Author |
Message |
Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:10 pm
it would be nice if the rules stated they would be eliminated for physical abuse. the screaming is hard enough to take, but i can imagine my dh and me occasionally having some loud discussions due to the stress. physical contact like what jonathon did to victoria should make them automatically disqualified, with their remaining money divided among the couples who are left. remember, he also almost let her have it with his elbow in the cab a couple of episodes back. they should be called 'volatile and accepting'. it is very sad. i also feel if jonathan is like this knowing he is being filmed, he doesn't hold back when they are alone. perhaps victoria can't quite bring herself to get rid of him because then he'd be the stalker from hell. she may be worse off without him than she is with him! isn't that a scary thought?
|
Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:19 pm
In the bio part of the website, Jon says, I got to be a Jedi Master and a Super Hero for 30 days. What more could a boy ask for. Could that be a clue as to how long they stay in? I thought that with the number of teams....the competition would last a lot longer. Anyone else know how long each leg lasts approximately, so we can have an Estimated Time of Elimination? On a differnet note....I thoght Kendra's comments this week and last week were WAY more heinous than Jonathan's actions this week. Personally, I could see why he was putting his bag down, but he just didn't communicate that to Victoria well enough. As for him hitting her napsack and throwing her off balance....well....it wasn't THAT horrible. It's just combined with everything else, he really does come across a bit like an abusive person. Victoria though, needed to CHILL OUT!! Holy Moly girl!! You're second place!! You are both loaded. Who cares about what trip you will win for first? Sheesh!! Gus and Hera at the slave post was sooo touching. I had tears in my eyes. And I love Gus wanting more beer. He is quite the cool character. I dislike Hayden but love Aaron. She comes across like a witch. When she was bickering with Bolo and Lori, and insulting them....so rude. And then it's BOLO who is the bigger person and apologizes. I actually like Lori and Bolo. Kris and Jon have been my favourites from day one. They just get along so well, and are so polite, and nice. They rock. Sad to see great people like Don and MJ go tonight....but it was inevitable. I like that Jonathon will not be paid back the 20$ he lent them. heh heh heh. I think Kendra needs to take a first year sociology class, so understand the world a bit better. Her ignorance is not becoming of her. (and mods, I mean 'ignorance' in the true meaning of the word, not as an insult)
|
Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:26 pm
i think what jon did WAS that horrible. JMHO.
|
Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:37 pm
I dunno. Both are pretty bad, but ignorance affects more than one person. There are probably MANY more people who are affected by Kendra's uninformed commentary on the social condition, than how many people Jon affects with his abusiveness. Jon's offenses are blatant, and most would not tolerate that crap. Kendra on the other hand comes across as racist, and intolerant, and ethnocentric. Many people tolerate comments like hers, and that is where I consider her worse. Her prejudices and stereotypes come out in discriminatory behaviour, which can lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, and the "vicious circle".
|
Tabbyking
Member
03-11-2002
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:49 pm
i wasn't comparing the two. kendra's comment was both ignorant and rude. i was an abused wife. trust me, jon's behavior WAS that bad.
|
Jennywa
Member
07-17-2003
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:57 pm
Kendra diminishes people on a social level. Jonathon diminishes people on a personal level. I'm not sure which is worse.... I disrespect them both...
|
Annie
Member
11-10-2004
| Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 11:57 pm
I also found Rebeccas comment, at best, insensitive......"no wonder they wanted to escape." I don't think they thought of slavery as an escape. I was so sure they were going to eliminate Jonathon for being so abusive, or that Victoria would just quit. If my partner/hubby/or other did that to me, he would look mighty foolish getting up from the ground and explaining how he got there. This is far from the last leg of the race, coming in second isn't too bad IMO. I must admit I was impressed w/ the grandparents not wanting to ask the locals for a handout, and that the other teams helped them instead. I think my favs for now are Gus and Hera and the long distance dating couple (she reminds me of Brittany Spears), but that's not why they are my favs.......they just seem kind.
|
Mush
Member
09-09-2002
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 12:03 am
I didn't think that Victoria cried at the end because they came in 2nd. It just seemed like she was on edge because of her run-in with Jon and it all came out when it was over. I also understand about wanting not to leave the pack. She said something about "they'll take it", so it sounded like she was afraid that it would be stolen. I imagine that a stolen pack would not be good.
|
Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 12:29 am
OMG!! My mistake Tabby! I totally thought it was a comparison. I feel so bad now!! I completely misunderstood your post. Please accept my apologies!!

