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Archive through April 14, 2008

The TVClubHouse: Big Brother 9 ARCHIVES: Big Brother 9 - Part 10 (FINAL): General Discussion: ADAM: ARCHIVES: Archive through April 14, 2008 users admin

Author Message
Puzzled
Member

08-27-2001

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:18 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Puzzled a private message Print Post    
I posted this in the other thread, and it got deleted.

There are two different things here. Adam's grandfather was in a horrible position and probably still has nightmares.

However, that has nothing to do with Adam's use of "f'ing Jews." Even if Adam was just using "f'ing" because it is every word out of his mouth, it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Jews in concentration camps should never, ever be described as "f'ing Jews." It's WRONG. That shouldn't come out of anyone's mouth. He needs to apologise and he seriously needs an attitude adjustment in regards to his language and/or thinking.

Lindaceles
Member

08-31-2006

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:20 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lindaceles a private message Print Post    
I'm sorry too Mameblanche. I didn't bring it up to upset anyone, I was just so bothered and appalled by it that I had a hard time sleeping and I was shocked that no one had taken notice. Hugs to you!

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Thx Puzzled & Lindaceles & Amykat!

Cheekychops
Member

08-12-2005

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Cheekychops a private message Print Post    
Klaw, I agree with ya 100% - spot on observations there. They aren't looking at the big picture here - that basically all of them (apart from maybe Sheila) could beat Nat in the F2.

Know that!

Irismi
Member

02-22-2008

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Irismi a private message Print Post    
Mame,
I posted in Current feeds also and Mod warning appeared so will briefly restate what I said earlier. This generation (growing up right now) uses language very differently then we did growing up. The words we considered EXtremely offensive are everyday words to them. Perhaps their parents should have spent a little more time explaining to them the INappropriateness of using some of these words when referring to Real Life Human Beings. I Am Always uncomfortable when people use foul language, ethnic group names, etc... and combining them is a Huge No-No. My two cents will make no difference in this discussion, I just wanted to make the distinction between today's generation and when I grew up.

Carmenv
Member

04-14-2006

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Carmenv a private message Print Post    
Yeah, but wouldn't the problem actually be GETTING to the F2 with her? I think that is their concern, and it is a valid one, IMO. It is likely that if they keep Natalie in the house she will be one of the two houseguests in the finals, and neither Ryan or Adam are sure about who she would take with her, right? So I think they feel their odds are better of making it to the F2 if they keep Sharon in the house.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Thx Irismi, IMHO everyone's opinion counts, whether we agree or not.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Adam was wrong to say what he did (obviously). It was extremely insensitive and offensive to say that and I deeply empathize with anyone who was personally hurt by hearing it.

I would be even more offended if it was obvious that he was deliberately singling Jewish people out when using the word but everyone in that house throws that word around like a random sound effect, placing it in front of every word in the dictionary. As it is, we can add it to the top of the lengthening list of all the insensitive and offensive things people have said in the house.

Earthmother
Member

07-14-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Earthmother a private message Print Post    
I don't for one minute think Adam even thought about how his words might be taken out of context. I don't believe for one minute that Adam was not disgusted by what his poor grandfather was forced to do. Remember his grandfather was a prisoner himself, he had to escape. The money he receives from Geneva is part of a reparations package that Germany was forced to pay. Perhaps his grandfather didn't need the money so he uses it to go to the casino..so what? the poor man is close to 90 what else is he going to do with it.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
Thx Jimmer. Y'know I was thinking that it's too bad that the audience doesn't get to do the voting and evictions, as per BB1, cuz the hamsters would be more conscious of not offending the viewing audience.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
I disagree that his words were taken out of context. His words and cavalier attitude are evident on the video. One thing is chrystal clear, and that is that everyone seems to react to them differently. Some see nothing offensive, while some of us do.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:12 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I think it's a tremendously complicated issue; one that can be oversimplified.

My father was a child in Germany (his family forced to flee there for protection from Stalin's army, who would have killed them without a thought). He was taken from his family and placed into a school for Hitler Youth (he was blond and tall and blue-eyed). At 13, he was sent to the frontlines with a machine gun.

There were many victims of all stripes. And the damage done to them is longlasting psychological damage. Perhaps gambling is a way to forget; just like my father drank his entire life to try to forget.

And youth today do throw the f bomb around without it meaning as we think it means. It's often just a meaningless adjective to them. And laughing about horrific things is quite common in our society - as a way of being able to tolerate it. Think of all the jokes about the Challenger disaster!

