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Archive through September 14, 2007

The TVClubHouse: Big Brother 8 ARCHIVES: Big Brother 8 - Part 10: Is there really such a thing as "playing the game the best?": Archive through September 14, 2007 users admin

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Northwestblonde
Member

09-01-2005

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 11:19 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Northwestblonde a private message Print Post    
Just thinking out loud on this one.

I've thought about this a lot for not just this show but Survivor, et al and hear it said repeatedly about "so and so played the best game" and I can't help but think how much luck and personality comes into play on so many of these shows.

You can play with integrity or without integrity, skill or lack of skill, nice or underhanded and it seems odds are about even you may get to the finals based upon the luck of your team, the luck of a guess, and the personality in how you stand out in the game (or the threat you may pose to other players). It just seems to me you can be the smartest, most agile, nicest, skillful person in the game and still lose frequently because you may be viewed as a threat.

How often does someone end up taking an unlikable person to the finals based on the idea they know they can beat them? Just as an example, Dani has won 5 competitions, but if she didn't have her dad's help, she would have been evicted awhile ago. There are those that believe she's played one of the best games, but personally I disagree. I really believe playing the best game doesn't always mean you end up winning the game IMHO.

Onlyhuman
Member

08-04-2001

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Onlyhuman a private message Print Post    
Northwestblonde, that is a very well thought out argument.

The mythology of "the best player" was created as a psychological construct to help viewers and players deal with the fact that unlikeable people often win the game and to justify players who vote against the "nice" person because that person beat them.

In a game with no apparent rules EXCEPT survival, making the F2 means you played the game well. All attempts at that point to determine "the best player" are purely subjective and will be determined on a personal basis.

Tvjunkie64
Member

09-04-2007

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tvjunkie64 a private message Print Post    
I encompass best player to be someone who handles themself with respect and dignity and who does their best.

We hear all the time about players THROWING competitions. If each person truly competed each HOH and POV, I doubt Dani would have won as many. Just my views. I don't see her as this huge threat. As witnessed last night, she lost the endurance - she may have won the last time, but that was because deals were made.

To me, the best person isn't who wins the comps, etc. I think of Kaysar as a "best player". HE is what I would like to see more of in future BB seasons.

Hobbs
Member

08-05-2002

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Hobbs a private message Print Post    
I think there a strategies that HG's try and can be considered "game play". Zach was under the radar and didn't try hard until necessary. Dick was an a$$ to disrupt players games and to hopefully get taken to the final 2. Dani was a great competitor.

Also there is the strategy of timing when you throw an alliance under the bus and go your own way. Will and Boogie had a great strategy of telling everyone else what to do.

Also there is the strategy of being needed. Good cook, fire starter, etc.

Finally there is a lot of luck needed.

eta: The problem is going into the game you don't know how your strategy will work with the other players strategies. That's what makes it all so much fun to watch.

Northwestblonde
Member

09-01-2005

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Northwestblonde a private message Print Post    
I agree with that analogy Tv...IMO Kaysar would be in "best player" category whereas Dr. Will would not, despite all of what he and other players have said to the contrary. Another example and this is someone who actually won the game is Yul from Survivor.

Lucymac
Member

07-06-2005

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 12:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lucymac a private message Print Post    
I think there are a lot of factors that go into what makes the best player. I agree that just winning the most competitions isn't necessarily the only factor. Part of the game is getting the jury to vote for you in the end. I think you have to earn the respect of those that are on the jury besides winning the competitions and make them respect your game play enough that they will vote for you even if it meant you were the one that got them eliminated. It doesn't mean you have to be the best liked but it doesn't necessarily help to be the most disliked either. I think it takes a lot of finesse to be the best and in some ways almost the type of player that can eliminate somebody from the game and have the person realize it really was just game and not personal. It doesn't necessarily mean those at the end are the best either, as luck definitely factors into it.

Merrysea
Member

08-13-2004

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Merrysea a private message Print Post    

quote:

Just as an example, Dani has won 5 competitions, but if she didn't have her dad's help, she would have been evicted awhile ago.




Actually, Daniele won 7 competitions (5 vetos and 2 HOHs). If she didn't have her dad in the house, she would probably have had a stronger alliance with some of the others, because for a long time, she was trying to stay away from her dad. We'll never know, but perhaps she and Nick might not have spent so much time in bed if she felt free to walk around the house and be herself without running into her father.

Tvjunkie64
Member

09-04-2007

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:32 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tvjunkie64 a private message Print Post    
Yul is another great example!

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:50 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
It all depends on how you look at it.

