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Archive through July 14, 2011

Reality TVClubHouse Discussions: Big Brother USA ARCHIVES: Big Brother 13 - Part 2: Jeff/Kalia Discussion Regarding Dumbledore Being Gay: Archive through July 14, 2011 users admin

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Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
"The main thing Jeff objected to was the headmaster/character in a CHILDREN'S BOOK being gay."

Again....if they were talking about the headmaster being black, everyone would be lambasting him, except maybe the KKK.

Being gay is just like being left handed or being black - it's something that we ARE, not something we DO nor is it something we "choose"....and it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:14 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Caycaye a private message Print Post    
I have watched Jeff for the third season of a reality show now.....I really find Jeff to be a sweet, kind-hearted man with a gruff exterior and a heart of gold. Is he wrong about gays teaching children? Absolutely. He is, and will get a LOT of backlash for this mess he got himself into.

Should he be CRUCIFIED for this prejudice? Not in my opinion. He should be educated, and I really think he WILL learn from this, be embarrassed by his own behavior, and adjust his way of thinking. Sometimes it takes a BIG mistake for someone to learn and change. I have faith in Jeff's "heart" and character to realize how wrong he is. But that is just me.....

Southerngirl
Member

07-28-2008

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Southerngirl a private message Print Post    
Sanfran,I don't think being gay is something to be ashamed of.I guess we are all just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Kswheels
Member

06-30-2005

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kswheels a private message Print Post    
SFJF - As a left handed crippled person (I know it's an un-PC term but the PC terms bug me, and I'm a rebel.) I agree completely. But I guess being in a wheelchair gives me a perspective that some people don't have.

People make insensitive comments sometimes. They ask insensitive questions. They make jokes. They believe they know more about my situation than I do.

I have learned over my lifetime that they don't do it out of cruelty or a desire to hurt. They do it out of a lack of understanding. Shunning Jeff won't do any good. Getting angry and labeling him an abusive homophobe won't do any good.

The people who don't know how to act around a person in a wheelchair, and people who believe what Jeff believes about gay people need the same thing. Education.

Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Caycaye a private message Print Post    
I totally agree Kswheels....that is what I was TRYING to say......

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 11:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
"Sanfran,I don't think being gay is something to be ashamed of."

If it's not something to be ashamed of, we shouldn't teach children it's shameful by calling it "inappropriate" and hiding it from them. They WILL come across a friend with 2 mommies or see two guys holding hands or see/hear something on TV, so pretending that same sex couples don't exist will just teach them that's it's wrong....and some of those kids will turn out to be gay and grow up feeling ashamed and afraid when they finally realize that they are that secret, shameful thing that mommy and daddy only spoke about in whispers.

No one ever taught me what "gay" was until I learned what "queer" meant when I was just 12 years old...and I immediately understood that's what *I* was. I spent all of my middle school and high school years in abject fear because I knew I was that "dirty word" I couldn't say in front of my mother without getting slapped. I only understood that I could never let anyone else know. It was an awful thing for me to have to go through and I made very few friends during those years. I was a very lonely and fearful kid filled with shame for no good reason.

A segment of society is going to be gay no matter what people teach their kids...but the kids that understand that there are daddy/daddy couples won't have to live in fear and self loathing during their formative years like I had to.

If it's appropriate to explain a "Mommy/Daddy relationship to a kid, then it's appropriate to explain a "Daddy/Daddy or a Mommy/Mommy relationship. And when I say "explain a relationship", I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about the bond/relationship between two loving people. They love each other. Period. What's inappropriate about kids knowing that?

Sorry for the rant...I guess I just want folks to understand the issue from all sides.

Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:07 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Caycaye a private message Print Post    
It's not Sanfran.....

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:16 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
"I have learned over my lifetime that they don't do it out of cruelty or a desire to hurt. They do it out of a lack of understanding. Shunning Jeff won't do any good. Getting angry and labeling him an abusive homophobe won't do any good."

Kswheels, I totally agree with you.

I do believe the homophobia Jeff expressed was born of ignorance, not hate. I'm also not "shunning" Jeff....I'm just very disappointed in him. I was a huge fan of his and I was personally offended by his thoughtless remarks. I'm also not angry at him and I never said I was. I never said he was abusive but I did state that I believe Jeff is not abusive.

I think when people one likes suddenly sound like one's enemies (prop 8 supporters), it's shocking. Yes, he dropped a notch or two in my opinion of who I thought he was, but I'm not "angry" at him and I'm not shunning him.

