Author |
Message |
March
Member
10-02-2003
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:07 am
Abby, You mentioned that the truck is in your sons name only. I take it that the loan is in his name only as well. If that is the case and since you mentioned that you did not want the truck than let the bank take it back. As for selling the truck - you cannot just sell the banks assets. You have to talk to the bank first. The thing you have to remember also is that if you sell the truck for less than what is owing on the loan, the bank will still be looking for the remainer. So unless you and your DH are willing to look after that I would suggest you let the bank take it back now. They will sell it and if there is still money owing they would go after your son for it. Might sound a bit mean but he will never learn otherwise.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 2:18 pm
Reader? Abby? How are you and your respective kiddos doing? I've been thinking about you all lots!
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Abbynormal
Member
08-04-2001
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 4:12 pm
Hey Kar, thanks so much for asking! Welp, about the truck, what I failed to mention was that a payment has not been made yet. The first payment is now past due and another due in a week. We decided to let son handle it. He came over and we talked and yelled and talked and yelled. And I cried, ALOT, which is something I do maybe once a year. He is working everyday and is staying with some friends (nice ones) He has applied for an apartment and is trying to get up the money before he moves. He seems to think he can handle everything and I certainly hope he can. I don't begrudge him that, I sincerely hope he succeeds. This is a job he had before and he did absolutely LOVE it, there was never any problem with him getting up or going to work when he worked there. I apologized to him and told him how proud I am of him. I am sorry for some of the things I said to him, I intentionally tried to hurt him, as he had hurt me. That was dumb and childish and I admit that. But I will not apologize for my opinion of his friends and I let him know that. Deep down he knows this, and from what I hear he is not spending much time with them. (of course, those types of friends never come around anyway when there's no money) I think he is seeing that. So anyway, I am just loving him and telling him when I see him. I still don't want him coming over doing his laundry, DH thinks he should, I say if you're out, you're out. But that's just me. Maybe I'm a hard ass, as DH seems to think I am.
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Spygirl
Member
04-23-2001
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 8:30 pm
Abby, I am so glad to hear that things went as they did. While it sounds like it was a painful experience (and continues to be), it seems like you handled yourself very well. Tough love (or being a hard ass as you put it - lol) is sometimes the absolute best thing you can do for your children. Kudos to you for taking a firm stance while still showing him love at the same. Bigger kudos to you for taking responsibility for what you feel you did wrong while maintaining your position on what you feel you did not do wrong (your feelings about his friends, for example). Great job! 
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Justavice
Member
07-12-2003
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 8:46 pm
Abby- I don't have kids, but I have worked as a therapist with boys (11-18) on probation in residential treatment centers for the majority of my career. Most of the time, I feel like I have 12 of my own boys at once. Have you ever looked into to "tough love"? They have a great website at www.toughlove.org and offer support for parents who are experiencing similar issues. You are not alone, in fact there are many parents who are going through the same difficulties as their children go from adolescence to adulthood. And don't blame yourself. (You mentioned you didn't want to hear about what you "should have done".) Each child is so different, you have no control how they interpret or respond to your parenting. If you have other children who have contributed to society on some level (and it sounds like you do), you just need to give this difficult child an individual approach. My guess is that he is probably very bright and has more "potential" than your other children combined. These kids need lots of love, but I really recommend checking out the Tough Love website. There is a lot of support and validation for what you are going through.
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Monday, March 29, 2004 - 8:57 pm
Oh Abby!! Thank you for sharing!! {{{HUGS}}} I'm still praying... I'm praying that the Special Education Social Worker can cross the line and talk to DD. This week, I've backed off, its Spring Break. I believe that no one in her class is aware of the incident, and are innocent 1st graders. I have surrounded her with our Faith, bought books, coloring books too, and we are talking about Easter... when its appropriate! I know God has a plan, I just hope I dont "screw it up" ( famous words from a psych. that evaluted DS now in college!! humor.. just in case! ;)) Kar, thanks for asking, thanks all of you for listening, for caring, for positive thoughts, and prayers!! It means a lot!
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 7:32 am
Abby, what a great mom you are! It's so hard to own up to our mistakes, especially to our kids. I hope that this is a turn for him. Reader, big hugs! I know that screw it up feeling..always imagine the book they are going to write when they grow up! How does she seem to you?