From a purely selfish perspective as a fan, the person who played the game the best was the one that provided me with the most entertainment and the one that I enjoyed watching the most. Also, I don't like mean people so I prefer nice players or players that aren't mean in a personal way. For example, I don't mind if someone deceives another player as part of the game but personal nastiness toward another player is not a good thing.

In viewing this from a juror's perspective, I think that winning most games invariably involves some measure of luck. For skill based games (e.g. golf, chess, baseball, etc.) the impact that luck has on the outcome is inversely proportionate to the skill and determination of the player. The more skilled and determined the player, the less that luck is a factor in the outcome.

So the player that gets to the end of BB with the most skill and determination and the least luck involved is IMO the best player. A great example of this is Dr. Will vs. Cowboy. Neither won competitions. Both got to the final two but Dr. Will got there through his skill as a manipulative player, whereas Cowboy almost completely relied on luck.

Northwestblonde
Member

09-01-2005

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:58 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Northwestblonde a private message Print Post    
Have to agree with all those points too Jimmer :-)

Allietex
Member

08-16-2002

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 1:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Allietex a private message Print Post    
There has been a lot of discussion today of where Zach falls in the "good player" category. Zach was never my favorite player. I have critized him for his lack of sociability and his "hanging" on D/D.

I would like to throw out that Zach is one of those players that we watch every year and say there is more to them than meets the eye. That when it counts they will step up and make it count.

Invariably we are disappointed, and it turns out the person is exactly what they appeared. Not a good player. However, Zach is one of the few who have not disappointed us and have stepped it up when it counted.

He has played a subtle game. Floater, under the radar, whatever you want to call it. But I do not think he is the normal player in that category. From time to time during the season I saw flashes of the player I thought he was. Then he would regress, and I would think I was mistaken. But he has proven that those flashes we saw were real.

I think Zach's game was almost too subtle. I don't think a lot of people have gotten it yet, and probably won't ever. They just see him as someone who "threw comps," and floated. Nope, that just does not wash. Zach's game was deliberate and adjustable.

When he first came into the house he entered into an alliance. That crumbled within a few days and he had to adjust. After his "buddies" Mike and Nick were gone, he completely changed his plan.

He deliberately did not enter into a strong alliance. but into a loose one with D&D. People don't think he had an opportunity. I disagree. I think he chose that. It did not tie him to too many people so he did not have to "betray" too many. And yet it gave him some flexibility when the time came. I personally think he waited one time too late. He should have voted out Dani instead of Eric. That seems to be his only good.

Think about how he managed to stay off the block until almost the end, without winning a competition. Think about how when the time came he stepped up and won 3 HOHs and a POV in a couple of weeks, and won the most brutal comp in this or perhaps any season.

I have to think he belongs among the better players in BB history if perhaps in a competely unorthordox way.

Spunky
Member

10-08-2001

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Spunky a private message Print Post    
Big Brother is not a game where the best win. I would say the opposite, those with cunniving, intimidating, scheming, betraying and bullying have the right requirements to win.

Another factor is the producers, they manipulate the game with outside influence like the America's player twist and with editing of the show.

And sometime it's just plain luck, but usually with BB is the players with those bad tactics that win BB.

and I hope I killed this thread because I'm all talked out and don't want to spend any more time thinking about this mean spirited game.

Nycsoho
Member

08-11-2007

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nycsoho a private message Print Post    
A good player to me is not someone who sneaks around under the radar or who hovers in bed with their showmance and whispers. Dick yanked the plug on that kind of player from the moment he started banging pots. Get up and play the game. Yes indeed. Dick was a fantastic player and the AP had little to do with that. Dani won 7 competions. The Donatos played while others just stood there. I'm so glad they won.

Marej
Member

09-20-2002

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 6:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Marej a private message Print Post    
Last night on Showtime, Dick said we are the best 2 players ever. Mentioned Janelle; Mike & Will; and Danielle and Jason. I haven't stopped laughing. Janelle would just give him that look that she gave Maggie & Jen when she nominated them.

Chippy
Member

08-16-2007

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:18 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chippy a private message Print Post    
While I'm not looking for Little BB House on the Prairie, I'm so not interested in PsychoBB either. This Donato season has set a very bad precedent IMO.

At the end of the day, the goofiest crapshoot competition EVER determines the final 2. You don't have to outwit or outplay your competetor, you just have to guess right one more than him/her. Year after year, I have to shake my head over how so and so completed a question in the jury house after you've gone through a goolish few months of life in that house. That horrendous 8 hr. part one competition followed by a puzzle and then questions that remind me of the nonsensical netflix commercials just baffles.

