Author |
Message |
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 1:52 pm
I guess I just think the scenerio is too vague. The drowning victims...there are so many other variables that would make a difference in who I picked. Appearance would have NOTHING to do with the situation, because all sorts of other variables would be included in the decision regarding who to save. I simply can't and would not make a decision based on appearances alone. As with the police scenerio that Sunshyne posted...I see both as suspicious people and the scenerio needs more examination to determine fault, motive and what really happened. I'm the cop, not the judge or jury. So that's why I'm copping out on answering the questions directly.
|
Accalia
Member
09-07-2006
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:38 pm
Very interesting thread! In regards to Tobor's scenario... There is no way based on someone's appearance alone could I make the decision. I would have to base it more on which was the most likely to make it back to shore with me. I think I'd have to go on how they were "dealing," for lack of a better word, with their present condition, such as were they panicking to a point that we end up both drowning.
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:51 pm
in my scenario an instant decision is often made about whom started it based on a person's training and experience. eric's shifty eyes and "Or whatever"s thrown into his explanation would make me think he started it and was just lying LOL
|
Nyheat
Member
08-09-2006
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 2:59 pm
If I were the lifeguard, I would save Eric. But I'm not sure what it really has to do with Big Brother.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:01 pm
Honestly, I don't see what the scenario has to do with the initial premise - that we are qualified to judge. The proposed scenario is about making a decision in an emergency situation, and to me, doesn't seem to relate to making a judgment about character. Are we supposed to decide who to save based on their character? We have no information about their character. So I would argue that this decision is very different than 'judging'. Nor do I see what the theoretical situation has in common with 'judging' the character of houseguests in BB. One is an emergency situation, where you presumably must make a quick decision about whom to save, while taking your own safety into account. The other is certainly a no-stress, tv show that one watches for relaxation or entertainment, presumably in the safety of one's own home. Perhaps I am just pathetically obtuse, but I don't get the comparison. 
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:08 pm
I think that the examples were just used to get us to think about whether we are judging based on LOOKS or predetermined ideas of Worth. *****
|
Shopstomuch
Member
07-09-2007
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:10 pm
LMAO... nope, I am on that "don't get the comparison couch" with you Karuuna. I don't think whether I judge or like or dislike or anything else a person on one of these shoes actually has some huge major factor in their lives whereas me saving someone from drowning would.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:31 pm
Sun, I'm sorry, but I don't see it. It seems like the premise is jumping all over the place. From whether we are "qualified" to judge (as a jury is) to whether we have to make a life or death call (which doesn't seem like 'judgment', but rather a logical and probably flawed decision process). And somehow this is supposed to relate to our opinions on whom we like and why? It's not even apples and oranges, more like apples and telephones. Not the same thing. Judging someone, in the way the term is most commonly used in this country, seems quite different to me than making life or death decisions under duress, and forming opinions about how people interact on a tv show. But then again, it could just be Shopstomuch and me that don't get it. 
|
Bicbicz911
Member
08-20-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:41 pm
Count me in too, Karuuna. This topic took a turn that confused the heck outta me.
|
Shopstomuch
Member
07-09-2007
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 3:41 pm
Well, we can just have a party on the "don't get it couch." I agree... apples and steak at this point. Someone is dying and your adrenaline kicks in, the training you have or may have had would hopefully come into place, and other emotional factors take control also. If they are in the water drowning, have you even had a chance to assess that one has tat's and the other doesn't? I mean... Eric has nip rings which I find gross, but that doesn't mean I don't save him either. They are in the water looking like drowning rats. Sorry, but the comparison is just not there for me. When I am sitting on my couch being a lump of lard watching these ppl and saying "this or that person is a creep" there is none of the angst of the actual fight/flight emotion and everything going on. It's just .... this person is a creep. Don't you judge your co-workers, people in a shopping mall, people at a resteraunt? I mean... same thing, they are there and you look but has nothing to do w/ saving them. I love to people watch... I find it somewhat amusing to just sit in the mall and watch how people walk, talk, carry themselves etc. However, when someone voluntarily puts themselves on an ENTERTAINMENT show for me to watch... yep, I get to judge them with the behavior they put out there for me to see.
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:12 pm
BTW- I never said anything about "character." But I was talking about feeling QUALIFIED or not. My position is clearly stated. How many people DO NOT feel qualified? And if not, what would make you qualified?
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:19 pm
Judgment - "An opinion formed by judging something." (Key word OPINION.) Opinion - "A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof of certainty." Judgment - "The cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions." Judgment - "The mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations." Judgment - "The capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw conclusions."
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:22 pm
A city boy sees a picture of a brown cow in a field. The boy assumes that all cows are brown. The boy is shown various pictures of a cow in a field, but now they are different colors. The boy assumes that all cows come in various colors and are lonely.
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:28 pm
Sun hit it very well with this: "I think that the examples were just used to get us to think about whether we are judging based on LOOKS or predetermined ideas of Worth." Yes. It is a self-examination process prompted by the very act of this communal experience. I just don't think that people should beat themselves up by saying, "Who am I to judge?"
