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Archive through April 11, 2005

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: 2005 Mar. ~ 2005 May: Parneting Room (ARCHIVES): Terrible Twos/Threes (and Twenty One Month Olds): ARCHIVES: Archive through April 11, 2005 users admin

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Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 2:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Grace, I'm truly sorry you found this so upsetting. Spanking is a very volatile issue and almost always erupts that way every time we have this discussion.

The other thing to remember is that regardless of how you intended for the discussion to go in a thread, once you start a thread it will go where the other posters take it. That's also the nature of discussion boards, and whenever you start a thread, you should be aware that it may not turn out at all like you had hoped. As long as the posts are not against the rules, that's also a fact of life at TVCH. There is no rule here that I know of that says all posters must follow the rules set down by the person who started the thread. It would be nice if they did but it's not a rule here, and it's probably not a very realistic wish.

Like a family, things sometimes get loud and ugly. But hopefully like a family of sorts, you can see that it's because people care and that there are a wealth of positive things here too. Hopefully you can take the things that are upsetting well enough that you can stick around for the good stuff. And certainly we all have different tolerances for that, so we have to make that decision individually.

I think it's also important to remember that Nick has clearly said that he is no longer using a belt to spank, which seemed to me to be inferred in his very first post on the issue. Somehow that seems to have gotten lost in the conversation.

Everyone is going to draw their lines in different places on the spanking issue. Some will unequivocably call *any* kind of corporal discipline wrong. Some say a swat is okay. Some say a spanking with an open hand is okay. And so on.

However, everyone (well almost everyone) will draw a line somewhere. What we are really talking about is where we each individually think that line should be drawn.

Jimmer is exactly right that this can be a tough area of the board to deal with. People are going to get offended, and people are going to say they think this or that is wrong.

I guess I don't really see what is wrong with that. There seems to be an idea that we ought not judge, but the truth is we all do judge. If someone came in here and posted that they beat their child with a slat of wood till they bled, I'm pretty darn sure everyone would be judging.

When someone judges you, you always have the option to disregard their judgment if you don't agree. I don't think it's even necessary to defend yourself, although I agree that can be very hard. I know it can be hurtful to hear, but your responsibility is only to consider if what they said had validity and then do what you think is right from there.

It really doesn't have to be taken personally, although let me say again, it is hard not to.

People are going to post their opinions on senstive issues, sometimes harsh ones. It's up to you how you take that.

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 2:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Back to dealing with biting in toddlers -

First thing to remember is this not at all unusual behavior. When kids are preverbal, they still have strong feelings. They get mad, frustrated and they want thing the way they want them (kind of like us!). Biting, kicking, hitting, pushing are all ways of trying to exert control over their worlds.

It is important not to over react to the first incidences of biting. When you do, you unintentionally reward the behavior (like tantrums) thereby encouraging it to happen again.

So, in the beginning, when biting or hitting occurs, you must not act shocked, or show pain or dismay. Simply state the house rules "We do NOT bite here", while making sure you are right on the child's level, and eye to eye. Don't be threatening, but be firm.

In discouraging bad behavior, it is also important to encourage the appropriate behavior, right from the start. We all get mad, or frustrated, and we need to start teaching at an early age that the feelings are normal, but we need to learn appropriate ways to deal with them.

So, be the parent detective. See what made your child frustrated and then tell them you understand. "I see you didn't like it when I told you it was time to wash for dinner. It's okay to be disappointed that playtime is over, but it's not okay to bite. Now let's go wash up."

Often children this young are trying to communicate in the only way they know how. It's up to you to start teaching them the appropriate and inappropriate ways of doing so.

Part of that is acknowledging that they have a right to their feelings, and that you understand. The act of understanding is a very calming one, as all of you well know. When you feel heard and understood, your anger dissipates. It is much the same for our little ones.

Kep421
Member

08-11-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I understand your feelings Grace. I also thought you were being judged harshley all in the name of "free speech". People may say its just posting their own opinions and it shouldn't be "taken personally"... but I think it's purt near impossible to not take these kinds of accusatory statements personally.

I'm glad you decided to stay with this community, judgmental tho it may be at times...

Danas15146
Member

03-31-2004

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 6:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Grace - I am glad that you decided to stay too and am sorry that you felt attack.