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Abbynormal
Member
08-04-2001
| Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 3:31 pm
Thank you everyone for your thoughts, they are really appreciated. {{Reader}}, I can't believe you have one in college and one in 1st grade. You deserve an award right there! lol Please let us know how things turn out when you get back to school.
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 4:37 pm
Who is Becki?
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 9:41 pm
Hi, Abby! Thanks for checking in and letting us know how things are going. You've been on my mind! So, there has been some good news then, and I'm so glad to hear that. I hope he slowly continues to pull his life together and take care of his own business. You're doing the best thing to let him take care of it, and I'm glad your DH seems to be going along with that now. As for your trying to hurt him, please don't be too hard on yourself. I think the best definition of revenge I've ever heard is that it's the attempt to get someone else to feel what you felt. You were very hurt and upset by his behavior, and understandably so. As you look at it, perhaps you can apply your regret to future hurts, and remember that the goal is to get them to understand how you feel, and there are other ways of accomplishing that. Admittedly, it's not easy to be that centered when you're in pain. I continue to wish you all the best, and will continue to hold you in my thoughts and prayers. Again, thanks so much for sharing! 
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 9:42 pm
Reader, I'm glad to hear that you and your DD are getting a bit of a break from things. It sounds like you are connecting well with her, and that's a great step toward healing for both of you. As you continue to connect that way, you may find that moments present themselves where she may be more willing to talk about how she feels. If that happens, you might try to limit yourself to asking questions that keep her talking for awhile, without providing any explanations. The minute you start explaining or telling her another way to look at it, she may shut right back down. Eventually you'll want to provide some feedback, but see if you can make sure she's rather talked out first. Try saying "can you tell me more?" or "what else do you think about that?" We have a tendency to want to start responding to our kiddos long before they are done telling their stories, so we have to learn to draw their stories out of them with lots of nonjudgmental encouragement. Good luck with the social worker, and please do let us know how things go. I care. 
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:13 pm
Karuuna, I really tried your suggestions, they were very helpful for me... didnt help me get any where with dd however... she would sense things coming back and put a halt to them... and now she is worse than ever! I talked with the school's social worker, and she basically, well my interpretation of her talk was it was all my fault. I need to spend time with her just 15 min a day loving her, not doing any "intelligent stimulus" things, just letting her be a little girl. And I need to stop schlepping her to her brother's water polo activities, because I dont make her brother come to her things she shouldnt have to go to his things. (I take her as opposed to leaving her home alone...) YEsterday was a battle of all battles. I still find myself tearing up when I think about it. She wanted to rollerblade, so I picked her up early gave her the 30 min timer, than we needed to watch DS game (lots of prior discussion!) well, when the time was up, she exploded, with anger... spouting hateful mean things... over and over again. I set the timer and my expectations, than read a book, refusing to get caught up with her anger. SHe complied. One of her anger that blew me away "I hate you so much, you are the meanest mom, you are so mean when you have grandchildren, i will tell them how mean you are so they will hate you too!" Again, I refused tot ry and reason with her anger, and so I sang Jesus Loves me, and Amazing Grace... etc... I refused to say any negative comments (like "I hate your behavior, or I hate when you act like this, or you are 7, etc.. I just kept saying I will always love you - her response was I dont love you, I'll never love you etc...) She continues to be disrespctful in the extreme at school often. In between times tho, she is such a bright, loving, kind child... its truly like you are dealing with a hormonal teenager. I dont know if anyone can help.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:21 pm
(((Reader))) I don't know what to tell you. I do understand the battles about going to all the older sibling's stuff. We get that too. Not say AT ALL, that I agree it's your fault, but why not try the suggestion. It seems fairly easy and fun...could be worse, they might have told you to go run with her or play Barbies!!!!
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:51 pm
LOL Annie, actually I tried to tell that social worker WE DO THAT!! Every night. I sit with her in her room, we talk, share, and hug, then I say her prayers, and we both go to bed!! DH reads to her every night, and every morning now. He found it made the morning routine go ever so much smoother, no tv, just reading while she eats her breakfast... and dh does many, many daddy daughter days(outings), and I do mom and her moments - these did not count in social workers book. I had thought perhaps dd need more intellectual stimulation, because I wasnt providing that. i've since signed her up for piano lessons (something she wants, we have an electric piano she keeps "practicing" and would like more...) and I would love to play barbies with her!! LOL, but she has 'outgrown' barbies.... so I play with them myself!! (I like the barbies to have clothes on, and I often like to brush thier hair lol) and I actually run to keep up with her, when we go to the park she rides her bike, dh runs, I walk, and she rollerblades.... I'm thinking of trying to invest in paints, and see if we can work on a paint by number project. we did that last year, never finished it tho, but it was enjoyable...
