanny 911 or one of those shows.) It really worked! Some initial tantrums when a favorite toy was gone, but I did give him a chance to earn them back. So the natural consequence of leaving toys on the floor was to lose them. The natural consequence of keeping his room orderly was to keep them. Very simple example, but you get the idea.
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Rabbit
Member
08-12-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:45 pm
True story, from 23 years ago. We are in Sears getting a long sales pitch on an overpriced vacuum cleaner. Hare Jr is two. The lady is speaking but Jr. is pulling at Mrs Rabbit’s coat tails. “Mommmm” “Just a sec Jr” “Mommmmmmmm” “shhh Jr the lady is talking” “Mommmmmmmmmmmmmm” “Jr, what is it?” Pointing at the sales lady, “That lady is ugly” Mrs Rabbit bought the vacuum and the extended warranty. While I took Jr over to the tool department to see if he had anything to say about the sales clerk over there while I looked at a radial arm saw.
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Schoolmarm
Member
02-18-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:46 pm
There is a huge difference between a "barely two" and an "I'm almost three" two. Reasoning and excessive verbiage is not real successful with a barely two. Kids thrive on routines, so if you have a discipline routine, that is good. I taught in a school that was big on the 1-2-3 before consquences. In a short class period, you could just count all the time instead of teach. Most kids learned that nothing happened until three. I found the "teacher glare" or mouthing "NO" or just moving closer to the stinker or distracting them worked well. (Also interesting and well-planned lessons with high participation--this is the best way, but kids would come into class with all sorts of unresolved garbage.) I taught in the inner city with all sorts of kids with all sorts of discipline styles at home. There were only two exceptions to the 1-2-3 rule and that was automatic to the office for swearing at a teacher or endangering the class. Yes, we had Kindergarteners to the office as well as bigger kids. BUT we are talking about almost two year olds. They seek attention--if they don't get positive, they will seek negative! They are going through an independence phase, where they are finding boundaries and will push until they find it. They are also "almost" verbal. Some of the fits are due to lack of communication. Sign language can help here. My niece was very verbal before she was two, but we couldn't understand everything she said. She wanted a sandwich once and kept saying "barette" so I got her a bunch of hair do-dahs, and she just stamped her foot and kept going to the kitchen. AHA! Brrrrread. She actually could say the word "frustrated" and would use it when she talked too fast for us to understand. It was really kind of funny. This niece would get a swat on the bottom and a "No" for misbehavior. This is ONE swat with a hand over a diaper. If she did a pouting "fit", her parents would say "Tell me when you are done, and then we can all do "whatever fun thing we couldn't do because she was pouting". Or "Go over there and pout...when you are done you can join us." Not much pouting from this kid. She is well-behaved, smart, and doesn't remember her occasional swat when she was a toddler. And now the tale of my other brother's kids....no swatting on the bottom and his are also well adjusted (despite having a wacko mother with whom they live with half of the time). HOWEVER, when the youngest was two-ish we endured a WHOLE day of his screaming at the St. Louis zoo. The niece in the other family (also two at the time) asked her Daddy to give him one little swat so we could eat lunch cause "Jakie is a bad boy and we can't eat he's too loud." If the kid is in danger, something has to be done--and quick. Removal from a situation is not always feasible. Apparently I wouldn't quit biting my baby brother when I was two until Mom bit me back ONCE. It only took once, and I don't remember it. I have a fantastic Mother. I credit her to my well adjusted niece and nephew who have the "whacked-out" "non-Mother". Now all the kids are old enough to reason with. Life is much better on vacations. They all know that I don't tolerate them being picky eaters and then eating junk food later. I am the "lunch police" and we make a game out of it. Grandma thinks that I'm mean, but she is also surprised when they eat and are laughing about being a deputy or getting a ticket. Escapee....if you laugh at her (and you certainly will), that just reinforces using the swear words. If you don't react, it will help extinguish that behavior.
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Heyltslori
Member
09-15-2001
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:48 pm
LOL Rabbit!
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:57 pm
I have never laughed in front of her for I know that would just reinforce the behavior. It is sometimes hard not to, but I control myself. I loved your post Schoolmarm. It helped a lot. A swat over the diaper is all I have ever given DD. It has the potential to be worse, but isn't. She was pinching, so she got pinched, once, and never did it again. I like the go over there and pout. We used to applaud and cheer when my little sister threw tantrums. She hated that and stopped the tantrums. She figured she wasn't going to entertain us at her expense. It was great.
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