TVCH FORUMS HOME . JOIN . FAN CLUBS . ABOUT US . CONTACT . CHAT  
Bomis   Quick Links   TOPICS . TREE-VIEW . SEARCH . HELP! . NEWS . PROFILE
Archive through March 26, 2004

The TVClubHouse: General Discussions ARCHIVES: 2004 Nov. - 2005 Jan.: Parenting Place {ARCHIVES}: Struggling with Parenting, WWYD?: Archive through March 26, 2004 users admin

Author Message
Reader234
Member

08-13-2000

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 7:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Just need to get it out, today was a bad day, and will go down as such, well remembered in years to come... but until then...WWYD (What Would You DO?)

In the safety of the internet,I'll pour out my story...

Today, 9:00am, (I sub at her school, dd 1st grader, determined, leader, strongwilled, higher intelligent...) I noticed her sitting in this room alone, I walked away,thought better, and came down, read her the "riot act" knowing she has problems trying to "control" the class, and doesnt come across as "kind"... she had a kleenex in her hand... I thought I was reinforcing the ideal, you must be kind to your fellow classmates, yadda yadda... 9' 30 am the principal shows me why DD was isolated... she had written a note (forgot to find out "to who the note was written...!) the note said... " I murdered Zach, and I would do it again" (Zach is the classmate that died in the tragic soccer goal incident) OK.. I listened, the principal is going to keep her with him, and call the social worker from the 5th 6th grade building over... ok .... (need time to process I am stunned I talk in a brainstorming fashion, reassuring dh and I dont yell, or fight, we are a respectful home... dd was very angry last night with school, they gave an assembly, and only those "chosen" got candy... I told her "life is not fair (hmmm Zach's death isnt fair either) and that its not easy to learn to be a "good sport" and maybe by this assembly you can learn that, you are not always kind, you are not always a "good sport" I remember the school is being torn down, I remember that she is doing a research project on Princess Diana.... ok... I went and read the book she used for her research, land minds, death, funerals... am I reading too much into this?

Just talked to her, she sat on my lap... "I dont want to talk about it" I wont talk to a social worker, I dont like social workers, and I wont answer... I was going to throw the note away. I wont talk about it..

My heart feels that in today's society, we have to look at this... but are we over anaylzing? She is a first grader I dont allow her to watch pg13 movies, its Disney Chanel (not even rugrats, I am a mean mom!) Her teacher feels strongly that we need to get to the bottom of her needs, that the teacher is not meeting her needs.. "does she need attention, should I let her read in front of the class to gain attention?"

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccckkkkkkkkk!! :-) :-) This too shall pass, and soon shall be an intersting memory...

Justavice
Member

07-12-2003

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 8:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wow. I am so sorry you all are going through this. Have you thought about whether or not your DD has felt guilty about her friend's death and her survival of death? I don't know what I would do specifically, but I would definitely talk to her about her friend's death and her understanding of it.

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wow, Reader. A lot to deal with!

Obviously your daughter has some very strong feelings about school issues and her classmates.

However, I've never found it helpful to *deny* someone's strong feelings, or tell them that they are wrong to have 'em. First graders do have strong feelings, often very angry ones. And they have a very rigid sense of fairness. The trick is more trying to get them to express their upsets in healthier ways.

When my son was in first grade, he threatened to bring guns and knives to school to do away with some of his classmates. Now I have no doubt he was just 'talking big', but a fellow first grader reported it, and he got sent to the principal's office and I got called. Long story, but the issue for me was not one of trying to get him to 'be nice''... it was more one of trying to find out why he had such strong feelings, making him feel like he had an ally, and helping him learn to deal with those feelings in ways that won't get him arrested.

I think your daughter's teacher may have a point. She does have some strong needs, I"m not sure getting all the attention (by reading in front of the class) is the right way to address those needs. I do think getting to the bottom of her struggles and helping her work thru those issues in a *strongly supportive* way, not a judgmental one, is called for. Remember that validating her feelings is not the same as giving her permission to act on them. It just means you acknowledge that she IS angry, or stressed or frustrated. The teaching part is not to teach her to not feel that way, but it is to teach her constructive things to do when she does feel that way.

In my experience, first graders are not usually kind, and they are rarely good sports. They are still very egocentric and most of them pretty much still think they are the center of the universe. So I wonder about all the messages that you are giving her about being nice and a good sport, maybe you're expecting a bit too much developmentally?