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 5:37 pm
with the lifeguard situation- I do observe that more than one person maintained a concern for their own life and would chose the person that they would have the BEST CHANCE of surviving with. By extension... if you walked into a burning building as a fireman and you were faced with a 150 pound man and a 400 pound man you would just grab up the 150 pound man? Believe it or not, when faced with 50 plus decisions on flash cards with the same scenario a pattern emerges. Imagine if you had to make 50 decisions similar to the ones described... the task would be to pick the one you would save. If you then had to rationalize WHY you made your choice after the fact... that is to say EXPLAIN your quick thought process... I'm sure with enough self-examination you would find a reason for every one. Next year, take a look at the pictures of each and every houseguest and jot down your opinion of what you think they are like based on their LOOKS. Then at the end of the season go back and take a look at your notes. You will be shocked at your percentage of correct assumptions. It is an interesting little test. Give it a try. But make sure you write them down somewhere. Memory has a way of "adapting."
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 6:06 pm
I have to say that one of my first instincts is to consider the surrounding area and whether it is safe or not for me to try to help. This all came from CPR, CNA work and working with the developmentally disabled. If it's not safe for me to help, I should stay away, otherwise I'm just making a bigger problem for others. Tubor's different descriptions of the word "judgement" were great. I also think if you look at all of them...Opinion is there, but fact isn't. I also thing some people are much better at deductive reasoning than others. Reasoning skills can be learned. Juries are formed because no ONE opinion is fact. Different people, from different backgrounds form the jury and together make a judgement that they all can agree to, fitting in with the lines of the law. You can especially see where Motive comes into place in making judgements, in the case of homicide. Was it accidental? a crime of passion? a Capitol crime? Different punishments go with the different motive/reason for the death. I think the problem lies in the words fact and opinion.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 6:48 pm
quote:I just don't think that people should beat themselves up by saying, "Who am I to judge?"
Why do you assume that someone who thinks this way is beating themselves up? Perhaps there is another way of judging such a philosophy which is less negative. 
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:10 pm
I clearly support and encourage those who do not feel they are qualified to judge. The title of the thread is, "Judges Are We All." My point is that we are all equally qualified to judge anything we see fit. Not one of us is any more or less qualified than the other. I consider that a very positive and empowering message. Nothing negative about it. Due to the confusion about the main point, I have tried to re-phrase and re-frame the core statement. To disagree with me you would have to say, "None of us are qualified to judge."
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:21 pm
When I ask myself, "Who am I to judge..." I feel more peace of mind than I would if I picked a part another person's character. I've seen many people walk around and try to point blame or assign guilt to situations involving other people. I personally think it's silly for them to get worked up over something that just IS. (Shit happens) I'm happy to be free of the responsibility of judging others. It's not my job and it would be a huge burden. I sometimes feel it's important that I express my opinion. But most of the time I just lurk to keep up with the house...and watch the posters at the BBFan Club. I've sorta learned that the more I and complain about another person, the more negative and down I feel. When I quit judging and complaining, I start feeling happier. (Learned this from bashing husbands with friends. We made a pact to not talk about it every time we talked. When we decided to quit doing it, we began noticing all the nice things about our hubbies...and we felt better) We changed our focus. I don't want to focus on other people's "my bad's"...I have plenty of my own. I rambled....sorry. I may form my own opinions about them. It's not the norm for me...to make negative judgements about others. I don't judge people good or bad. AGHHH---I'm using the words opinion and "making judgements" differently. I form opinions...grrr...I don't make judgements. Huh??? I'm all confused....someone please, tell me what I mean.
|
Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:26 pm
When you notice all the nice things and you form an opinion based on that, you are judging based on the good things. You are observing certain actions and reacting to it. The only way to not judge is to not react. No notice. Not feel anything at all. And is that human nature?
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:31 pm
I agree, Kearie. I don't feel it's demeaning or being harsh to myself to say "who am I to judge"?. It is actually that attitude that I find empowering. I find nothing empowering about judging others. I disagree with the statement that "we are all equally qualified to judge anything we see fit. Not one of us is any more or less qualified than the other." I also disagree that the only possible disagreement with the original premise is to say none of us are qualified to judge. My argument is that there is no point to judging, nothing healthy is gained from it. That's different from whether one is "qualified" to do so or not. And that's very different than making decisions about whether you can trust someone or not, or whether you want to spend time with them or not. To me, those are decisions, not judgments. Judging continues to carry a negative connotation in our society, and I think that's for good reason.
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:38 pm
kearie said I also think if you look at all of them...Opinion is there, but fact isn't. Tobor says Opinion - "A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof of certainty." proof of certainty = fact. At least in my world. Ane therein lays the basis for many of the angry responses i get. If I about talking about something is real, solid, unalterable that happened on feeds. It is fact, not my opinion. That is why I did the Person A shoving Person B scenario. That is an example of fact. All the other theories around why and when and who else could be involved are opinions.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:45 pm
When you notice all the nice things and you form an opinion based on that, you are judging based on the good things. What am I judging or forming an opinion about? I notice behavior change in both of us...over time. I married the guy because he had good character...that never changed. I guess I come to the conclusion things are getting better. But I would never think of that as something I judged. But...I've hit that duh moment and I think yer being a brat Tubor. Which interprets into...I see what your saying and yer right...but you ran me in circles. I certainly don't think forming opinions as the same as judging. Very different connotation to me.
|
Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:48 pm
"A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof of certainty." copied from Sunshynes post with different words hilighted.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:49 pm
So we are making a distinction between a decision and a judgement?
|