Author |
Message |
The_beav
Member
08-07-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:06 pm
In real life time, I wish I could have a beer with Jimmer and Sanfran. Those are the two posters here that I admire for the well thought out and respectful posts. The board is a better place for having both of you here. I hope this doesn't blow over by the time Jeff leaves the house. I don't expect angry mobs but I hope that he is made aware of the hurtful nature of his comments. He made homophobic comments in his previous season and has not evolved but fingers crossed that he does learn. I don't hate him and he is not a villian but the luster is gone.
|
Kminfinity
Member
06-29-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:10 pm
(I apologize in advance for the length, but this issue hits one of my buttons.) As a teacher, I'd like to second TeachMichigan's post. I'd also like to address the idea that people have the right to believe what they want to believe. It's one of the first challenges I give my jr. high class. I explain that having the right to believe something doesn't mean all beliefs are equal. Our current thrust for tolerance (which is needed) ironically makes this a difficult idea. So I ask them if their opinion is "as good as" my opinion. At first, the knee jerk reaction is yes. I immediately and rather intentionally aggressively say, "no your opinion is NOT as good as mine if it's ill-informed or immoral." I then thunder (gotta act up a bit with this age), "I DO NOT accept that Hitler's opinions of Jews and race issues is "as good as mine." This begins a discussion before we study the Holocaust. Now I've given them a stark contrast to think about and then I ask them to debate the parameters of opinions, respect, tolerance, especially the idea of absolute vs relative morality. They generally, in small groups, come up with pretty reasonable ideas. The best summary this year from one group was that "If we disagree about which flavor of ice cream is best, our opinions are equal, bu8t if we disagree about more important issues we have to think about if there is a right or wrong because even if it's hard to figure out what's moral, the truth is out there." Bottom line: People have the right to wrong opinions. That doesn't make those opinions right. And then the nitty gritty of morality begins.
|
Yankeefan1955
Member
08-01-2008
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:10 pm
This is what is wrong with this country. We were founded on separation of church and state. There are two many people hiding behind religions that encourage this kind of discrimation. Whether it be women,gays or tree huggers. Look who is always in power for the most part except for President Obama(thank goodness),old rich religious white men.
|
Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:23 pm
Any bias based on fear or ignorance is wrong. It is our job to educate these people not point fingers ourselves. Obviously Jeff is homophobic because he is not educated and apparently grew up with this bias. It's not easy to applaud diversity of any kind if you have been raised otherwise. As I said earlier I'm not giving Jeff a pass, but that was a learning moment gone to waste. This is an example of why I feel that way; I have a very good friend who is also a co-worker. She is very close to my children as we have known each other for many, many years. She is a Mormon and when we first started working together she was finding it very hard to embrace the school's policy to add the book My Two Dads to our library. I explained how this policy is good for kids, so those who live with two dads or two moms don't feel different. She agreed, but I knew she hadn't changed her mind. She has been like an aunt to my boys and they love her very much. When she found out my oldest was gay....LOVE won over. She is now a strong advocate for glbt rights. People change when they no longer fear. She used to think that gays could be cured, but she now realizes that there is no disease in being gay, and you can't catch it. We laugh about it now, and she says she can't believe how closed minded she has been. One other good thing is that she's pulled away from her church. She is very open about how that religion taught her to hate, which is not in her nature.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:24 pm
FWIW, I believe that Jeff's comments were absolutely wrong, and I believe he should be called on them. However, we don't know if he 'hates' gays or is trying to spread misinformation. We don't know his position on gay rights or gay marriage. WE don't know if he has campaigned against gay rights in any way. So we shouldn't feed him to the lions just yet. I'm a bit startled that having had gays on his previous season of BB, and on TAR, that he isn't yet more enlightened, but sometimes it takes time to get thru thick skulls. Let's just keep drilling... 
|
Caprica
Member
02-10-2007
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:31 pm
I am offended by what he said but I really do not expect a lot of intelligent comments from my reality TV performers. What has bothered me about this entire thing is that Fans of Jeff want to make excuses for him as if his behavior and the things he says some how define them. In my mind none of his fans share his bigoted opinion until they start saying that what he said was not that bad or maybe he did not mean it the way it sounded. You don't have to hate him because of what he said just please don't tell me that I should not be offended by what he said. When I was younger,my friends and I were having dinner at Red Lobster when this drunk red neck demanded loudly that his party be moved because they shouldn't have eat their dinner in the same room as a bunch of queers. This was before Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in the 90's.It was still real scary in some parts of the country. Things are changing perhaps slowly in some places but still they are changing.