I think your daughter's anger in not getting candy was actually legitimate. No one likes to feel left out. Even adults feel that way. We may feel murderous at that too. Rather than telling her to just up and deal, I think I might have said "of course you're angry. You would have liked some candy too!" and then commiserate with her -- "it stinks that life isn't always fair, doesn't it?" Dissipating anger is often best done not by denying it's legitimacy, but by validating it. Sometimes you just need someone to hear how you feel, and that takes the energy away from that feeling. But I know when someone says "you shouldn't be angry" to me, well, heck, that just makes me madder! :-)

You are right, it will pass. I rarely think about that incident with my son any more, and can laugh about it now.

Here's my hope and prayer that your compassion for your daughter and a sincere desire to understand her feelings drives your problem solving. It's kind of a bummer that kids rarely behave like we want them to. It would be much better if they did, and then we could feel like really good parents, instead of feeling like we're fumbling our way thru the darkness!

(((((Reader)))))

Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I do know that at that age, my daughter became very obessed with death. Who died, how they died, ect. Even historical figures she would say instead of "George Washington was the father of our country" it would be "GW is dead".
My daughter is also highly imaginative and sometimes has issues of playing fair. I think they have the ability to think past their current behavior and project out to what might happen. It could very well be that "she isn't always nice and plays fair, life isn't fair, my friend died, a nice princess died, I might die" or it could just be misplaced anger. I might see if the school would back off of her a little and then see if you could somehow do play therapy with her when she isn't so riled up.

Egbok
Member

07-13-2000

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Oh Reader, my heart goes out to you!! I'm not going to offer advice...okay, I probably will, however let me say that my first reaction is that dd is calling out for something....attention?

I'm not sure how I would react but I'd think letting her talk with the social worker (who hopefully is trained to bring forth the issue of why dd wrote this statement) is what I would go forth with. Yes, dd says right now that she won't answer/won't talk but I think that if the social worker handles the meeting with compassion, concern and patience, that dd will open up to the social worker...maybe as a one-on-one? I don't know. What I do know is that I feel for you from one mother to another and I'll keep you, dd and your family (and the social worker) in my thoughts and prayers. Please let us know the outcome...we are here to listen.

((((Reader & Family))))


Mamie316
Member

07-08-2003

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:50 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Reader, I am sorry that you are dealing with this. It seems like your child has some unresolved issues with Zach's death. I mean, honestly, how much can we expect first graders to really understand about death, even if they are highly intelligent? Think of how hard it is for adults to deal with death. We always tell our children (I did it too) that life is not fair but for a child, it should be fair. It sounds like she is angry about Zach leaving and she doesn't know what to do with it. I'm sure she didn't mean anything bad with her note, she probably just doesn't know how to phrase her anger. I am sure with time and your love, she will open up more.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 10:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I am so sorry your DD is having such a rough time. I pray she will find peace

Reader234
Member

08-13-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 7:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thanks for the kind words of support and encouragement!

Lots of hugging and crying last night!! Then dh came home at 9 pm and wanted to start at the beginning... I had convinced her to go to school, but if at anytime she felt stressed, upset, nervous, that she would go to the nurse, and I called the nurses hotline and left a message to call me whenever dd came to visit... and I agreed to come visit her during her lunch hour... Then I woke up at 3 am and fell asleep at 5, and dd and I overslept!! *G So, she is staying home today! I think its important for her to have an escape route!

Spring break starts Monday, but I will see about the social worker, the trick imho is finding one that I believe will help her! I agree it may take time, and I agree that having her feelings acknowledged is very important, and powerful! Thank you for reminding me! "Expecting too much" well, of course! (*duh!) it seems so simple, you always know that we are "typed" from an early age, cheerleader type, jock type, bossy type, shy type, geek type... and you'd think we could mold them, help them, push them?! Providing opportunities, showing her, and always loving her, its always important, to step back, re evaluate and do better!



Jan
Member

08-01-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 9:23 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Reader, I just found this thread. I am so sorry you and your dd have this problem to get through :-(.

I cannot offer advice as I have no children but something struck me about the note:
" I murdered Zach, and I would do it again"

Did she have a fight with Zach before he was killed? So often little ones seem to think that if they wish someone were dead or hurt..and then the person gets hurt or killed , they think their wish did it. Does she still feel anger toward him and can't get over the combination of anger and guilt??