I don't know what Adam's true feelings are about this- it may be too large for him to even grasp the horror of what happened in that time of history, to the Jews and to his grandfather, and to so many others.

So I'm not going to judge him or his grandfather, just as I can't judge my father for what he was forced to do.

Earthmother
Member

07-14-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Earthmother a private message Print Post    
The German government paid $60 billion in Nazi prosecutions, DM 100 billion in claims and more than 287,000 survivors received life time pensions under German indemnification laws. Hundreds of thousands of survivors received one time payments under German compensation laws. The Claims conference negotiated approximately 25 agreements with Germany. Other agreements included reparations paid by the auto industries in Germany and Austria for using Jewish slave labor. The Austrian, Swiss and Hungarian governments set up reparations funds as well. The German government also paid the state of Israel reparations to manage the influx of refugees from Europe. Part of the negotiations included an end date at which time no more Jewish reparations claims could be filed. The deadline was December 31, 2006.

Gidget
Member

07-28-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:20 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Gidget a private message Print Post    
i think ethnically offensive comments impact some more than others in part because of where they were brought up. when i first moved to nj i was appalled by things people said of each other purely based on ethnicity. interestingly for the most part all these people live well together. you have to live in a place like jersey to appreciate the level of diversity. my point is words may seem offensive to people who live in places where they dont rub elbows with all kinds of people. the reality is when you live with different people you may not like everything about them but they are real people to you. for many americans living in less diverse areas, "those people... insert anyone different from yourself" are a concept. not a reality.

adam has likely grown up in an environment where people use ethnic slang words as equal opportunity biggots. there is no real hate there.


Costacat
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Costacat a private message Print Post    
Think back to the first week when Adam threw out another word that could be considered an epithet and the hullabaloo that arose from that incident. I don't think Adam realizes when he uses a word in a derogatory fashion. I'm not excusing him, I'm just saying.

Skydiver6
Member

07-21-2006

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Skydiver6 a private message Print Post    
I thought Adam was quite bothered by the whole thing and his laughter was a nervous laughter, not a haha funny laugh. I don't think he ever said his grandfather gambles with the money, he and Ryan were just commenting on what it could be used for. I am sure the whole experience was horrible for the grandfather and something he has probably dealt with his whole life. He was also a victim. I also agree with the others that the "f'ing" was meaningless - at least to Adam and how he said it. I don't believe for a second that it was meant in a bad or hurtful way and I'm very sorry to the people that were hurt by it.

Chewpito
Member

01-04-2004

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chewpito a private message Print Post    
Im sorry you were hurt Mame...I do just want to say though that I truly dont think Adam meant it like that though... I agree that the cuss words just flow off the tounges of these folks and outside in the real world very easy...Its just a form of talk...like when you put up !!! marks that is the way many people talk... I think Adam thought it was truly messed up about what his grandfather went thru.. I think (i realy do) that Adam is a caring person and his way of talk is just that... his way of talk.
Honestly I am more bothered by Ryan's remarks on race and his views...as I do think that Ryan does have problems in this area...
I am sorry you were hurt Mame...

Ahnicka
Member

08-08-2007

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Ahnicka a private message Print Post    
What were Ryan's remarks on race?

Roxip
Member

01-29-2004

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Roxip a private message Print Post    
I haven't listened to Adam's clip and might sooner or later, but we also have to understand that this current generation of young people have not been brought up with the significance of what happened during World War II. They don't understand the importance of fighting for other people's rights, because our media is not showing a lot of reality these days. I grew up on books and movies about the realities of what went down in Nazi Germany. Now they are trying to sanitize everything because Heaven forbid that the truth is told.

That doesn't make Adam's downplaying and rudeness about the situation any better, but perhaps he's just ignorant of how truly horrible the situation was.

Puzzled
Member

08-27-2001

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Puzzled a private message Print Post    
I don't care if Adam didn't think it meant anything. I don't care if Adam is the greatest humanitarian who ever lived. What he said was wrong. Even if he were great guy, but he shouldn't have said that.

If the greatest saint who ever lived referred to the "f'ing Jews," I would give him/her what for, and be upset.}

Amykat
Member

07-24-2005

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Amykat a private message Print Post    
Gidget, speaking for myself and my mom, having just discussed this with her, I have to disagree. I don't rub elbows with all kinds of people, and "those people" are no concept. They are quite real.