As far as the belt comment - I do have to say this. I got the belt often for any small "infraction". One incident sticks with me vididly after 30 years that I wanted to share with all of you. I had left some paperdolls on the floor and when I went back to pick them up my father decided that I had an attitude while doing so. When he grabbed the belt he grabbed the wrong end and whacked me with the buckle. Huge welt on my back for days -- because of paperdolls. Did that teach me to pick up quickly - NO. Now mind you that if he had been a decent human being in any other sense this might not stick with me so much. Now that he has "cleaned up" he still doesn't "get" why I am not willing to let my kids spend the night at his home.

As far as physical displine - I have taken my mother's approach. If I am angry enough to hit you and allow myself to do it I may hurt you so I am going to walk away. I have hit one of my children one time. My son called me a very nasty name that he had heard on TV (MInd you he had no idea what that word meant) and as a knee jerk reaction I smacked him in the face. After we had both calmed down I explained that was a horrible name to call someone and that I never wanted to hear it again. I also told him that it was wrong for me to smack him and that it would never happen again. I undestand that there is a big difference between being hit with an object and a swat on the rear end -- I just have made the choice not to deal with my kids that way.

So while I am not judging anyone's methods of discplining their child - I just wanted to give an insight of how your child might feel when hit with a belt.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 8:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That is a very sad story Dana. Did he ever apologize?

Danas15146
Member

03-31-2004

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 8:41 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
If you mean my son - yes. If you mean my biological father - no never. He was very heavy into drinking and drugs while I was little and did many horrible things. It is not in his nature to apologize. He has since gone clean and I can be civil to him for the sake of family - but I will never forgive him for the way he treated me, my brother and my mom.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yes, I meant your father. Thanks for sharing the story, I am sure it wasnt easy.

Loppes
Member

07-12-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 9:54 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
So let me get this straight. Its okay for a mature adult to use a belt on a child who is not yet matured? I wonder at times if the same principle should be applied against adults when we misbehave too? Perhaps that would level up the playing field?

I know I'm being sarcastic, but the reality is, we should stop and think twice or thrice, before using physical force on children.

There are countless other ways to deal with the problem. If a person can go online and have time to post about their methods, surely they can Google, and research the proven appropriate methods of dealing with disciplining children.

Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
On a lighter note...Grace...thanks for the LOL I just had...I read your posts including "pms" as Pre Mens. Synd. I sure didn't get it at all until I saw this "pms" in a different thread and realized it meant private msg! (I'm not really up on all the computer lingo, much to my teenager's dismay!)

I'm glad you didn't leave Grace.

Anyway, to everyone, I apologize if I offended anyone. I hope I didn't and I sure never meant to.



Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:09 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I suppose it's easy to generalize in these situations, and often that's what we do on a message board. It's the both the beauty and the beast of things here.

At the same time, we are obligated (I think) to really hear the individual stories of the people who post here. To not truly listen, and then post an all encompassing opinion does a disservice and unkindness as well.

I think everyone who posted here, and hopefully all who read here, DOES think twice or thrice before they use physical force. They have found it effective for whatever reason; and they are trying their best to be good parents. And often they have lived difficult situations that we cannot even begin to fathom.

We may not agree with their actions, and Lord knows we won't agree about many parenting issues. But I appreciate the struggle and the honesty of those who have posted. It can take great courage to post in such a strong-minded group; and I admire those who take that risk!

I would rather hear stories than alienate people. Only in a continuing discussion can we all keep growing and learning. Once the door has been closed, nothing more is gained.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Karuuna, I appreciate your post but I guess for me I do have an all encompassing opinion about certain methods of discipline and it is unfortunate that it would be regarded as a disservice. I could never remain silent if I heard or saw something that I felt was truly wrong, even if it was at the risk of offending someone. I dont have any problem with people rejecting my opinion but I will always stand up and say that I think something like that is wrong and I will always beg for someone to rethink the behavior.

You never know, maybe one person will say hey you are right. In any event, I at least feel I tried, regardless of who said what about me or my opinion.

Ddr
Member

08-19-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think any open dialogue on discipline techniques was probably lost within the first 24 hours of this thread. After that it became something else.

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 10:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
We all have our ways of dealing with people, Maris. I prefer to keep doors open when I can. I learn more that way. :-)

DDR, many of us are still trying to have that open dialogue. Maybe you could join in that?

Spygirl
Moderator

04-23-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
While I have not read every word written here, I have been following along. I do think a lot of hurt feelings have occurred through this dialogue, without a doubt. These topics are rarely discussed without that happening. At the same time, if the option is to not discuss them because people can get their feelings hurt, then we are in an uncomfortable and gridlocked position to avoid all potentially volatile, yet important topics.

