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Archive through September 04, 2007

The TVClubHouse: Big Brother 8 ARCHIVES: Big Brother 8 - Part 9: Judges Are We All.: Archive through September 04, 2007 users admin

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Dogdoc
Member

09-29-2001

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:50 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dogdoc a private message Print Post    
I am pondering the scenario of the boy and the pictures of cows. I am not sure that he would assume all cows are brown if he only saw a picture of one. If he knows that other animals come in different colors he may saw "I see a brown cow." I think is also a leap to think the boy would assume "The cow is lonely" verses "The cow is alone."

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:51 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Kar...thanks for explaining me to myself. I understood your post better. LOL

Nyheat
Member

08-09-2006

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nyheat a private message Print Post    
Why do I feel like I need a bong hit for this conversation?

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Jim, I do; altho I understand that some people don't.

I choose to use them differently because "judging" does have a negative connotation in our society. And even when I read the dictionary definitions, they lean to the negative.

Decision making has no such negative connotation. Therefore I find using that word doesn't come with baggage; and I am more clear about what I am conveying.

To decide who to save in the drowning scenario, is just a decision based on my chances of success (in my case). To "judge" who to save may imply to some people that I thought one person was more worthy of saving. That's just the way some people will hear it.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
LOL, Kearie!

Nyheat, if I still smoked, it might help!

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 7:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
I would see the "cow" example to show reasoning ...rather than an example of judging.

I think the terminology is confusing me.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Okay because that was confusing me. After all, we make decisions about people and everything else in our lives all of the time. We are continually making choices.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:03 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
I posted a bunch of dictionary definitions of the word JUDGMENT. None of them seemed to be pejorative. I didn't even have to look down the list to find one that fit my needs. I simply took the top ones.

To keep this factual, could you please post 5 or 6 dictionary definitions of the word that give a pejorative slant to the word?

Thanks.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
GRRRRRR

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:07 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
As far as relating this thread to BB, it relates to the common experience we are all having here while watching the show. People throw the word around and I thought it was worthy of an in-depth look from many sides.

At times, it is necessary (to make a point) to divorce the point from the emotional issue and place it in neutral territory. Once there, it is easier to see. Once seen, it can then be applied back to the specific situation... and within context... specifically, Big Brother and the communal viewing experience.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Kearie, I agree. The terminology is confusing.

Of course, to my simple mind, all the more reason not to "judge", since we can't even have a simple conversation about it and find clarity. We're talking about deciding, reasoning, assuming, making choices, forming opinions, observing, reacting, ascertaining, finding fault - it's no wonder we're confused!

Judging (IMO) should be based on fact. But psychological research shows that our opinions are based very loosely on fact, if at all, and are generally based on our own personal experiences and biases. More often than not, we 'judge' in line with what we already think, that's all about being biased, and nothing about fact.

That's why judges and juries *are* qualified to judge, because it is a highly regulated system that does everything to maximize fact and minimize bias. Our casual opinions about people are not set in such a system at all.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Thank you very much for this learning adventure Tubor.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Main Entry: 1judge
Pronunciation: 'j&j
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): judged; judg·ing
Etymology: Middle English juggen, from Anglo-French juger, from Latin judicare, from judic-, judex judge, from jus right, law + dicere to decide, say -- more at JUST, DICTION
transitive verb
1 : to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
2 : to sit in judgment on : TRY
3 : to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation
4 : GOVERN, RULE -- used of a Hebrew tribal leader
5 : to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about <shouldn't judge him because of his accent>
6 : to hold as an opinion : GUESS, THINK <I judge she knew what she was doing>

-------------------------------------------------

So definition number five in this set specifically mentions the negativity aspect (though #2 hints at it). Does the negativity come from the idea of putting someone on trial or from the Bible?

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Would number 6 also be called assume?

ETA--- No where in the definiton judgement does it claim to be a fact.

Dogdoc
Member

09-29-2001

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Dogdoc a private message Print Post    
If we go to a dog show we will find judges. The judges have to evaluate how each dog represents the standards for its breed. They judge the good points and the bad points. They judge how the dog performs. There is no other way to pick a winner. Are the judges ever biased? Does bias factor in on which dog they like best. I would say yes.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
You have been fun and thought-provoking Kearie. Thanks for that. But stick around, there is much more to come.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
Thanks Jimmer. You listed 6. One was negative, the rest not.

In fact #6 is my common usage.

It is interesting that the example usage of 5 is in the corrective sense. One person TELLING another what he should or should not think. (The "YOU" is not stated but clearly implied.)

#6 is from the personal perspective. Hence the use of the word "I".