|
Seamonkey
Member
09-07-2000
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 1:30 am
Eeyores, with great respect for differeing opinions, I have to strongly disagree with you about that couple.. all too often the abused/victim is blamed for what the abuser does. Sorry, but it makes the hair stand up on my neck to hear that sort of excusing. As for why Victoria didn't let him leave his knapsack behind, I think it was because she has such great fear at the rage that would come over him if someone HAD stolen his pack.. even though she is clearly already carrying more of their stuff and her pack is heavier, I have no doubt that he would berate her. Anyway, agree that Kendra is horrible in the classic ugly american mold. Jonathan should be eliminated and I think Phil wanted to do that on the spot. I hope they at least get some penalty, but I'm doubtful that will happen. I just find my stomach tensing whenever this couple is on the screen and don't find that pleasant viewing at all.. Don and MJ.. well yes it was touching, but a bit dishonest to take more money than they would have gotten if they weren't in last place, and personally I'm sort of glad they didn't move up at the expense of one of their benefactors, BUT I do think they are a sweet couple and that they should be very proud of their adventure on TAR. (and I could have taken it well if they had beaten Kendra or Jon/Vic.. Angelic, how come it is remarkable that you would feel emotional about Gus at the slave place, as a Canadian?? I mean, there were slaves from Africa in Canada, too. Now, a really positive thing.. in the past I criticized TAR for forcing people to just blow by incredibly important/touching places, best example I can think of is when they were in South Africa at Robben Island Prison (where Nelson Mandela had been held) and because of the schedule the teams mostly just raced in and out.. it seems so disrespectful.. and it seemed to me that they might have listened and that's why they had this small ceremony in tonight's episode.. so YAY!! And it did seem like most of the teams at least had fun doing the actual tasks tonight.. {{{Tabby}}}}
|
Seamonkey
Member
09-07-2000
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 1:41 am
Eeyores, I can see if you read their website (which I'm sure you did) you'd be more down on Victoria too.. my reaction is based soley (or was) on the tv show.. UGH.. they both need to begone.
|
Eeyoreslament
Member
07-20-2003
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 3:14 am
OK I kinda feel like I need to clarify what I was saying earlier. What happened tonight was...I read the spoilers, and then watched the later show. After reading the spoilers, I thought the push was WAY worse in the spoilers than it ended up being on TV. THAT DOES NOT MEAN that I excuse any abuse. I absolutely DO NOT blame Victoria for how Jonathan treats her. What I MEANT in my remarks earlier was that Jonathan took his own risk, and had he just said "I'm leaving the bag there and I'll chance it being stolen if it means running faster to be in first." (Or something to that effect.) If anyone searches back in my posts from the first few shows, you will see I in no way condone abuse, or blame women in those situations. In fact, when someone had previously alluded to the fact that Victoria was free to leave him, I respectfully disagreed and said women who are being abused ARE NOT free to leave that easily. It just bothers me that people may think I am insensitive to domestic abuse victims, because I am not. My comments about Victoria were pertaining to her crying. Yes you can cry, but her cry reminded me of when little kids as so upset that when they cry they can barely breathe. It was a very dramatic cry, and I had just wished she could have had a bit more perspective on the situation. She cried like she had just lost her own child, yet it was one leg, of a race that really means nothing. Never in any of my post was I EXCUSING Jonathan for anything he does. All I said was it wasn't THAT bad, and I meant in comparison to what I had pictured based on reading the spoilers, BEFORE watching the show. Much the same way that getting a root canal or needle is not AS BAD as you expect beforehand. I just did not make myself clear. There is no way I would refer to abuse in general as "not that bad". Perhaps had I separated the two points I made in the Jon/Vic paragraph, perhaps people would not have connected them. So: Point 1) Jonathan's push sounded worse in spoilers than it looked on TV. and Point 2) (COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM POINT ONE) Victoria cried a bit too much for the situation at hand. JMHO. Don't worry, I haven't taken offense to anyone's comments ABOUT my comments. I just felt that I needed to clarify, before more people misunderstood me and felt they needed to write a response.