I don't know. i am probably over simplifying it.

I sincerely hope you and she are able to resolve this soon. My heart goes out to you. Hugs.



Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 11:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Good for you Reader. Just love her, like I know you do. My son had some real anger issues around that age, and I certainly had to change my approach and do a lot of things differently. I was also expecting too much. Gulp. The good news is we have a great relationship now, he is no longer an 'angry child' and he really feels like he can tell me anything (3 years later).

I know you'll do just fine. And I'll keep y'all in my prayers. let us know how it goes.

Mygetaway
Member

08-23-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 3:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
{{Dear Reader,}} I was going to say exactly what Jan said here:
Did she have a fight with Zach before he was killed? So often little ones seem to think that if they wish someone were dead or hurt..and then the person gets hurt or killed , they think their wish did it. Does she still feel anger toward him and can't get over the combination of anger and guilt??

I may have read wrong, but I also think it would be a good idea for her to see someone not affiliated with the school at all, since she also has issues with the school right now. She may feel like she'll never get a "fair deal" with anyone there. My son also had issues during that time, and he always blamed the teachers/principal, etc. In grade 5 when he changed schools and started out new, he found out that maybe some of it was really him and his attitude.

I'm sorry you're going through this. Just to add, when my son was in 1st grade, he also said something about taking my gun to shoot somebody, jokingly. I got rid of it that night and have never owned one since.

Abbynormal
Member

08-04-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
We are having a huge problem with our 20 yr old son right now. Allow me to give you some background on him.

11 yrs old - was caught smoking cigarettes.

13 - caught drinking.

15 - stole my car in the middle of the night. When I went after him in the other car and found him he tried to out-run me. When he finally pulled over, he had a girl in the car with him. When I pulled him out of the car, he asked me what my problem was.

16 - I woke up at 2:00 am one morning to 6 very drunk kids in my basement. They were not there when we all went to bed around 11:00pm. My son was nowhere to be found.

16 - was found with a girl in his bed.

17 - ran away from home.

18 - dealing drugs from our home.

18 - quit school 2 months from graduation.

These are just a few of this boy's transgressions. He has been a trial his whole life. A funnier, more loving kid you will never meet. Charm out the whazzu. Voted best personality in school. But if he told me it was dark outside at midnight, I'd have to check to make sure.

He went to work with my DH out of state for 2 1/2 months. He made over $30,000. He does not have ONE cent of the money. While making all this money he bought a 2004 truck. Fine, except he has only worked a total of 6 days since coming home.

He will not get up in the morning, he stays out all night. Trying to talk to him is the most frustrating thing I have ever done. He agrees readily on all points made. He sees what must be done. Problem is he NEVER does anything!

We once again went over the house rules. Absolutely NO females here unless we are home and then they can visit in the living room. So he gets a job, supposed to be there at 6:30 am. I wait up for him until 11:45 pm. He comes in high as a kite. We argue yet again and I go to bed. I woke up at 1:30 to the sounds of sex going on in him room. I went ballistic. I called her everything but human, and proceeded to kick them both out. I told him to give me the key and never come back. He had the nerve to act shocked.

Now DH and I are fighting. I don't care if he or anyone here thinks badly of me, I am absolutely sick to death of this kid! I don't care where he goes, where he sleeps, or what he eats. I'm so through. I feel nothing but complete anger at him. My mother says I'm hurt. I don't feel hurt, I feel pissed. I think I am hardening my heart already, because I feel the future for him is either death or prison. Unless he gets it together, which I don't think he has the balls for. I have never abused my kids physically or emotionally, but I finally have to admit to myself, my kid is a loser.

My problem is that he is not paying for the new truck. My husband doesn't want him to ruin his credit at the age of 20. So DH wants us to take on the payments, of course we would take the truck, already have. But I want to let it go. I don't think that we should have it hard financially for a kid that has never shown one ounce of respect. He knew he was going to lose it and did NOTHING to prevent it.

I hope this makes sense. I am going through alot of emotions right now. What would you do about the truck? Keep it and suffer a change of lifestyle or ruin a 20 yrs old credit? I don't feel I owe him any more of anything. If you respond, please be kind. I don't need advise on what I should have done, way back when. This kid has had therapy, the police and I are on first names basis, and there's been too many groundings to count.

Thanks for reading.


Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Have you tried telling him that unless he abides by your rules, he doesn't get the priviledge of living there, and then following through?

