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Cricket
Member
08-05-2002
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 3:28 pm
Very interesting thread as usual, Tobor. First impressions based on subjective experience is something we cannot escape. I concur. Yes, we are all allowed to judge and I agree that what we are seeing are the real personalities of these people. Zach said some quirky things at the beginning of the show that hasn't allowed me to root for him thus far. Some of the contestants make me feel that being around them would be toxic. Some, I think I'd enjoy being around very much. While they are all stuck in a closed environment, and it's supposedly a game, I guess I expect others to act in a civil manner and when they don't, I judge them. Being civil doesn't mean you can't play the game in all it's glory.
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Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 3:42 pm
People seem to think that the word "judge" is a negative word. You can judge things in a positive way as well as a negative way. I also think that "finding a certain behavior abhorrent" is judging the behavior. And by extension, the behavior comes from SOMETHING, and hence the source is judged. Behavior does not exist on its own. It comes FROM something. Where it comes from is the SOURCE. The behavior and the source of the behavior are linked.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 4:23 pm
I have only been on one jury and I was an alternate.The case was about a man arrested for drunk driving. His lawyer said "If we find him guilty he may lose his license." One member walking into the jury room said what I thought "He was driving drunk. He is guilty." In a "court of law" it should not matter why he drove drunk, he was guilty. In a "court of life" we are able to consider what circumstances may have been involved to contribute to a certain behavior. My judgement has been changed after hearing more facts. I have judged someone's actions as bad and felt there was no excuse for such action. When I got more information, my perspective changed. The person's action was still wrong but there was a reason. We are human beings and are actions are a result of who we have made ourselves to be.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 4:52 pm
Dogdoc, very nicely put. Tobor, I agree with you right up to the point of saying that by extension we are judging the source. While I am often tempted to do so, when I am at my best self, I do not judge the source. Judgment implies right or wrong, good or bad. Behavior can be so by societal standards; but I do not believe the source of the behavior, the human being, is. Do I find some of Dick's or Eric's behavior abhorrent? Sure. Do I find them abhorrent? Absolutely not. As Dogdoc so eloquently put it, when we know more, we may change our minds. A man steals food. We adjudicate him harshly. We find out he stole it for his child. We are less harsh. We find out he is a Vietnam vet and has not been able to hold down a job because of his PTSD. We judge him less harshly. We find out that he cannot get treatment for his PTSD because the military won't provide it. Our judgments continue to change as we know more facts. That's why I think it folly to judge a person. We truly do not know what motivates them; and when we do judge them, we usually do so from our own biased (and far from factual) perspective.
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Jeanne
Member
07-15-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 4:55 pm
Karuuna ... what an absolutely marvelous post. Thank you!
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Tobor7
Member
07-19-2002
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 5:01 pm
Karu- So you think you are QUALIFIED to judge, but you try not to? I think that when you really consider it, you judge a lot more on an everyday basis than you think. I disagree with you that judgment implies right and wrong. It is neither right nor wrong. It is what it is. I will post a very good example later on when I have time.
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Spygirl
Board Administrator
04-23-2001
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 6:57 pm
One of the things we talk a lot about in my line of work is context - a catch phrase we use is "all behavior makes sense in context". That phrase describes what you are writing about, Karuuna. Behavior does not tell us much about people, but finding out "more information" tells us a lot more. People may do some really strange - and many times destructive and hurtful things - but exploring the context for those behaviors helps us to make sense of their decision(s). It does not justify them, but it does help us see how they can happen. Each season, Big Brother serves as a clear reminder of that principle. I simply cannot personally know what it is like to be in that house, but I can certainly figure out that after watching people do some absolutely unbelievable things for 8 seasons, it must tremendously emotionally difficult. The houseguests change, but the drama...the comments...the crazy things they do don't change. The one constant? The game.
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Spygirl
Board Administrator
04-23-2001
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 6:59 pm
And Tobor, "judge" is socially constructed to be negative. You can implore that folks not take it as such, but the reality is that the word is negatively connoted. That's an uphill battle I wish you luck in fighting. 
