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Archive through April 08, 2005

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: 2005 Mar. ~ 2005 May: Parneting Room (ARCHIVES): Terrible Twos/Threes (and Twenty One Month Olds): ARCHIVES: Archive through April 08, 2005 users admin

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Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 9:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
About this time out thing working or not and what age it works, well I remember at least 2 of my babies biting me while nursing. They were very very young. There was immediately at time out from nursing for a little bit. They got the message even at a few mos. old.

Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 9:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Grace, my middle daughter bit a few times. She was 2 and not 2 1/2-3. It may have only been my husband. If she bit anyone else, it was me. She did not do this in anger. She did it while she was excited and playing physically like wrestling, tickling. Each time she received a very shocked expression from her parent and a very loud (not shouting though) firm "NO BITING". We may have told her "biting hurts daddy". Play was immediately stopped. She only bit a few times. She is very sensitive to tones of voice and doesn't like harshness (even now at age 11 she'll still cry sometimes). I can understand how a different kid may like to push buttons and get a reaction from his/her parent because he/she finds it interesting. It sounds like your son really wants to be with you/play at the time he is doing that.

As far as the "biting hurts" being understood or not. At some point kids will understand what that means. Saying that or anything else that will teach (even by pointing out colors to 5 mo. olds) is beneficial...the connections in their brains will eventually be made. There is nothing to be lost by telling kids things like "biting hurts."

I think babies and kids understand a lot more than some people think. I was amazed sometimes watching old videos of my kids when they were crawling babies and not talking yet and thinking they didn't know what I was saying and watching the videos they'd crawl over to what I was talking about. When you watch the video, that is what you are focusing on. In real life as it is happening, I was focused on filming and whatever else was going on and missed seeing that our babies really were understanding.

Look at babies who learn sign language. They can sign things they cannot verbalize yet.

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Denecee, the threat of lectures works for my kids too. Even if I use it to diffuse the situation by threatening to lecture about something that has nothing to do with behavior such as the 3 branches of govt. We try not to lecture about the behavior now. I have read a lot on that and it mostly doesn't seem to work for us or in the books. But I have done my share of it...groan... and sometimes I really think I am not really lecturing but they think I am. Now, I'd rather threaten to lecture about something that has nothing to do with their behavior. I also tend to ask a lot of questions to have them come to the conclusion/realization of why they did/said what they did wasn't ok. I even did this with them as preschoolers. Although it didn't work well with my youngest who would just scream if she was already upset. It did work well when she wasn't upset and it worked very well with my older 2 kids.

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Some people may think spanking/biting works as a form of discipline. But I don't think that because something works is the best reason to use it. Scaring a child by screaming in their face or belittling them would probably work to stop the undesirable behavior for the moment too. But is that the best way? No...not for then, not for the long term and not for their children who will most likely be parented the same way they were.

Yes, these are my strong opinions, but I am in no way trying to offend or bait anyone at all and I am not addressing this to anyone in particular. I mean this all calmly and respectfully.

Pcakes2
Member

08-29-2001

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 10:33 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Not even going give my opinion, as I do not have children of my own, but Nick was stating how he handled a problem he was having...he did not ask for advice or opinions on his actions.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 10:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Happy said something that really made me think. She said:

>>Some people may think spanking/biting works as a form of discipline. But I don't think that because something works is the best reason to use it.<<

It is true that spanking can work. It can bring an immediate stop to a bad behavior. But that is not a good enough reason to use it.

It is way harder to try time outs, taking away privileges, using a naught mat, etc...

It is my opinion that parents who spank are taking the easy way out. Also they may be relieving much of their stress.

Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 11:24 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
"Yes, these are my strong opinions, but I am in no way trying to offend or bait anyone at all and I am not addressing this to anyone in particular. I mean this all calmly and respectfully."

I posted this a couple of hrs. ago. I guess I should clarify a little that I was addressing part of my post to Grace re: her son biting. Also, I did address Denecee directly agreeing that lectures can sometimes work.

Just to clarify, the remainder of my post was just in general, my opinions in general.


Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 11:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I just cant get the visual of a man taking a belt to a little girl out of my head. I cant accept something like that.

Denecee
Member

09-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 11:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Happymom, I love that- "a lecture on the 3 branches of government"

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 11:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I always thought I'd spank my kids when I had them because I was and it "worked" for me, and honestly it was easier than being grounded. But if it "works" so well, why do some parents need to spank and spank and spank? As I was on the verge of being a parent and read about positive parenting I knew right then that spanking wouldn't be a part of my discipline package. I read a post online that really spoke to me and I will paste it here:

Re: "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child..."