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-16-2003
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:32 pm
he put his arms around my neck, so I gave him a hug, picked him up and took him to a store employee! and if he started screaming and got scared, and the parent showed up, it would look like you were trying to take him. lucky it turned out okay because where i'm from, the police would have been called.
|
Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:37 pm
I agree Kar. I don't hate racists if they truly believe what they are saying, because those who they associate with probably feel the same way. For kids who call others ugly names it's mostly bravado. When adults do it, I'm more concerned. I have a sister in law who thinks ALL priest are pedifiles. She truly believes it. I think what makes her the maddest is that she grew up in a practicing Catholic home and she trusted priests more than any others. I truly believe her hatred stems from being emotionally injured by those she held to higher standard disappointed her. When you lose trust you sometimes also lose rationality. Maybe Jeff experienced some of the same stuff, and therefore has a picture of gay men doing harmful things to kids.
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-16-2003
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:43 pm
i think people are giving jeff an excuse so its 'okay'. fifty percent boys and seventyfive percent girls are molested at some point. if being molested means its okay to be angry and lash out, our society is doomed
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:59 pm
It doesn't mean it's okay, and I've never said that it was, nor did Earthmother. We just said there is a difference between getting out the hangin' rope and letting him know his words are offensive and inaccurate. All kinds of people grow up with inappropriate stereotypes. As hard as I try to educate my DS, he is inundated with these things in various places (like school). He's not a bad kid, or hateful; and every time I hear those words from his mouth, we have a conversation. On some level, he gets it, on another level he doesn't. That's not an 'excuse', and I get so tired of hearing that. It's an 'explanation' and understanding of where he is, while acknowledging that he is not where he needs to be. ETA: I was severely abused as a child, and grew all the way into my mid-20's with an ugly personality and a lot of hate and anger issues. Was it okay that I behaved that way? No. Was it understandable? yes. Did I eventually get that it was wrecking my life and work to change it? yes. Thank God for the people who stuck with me, and knew there was a good heart underneath all that acting out.
|
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-16-2003
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:03 pm
pertaining to jeff, its not an explanation tho. its a guess. we know jeff was raised strict catholic and its a homophobia thing due to those religious beliefs. doesnt anyone remember him going wingding because his Rosary was missing?? anyways, bowing out gracefully
|
Scooterrific
Member
07-08-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:04 pm
Nor did I.
|
Risca76
Member
05-12-2011
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:07 pm
Maybe Jeff is upset because with the pairs this season, it's kinda like Harry Potter... "neither can live while the other survives"...golden ticket and all... Too much of a stretch? Just trying to lighten the mood. A high percentage of the best men I know are gay. Jeff's "reality" is so far from mine... But maybe this was something he said without thinking and isn't what he meant if he said what he really felt. IDK. Off topic: Harry Potter Tomorrow!!!
|
Frogichik
Member
06-11-2002
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:08 pm
Sunshyne I believe those statistics and it's a sad thing to imagine those numbers. I can think 3 of my friends off the top of my head including myself that were molested (on some level).
|
Frogichik
Member
06-11-2002
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:11 pm
When Jeff acting as Dumbledore says "He Harry let me feel your balls" I think his feelings were pretty clear. It's hard to misconstrue that.