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 6:30 pm
Reader, at this point, I would have her evaluated by a *licensed* child psychologist. I know that may be a financial hardship for you, but what's the alternative? It does sound like the social worker feels you are pushing her too hard, do you agree with that? I personally don't see a problem with you schlepping her to her older brother's activities. That's normal in most households, and you ought not feel guilty about it. I had terrible problems with my son's explosive anger from about 6 to 7. I definitely had to change my parenting methods, and it's made a tremendous difference for him. You wouldn't think it was the same kid. But it did get worse before it got better. It is good that you've stopped trying to reason with her when she's angry. Logic and emotion just don't mix. Think about what is most helpful to you when you are upset. For example, you're very hurt and understandably so over the things she said. What you need to hear is that anyone would be hurt over that, and we've all been there. I know how much it makes your heart ache. So, what you need is to know that someone understands how you feel. And we do! Perhaps your daughter would benefit from the same approach--Of course you're angry about going to your brother's activities, when he doesn't have to go to yours. That seems horribly unfair, doesn't it? and those things must be terribly boring to you.... You get the idea. Then, when she is calmer, because she knows you *heard* her, and understood her, you can say, we still have to go, and here's why. And you explain it once. Given your description of her behavior, I would still highly recommend finding a psychologist to work with. Since my son's father would not agree to allow our son to go, I just went to the therapist myself. I was more than willing to change my own behavior, to help my son, and tha'ts what we worked on. It took a year of some awfully painful days. There were times when I had to wrap my arms around him to restrain him and keep him from breaking things, while he flailed away in my arms. But all the while I held him, and he screamed about how much he hated me, I would whisper soothingly to him, I know you're angry, but I love you. and I love you too much to let you be destructive and hurt yourself and me. So I'm gonna hang on till you can learn to stop yourself. Eventually he would ask if I would let him go if he would behave. He still said he hated me, but he stopped breaking things. And slowly but surely over that year, the outbursts slowed, and he got calmer. And many times over those years, I cried myself to sleep over the hurtful things that he said, even tho I know he didn't really mean them. He just wanted me to feel as badly as he felt. I hope you can hear that. They say those things to make you hurt the way *they* hurt. It's a way of trying to be understood. Now we have a great relationship. He confides in me readily. We still have little tiffs now and then, part of being human. But remember, all this came about because *I* had to change. It's not a matter of assigning fault or blame. It's a matter of changing your behavior to help her to learn to manage herself better. I wish you the very best. Hang in there, believe me, I know how awful it is, and how frustrating. But I know your love for her will help you find the strength to do what you need to do.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 6:31 pm
Well, you are already a WAY better mom than me, I run when dd drags out those Barbies! LOL Of course, now they are Bratz dolls.
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 7:03 pm
{{{hugs}} Karuuna... and thanks... I think I will be rereading this a lot!! You're right about the cost, (I cant go into the problems, I'm in denial!!) I love that you told me your story, your changes, your tears... I was getting that yesterday, and I do think DH needs to hear it too! they say those things to make you hurt the way they hurt, I will keep saying that over and over again... lol texannie, I keep forgetting those Bratz, I dont lose thier shoes ie feet tho, and do you have a store of Polly Pockets - what's up with plastic dolls??
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Spygirl
Member
04-23-2001
| Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 7:37 pm
Reader, since I think you like to read (hehe), I highly recommend "Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child" by John Gottman. It is thin, easy to read, and is centered around what Karuuna is describing. You can get it HERE at Amazon for $10.40. I recommend all parents or anyone wanting to build better relationships with others read it. Good luck to you 
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 5:13 am
Thank you Spy, I was at the bookstore this weekend, but decided it was all overwhelming for me at the time!!