Best BB team ever? Feh. It's not how I'll remember them.

Earthmother
Member

07-14-2002

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Earthmother a private message Print Post    
There is no way to play the best. It all depends on the dynamics of the hgs. Unfortunately this game does not reward you for being a nice person. No one wants to go against the "friend" of the house at the end. You win by beating the others in competitions and making bonds with some while making enemies of others. Luck plays a big part in winning as well. It helps to have an analytical mind and body strengh but in the end it's who can garner the most votes from the jury. I truly think AG was hoping for a cast this year that would vote game instead of personal, and I am hoping she is right.

Chippy
Member

08-16-2007

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Chippy a private message Print Post    
She can keep hoping. If they wanted a cast to vote game, the casting director should be getting a new job that involves "do you want fries with that?" LOL

Lucymac
Member

07-06-2005

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Lucymac a private message Print Post    
Marej that totally cracked me up when Dick said they were the best team ever when their dynamic was so different. Danielle and Jason never knew each other going into the house. I don't know how close Janelle and her partner were but I saw it as very different than D/D. Probably the one that had the closest relationship was Will/Boogie. Dick seems to be forgetting it was Janelle that took Will/Boogie down! I have to think had Janelle been in the house D/D wouldn't have made it to the end either. When Janelle said who she would have aligned with, it was not D/D so they would have been a target of hers. I also have to wonder if he will give credit to the rest of his alliance when he learns about AP, which did help their game. And I know the argument has been made that Eric might not have survived the week that Dani put him up if he weren't AP, but I have to wonder if she would have nominated him if he weren't the AP? There would have been no hinky votes, or mustardgate and probably no banner declaring him as a liar. Chances are he might not even have been nominated that week. I certainly don't see D/D as the best team ever.

Poppy
Member

07-21-2006

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Poppy a private message Print Post    
I agree with Jimmer - it's all personal perspective from each individual's point of view, whether viewer or participant.

Wilsonatmd
Member

01-23-2001

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Wilsonatmd a private message Print Post    
This article I think is good in explaining it...

and in any show of this type with a vote-off element, sometimes gameplay is trumped by personality. Shows like Amazing Race and The Mole (especially The Mole) gameplay is king-personality will only take you so far in shows like those.

Milosmom
Member

06-10-2006

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Milosmom a private message Print Post    
Janie and Ashlea were roommates at one time and close friends. And Janie said Dick would have been her Howie, so I do see it as someone she would have aligned with.

Darclyte
Member

07-11-2005

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Darclyte a private message Print Post    
The person who played the "nicest" game and went the farthest IMHO was Jason from BB3. I think he only won the one HOH where he evicted Marcellas and he and Dani mostly flew under the radar and didn't win much.
I think Janelle probably played the best overall game as she played hard at every comp and actually did interact with the others as much as possible. She was targeted early on in BB6 and went into BB7 with a HUGE target on her back, otherwise she may have been more social, but she still always seemed to do pretty well on questions about other HGs.
I think if someone were to be as nice as Jason but win a lot like Danielle and Janelle would make them be the "best" ever, but I don't see that happening. Once someone starts winning stuff, they get targeted and trash talked by the others, and human nature usually doesn't let them just lie there and take it.
Zach towards the end was playing pretty nice and winning stuff without being too much of a jerk back, so it shows it can be done, but doing so from start to finish would probably be tough.

Northwestblonde
Member

09-01-2005

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Northwestblonde a private message Print Post    
Dick's comment just made me roll my eyes at this concept of "best player". I also think that the best player concept extends to how you are viewed historically by others after the game has ended. When Dick said in his goodbye message to Zach that Zach would see that how he played the game was not that good, I thought the same thing of Dick, despite the fact he's in the final two. Sometimes what happens to you after the game can make winning not worth it. If Dick is looking at Johnny Fairplay as a role model for playing, he should check out how he's faired since Survivor...not too good.

Tvjunkie64
Member

09-04-2007

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Tvjunkie64 a private message Print Post    
How about we have a show one year where no one knows each other, no one knows someone in show business and these are your normal average people.

And really, what is there to PLAY on this show? So only if you won HOH or POV you were playing? How did Will manage to be the best "player" in BB history without winning a single thing?

Nyheat
Member

08-09-2006

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 10:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nyheat a private message Print Post    
I agree with you Chippy. The "goofiest crapshoot competition ever" is that complete this sentence one. I didn't like it last year either. Let's hope that they come up with something different next time.