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:14 pm
Thanks, Jeanne! Tobor, I have re-read my post, and I don't see where I said I was qualified to judge anything. In fact, I don't think that at all. If anything, I am wildly unqualified to judge, given my biases, personal experiences, and limited knowledge of anyone's motivation. In your initial post, you likened judging the houseguests to being on a jury. As Dogdoc pointed out, being on a jury is highly regulated. You are educated in the laws that are relevant; you are screened from potentially injurious information, you are instructed in how to perform your duties. And you (theoretically) are presented with information from both sides of the matter in a fair way. It's not at all comparable to hearing bits and pieces, much of it hearsay, much of slanted (as in how the TV shows portrays the houseguests), much of it screened from view (vortex, vortex, vortex, and perhaps inattentive camera workers), as we have with Big Brother. Do I judge? Of course. I'm human. I'm working on it. The word "judge" has become a highly provocative word in our society, and I think rightly so. But even then it's meaning is clear - a judge is someone who determines guilt or innocence. The simplest meaning is to "form an opinion", and that is applicable to what I do when I watch BB. Altho admittedly, when I do so, I know darn well I'm working with very limited information, and again, I am forming that opinion about particular acts, not the person performing the act. So perhaps your first task is to define "judge" clearly, in the way you are using it? If you mean "form an opinion", that's one thing, and yes, we can all form opinions, in fact we do all day long. But your example (jury duty) implied the more serious use of the word - to determine guilt or innocence. I'm not about to take on that task, and am highly (and wildly) unqualified to do so in regards to the Houseguests' characters.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:30 pm
part of a job of counsellor involves judging if a person is telling the truth or just playing mental games with them therefore skirting a larger issue. Yeah, karuuna has the training to judge behaviour in my opinion. I love kearie's Post but wish to add something very important that was Missed. I'm sure it wasnt intentional. No drawing is wrong, but the are all different. They all show the "facts" from their point of view, but each view is different. no Each view is not different. They all saw a TRUCK! BB fans this year are looking at the same vehicle and some see Cars, some see trucks, some see something like kinda looks like car, but maybe it is a truck outside of the game. my point is not sarcasm but what I truly see. I've been online during a House occurrence and am surprised at things a few individuals will say in the discussion area. It is like they completely never registered half of a conversation and happened to turn away as a Look happened. Sometimes people see cars instead of trucks because they like cars. not sure if I'm making sense for the average person. I love dissecting ideas and thoughts so this is what I consider fun.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:42 pm
hey, Spy! I agree, "judge" has a very negative connotation, regardless of the straight dictionary meaning. That's yet another good reason to stay away from it. Even the dictionary meanings tend toward the negative side. Sunshyne, thanks, but I prefer to call them "educated guesses" not judgments, since that's really what I am doing if I am trying to discern if someone is being honest with me. And even then, honesty is somewhat relative. From their world view (or as Spy put it "context") they may think they are being quite honest. From my point of view, I may think they are even misleading themselves. Sometimes they may be playing games. Again, I prefer to see it as not having the confidence or self-assuredness, or even the skills to be more forthright. Framing how we talk about these things really has an effect on our attitudes about them. So, here "playing games" has a negative connotation. While "lacking the skill to be forthright" is a less (dare I say it) judgmental way of viewing a client. Of course, we have to be willing to be open to the idea that it is our view or opinion that is the one that is in error. We all tend to think we are the 'most right' when remembering or interpreting a conversation. Me also. 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:47 pm
It certainly was NOT an over-site. I said what I meant. Everyone saw the truck, but everyone saw the same truck from a different angle. Some drew more of the front view, some more the back view, some from from the center. Each drawing was of the same truck, but the view was different. Perspective was different depending on where you sat to draw. Everyone has a different perspective, especially when judging other people. We all have different past experiences that effect how we judge others. We can't judge others and claim to know fact, simply because we can't judge their mind, their heart, their motives. Only the individual can give you most factual information about himself. And then again, most people don't understand themselves enough to know their own motivations for their behavior. I disagree Sun. I did say what I meant.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:49 pm
One of my favorite movies is "Guarding Tess" with Nicholas Cage and Shirley McClain. I watched it with my niece. She was seeing it for the first time. I had watched it a couple times. My niece kept saying "What a horrible lady." I knew better. When Tess got kidnapped my niece refused to watch the ending unless I reassured her that Tess lived. I think the Guarding Tess plot was an excellent mixture of humor, human nature and personal struggle. Who didn't cheer when the big shots got kicked off the helicopter!
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Beckie03
Member
07-05-2007
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:52 pm
I defintely believe we can and are allowed to judge. They go on that show knowing that they will be judged. On the other hand, I also think we judge very harshly in our judgments, myself included. These people have limited time (doesn't seem like it, but they do) to make really good formal decisions. They don't have any outside information like we do to base their actions on. I think we can judge, but I think we judge very harshly at some stupid mistakes...