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Eliz87
Member
07-30-2001
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 6:09 am
I hope this post doesn't sound unsympathetic, Reader, because my heart truly does goes out to you. But have you tried ignoring her outbursts? It just doesn't seem that appropriate that you would start singing "Jesus Loves Me" after she just told you that she hated you, etc. The most I would have done, I think, is say, "I'm sorry you feel that way because I love YOU very much," and then immediately walk away. I wouldn't have given it any more attention than that. Also, have you tried pointing out to her verbally the things that you do to make her feel special and verbally point out how much you appreciate the fun times that you spend together? Maybe she needs the actions PLUS the words. I don't think she needs a psychologist at all, by the way. I used to work for a child psychiatrist and eight times out of ten, what the child really needed was more attention and/or more structure or discipline at home. The last thing she needs is to be made to feel like a child who is so troubled that she needs to see a doctor about it. That would be a profound blow to her self-esteem provided there's nothing neurologically wrong with her (have you talked to your family doctor?). Another possibility, of course, is that she could be entering early puberty. I started my menses at age 7, so although certainly rare, it's not completely out of the question, especially if these mood swings are predictable. And research has shown that girls ARE starting their periods earlier these days. Have you noticed armpit/leg/pubic hair growth? Finally, any physical issues notwithstanding, I feel that maybe in some ways she's trying to steamroll you. She's trying to get even more attention than she's already getting (and that's plenty I suspect). It'll pass, I think, as long as you continue to devote special time to her and she can see that she's not threatened by the time you spend with your son, etc. But don't let her walk all over you for fear of offending her sensibilities. She needs the security of knowing that you are the parent and she is the child.
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Faerygdds
Member
08-29-2000
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 8:20 am
I have a suggestion. It might seem completely outlandish, but hey... it works for me. I have a pretty unruly niece who like to do the "I hate you" thing. If I believed her, then I am the "meanest aunt in the whole wide world" and "no wonder God" didn't give me any babies. Yeah, that one usually hurts, not that SHE'LL ever know that. Anyway... I found a response that actually stopped her from say it... She says, "I hate you!" I say, "Good! Because every time I EVER told my Mom that... I had learned a really valuable lesson!" The second time she said it I said... "Of course you do... everyone hates it when someone makes them do something they don't want to do and do something they HAVE to do." After I said these things to her you could just see the little tiny cogs in her mind rolling around and processing THAT information! Two weeks later......... She cam and asked me if I really told "Grandma" that I hated her. I told her, "Yep... it's something that all kids say and no kid really means in their heart." We had a talk about why she said it and I told her I understood and all that, but it took some very confusing words (what I said) to get there. I had to say something that she wasn't expecting to get the desired reaction from her. Anyway... just a thought! BIG hug -- I know it's horrible to go through what you have to go through, but hang in there!
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Eliz87
Member
07-30-2001
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 9:33 am
Well, actually, I never dared to say that to my mother ("I hate you"). My goodness, I shudder to think what may have happened. I was by no means an abused child, mind you, but I most definitely knew not to cross THAT line! Also I hear kids telling their parents to shut up (my teenage niece and nephews tell their mother this pretty often). Wowee. I just don't get it. Honestly...why are so many kids so disrespectful to their parents??? I hate to say "these days" because maybe it's always gone on and I just wasn't aware of it when I was a child. But really...my friends and myself would have NEVER gotten away with such talk when we were children. Now, that's not to say that I wasn't a smart mouth teenager. In fact, I do recall getting popped in the mouth once for really saying something nasty to my mom. Well, actually, I didn't even say anything that nasty, but it's the tone of voice that I used and I raised my voice at her. Never did it again. (Well, I did do it as an adult, but I backed off quickly.) ETA: I'm only 33 so it's not like I'm looking back on the "good old days" or anything like that. This type of talk just was not permitted, period, in our home.
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Texannie
Member
07-16-2001
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 9:55 am
Not to put words in Reader's mouth, but as I remember this behaviour started after the death of one of her daughter's friends.