Jeff basically said people like me would be inappropriate running a camp or school for kids. He's just 100% wrong. We are not bad people and there is no reason for children to fear us and there is no reason to teach children that gay=shameful by pretending that we don't exist.

The point of my recent posts on this subject is to help people understand how it feels to be thought of as "inappropriate" for simply being born as the person I am.

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
"It's not Sanfran....."

Yes, it is. It's both appropriate and necessary to let kids know that some of their friends may have two daddies or two mommies.

I was one of those kids that needed to know that.

Bellab9858
Member

05-31-2011

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Bellab9858 a private message Print Post    
Ks ITA with you. CBS was very quick to let these comments be aired it would have only been fair to air his apology, but that won't make news.

Sunshyne4u
Member

06-16-2003

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 12:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sunshyne4u a private message Print Post    
regularly or habitually

neither of those descriptions/ definitions involve a number. bad example.. a person can be regularly constipated-- but only every second or third month but its been years.

my point was that there is a huge difference between my original comment and a Constant physical abuser. I never said JEFF was a physical abuser either.

jeff lashes out when frustrated.

many men lash out when frustrated. some men only get frustrated a few times a year OR if drunk. some men only drink rarely therefore become abusive rarely. we all have different experiences. I respect all your opinions. respect mine?? (rhetorical, i dont want an answer)

Grendelsmom
Member

07-31-2005

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 1:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Grendelsmom a private message Print Post    
It cracks me up when people act as if gay people are some sort of exotic species you'll only encounter by going to certain places. Gay people are around everywhere. They are your bus driver, your waitress, your teacher.... I'm sure there has been many a gay headmaster or mistress in the history of the world. How that is not appropriate to acknowledge to a child is beyond me. Implicit in that statement is the attitude that there is something wrong with being gay. I don't see how anyone could get around that.

Gay people are people, whole people, not just sexual beings. The stereotype of gay men being pedophiles is very like the idea that black men are sexual beasts who live to ravage white women. Think about that for a minute.

Take all the gay people away suddenly, and things would get really bad really rapidly. In our society we necessarily depend on each other to fill our various needs, and there are many gay people out there right now doing or making something you need. Gay people are as much a part of "us" as anyone. To pretend otherwise is a kind of cultural insanity, like pretending it was okay to have slaves. And to say it's "inappropriate" to acknowledge someone's existence is insane. I know we don't "mean" it that way, but that's in fact what it is, and we need to start thinking about what we really "mean" considering entire groups of people. Jeff needs to come to that realization just like a majority of the rest of "us," probably.

On another note, I'll second Sun's idea that some abused women stay because there are elements of the relationship they don't want to give up. Many times it's called love. People who have never been in a relationship like that likely think it's crazy to say such a thing, that you could love your abuser (apart from the Stockholm syndrome), but think about kids who grow up with abusive parents. It's obvious that many kids who do deeply love their parents. It's not all about Stockholm syndrome or codependence. Maybe a majority of women stay in abusive relationships because they are afraid and have been brain-washed, but certainly there are some who stay for other reasons, or a combination of many.

In my family there is a long line of strong women who stayed with their alcoholic, abusive husbands because that is just what you did. Didn't mean they weren't strong. Who could be stronger than the wife of an abusive husband, really?

Sanfranjoshfan
Member

09-17-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 1:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sanfranjoshfan a private message Print Post    
" a person can be regularly constipated--"

That just means the person is irregular!



Seamonkey
Moderator

09-07-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 1:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Seamonkey a private message Print Post    
The ignorant assumption is that if you are gay or lesbian then you are unsafe around children, equating being homosexual (or bi or trans) as being a pedophile.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Sunshyne4u
Member

06-16-2003

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 2:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Sunshyne4u a private message Print Post    
to go along with Sanfran's post.

http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot

Kep421
Member

08-11-2001

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 3:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kep421 a private message Print Post    
Actually, from my experience...people who do not want their kids around gay people don't think they will be molested so much as they fear their child will "catch it" (for lack of a better phrase) and become gay too.

I've many gay friends and relatives...and some relatives and friends who, while they don't "hate" gays, they do have the attitude that they do not want to expose their children to the "gay lifestyle" while they are young. All parents, regardless of their sexual orientation should have the right to raise their children as they feel is right and moral.