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
Dogdoc you are right on. I think we can all agree that bias is infused in all of it. How could it not be.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
Kar, you said, "I disagree with the statement that "we are all equally qualified to judge anything we see fit. Not one of us is any more or less qualified than the other."

Just to be clear, is it safe to say that since you disagree with it you think that NONE OF US are qualified to judge anything we see fit? ...or do you feel that some of us are more qualified than others?

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
Kar, you said, "My argument is that there is no point to judging, nothing healthy is gained from it."

That is far different from saying, "Who am I to judge." One is a question and the other is a statement. I was answering the question that I have seen posted so many times.

I wonder how many people would have anything to say if they started out each post with saying, "there is no point to judging, nothing healthy is gained from it."

I guess it would have to be followed with, "that being said..." or "but..." LOL

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tobor7 a private message Print Post    
This was fun tonight.

Gotta go to bed.

Thanks for working my brain.

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 8:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    
Let me try this a different way.

When someone says "who am I to judge" which seemed to be the original focus of this thread, it does not seem equivalent to me to saying "who am I to form an opinion". or "who am I to make a decision". In fact, I have rarely heard anyone say those phrases, but I hear people say "who am I to judge" all the time.

When someone says "who am I to judge" it seems to me they are implying the definition of number 2 (to sit in judgment, to try; which is the act of determining guilt or innocence, and is negative IMO, unless you think being on trial is a positive thing!) or perhaps 5, to evaluate, esp in a negative way.

Believe me, I think we have a board full of people who are not at all ashamed to have opinions. :-) In fact, that's most of what we do all day long, post our opinions.

So, I think it's quite reasonable to posit that when someone says "who am I to judge" it is not at all said with the meaning of number 6. I think what they are saying is who am I to assume some position of moral superiority to someone else, and determine their guilt or innocence.

I also think that's why there has been some vehement opposition to the idea that we are all qualified to judge others in some way. I don't think anyone would have argued with the original premise of this thread if it had said "Opinion-makers are We all." Or "We are the Deciders (LOL)."

And therein lies the semantic difficulty of the issue. We simply see the word judge as having a very different meaning. Ultimately this is merely a thread about semantics, I think. Does the word "judgment" mean "opinion" or something else? If you see it the same, of course we all make judgments. If you see it differently, than some of us are going to say, with gusto "who am I to judge?!"

Karuuna
Board Administrator

08-31-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Karuuna a private message Print Post    

quote:

Just to be clear, is it safe to say that since you disagree with it you think that NONE OF US are qualified to judge anything we see fit? ...or do you feel that some of us are more qualified than others?




I would disagree with the idea that all of us are qualified to judge anything that we see fit.

As in Dogdoc's example of a dog show, I am hardly qualified to judge a dog show. I may have an opinion about what dog I like the best, but that does not qualify me to be a judge.

But then we're back to semantics, eh?

I'm off until late tomorrow. I'll be judging whether my body is still fit enough to hike 7 miles up the side of the mountain. Wish me good judgment!

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Another thing we tend to do a lot is extrapolate. Without extrapolation, our lives would be difficult and it would be much harder to make decisions.

For example, we see a car approaching a red light. We know that most cars in our experience stop at red lights. We extrapolate that this car will stop as well and proceed through the green light.

However, we also tend to sometimes extrapolate on fairly minimal evidence. I'll offer as an example, visiting some friends in Nova Scotia. Generally speaking, the Nova Scotia lifestyle is known to be a bit slower paced. So we went to our friend's house in early afternoon. My friend shows up at about 3:30 and suggests that we and his kids go for a swim at the beach and so on. My wife and I were saying to each other that this is the way to live!!! That was until our friend informed us that this was the first time he had got out of the office before 7:00 in the last month.

We had extrapolated and reached the wrong conclusion on fairly minimal evidence.

We are continually offering opinions on the houseguests and extrapolating their behavior in the house and projecting that may be the way they act in their day to day lives. Of course, we have observed them over an extended period so we have more than minimal evidence but at the same time we are observing them under severely artificial conditions.

I think that most people would agree that extrapolation is a necessary part of most decision making. It would make living very difficult if we always waited until we were absolutely positive about something before making a decision.

However, as has been pointed out in this thread, making a decision is different than making a judgement. Deciding to avoid an encounter with an angry person in another vehicle is probably a sound decision based on extrapolating that something bad may happen if you confront him. Extrapolating that further to make an overall judgement about his character based on that one brief set of evidence is probably unfounded but many people make those sorts of judgements every day as well.

Kearie
Member

07-21-2005

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 - 9:16 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kearie a private message Print Post    
Best of judgement to you Kar.

The Decider was great. <giggles>