I don't mean to sound dismissing of those who have gotten hurt because that is not my intent, but I do appreciate the value of what has been exchanged here.

I'm not sure who all here watches Desperate Housewives, but the episode last night dealt with spanking. The timing is ironic. Bree spanked Lynette's son when she was watching them. The fallout almost cost them their friendship. In real life, it might actually have cost them a friendship.

In other words, if that can happen with two people who are friends, it is no wonder that discussing it here among virtual strangers got so heated.

I guess I'm in that pollyanna mode of hoping that people can read through these posts and help to clarify their own feelings about spanking and punishment in order to continue being great parents. There are valid points on both sides that I have immensely appreciated reading.


Ddr
Member

08-19-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kar, I stated somewhere in here to Grace that my son never bit or hit me, so I had no personal experience on the matter. That was the request for help.

When there is another question in here, maybe I'll be able to help, maybe not.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Most threads go in many directions. And most threads have comments from "I have no experience" to several paragraphs of experience. Then there are several tangents that threads go in the direction of...

I think it's always good to see views on several different sides.

I also think this is a volatile subject so we should expect that it gets heated and we should take a breath or two before we get upset about anything. I don't think anyone here meant to hurt any other poster. Everyone is voicing their personal opinion.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
As a spanking parent, once I had read, posted, and reread through and through this thread, I am taking the advice of the latter on a trial basis to see how effective it would be. DD is still young enough that she really doesn't understand a lot of what I am telling her. Time outs with her is a lost cause, she doesn't understand "sit here, and don't move."

Unfortunately, the problem I am having is with her mouth. Her new favorite word is "dammit" among other things like "SOB" and Oh Sh**" She says it ad-nauseum. She also uses it in the right context. I realize that it is because she hears us saying it, so I figured that once we stopped she'd stop. Not so, I found out. Now that we are very careful on what we say and how we say it, she does it even more. She is only 21 months old and has the mouth of a marine (seeing as how daddy was a marine) But, we have completely desisted of using the foul language ourselves.
The other question was posed whether or not she knew it was a "bad" word. Well, yes she does. She would say it, and we would tell her no no, that's not nice. And she'd laugh and say "dammit dammit dammit dammit" and run laughing.

The other day at a local convenience store, she wanted some candy and when i told her no, she threw the change she had in her hand and yelled dammit mommy!

Well, the crowd in the store thought it was hillarious, but I was embarrassed. I still kept my calm, not wanting to punish in anger, and trying to keep an open mind about discipline, walked her out of the store telling her no, that wasn't a nice, "lady like" thing to do. She didn't hear a word I said. All she knew was she wasn't getting candy, and her change was all over the floor of the store.
Before, she would have gotten a short swat for this and it would have brought a quick stop to the bad behavior.

Any ideas?

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, as a parent who has made the same mistakes as you--it happens!--the only thing is perseverance AND a non-excitable reaction to her 'bad words.' The only reason why she repeats the behavior is because she is getting lots of mommy and daddy attention for it.

So you handled it nicely in the store, and did the right thing! Just have confidence that, like potty training, she will outgrow this with the proper emphasis on the good things she does. Compliment her when she speaks or acts nicely. Totally ignore her when she does the opposite. Or, if in a public setting, remove her from the place, even if it messes up your plans. If out shopping together and having a nice time, and a word pops out, pack her up, tell her CALMLY without any emotion 'that is not how we talk' and take her home. That holds true all the way through the toddler years, too--for tantrums, sassiness, etc.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well I think taking her out of the store was a very good solution. Of course being the cheapskate that I am I would have picked up all the change, thanked her for it and pocketed it.

Many years ago, my son was two and a half and I took him to Dublin on a trip with me. He just loved double decker buses and only wanted to take the bus places. It was the end of a long day and we were waiting for a bus. Being a New Yorker, I am used to buses coming frequently during the day but it doesnt work that way in Ireland. I was muttering away to myself at having to wait forever for a bus and the line was getting pretty long beind me. Down the street we see the bus approaching and he points his finger and shouts at the top of his voice "Here's the damn double decker bus mommy". Well the looks I got from people, and I didnt even realize I said. I have to admit I thought it was funny, coming out of a small mouth though. I did tell him it was a rude thing to say and that sometimes adults use language they shouldnt use but that he should not say that word again.





Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, we do praise her for saying please and thank you, and things along those lines. She is a very good talker for 21 months. She forms sentances to an extent. She also get s a multitude of attention whether it be from myself or DH or my mother who babysits daily. My mom has broken herself of saying "oh crap" so DD won't repeat.

DD will repeat dammit to herself over and over again, like she isn't trying to call attention to it, she is just jabbering on to herself.

Ddr
Member

08-19-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:08 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Escapee, possibly try making up new words of frustration with her. If I remember right, my son chose snagglefrass and hot diggity dog as his new words. This reminds me of my father who would always say "God Bless America" in times of frustration.

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
But that is because you've made the word so enticing by reacting to it. Try swapping a new word, say DINOSAUR or Tiddlywinks or something fun to say and using that word to your hubby for a while, laughing while you do it. See if she substitutes the new word--and lets go of the old word. Give it the same attention you gave when she said 'dammit' but in a good way. Then report back here and let us know what happens!

Herckleperckle
Member

11-20-2003

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Great minds think alike!

Ddr
Member

08-19-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    


Whoami
Member

08-03-2001

Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:17 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I've been following this thread off and on too the last few days too.

When I was a child, my mom took a wooden coathanger to my butt. She justified it because my butt was so fat/big/hard that she broke blood vessels in her hand when trying to spank me. I don't remember her using the coathanger on anyone else but me (since I was the only fat child).

I do remember one incident where my older sis and I were outside playing. Sis went inside for a few minutes, and came back out and said (Paraphrasing here), "Mom wants us to go in for the night. But I'm not going to bother, lets just stay out and keep playing for a while." Sis was probably close to Jr. High age if not in Jr. High. I was in elementary school. One thing to know about this sis is, what she says goes. You just don't go against what she's decided you do. Even now she can be that way.

Anyway, naturally Mom was quite livid sis had disobeyed her, and was ready for her when we went in. I can remember going to my room and hearing something like, "don't think you're too old to spank!" Then Mom giving her a good wailing. She may or may not have even used the coathanger. Cause I can remember Mom finishing up on sis, turning to me and pointing the coathanger in my face and telling me "you'd be getting it too, but you didn't know you were supposed to come in." I can remember being relieved I "got away with it."

So, where am I going with this story? Actually, I really don't know. Do I think I was abused as a child. No. I never really did. But....now I dunno.

Yes, I do vent about my mom and her drinking quite a bit on this board. But, the way she is now is not the way I remember her as a child. And, my putting up with some of the things I do now is because of my memory of her as a child.

I remember my Mom as a loving, giving woman who worked herself to exhaustion to provide for us girls. This in the wake of fathers who abandoned us and refused to have anything to do with Mom or us after the divorces. She made it a policy to never speak badly of our fathers, cause she had grown up a child of divorce, and had bad experiences along that line. But, as we grew older, and asked questions, it wasn't very hard to realize our fathers didn't care we existed.

Did I grow up living in fear of my Mom? No. Do I have an abnormal fear of wooden coathangers? Not in the least. Although I do abhor wooden utensils (popsicle sticks, toothpicks, etc) in my mouth. But I know that has nothing to do with wooden coathangers. Do I remember the fear and pain from the spankings? No. But I can remember being scoffed at that, at the onset of a spanking, I'd start screaming and crying before I was ever touched. I can remember being told the spanking never really hurt, but the anticipation of it was the worst part.

I don't think having a wooden coathanger taken to my butt scarred me for life. I believe I grew up in a house of love. And it makes me cringe when I read of things that my Mom may have done back then that would have labeled her a child abuser now. But then, times were different then. And, as was pointed out before in this thread, spanking and such was a standard method then.

Do I think spanking (especially with a "tool") is right, just because that's what was done with me? No, not at all. Do I think those who spank children in this day and age are abusive? No. I'm not there to know the situation. So its not for me to say anything, especially since I myself have never had to raise a child.

So, what's the point of my post? Not sure if there is one. Just that I was spanked as a child, with a "tool" at that. And no, I'm not trying to imply "I was spanked as a child and I turned out ok, so it must be okay to spank." I'm just sharing a story cause I felt like there was one to share.

What I remember most about my childhood is the love my mother had for us, and the hard work and sacrifice she went through on a daily basis to provide for us. Add to that the special experiences she gave us on birthdays and Christmas every year. She always managed to come through with something, which puts me at awe now, knowing how close to poverty we were most of the time.