Abbynormal
Member

08-04-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Texannie, he no longer lives here. I asked for advice about the truck.

Reader234
Member

08-13-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
{{{HUGS}}} far be it from me Abby to give advice!! BUT I can reach out and give a cyber {hug}. My brother had lots of problems, many of them stemmed from drugs (and so I say to you, its not YOUR fault with the choices HE'S made!!) My brother ended up moving to Texas, and that got him away from his friends and drugs, Iknow he was'/is very lucky!! A coworker has a son who they just found out has manic/depression, and was in trouble with the law, they are trying a version of tough love (he was sentenced to a juvy type place that included psych help) every day its an issue, and her and her dh love thier son, but they seem to be where you are at, how hard to keep your relationship, and your self up, and going!! I wish for you so much...

for you only asked for wwyd with the truck, I think it is very easy for me to sit on this side of the computer and say, "oh I know, I would sell that truck" it seems easy, but you are tied with love/hate and so that complicates the issue. I'd be very afraid of how the drugs and his friends are influencing his fun lifestyle... its one thing that worries me about our society today, the "I have to have it now" the 'earning' it the "deserving" has so been skewed. Can you dialogue? If you and your dh dont present a united front, I cant imagine how hard that is... it reminds me of the Dr Phil show of the son who was on drugs, and had a 'devil may care' attitude... they also went thru a version of tough love... why do kids think the parents owe them so much? He has made choices, and with the truck, he seems to have lost that priveledge because he acts like it doesnt matter, for that it reminds me of my brother, when he was on drugs, he was so lost, it was like he lost the ability to love, to care... how can you make someone care? How can you lesson the effects?

we dont ask easy questions do we?? Again, know I reach out with {hugs}

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I have a 12 year old and my biggest problem at this point is having a kid that answers back. So, I am offering up an opinion from someone who hasn't been there.

Regarding the truck, if he took a loan and you didn't cosign the loan, ie it is all on his head then I would do nothing and let the bank repossess it if he defaults. It isn't your headache, it is between him and the bank. If however, you or your husband cosigned the loan, then I would sell the truck. Sorry, it is your credit rating and if you do not need a truck then sell it. Regarding ruining his credit, he can get over that once he straightens out his life. Ruining his credit is the least of his worries and I am sure yours.

I can understand you being angry, because you were there all the time and you were fighting for for him to get it.

You feel you have done everything for him and you just want to smack him upside the head. I am familiar with that situation. I know a kid, the brightest you can imagine, great personality can be really sweet. Started getting into trouble when he was about 12, drugs, troubles with the police then dropped out of high school in the last year. Parents running to help him out of every mess, because he is their child and they want to help. After dropping out of high school, he had to get a job in McDonalds and when he realized how hard he had to work for that minimum wage he decided to go back to high school. They arent out of the woods yet, not by any stretch but you have to just hope that the good nature they once had will come out again. That isnt up to you, it is up to him.

Ultimately, you can only do what you believe and feel is right and try not to let it come between your husband and you. Dont let your relationship be another victim in this mess. I feel for you and wish you all the best.



Kady
Member

07-30-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree with Maris about the truck, if I didn't cosign, I would let it go back. It may take a few months of making the payments for your husband to agree to this. Good credit does not sound like it is of importance to your son. Hopefully one day he can straighten up his life and get a chance to start rebuilding his credit by himself. ((((Abbynormal)))

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:30 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Abby, I'm so sorry you are going thru this.

Like Maris, my son is young, so I've not been thru this as a parent.

But I will tell you that my parents went thru this with my brother. And my mother bailed him out time and time again. The result - my brother never learned to live with the consequences of his behavior, so he never changed his behavior. And at 39 years old, he died of side effects from alcohol and drug addiction.

I don't know if your son is that bad. And I admit my own opinions may be biased by my experiences. But I firmly believe that kids, whatever age, need to reap the consequences of their behavior.

So I would sell the truck. Not in a vindictive way. In a very matter of fact way. No power struggle. If he asks, you just say that you couldn't afford to keep making the payments. No meanness, no accusations. And if he yells and gets mad, I'd try to stay in that same matter of fact tone of voice "i'm sorry you're angry, but we couldn't afford to make the payments. If you want another car, you'll need to pay for it yourself."

