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Archive through April 07, 2005

The TVClubHouse: Amazing Race ARCHIVES: Amazing Race VII: AR Teams: Lynn & Alex: ARCHIVES: Archive through April 07, 2005 users admin

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Spygirl
Moderator

04-23-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kep, your first post joins in the notion that those who find the comment offensive should not feel that way.

Your second post confirms you feel that way

You don't have to think it was a racist comment, but to imply I'm wrong for thinking it actually violates your own last post about ridiculing opposing opinions.



Kep421
Member

08-11-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:11 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Not understanding why you do something doesn't automatically imply you are wrong...do I think your wrong?... yes...does it make you wrong? No. Besides, you think I'm wrong too, but I'm not ridiculing your opinion.

I still do not appreciate being ridiculed.

Spygirl
Moderator

04-23-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:16 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'm not sure how you think you were ridiculed. The posts above seemed to tell me that anyone who feels the comments were racist are wrong - and in some ways ignorant - and that if Uchenna didn't find them offensive, we should not either.

I simply followed that logic in order to point out the flaw in that thinking.

If none of us here are allowed to find something offensive if the person it was directed to didn't, then why do we have discussion boards to share opinions? Why wouldn't we just get a direct report from every person and skip our own views altogether? That is what is being said in that argument.

If you find that ridiculing to debate the logic behind a presented idea, my apologies. It just doesn't seem to gel for me, that's all.


Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:20 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thank you, Spygirl.

Seamonkey, I agree. Apparently Rob learned something from his Survivor experience about tolerance.

When I used the term ignorant, I meant it in terms of being uninformed which can lead to fear. Every time this couple has made what I feel are inappropriate remarks it has been when they felt threatened either personally (Compton) or in their position in the game (the market, M/G and U/J). Almost every team in the game immediately had a real hate (some bordered on obsessive) going for R/A simply because they knew these guys would be a serious threat and L/A, as well as Patrick, appeared to be at the top of that list. That is what I meant by ignorant.

This conclusion was not reached quickly. It has developed from watching them say these things week after week. Once, you let it pass. Twice, you start to wonder. After that, you realize it can't always be the editing and do start to form an opinion.

Kep421
Member

08-11-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:23 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
the above opposing posts were making fun of my opinion. It wasn't just stating an opposing side. Making fun isn't presenting an idea.. it was meant to minimize and discredit my post.

You are entitled to your opinion without being belittled...I would appreciate the same.

Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 7:58 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
the reason I dont like Lynne and Alex had nothing to do with this past week. I liked them until their behavior in the fish market. Calling the fish seller a was just to me everything about the ugly american tourist that you have heard. I dont like them and I dont think they respect the locals.

From what I have seen of Rob he hasnt in my view insulted the residents of the country he is visiting. That is a huge thing with me.

As far as the comment abuot Uchenna, to me it was just plain ignorant and another example of their meanness

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:06 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Maris, wait til next week. Did you see the previews they showed after the recap show? They were different that the ones after Tuesday's show and they show Rob being rather mean and threatening to the locals...

I also think that comment was no big deal. I did not find it insulting to Uchenna at all... to find it ignorant or mean is to exaggerate it... My opinion.

Texannie
Member

07-16-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:19 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kep, I wasn't ridiculing your opinion. I was agreeing with Spy about the irony of all the comments along the same lines, not just yours.

And Spy, I still agree with you!

Justalittlebean
Member

08-15-2003

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 8:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I have my opinion on Rob from watching Survivor and it hasn't changed one bit. Rob lives by "do as I say, not as I do". I don't see a big deal with the remark made by Lynn & Alex. I learned something from a Navy Chaplin that I always remember. He said that life sometimes can be like eating fish. You eat the meat and spit out the bones. I just learned to ignore some things in life. Life is to short to be always trying to find a argument.

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 9:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Life is to short to be always trying to find a argument.

But sometimes, like in discussing reality TV, it can actually sometimes be educational, not to mention so much fun.