Date: Jan 20, 03:22 pm EST
From: carpe_vinum

Spanking is ineffective for many reasons.

1. It does nothing to teach a child to develop self-discipline. The child focuses on the spanking itself,
not reviewing the behavior that led to the spanking.

2. Spanking makes the parent feel better by releasing negative energy drawn from the build up of
adrenaline when we're angry. Unfortunately, it's also difficult in the heat of the moment to apply the
breaks, so a minor spanking can quite easily escalate.

3. Children view spanking as punishment for a crime or payment for a debt so once they've been
spanked they have a "clean slate." Conscience development is inhibited because spanking erases
away the guilt.

4. Spanking gets in the way of a healthy parent-child relationship.

5. Parents who spank sometimes begin to rely on spanking as their primary source of discipline. It
becomes a quick fix and prevents the use of more effective, productive discipline techniques.

6. As you mentioned, spanking is not an effective form of discipline because while it typically stops
behavior with shock, pain or fear, most children will turn around and repeat the behavior later.

7. Consistent methods teach self-discipline far more effectively and expeditiously than inconsistent
methods. Spanking, by it's nature, is inconsistently applied because it is dependent upon the
emotions of the parent rather than the degree of the infraction. Children have little idea when or for
what reason they are going to be spanked since the parent's mood often influences his/her reaction to
a misbehavior.

8. Spanking isn't humane. Anyone who believes in the "Golden Rule" is either violating it or lying to
themselves if they honestly believe they would want someone twice their size hitting them.

9. Spanking does teach a lesson. It teaches kids "if you don't know what else to do -- hit." or "when
you're bigger then you can do the hitting." or "if you're really angry than you can get your way by
hitting." Spanking a child teaches them that physical contact of that sort is acceptable behavior. We
all know that kids model the behavior they see, far more often than doing what they are told.


Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Brenda--that is awesome! It says everything! I hope the "spanking" parents will read it and really absorb/understand it.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kar---I was just making a joke in my above post. Sorry if something more was read into it. I wouldn't want to offend you, as I do enjoy relating and debating on various subjects with you. I have come to realize that in most other subjects and topics our views are very similar. I think it is wonderful that you have such a good rapport with your child. We should all be so lucky. In reality, A spanking is an absolute last resort in my house, and never a severe spank, more just a swat, a stern no ---- and a hug and an I love you with an explanation. I have never, and will never use a spanking "tool" that is not alright with me.

I feel that the above post is very criticizing of some people's ways of parenting, and that should not be what this thread is about. Maybe we need to have some theories that support it in some way. Maybe not.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
You know what gets me? 30 years ago, a spanking was so accepted and so normal, that parents who didn't spank were considered hippy radicals. My how things have changed over. Now if you do spank you can be arrested, you are considered a radical child abuser.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
100 years ago, kids worked in coal mines and factories. It wasnt that long ago any teacher could take a cane to a child. Children still work in factories in Asia. It isnt all that unusual for a once accepted practice, such as slavery, to be regarded as immoral later on.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
What is that saying (I think Winston Churchill came up with it) about the most heinous things are accepted just because that's how it's always been?


Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yeah, it's amazing isn't it? My grampa used to tell me stories about going to pick his own switch of a tree/bush out in the woods. And, if it wasn't a sufficient "tool", then his dad got to pick one out, and that was 100 times worse. So they learned to pick a good one the first time and get it over with.

Someone above mentioned having to stand with their nose in the corner....
My step dad made me stand in the corner once at a birthday party. It was humiliating (I think I was 5). I can remember just standing there crying and feeling so embarassed. I would have preferred a quick swat to that any day.

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Of course, I never did whatever I did again......but is it really worth humiliating your children?

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
you dont need to humiliate a child to teach them just like you do not need to use force. That is the point, there are effective ways to teach children but as Karuuna said, it takes patience and effort.

I would say to anyone who believes that using violence against a child listent to this wav file and if they disagree that this is how it sounds, make a wav file of the next time your child is getting a spanking and listen to it, when you are no longer angry.

http://cddugan0.tripod.com/Report_Card.htm

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
My cousin makes her daughter suck a bar of soap. No matter what she has done. She is six. She'll ask, hey, you wanna eat soap? And her daughter stops what she is doing. That is wrong to me.

I think that if you are going to spank, it should be done when you aren't ANGRY or Frustrated. Discipline is NOT the time to take out your aggressions. IMHO

Escapee
Member

06-15-2004

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 1:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That was horrible, that is why I believe that you should only spank once, and only when you are not angry or frustrated. A child old enough to have a report card is old enough to be grounded and have special privelages taken away.