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:15 pm
I would be interested to find out where those statistics come from. I have seen them quoted a few times on this board, and am curious as to their origin.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:15 pm
I hate to muddy the water further but it may have been Brendon who chimed in with the "Harry let me feel your balls" Dumbledore imitation.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:18 pm
pertaining to jeff, its not an explanation tho. its a guess. Yes, and I said quite clearly that I didn't know his history. However, the point is that decent people are sometimes very wrong-headed about things; and we don't know their history, so we don't know how they got such a wrong-headed idea. So, it's not fair to condemn them as a human being, or ostracize them, or shun them, until we know more. In my opinion, it is better to educate. I've just known a lot of people who have said similar things. And over time, with conversation and education they have changed their minds. That's better to me then condemnation.
|
Uncle_ricky
Member
07-02-2007
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 4:06 pm
Jimmer is correct: It was Brendon who chimed in with the "balls" comment. And, for what it's worth, I was repeatedly molested by (male) sexual predators as a child. I was 7 the first time it happened and continued into my teens. The molestations didn't make me gay - I was, as the song goes, born that way. I did, however (when I became an adult) resent the pedophiles who molested me because they prevented me from experiencing the non-abusive childhood that my kid peers experienced. The thing I'm most thankful for is that I didn't grow up to be a pedophile myself (a common occurrence among victims when they mature into adulthood). I was also raised Catholic, but I fled the church (at age 13) only because I simply could not relate to that -- or any other -- religion.
|
Kminfinity
Member
06-29-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 4:34 pm
Here are the stats I found recently: http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/tell_others_the_facts.html 15% of pop was either molested or molester http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics Appx 3.5 million children are abused; 7% OF CHILD ABUSE is sexual; 7% of 3.5 mil = 250K children under 18 are sex abuse victims in any year. Children under 18 represent ~25% of the population of 311 mil, or appx. 77 million, so 250K is less than half a percent.(These are REPORTED figures, which may be very UNDERreported.) Wiki's figures describe totals for the entire population, not for children at the current time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse These figures are a little closer to Sunshyne's- Appx 15-25% of women and 5-15% of men are victims. The national center for Victims of Crimes gives similar stats as Wiki: http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32315
|
Pinklady222
Member
07-16-2009
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 4:42 pm
I agree Karuuna. Jeff made some extremely ignorant statements. Ignorance comes from faulty education - raised in a faulty belief system that you misguidedly assume as "truth" - or lack of education altogether...both of which can create an irrational "fear" of something unknown. And men especially do not handle their "fears" well (sorry guys). But ignorance does not make a man completely and totally hopelessly evil. Just ignorant, in need of someone to teach him better. Man, I know when my grandparents were alive, I would cringe listening to my grandpa talk at times. My grandpa was a very good, sweet, kind, loving man whom I adored...but some of the false truths he was raised with left him terribly ignorant. But once a person has close friendships with decent, kind, caring homosexual men/women who would sooner hurt themselves than EVER hurt a hair on a child's head...that ignorance is gone and that person has no choice but to release that false truth. Jeff should definitely know WAY better. I hate his ignorance...but I'm not going to make assumtions and hate the whole man. If I do, I'm no better than he is.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 4:46 pm
Yeah, when I watch that clip I see a guy who is just incredulous that people can see it any other way. That just seems to me to be an old, unchallenged belief - and then he got defensive and shut down when challenged. He's not the kind of person I sometimes see, who go on anti-gay rants. Hopefully he will come around once he gets some facts to challenge that stupid false belief.
|
Kswheels
Member
06-30-2005
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:03 pm
I'm suddenly reminded of one of the more memorable big brother showmances in the history of the show. Kent and Bunky. Specifically when Kent said something to the effect that he thought Bunky was a deviant and a sinner, but he would fight to the death to defend Bunky's right to be gay.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:04 pm
Well I think there should be as much tolerance for anti gay talk/thoughts as there is for racist talk/thoughts.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:20 pm
People today are rarely raised to be racist, except against immigrants. I think we always need to be aware of context, and the nature of the remarks themselves. I have a very dear friend, raised by white supremacists. During his early 20s he even worked for an underground newspaper for that group. I still remember his story about leaving home and going to Nashville to be a songwriter. He met a black man, and he says "and he was nice!" with an expression of total surprise. He's not a bad person. When exposed to something different than the way he was raised, he started to think differently. But as he honestly admits, he still has a knee jerk reaction to black people, drummed into him from the time he was a baby. He just has to constantly overrule it with logic. We live in a time where *many* people still think that being gay is a choice, including many of our politicians. We certainly need to call them out on their prejudices, but most people don't need to be hated, they need to be educated.
|