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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:39 pm
I have seen many people in the face of judgement remain calm and not defensive, because they truly felt good about their decision (whatever it was). I think we become defensive when we ourselves are not 100% confident in our choice, and we are not only trying to justify it to others but convince ourselves too.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:41 pm
It's not a weight issue as much as it is a status issue. You have respect for an officer of the law don't you? Let me put it this way... If you sped past a police officer and all he did was blow his whistle at you and tell you to stop or else, would you? If all he ever did was blow his whistle, you wouldn't stop, you wouldn't have any respect for "authority", now, if he pulled you over and cited you, taking "time out" of your day to do so, you might not be so quick to speed the next time. But, hey a ticket goes off your record, or you say, "oh it's just a ticket" per say, and you do it again. But if you knew that if you were to do it again, you'd be arrested (spanked), would you do it? Afterall, you were warned, and you persisted. I'll bet for every 20 timeouts a non-spanker gives, a spanking parent only has to give one spanking.. I have been bigger than my mother since I was 10. I didn't fear her size or her at all for that matter, i feared the reprecussions of my actions.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:42 pm
People become defensive when they feel they are being criticized for something that is no one elses business, not when they aren't 100% sure (although I am sure they become defensive then too).
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:52 pm
But with a child--it is a weight and height issue. A cop may be smaller than you.
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Abby7
Member
07-17-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:55 pm
I've been reading this thread for a couple of days now. I've decided not to comment because I tend to get too involved at times; and, sometimes find it hard to follow the rules of the board. So, I keep my opinions to myself. However, the subject of the belt came up. I couldn't resist but to post. I found the cutest belt the other day. It hangs low on the hip, silver...just so cute...AND, I got it for 50% off. Just had to share.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:56 pm
I was never afraid of how much bigger my parents were than me. I was afraid of the spanking. I don't ever remember being grounded. I guess that's this new generations "time out" I was sent to my room once, and I didn't go in there to "think" about what I had done. I was in there playing barbies. It was a reenergizing time. I did get my truck taken away from me when I was 17. I would have taken a spanking in front of my friends over having no vehicle any day.
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:56 pm
LOL@ABBY~
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:57 pm
Escapee, I still don't buy your metaphor. I do appreciate the additional explanation. For the metaphor to be appropriate for me, the metaphor has to involve physical punishment, ie, striking, slapping or hitting. Arresting to me does not equal being spanked. Arresting equals being detained (time out). Spanked equals maybe being thrown to the ground and handcuffed at the least, and at the extreme a billy club to the back. Physical force/retribution. I believe you are quite wrong about the time-outs given versus spankings given. There is no way to generalize such a thing because there are so many more variables at play here. Many parents use time outs and other forms of discipline very effectively. In fact, I rarely have to discipline my son at all because we have built a relationship on trust and mutual respect. He doesn't behave poorly out of respect for that relationship, and because he realizes he is always making decisions about what kind of person he will be. Through discipline I have helped him learn to internalize wanting to be a person he can be proud of; and so most of the time he chooses in line with that. Some of the time he's like me, and just does what feels good at the moment. I'm not going to speak to anyone else's personal situation, including yours, since that is usually a recipe for disaster. Kep, I think sometimes people hear judgment and accusation, even when it's not intended. I think it's best to just decide not to take things personally in a forum such as this. No one else really knows us, how can their judgment have any meaning anyway? That's just how I look at it.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:59 pm
ROFL, ABBY!!!!!!!!
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Escapee
Member
06-15-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:59 pm
Wow comparing a spanking to being thrown down and a billy club attack! Kar.....what happened to you as a child? I agree, but what you are describing is abuse. Slapping in the face is abuse, a swat on the but or the back of the legs is not.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 5:02 pm
Escapee, this reminds me of when I was dating and deciding what was 'too far' with a boy....above the shirt, no bra. under the shirt with a bra. pants unzipped but not down.......isn't it all kind of splitting hairs?
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 5:09 pm
Escapee, why would it matter what happened to me as a child? What does that have to do with anything we're talking about? Or is this just one of those silly discrediting debate tactics? I was only try to go with YOUR metaphor of dealing with the police. That is the *closest* behavior that police would engage in that would equate with physical punishment. For me, in order for the metaphor to be appropriate, it must include someone of greater power inflicting physical pain on someone. That's why your arrest comparison doesn't work for me, no one is slapping, smacking or whacking anyone. That was all I meant by it. So, now should I ask you why YOU went to such a weird place? Maybe it's your childhood spankings haunting you? 