|
Whoami
Member
08-03-2001
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 3:41 am
I guess it all depends on if Victoria was crying because they were second, or because of Jonathan's abuse. IIRC, the beginning of the show had him basically saying that anything less than first was unacceptable. At some point in the show, I thought I heard him berating her that it was all her fault they kept losing their lead in each leg. Naturally, I would expect someone of his ilk to blame everyone but himself for failing to live up to his expectations. I really think her hysteria had more to do with his abuse leading up to the pit stop. And possibly a little about knowing what consequences she would be paying for "failing his expectations once again."
|
Wendo
Member
08-07-2000
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 4:22 am
Eeyore, I think the point you're missing from the other posts here pertains to WHY Victoria was crying. IMO, it was quite clear that she wasn't crying because they came in second place. She was crying because prior to coming in second place her husband had just berated her and shoved her because she was trying to keep his pack from being stolen. (Compare it to the pair who did come in first; he carried her pack for her.) At that point, I don't think Victoria cared one way or another where they placed. I just don't see how one can think Victoria was crying due to coming in second when one considers how Jonathon was treating her.
|
Ar_jammer
Member
11-17-2004
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 5:02 am
The ending was terrible emotionally. There is nothing but pain here. Phil was put in such a difficult spot... not down playing Victoria's pain. With that I am hard pressed to post my links... but here goes. Episode 5 Links. I’m still overcome by that ending… Here we go. Gate of No Return. This part of the show was so well done. This is the actual picture of the gate… where they placedthe roses, etc. http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.phpURL_ID=9706&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html curious, this link works in the browser but not from this page. and a new Goree Island link http://www.congo-pages.org/senegal/Goree.htm Looking for maps… WorldAtlas.com is interesting http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/lgcolor/decolor.htm from lonely planet http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/europe/berlin/berlin.htm another cool map from gesource http://www.gesource.ac.uk/worldguide/city_berlin/6.html Berlin wall… Good picture map http://www.dailysoft.com/berlinwall/maps/berlinwallmap_02.htm Even better http://www.dailysoft.com/berlinwall/maps/berlinwallmap_01.htm 15th anniversary news story on the wall falling http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1971.cfm and of course… berlin-wall.org this has lots of interesting info http://berlin-wall.org/b_muren.html lots of good links at the bottom, hard not to find Berlin Wall pictures. on to the Memorial Church on the Kurfürstendamm which is also named the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church, this includes a picture before the damage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Wilhelm_Memorial_Church A travelers site with several pictures of the church and the sculpture http://www.jellesen.dk/webcrea/places/berlin/berlin.html Just found this site… berlin-landmarks.com. It has the Brandenburg Gate, Berlin Wall, The Memorial Church and more. Each one has a short note and a link to a map. Not the best but I thought I would include it. http://www.berlin-landmarks.com/berlin_landmarks.html This site is similar but with hotel info… and more background http://www.der-berliner.com/berlin/berlin1.htm Broken Chain Sculpture Okay I don’t know who this guy is but he has taken some wonderful pictures of germany and Prague… its worth a look http://frank.harvard.edu/~howard/photo/germany_sept03/#berlin There were some sites above with more pictures of the sculpture. Zitadelle Could this be where they made bratwurst? http://www.zitadelle-spandau.de/ This sure has pictures on it that look very familiar http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Thomas_Schreiber/zitadell.htm Unfortunately I don’t know German… Tuefelsberg Hard to find anything of interest…Although Devils Mountain was used as a major spy installation during the Cold War… there is a little info here on this link, you need to scroll down. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/1313205.stm Finally Brandenburg Gate Excellent pictures http://www.dailysoft.com/east-berlin/mitte/bgate.htm http://www.dailysoft.com/berlinwall/photographs/brandenburggate.htm Reagan’s speech at the gate (no political commentary intended) http://www.ronaldreagan.com/sp_11.html This is cool, 360 panorama at the gate. http://www.panorama-cities.net/berlin/brandenburg_gate.html and finally a great site from the government I believe with the gate and berlin wall info http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/wanderungen/en/s4_brandenburgertor.shtml There you have it. Hope you find them interesting.
|
Pamy
Member
01-02-2002
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 6:23 am
thanks Ar! great work!