Somehow you will need to convince your DH that it is the right thing to do. Maybe if you acknowledge that you both love this son, and that you are trying to do what is really best for his future - not just his credit rating, but for his emotional health and ability to succeed, he needs to learn accountability. Give your DH lots of love and support, but gently and lovingly insist that it is best not to do anything that looks like bailing your son out at this point.

It's hard to avoid both ways - you wanna give in and make it all better; or you wanna scream and yell at him. But neither of those will really help him, and ultimately that's what you want, right? As angry as you are, he's your son, and what we all want, always, is for our kids to do well in life.

So, scream and vent here, love your DH into the right decision, don't give in, and do the truly kind thing. Sell the truck, and hide the animosity, if you can.

Many good wishes to you. Let us know how it goes!

Mamie316
Member

07-08-2003

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Abby, if the truck payments would be a financial difficulty, get rid of it. Plain and simple.

Abbynormal
Member

08-04-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Maris, your post was great and expressed my feelings exactly, except we were never big on the bailing out thing. He was always, always made to suffer consquences. It just seems like he never learned from his mistakes. The truck is in his name only, that's why I want it to go back. I feel he doesn't deserve good credit (by us paying for it) if he isn't willing to work for it. It would be a burden to us and if we could afford a brand new truck, I'm sure we would have bought ourselves one, ya know?

I have analyzed this kid tirelessly. It's like he sabatoges himself constantly. He has had so many great opportunites offered to him. He does something stupid and seemingly on purpose to mess it up every single time. I feel like he is afraid of succeeding or something. He is of the opinion that he has no control over his life, when in reality he is the ONLY person who has control. This is where we start to butt heads. I don't understand the defeatist attitude. I have no more of anything to give him. I don't know where he is, if he is working or anything. Right now I don't really care, but I do have the good sense to know, that that is just emotions talking. If anything were to happen to him, it would kill me. Despite his behavior all his life, we have always had the closest relation out of all my sons. Now, what does hurt is that our oldest son has also written him off. He says he just doesn't need that kind of crap in his life, he has no tolerance.

Unfortunately, this is driving a HUGE wedge between DH and I. I can honestly say I don't know what will happen, it's pretty bad.

Abbynormal
Member

08-04-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sorry, I was posting, thank you everyone so much for your insight. Kar, I was especially hoping to hear from you.

Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 5:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Abby, I am sorry, I misunderstood that it was only about the truck. Karuna said everything I wanted to say, but so much better!

Karuuna
Member

08-31-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 7:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Abby, are you saying that the truck is upside down in terms of loan outstanding to value of the truck? Is that why his credit rating would be ruined? I hope you and DH can find a compromise. I know you are very angry by all this, that's very understandable. As is your DH's reaction. He just wants it to be all better. I wonder if the two of you can focus on the idea that BOTH of you love this kid, frustrating as he can be, and besides whatever other feelings you might have. Maybe reminding each other of what you still have in common can help you form a bridge instead of a wedge. And, you don't have to decide today what to do. Maybe taking the pressure off will help as well.

Sometimes I think the hardest part of parenting is that some kids, some times, some things, they just have to figure out on their own. And the best thing we can do is not get in their way so they can figure it out. But it's very scary, 'cause they can hurt themselves so badly learning that way.

You can still be supportive and loving, while someone is taking the hard knocks they seem to need while learning to grow up. It's awfully hard to watch. And of course, it makes you angry because it seems so obvious to you; and you suffer too, watching them go thru all that.

But apparently it's not obvious to him, so he'll hopefully learn the hard way.

I'm kind of the white sheep of my family. So I had to learn how to love and be clear with them without getting sucked into their drama and destructive behavior. It wasn't an easy thing, but it is possible. I wish you all the best of luck, and I'll keep you all in my prayers as you work thru this.

PS - thanks Abby, I hope whatever I say you can find something of help. Ultimately, you are the best judge of what you should do right now.

And thanks, Texannie too! :-)


Juju2bigdog
Member

10-27-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 9:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Okay, so the car is in his name alone, so you do not have standing to sell it on his behalf, right? And therefore, the only options YOU and dh have are to either make the payments on his behalf or let it be repossessed?

I would let it be repossessed. Bad credit rating seems to be the least of his problems, and if it is not the car giving him the bad credit rating, it will soon be something else that is also beyond your control.

Karuuna? White sheep of the family? ROFL!

Theowl
Member

09-28-2000

Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Becki, you have mail!!