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Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 5:16 pm
Karuuna, I agree that sometimes critizism (please excuse spelling) is perceived where it isn't really communicated... but calling someone's actions child abuse could possibly seem critical and judgmental.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 5:21 pm
Why is it so seeming impossible for the spanking parents to not work it out a different, non violent way? Because it CAN work.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 5:30 pm
Kep, good point. I've not used that term because it is emotionally loaded. At the same time, i can see both sides; that some people do think using an implement of some kind to hit your child is child abuse. Some legal entities also call it child abuse (to use an object to hit your child). And in most countries in Europe it is also illegal. So I think that's where it gets difficult. If folks are going to go that route, I think it's fair for them to know that in some places it is legally defined as child abuse; and so you may well anticipate therefore that some folks are going to call it that as well? Like it or not, they have some grounds for it, whether everyone agrees that it is or not.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 6:11 pm
I was a Court appointed child advocate for a while. In our training they taught us the worst situation for prosecution and teaching was the parent of the child who came in with welts all over their leg/arm. You interview the parent and ask what happened and they say 'well, i told her not to touch the stove (bite, hit, cross the street..whatever) and if she did, I would take the electrical cord (belt, switch, whatever) to her. Because in that parent's mind there was a cause and action, and no arbutary violence, regardless of the welts on the child.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 6:12 pm
So basically we are falling on deaf ears?
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Kep421
Member
08-11-2001
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 6:17 pm
I can't speak for the law because I simply don't know the laws governing what constitutes child abuse. But I think that if a person's actions are to be judged as child abuse, the court is exactly where such judging should take place. I'm jes saying that implying someone is a child abuser who has not been convicted or even charged with such a crime is a bit critical and can tend to make the accused take a defensive position.
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Jimmer
Member
08-30-2000
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:18 pm
I find this is a really delicate issue. I think that people sometimes get hung up on the term spanking and that it can mean vastly different things to different people, varying from a mild swat on the bottom to a beating. Now of course many would argue that even a mild swat is too much. Not being a psychologist or a well-read expert in this field, all I can base my opinion on is personal experience. I can only remember being spanked a couple of times as a child (once by my Mom and once by my Dad) and both times I had done something pretty bad. Neither time was I hit in a remotely hard way (it didn’t even hurt), though I can remember I was so overcome when my Dad did it, that I could barely breath. I was mostly embarrassed and upset that he had caught me doing what I did. Now having said all of this, I absolutely adored my parents (past tense because they are gone now) and I wouldn’t change a thing about how they treated me and loved me all their lives. IMO I couldn’t have had better parents. And, yes, they did spank me. The second point I would like to make is that there are so many other ways to abuse a child without physically touching them. I’m not suggesting anyone here would do this but keeping a child isolated for an extended period could also be considered abusive. Extreme verbal abuse is another form of abuse that can be very cruel. All done without physical contact. All I’m trying to say is it is very hard to generalise and exert your views on other people in this area.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:50 pm
Jimmer, I agree with much of what you have written. Thank you for jumping in. Re whether hitting with a belt is child abuse or not, allow me to note that I have worked in two different counties in my state as a therapist. In one county, I was required to report to CPS any incidents of a child being hit with anything other than an open hand, as well as excessive open-handed hitting. In the other, reporting was required only if there were marks left. CPS would then investigate those reports. Normally they would simply recommend that the parent not use an implement to spank or they may be charged with a crime; they did not usually prosecute on one occurrence. In Sweden, even spanking with an open hand is against the law. I understand that people would be defensive; but those are the facts of the law. I personally am not accusing anyone here of abusing their children, but for someone to say they think some forms of punishment are abusive seems to be me to be reasonable given our varying laws on the issue. I understand that it is hard for some people to hear that. Personally, I don't really get defensive over what folks post about me on a discussion board. As I said before, they don't know me. I find it a helpful attitude to adopt.
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Abby7
Member
07-17-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:20 pm
I went back and read Grace's original post: Help! Jai is starting to drive me up a wall. He's been hitting me in the face when he doesn't like what I have to say for the past month or so. I usually flick his hand when he does it but he doesn't get the point. But new this week is biting me. I swear he almost made me bleed twice this afternoon. He swoops in like he's going to give me a kiss on the cheek and then chomps down. I don't bruise often but there was a mark for a good 2 hours afterwards on both cheeks today. What do I do? He doesn't seem to get that he shouldn't bite. ----------------------- Grace asked "What do I do?". I think Grace has received some very helpful information, in that the responses give Grace information what has worked for various TVCH members.