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 2:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
No problem, Escapee and thanks for your kind words. I guess I had a knee jerk reaction to your post because I have heard that phrase (what happened to you as a child?) used in ways that are meant to be harmful or insulting in debates. It is often very difficult to hear intent on a discussion board, and thank you for clearing it up. I'm truly sorry for coming across harshly.

This is really a good discussion (in my eyes!), and I hope people will continue to participate. The above list of why not to spank is helpful in some ways, but the problem with it is that it seems to refer to only one type of spanking, and it doesn't really explain the type of spanking it refers to.

My experience has been that spanking occurs in all sorts of way - the quick swat, a measured response, and/or only in extreme situations and all the way to whenever it strikes the parent's mood and out of control angry spanking and threatening behavior. It's important that we at least give a nod to that fact, that when we talk about "spanking" we may be talking about very different things.

While I still disagree with even a swat or single whack or two to the behind, they are way lower on my radar than parents who spank all the time or out of their anger. Many of the folks who speak against spanking speak only of the latter kind of spanking; without acknowledging that some kinds of spanking are clearly less harmful than others.

My problem with spanking is not only the physical violence, but also the humiliation. Try to put yourself in that child's shoes, having someone slap you across the face, hand, or bottom. Think of how you would feel if someone did that to you in order to "teach" you to mind them. If it is humilating to you, it is quite likely equally humiliating to your child.

Just because we have come to accept this as normal parenting behavior, doesn't make it right. Yes, we are all bound, obligated, to teach our children, to discipline them. But humiliation never needs to be part of that. There are more respectful ways to discipline, IMO.

Wargod's post was an excellent one about attitude toward parenting. Thanks very much War, for contributing that!

Happymom
Member

01-20-2003

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 2:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wow what a file. Some of it is a bit extremist. But it has some things to think about. Here are a couple of quotes from that page:

"Physical punishment once permeated Western society: husbands beat wives, teachers beat students, abbots beat novices, officers beat enlisted men, police beat suspects, the judiciary beat petty criminals, masters beat apprentices. Every last one of these classes of formerly-beatable people has now won legal relief except one: children."

I realize that in this thread we are not really talking about beating.

"Children remain legally hittable not because there is one single scrap of evidence that they benefit from it or "need" it. Children remain legally hittable for only one reason: because they have the least political clout."

When I was in elem. and jr. h.s., kids were paddled with a wooden paddle. I wonder what parents who do spank their kids would think if they knew a principal or teacher, babysitter, grandparent, parent of one of their friends gave them a very gentle spank on the bottom. Would you be for it or against it and why? I really am just interested in the answer to that question. I hope someone will answer me. I am not trying to bait at all.

In re: to some of the things Karuuna said, I also wonder how adults who do think it's ok to spank to any degree would feel if thier boss gave them a little swat, even if it was so gentle as to not hurt a bit.

I really am not trying to rile up anyone at all and hope I am not. I am not riled up, I do have my opinions, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I really am just looking for answers to my questions. (I just feel the need to explain because this can be such a heated issue whereas I probably wouldn't feel it necessary to explain my opinions on Donald Trump for example.)

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 2:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
What good would a gentle spank on the bottom do? A "gentle spank" is an oxymoron, isn't it?

That is funny happymom, just thinking of a boss giving an adult employee a swat on the butt. What if he used a belt?

Denecee
Member

09-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
If my boss gave me any kind of spanking, I would tear his head off. Now, if my DH was to give me a spanking, I might like it.LOL!

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
oh, Denecee, that's a TMI (too much information) offense. 15 yard penalty for you!

Denecee
Member

09-05-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
We are all adults here, aren't we?

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:35 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I have said before that while I dont agree with spanking per se I do see a difference. I truly would wish anyone who uses an object on a child to objectively think about what they are doing. I also do have a problem I guess with Men hitting girls, even if they are their children. I dont know why but I have a problem with it.

A calm measured one slap or tap when a child is in danger, I would not necessarily agree with but wouldnt object as strenuously as I would to other forms.

I was on the train today coming home, a woman was with her two children, a younger girl about 4 and an older boy about 5 1/2. The little girl was a spitfire, not stop talking, first she turned in her seat to the boy and said what color are your eyes are they purple? she put her foot on the seat, she got a slap because her foot was on the seat. The boy put his hands in his mouth, fast as you can a slap to the arm, take your hand out of your mouth. What I found really interesting is that both children just looked at the mother, said nothing and went on as if she had done nothing. That shocked me more than anything else, they were immune to it. How is that effective?