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Shopstomuch
Member
07-09-2007
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 7:56 pm
Of course I am going to judge them... they are put on my TV for my entertainment or dislike or any other human emotion I may want to attribute to them. I judge ppl on Survivor, Amazing Race, etc etc etc.... I judge talk show hosts. These ppl all put their own selves out on the tv in public and I judge their actions, their opinions, and their words.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:03 pm
i never said you didnt say what you meant. i said that something was missed. sorry for upsetting you but my post is clear. In your description all people drew a truck regardless of their view. IN bb analogy, not everyone is even SEEING a truck let alone drawing it (or posting about it)
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Shopstomuch
Member
07-09-2007
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:04 pm
I understood you Kearie. ;)
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:07 pm
This one statement basically refutes my whole post. "no Each view is not different. They all saw a TRUCK!" I didn't miss including that because I do not agree with that. My whole post explains why I disagree. THX Stops. I was trying to be clear.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:14 pm
Trying to explain why we as viewers can view the same feeds...and come up with different conclusions about the HG's. The live feeds are not 24/7. No one person catches everything...add that to the fact that sometimes all four feeds are on two people...We viewers can not claim we know the facts about events in the house. NO One knows all the facts. We all see things from different perspectives. We all form different OPINIONS. We just can't claim to know the FACTS more than another person/poster. We all have different views on what is offensive. We all have different lines to be crossed. When it comes to judging HG's on BB, all we have is our OWN perspective...which is neither right nor wrong. It just is.
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Rubyroo77
Member
08-13-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:39 pm
I like what Sunshyne said-(I think it was Sun) that we will base our opinion on what we see in the house based on the kind of upbringing we had. I always try in my posts to say that I don't hate the person- because I don't hate anybody. Instead I hate the behavior of that person. My problem this year has been the intense hatred that these houseguests have displayed. The backstabbing has been severe..as well as the in your face agression. I do think that how you were raised does affect this..only I am opposite to what Sun said. I grew up in a home with a violent father. He actually made every neighbor we had hate him. He chased one of them with a chainsaw! So for me..in my household now..it is peaceful and happy (that's where I differ). That is why I have such a problem especially with Dick in the house. Being called some of those names by my father..(someone who should have treasured his little girls) really hit home, and I can't understand how someone could talk that way to another and not feel some dread or a bothered conscience..and apologize- and mean it- so as not to repeat it! Yes I have seen his soft side-which is very nice..but what he said to Jen and others- which was never deserved causes me to make a judgement call..I feel if there is one place we can (bibically) judge it is our association. I choose not to associate with dick. That's why I turn off or change the feeds when he is on now. When it comes to judging HG's on BB, all we have is our OWN perspective...which is neither right nor wrong. It just is. Kearie..I agree with that statement..I think that is what I was trying to say. 
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 8:57 pm
My back ground also shows part of why my view is different. My father sexually abused my sister...So Eric's comments are not excusable to me. I had an ex call me the c-word once. My thot...what a jerk. My reaction to guys who have been verbally threatening to me... "Go ahead. Hit me, if it will make you feel like a man." (I've never been hit in this type of situation) I have also been punched in the face...two brothers were punching and I hated it, so I decided if I stepped between them, they would stop. I stepped in. I got punched. They quit fighting. Yes, it was worth it. Dick's behavior doesn't bother me so much.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:00 pm
an example. A HG gets into an argument with another HG. ten posters lined up posting their "facts". all ten do not see the same event with different perspectives. 7 posters see the event as an argument and see with slightly different perspectives but they all heard the same words and saw the same Swinging arms and clenched fists. 2 posters see the event not as an argument, but as a mild disagreement and the swinging arms were because a mosquito was buzzing around. The clenched fists werent noticed and these two posters say it didnt occur. 1 poster watched the interaction and said that there was no argument, no disagreement at all. they were just joking around and the swinging arms/ clenched fists were part of the goofing off. same event on Feeds, Ten posters all lined up watching same feed. same event, different opinions based on whether a person choses to interpret actions with their own biases OR whether they are trying to be unbiased and just 'say what they see'. in my opinion, there is a right and a wrong perspective in many cases. It is all about whether a person wishes to choose to ignore some of the evidence...and so I bring it back down to a Jury-type of thinking.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:00 pm
i know what you mean Ruby, I think quite a few of us have some experience with men who border on outofcontrol...therefore we find it uncomfortable when Dick has acted out in the House.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:06 pm
I think those "Swinging arms and clenched fists" posters need to find other things to do with their lives rather than try to argue OPINIONS about other people. There simply will never be a right or wrong about interpreting anothers behaviors. Some things aren't worth swinging your arms over. With that, I begrudgingly agree to disagree.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Monday, September 03, 2007 - 9:11 pm
there is a big difference between opinion and Facts. Facts can be interpreted using a person's opinion and biases, but that doesnt change a fact. person A shoves person B backwards. Is it a shove, is it a push, did person B actually stumble? but how could they stumble backwards unless pushed? Fact- Person A made contact with person B. Result was a backwards movement. Line up ten posters....I still swear that at least one will say that Contact was not made. This is not about you or your post. nothing personal. You started an interesting focus of discussion. No reason we shouldnt explore it fully.
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