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Abby7
Member
07-17-2002
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:45 pm
oops, sorry forgot to add the post that Grace added just minutes after her original post: BTW, I should add he doesn't do this to anyone else but me - so it's something I'm doing. He tried hitting dad today and was spanked (just like I do) and he didn't try it again
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Graceunderfyre
Member
01-22-2004
| Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 11:39 pm
Hi All, I really didn't mean for this question to get so involved! I thank everyone for their 2 cents, I've gotten a lot of ideas on this. I do believe in spanking - I don't think it's violence - I'm a child of abuse (physical and mental), molestation, and ADHD. I'm telling you this to tell you that I KNOW the difference between what is violent and what is not. I can tell you that I needed to be spanked from time to time because I was a mischevious kid that had way TOO much energy (my mom refused to medicate me). I don't really want to get into it too much - I've avoided this topic for a few days because I do get upset about it. They have also done studies that show until a certain age, you cannot reason with kids - so time outs, talking, that sort of thing is not going to help. My son is one of these kids for sure - he does not understand. I ask him, do you want to be spanked and sometimes he says yes and sometimes he says no. It's the same when we ask him if he's hungry. I def. agree with whoever it was that said different kids/parents have different methods that work for them. That's really why I posted. I wanted to see what kinds of things were working/not working for people. My problem isn't so much what to do in general, it's what to do because DS ONLY hits/bites me. Nobody else. Today he started to hit DH who simply gave him a look and DS was hugging and kissing him sorry. I don't have that kind of power over him. But he spends a lot more time with me than DH, so maybe that's why. . .
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Wargod
Moderator
07-16-2001
| Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:45 am
Grace, I have a theory about why it's only you and sometimes your husband. Kids know (even the little ones) that no matter what you do you're always going to love them and always going to be there for them. They can do stuff like that to you and know you aren't going to leave them and that you'll be there to comfort and play with them when they get over their bad attitude. You may get your feelings hurt, not like what they did, and discipline them but they know you won't stop loving them, and since for especially the younger kids their parents are usually the center of, if not their whole, world that's what matters to them. I'm not a spanker. Time outs worked for my kids when they were little, still work for Kota now at 6. But the worst and most effective punishment now is taking away their limited tv/computer time or grounding them to the house. Nothing gets them acting right quicker than taking away Dakota's outside time or Caleb's computer time! I think the most important thing with discipline is being consistent, following through, and the patience of a saint. Discipline doesn't have to equal punishment. When we praise them for making a good choice or reward them for working hard at a difficult task we're disciplining them by teaching them that postive actions have positive reactions. They don't have to get a treat everytime they do something good, but a word or two about it goes a long way. It does work with the littlest ones too. My 17 month old niece was horrible about picking up anything she could get her little hand around and shoving it in her mouth. It was bad enough that we'd be scared to take our eyes off her for a second because you never knew what she'd have crammed in her mouth. One day while she was here (she was maybe 10 or 11 months old) I caught her with something in her hand, instead of saying No! and taking it away I asked her to bring it to me and motioned her over. When she came, I held out my hand and when she gave it to me, I told her Thank you! and gave her a hug. She's gotten pretty good at this game and sometimes we'll find her crawling around on the floor just looking for something to bring to us, each time she places it in her hand she gets her Thank you and a hug. A few months after starting this with her my sister and I were talking on the phone when she mentioned the baby had been doing something weird for a couple weeks. Sis said she'd pick something up and bring it to her and then stand and stare at her for awhile. I asked her when the last time she had to fish something out of the baby's mouth was and she couldn't remember, so I told her what we'd been doing here with her. It's now something the whole family knows to do with her and it works, though once in awhile she needs a little reminder. Wonder if something like that would work with him. Next time he swoops in and gives you a hug and kiss thank him, tell him what a sweet surprise it was and how you liked that. At the least it might teach him that giving mommy kisses will get him much better results than biting mommy will.
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Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Friday, April 08, 2005 - 8:29 am
Good advise Wargod! One thing that worked for us, lectures. My dh was and is very good at giving lectures about the error of children's behavior. To this day, my (barely)grown children say that they behaved because they did not want to be lectured. As they got older the lectures got longer, but that and standing in the corner for however minutes they are old worked for us. My youngest took her turn in the corner at 1 yrs old, but she was a mature 1 yr old(was potty training herself).
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