|
Hobbs
Member
08-05-2002
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 6:57 am
I would love it if at the next airport Vitoria flashes Jon the proverbial bird and gets on the next flight to America just as it was boarding and it is too late for Jon to get a ticket. Boy would he have a tantrum. Now that would be great television! How many people would stand up and cheer for Victoria. Unfortunately, I'm sure it wont happen.
|
Wilsonatmd
Member
01-23-2001
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 7:00 am
I just wonder how Jonothan got past the psychological testing these shows usually do. I mean, you have a lot of money, and you're married to a Playmate. Why do you: -squabble over 1 lousy minute in a leg that's not the LAST ONE? (I mean, you didn't lose a million dollars, you lost a trip worth what, a couple of thou at most?) The rules state that, execpt in a few cases, the camera crews and producers won't keep an eye on your bags if you drop them off somewhere, so Victoria was right in doing what she did (what if that pack had the team money in it?) -Making your wife cry over said incident. I mean, Phil was classy in telling him he should have talked to Victoria....I'd be hardpressed not to attempt to punch his lights out. You can't blame the editing here... I just hope that they don't end up winning the thing....that could turn a lot of people off of the show. I don't know if they can penalize what he did tho.
|
Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 7:10 am
I don't think Jonathan has a clue as to how his behaviour seems to other. When Phil asked him to talk to Victoria, he went over to her and started blaming her for them not being first. I don't think Victoria was crying because they came in second, I think she was crying because of his behavior. This was a difficult show to watch.
|
Jasper
Member
09-14-2000
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 7:51 am
I thought Victoria started crying because she was totally drained from dealing with Jon for the whole leg. Phil looked so uncomfortable with the whole display. Fingers crossed they go soon with Freddy and Kendra right behind them, members of these two teams are spoiling the show with their behaviour.
|
Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 8:02 am
I think Kendra got lucky this week. And she can thank Jonathan. People are so outraged over Jonathan's shove to Vic that they forget about her racist, rude and ignorant comments. I can't believe she didn't even know what a beer stein was.
|
Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 8:40 am
No one NO ONE should push another person especially their wife with anger and force the way Jon did. There is not justification, at all. He was still pleading his case when they stepped onto the mat and she was in emotional pain crying. Jon ignored her pain and continued to blame her for picking up his bag. Was the potential of winning a trip worth shoving his wife in anger and berating her verbally? The few seconds between 1st and 2nd doesn’t mean anything in this game...at this leg of the race. So I’m thinking Jon reallyreallyreallly wanted to win a trip or he’s naturally abusive. IMO at the moment of the shove they should have been eliminated from the game. Most of these shows have a no violence rule. That shove was violent. They should have been eliminated! I’m really worked up over this.
|
Seamonkey
Member
09-07-2000
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 8:55 am
Thanks, Eeyores.. yes the reason I returned was that I read some commnts you had made about J/Vic in their own area. Still disagree about why she was crying and about why she picked up the bag.. I DO think if they had lost anything he would have made it out to be her fault. I don't care for either one of them, but his behavior is appalling and Phil's face said it all.. he was simply repulsed. Plus it seems to me that Jon was fooling around at the sausage factory and it could well have been THOSE minutes that lost them the trip.
|
Wilsonatmd
Member
01-23-2001
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 8:58 am
Yeah but the problem is, I bet the "no violence rule" is more of "no violence against other teams". And Victoria is innocent in all this. How can the producers punish Jonothan without punishing her? It's a Catch-22 because of the teams. And this is how Jonothan defended himself on his website (edited for language): "If your going to lead, lead. If your going to follow, follow. Anything else get the ---- out of my way. We are playing a GAME for One Million Dollars." (comment: And it's only leg 5.....imagine what would happen if that happened at leg 13? *prays that they don't even get close to leg 13*) Personally, I hope that this doesn't turn people off from the show. We have had one person like this in 6 seasons and over 100 people. It's still a great show, just sometimes you can't predict things like this thru the psychological testing. And Karma will no doubt bite him in the end.....I doubt the editiors would have shown a bunch of this stuff if they ended up winning the whole thing.
|
Tvwatcher
Member
04-17-2004
| Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 9:08 am
I'm just a bit concerned about his reaction when they do get eliminated.
|
|
|
|