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Karuuna
Member
08-31-2000
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 9:56 am
Eliz, are you aware that Reader's child lost a classmate thru a very tragic accident? That's part of why I suggested the child psychologist. It is quite possible that some of her acting out has to do with not being able to deal with that tragedy. Also, I believe good child psychologists work more with the parents than they do with the children. But they do best when they can interview the child so they can get real insight into what's going on for that child. Then they can help the parents find more effective ways of interacting with that child. That's the ultimate goal. I hate that there is still a stigma about seeking help, for adults or children. To say that the child should feel like she is "so troubled" that she has to see a psychologist validates that negative stereotype. I think as a society we'd all be better off if we could get past that. Parenting is the most difficult job we'll ever have. Therefore, I'm amazed that it's the one job that we think we don't need any training, or even professional help if it's warranted. Personally, I think admitting we don't have all the answers and seeking those answers is an act of courage and maturity. That's exactly the example we ought to be setting for our kids. I honestly think that in most cases you should NOT totally ignore outbursts. Yes, too much attention, negative or positive, will encourage them. But this child, I think, is acting out because she is carrying some very heavy baggage. The trick is always finding the balance - validating feelings without rewarding the bad behavior of acting out those feelings. It's only when you validate the feelings without judging them that kids feel like they can start to open up and talk about them, instead of acting them out. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with singing during an outburst. In fact, I often did it myself with my son (we always sang Kum By Yah - come by here, Lord, someone's crying, someone's sad, someone's angry, etc) - and eventually he learned to join in. It became a way of soothing strong feelings, and joining back together, instead of being at odds. The attitude is the crucial element. If you're singing to drown out the child's ranting, then that's not good. If you're singing to soothe yourself and your own strong feelings, the child comes to learn that as a coping technique for his/her own strong feelings. If we all started singing something soothing when we got angry, that would be a good thing! I've spent many years working with children who were in much more dire straits, who had suffered severe physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The principles are the same, whether kids have mild issues or major ones. Empathy and real understanding of how they feel, coupled with calm and loving (but firm) teaching of the appropriate expression of those feelings is always the best solution in my opinion. Self esteem is partially imparted thru being understood and valued, and it doesn't really matter who does the hearing - an empathic psychologist or a patient and understanding parent. The other half of self esteem then comes from teaching kids how to handle themselves, and the sense of accomplishment thru achievement. Kids have strong emotions at times. We all do. Best to teach them that the emotions are okay, however the real teaching is about what to do with those emotions. I don't mean to lecture, although I'm probably doing just that. These are just issues that I've worked with in so many venues, both professional and personal. At any rate, I have great faith in Reader's ability to navigate these difficult times. I can see how much she loves her daughter, and her willingness to learn new ways to adapt her own behavior in order to help her daughter learn and grow. That's really the definition of a great parent! 
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Eliz87
Member
07-30-2001
| Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:54 am
Well, it sounds like DD was having issues before the death of her classmate. Reader noted in her first post that sometimes DD is not kind to her classmates and feels a need to be in control of the class (that is why she thought DD was sitting alone in the room to begin with -- she wasn't yet aware of the note DD had written when she saw her there alone initially). The title of the thread is "WWYD?". Obviously I don't REALLY know DD's situation, or Reader's situation, the family's situation, etc. but just going by what Reader has written and immediately ruling out any history of abuse or other psychological trauma, I responded as per what I, personally, would do. I should have added the disclaimer that this may not be the CORRECT thing to do as I'm not a licensed professional, but this is what I believe I would do if placed in the same situation before turning to outside help for which there may be no need. It is my opinion that the disrespectful behavior needs to be nipped in the bud immediately. What I see is that she's an exceptionally bright child who is testing her mother. Well...how can she learn to trust and respect mom if mom permits her to talk to her in such a manner? I know this is a child we're talking about, but would you confide in someone who couldn't stand up to you? Sometimes you've just got to show children that some behavior is unacceptable, and this cannot be accomplished by redirecting their attention to a song. I'd like to know what guru came up with this one. (I can see it now -- a young man or woman instigating a bar fight and humming quietly to themselves afterward -- WOWEE!!). And, at present, if she were taken to a therapist she would thrive on the attention and this would encourage her behavior further. I do agree, however, that maybe Reader should talk to an objective party on her own to learn how to better deal with this, as you did with your son (but still please consider the possibility that something may physically be going on with her). Oh, and one thing I forgot to mention...maybe big brother should be made to attend one of his sister's events occasionally so that DD doesn't feel singled out. That whole thing would kind of tick me off too if I were DD. Actually, that may be the root of it. Maybe she feels that big brother is getting more attention since even she has to attend his events and this same courtesy (as she perceives it) is not being returned to her. This may be at the root of the control issue too, as she is being dragged along to her brothers events and has no control of the situation or choice in the matter. Remember how she wasn't ready to stop rollerblading when it was time to go? She had absolutely no control over the situation. Maybe if big brother were also required to stop his recreation time to do something for HER, then her attitude would improve. Just a suggestion. Wouldn't hurt to try that and see if things begin to improve. ETA: And Karuuna, I still love your birthday keepsakes. Bought one for each of my children. :-) Such a nice thing to have. Thank you!!
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