There is right and there is wrong. Period. I live in a 55/45 African-American/Caucasian small city. It deeply HURTS me when I hear African-Americans use the N word-and around here, they do...ALL the time. It is SO offensive to me (I am Caucasian). But let's say I went to my local Wal-mart and was having a conversation and used that word, I probably would not make it out of the store except by way of ambulance, and that's if I was lucky. We have a very racially charged atmosphere here right now due to an Caucasian officer's shooting of a 12 yr old African-American young man last June (he had a toy gun that was painted to look real and he raised it towards the officer). I don't use ethnic slang even though I have heard it and I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who would. I'm not trying to be politically correct. It's just about being a human being. It's about not wanting to offend someone. It's why I don't like the term 'African-American'. We are ALL Americans. We just happen to have different skin color, just like some of us have different eye/hair color.

I'm also not saying Adam hates anyone-I have no idea what's in his heart. It's just such a poor choice of words.

(((((Karuuna))))) God bless you. Thank you for sharing your father's story.

My mom was telling me my dad's sister-in-law's parents, along with her and her sister, fled Poland just as they were being taken over. They made their way here to the US shortly after. I can barely remember hearing the story as a young child but I had forgotten about it.

Maybe it's just the way of the world today. I don't know...but then, we have people who actually believe the Holocaust never happened. And I'm not talking about Iran. Right here, in this country. Amazing.

Sure am glad I homeschooled my daughter.

Ok, off soap box now.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
I think folks are entitled to their own feelings about these very sensitive subjects. While I may or may not share them, everyone's experience adds something to our knowledge.

I just didn't see enough information in that particular clip to understand Adam's position. I think if we want folks to value and honor our own experiences and understanding, we probably ought to give them the same due. In other words, in order to understand how Adam really felt about this situation we'd have to put ourselves in his shoes, in his experience. Just the same as we'd like Adam to do for us.

The Hitler regime was a horrific tragedy for so many people. And even though my parents had experienced it firsthand and told me about their experiences, the true horror of it all didn't hit me until I stood in front of a gas furnace at Auswitz. That was almost 35 years ago, and I can still picture myself in that moment.

So, I'm just disinclined to think that Adam was making a statement about his feelings about Jews, or what his grandfather did. He came across to me as someone who simply couldn't quite fathom it. To rush to judgment seems to me to lose an opportunity to educate instead.

Amykat
Member

07-24-2005

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Amykat a private message Print Post    
I grew up on books and movies about the realities of what went down in Nazi Germany. Now they are trying to sanitize everything because Heaven forbid that the truth is told

Roxip, that's why I said I was glad I homeschooled my daughter. She knows what the war was about. She knows what the Holocaust was, what the Civil Rights movement was about. I'm glad I had the opportunity to teach her the truth. Funny thing, when she got to her public university, she started more discussions...much to the dismay of some of her teachers! I told her "Anna, maybe you don't need to be so vocal". She said, "Mom, they are just glossing over this stuff. They're leaving out important things!". I told her to go for it.

Beekindpleez
Member

07-18-2006

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Beekindpleez a private message Print Post    
I believe that one word changed the entire context of that story for some people.
I believe if one listened to it and deleted that one word, they might feel differently about what he said.
I believe that Adam was in no way disparaging Jews.
I believe that Adam's grandfather's receipt of money is not because of crimes he committed, but rather because of crimes committed against him.

Mameblanche
Member

08-24-2002

Monday, April 14, 2008 - 12:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mameblanche a private message Print Post    
((Kar)), I totally recognize that there were many ordinary people who were forced into untenable situations, and in their own way, they were victims of the situation and the political climate.

And I'd also like to recognise that not only were 6 million Jewish people anihilated but 6 million other innocent people who were considered to be 'undesirables', like the physically and mentally challenged, homosexuals, gypsy's, etc.

That having been said, it often surprises folks that the people dearest to my heart are the Righteous Christians. Folks who didn't have to do a damned thing, just look the other way, yet they risked their own lives and that of their loved ones, to reach out and help/hide their Jewish friends and neighbours who were in peril. I have such overwhelming gratitude towards these people.

In all honesty, I don't believe any one of us really knows what we are capable of until we are faced with these situations. But I'd like to hope that I'd have that kind of courage. Because to me, it's the greatest courage of all, to help someone else in dire need, when it not only won't benefit you in any way, but it could seriously put you in harms way. Perhaps that's why I admire those folks so much, because I just don't know if I would have that kind of courage, but, once again, we do not know what we are capable of until we are literally under the gun.