Most of those I know...who would be considered homophobic by some...really have a live and let live attitude. Some have expressed frustration at having homosexuality pushed into their lives by the media and public opinion and told they MUST change their beliefs and morals or else be labeled a hater, a homophobic, or ignorant person. They are just people who are like the rest of us...just trying to make sense of it all.

My friend who is gay, Leigh, got through to me when I was about 22. She asked me if I could ever be with a woman. I told her I tried it once and no...never again... it just wasn't right. She told me that's was the way she felt with a man. That sunk home. I couldn't choose to be gay if I wanted too...and she couldn't choose to me straight as much as she did want too.

I try to explain this to others...some get it...some don't.

Pippin04
Member

10-26-2007

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 4:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Pippin04 a private message Print Post    
When my daughter was in grade one. I walked into her class after school to find her male teacher with a child on his lap. I asked him what the he was doing. He responded with just having some private teaching time. I told him it was not acceptable. Left the room and asked my daughter openly if she ever sat on his lap or was touched. She assured me she was not. This was hard because I had to ask her in a way that she would not think she did something wrong. I then went to the headmaster and reported what I saw. The teacher was reprimanded and dismissed at the end of the year. This was a very strict catholic school. Since this time my daughter has had many male teachers and all were great.

Male, female, gay, straight, black, etc..... It does not matter. What should matter is to give our children the best education ever.

Mummy35332
Member

09-09-2005

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mummy35332 a private message Print Post    
CHILDREN'S BOOK
CHILDREN'S BOOK

IMO Jeff was objecting to introducing it into a CHILDREN'S BOOK. Any sexuality into a CHILDREN'S BOOK is not needed.

IMO It's not the adult world that has been debated in this thread. It's about what do you want to explain to your seven y.o .when you are reading to them before they go to sleep. I don't want to explain any sexual relationships to my 7 y.o. at bedtime. Just leave them wondering what will happen next to Harry Potter.

At the time the BOOKS came out,.... not the movies,..... my kids were too young to understand any sexual relationships.

If the books had been written with an openly gay character wouldn't there have been scenes/chapters that didn't make sense to the entirety of the story? Simple good vs. evil. So the author made a choice.

None of the teachers at Hogwarts were mentioned as having spouses.

Dumbledore
McGonagle (sp)
Sprout
Snape
Lupin
Mad eye
Etc.

Kreno
Member

08-21-2005

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Kreno a private message Print Post    
Actually Lupin does have a wife, and they do show Snape's love interest.

Nyheat
Member

08-09-2006

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Nyheat a private message Print Post    
Cosigning Seamonkey's post. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. It reminds me of the brilliant movie/play Doubt: was the priest suspected for molesting boys, or was he a "menace" for trying to guide a young, homosexual boy through some difficult times?

Either way, it's on Jeff for saying the things he did. Otherwise he seems to be well-liked, but has some issues with homesexuality that only he can resolve.

Reenie
Member

06-24-2006

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 5:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Reenie a private message Print Post    
IMO Jeff was objecting to introducing it into a CHILDREN'S BOOK. Any sexuality into a CHILDREN'S BOOK is not needed.

I think that is what he was saying too. Without a doubt, he said it very poorly.

As someone upthread said, some people equate being gay with being a pedofile. That is so far from the truth. There is no connection. Gay people are just as horrified as straight people when it comes to pedofiles.

It's good we can discuss it.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 6:01 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Mummy, It's not like gay people have sex 24 hours a day (just like Heterosexual people don't have sex 24 hours a day). However, gay people do form loving relationships just the same as straight people. There are many many examples of loving relationships in Harry Potter between men and women where sex is not mentioned. So why would it be wrong to show the same relationship for two gay characters?

Mummy35332
Member

09-09-2005

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 6:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Mummy35332 a private message Print Post    
Lupin has a spouse after he is a teacher at Hogwarts.

Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler
Yes, Snape was in love with Harry's Mom. It's why he protects Harry.


Still no teachers with spouses at Hogwarts.

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 6:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
Hagrid is also shown to be interested in his giant lady friend (can't remember her name).

Jimmer
Moderator

08-30-2000

Thursday, July 14, 2011 - 6:10 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Jimmer a private message Print Post    
I hope you don't mind but I spoiler boxed that Mummy. As a big Harry Potter fan I don't know where other people are at in the stories or watching the movies and we don't want to spoil it for them. :-)