Penpoint
Member

03-27-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 9:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Interesting that one cannot make reference to or acknowledge another person's roots, culture, or genetics even when that other person is at that very moment relishing in and celebrating his roots, culture, and genetics.

Cousin_jake
Member

07-04-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Interesting points of view. My ancestors are from Scotland. If I were to pick up bagpipes for the first time and manage to make a musical note and someone said "Well - she was born to do that" is that racism?

Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'll go back to what Legalboxer said up thread .. sometimes the stereotyping isn't flagrant, but we should be called on it because if we keep stereotyping groups, that becomes a block to seeing people as individuals..

And how many of us just "grin and bear it" when others speak stereotypically of a group to which we belong. Uchenna might have just laughed with Lynn, but still might have felt a twinge inside (or NOT.. and I really cannot say, can I?)

Lynn was heard making that remark in the same seqment where he labelled the older couple as stupid, and in the past we've heard him make other questionable comments that seem race related (Tupac, Compton), so those things, taken together, lead some of us to question his judgement or his intentions.

Julie.. I'm going to wait until I see the actual show before I judge what happened with Rob.. that was a teaser and you know how often teasers are there to mislead us.

Last nights recrap showed me more strongly how Rob and Amber were immediately on the "hate" list.. just from re-hearing all the comments on leg one about "oh no, they're here!.. well, heck, yes, they are on the race, where do you expect them to be? and from the little clip from Ray.. his attitude was yeah, Rob was playing the game, so what? Bianca and her partner were the first to deliberately mislead another team by offering very bad advice about where to dig up the tickets, so they had little to complain about when someone else attempted to keep better info from them.. IMO..

Anyway, if I was being shunned like that, you can bet I wouldn't be "nice".

I think Spy made some good points, we have differing opinions and that's okay; lecturing or putting down those whose opinions differ isn't real helpful.

Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:33 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
What is Compton?

Rosie
Member

11-12-2003

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Compton is a city in Los Angeles County, California.

Legalboxer
Member

11-17-2003

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
sea - i think you have made great points in ALL your posts..


i had a question and it doesnt really matter to me - i still think its wrong to make that comment no matter who it is directed to but did they say "They were born to..." or "he was born to..." because some keep saying that U wouldnt have care etc but i thought they said "They were" and at least from the show it seemed like Joyce didnt have any known roots as U had

I know i mentioned it in my above post and i have talked about it before (months ago) but if anyone can watch "gentleman's agreement" with gregory peck, it is well worth it and its a strong message on the subtle forms of discrimination - ie the people who actually are against discrimination and are "good people" but still discriminate in small ways that fosters the stronger discrimination we all hate.

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sea, we are so on the same page.

Spear
Member

08-06-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 11:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Just a small correction -- Debbie and Bianca have said that they did not mislead Ron and Kelly:

http://entertainment.excite.com/celebgossip/tvginsider/id/03_22_2005_2.html


quote:

TVG: Bianca, settle a lingering question. Did you deliberately point Ron and Kelly to the wrong sandpile on the beach in Peru?
Debbie: We're glad you asked us this! We have to set it straight. I'm the one who went to go look for the piles, and Bianca somehow got the information wrong...
Bianca: Actually, Debbie, they did show what happened. If anyone has TiVo they can go back and look. I watched it again, and it showed that I said to Ron and Kelly, "There's a 7:00 and a 7:40 flight. I think the middle one is the 7:00." I don't know if they put the "I think" part in there, but they definitely showed that I told them there were two flights. When they got to the middle pile and saw it was 7:40, they should have gone on to the next one.




Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 11:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'll start off by saying that I do think Lynn's comment about them being "born" to carry things on their head was very un-PC. That said, he seems to be an equal opportunity offender, even saying un-PC things about them getting a "gay" and "b**chy" goat. So it seems that while he is great at making fun of others he can also poke fun at his demographic.

Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
But being gay, Lynn is free to make "gay goat" jokes, especially when talking to his gay partner, Alex.

Even the most well meaning, loving people among us sometimes say things that can be hurtful to some group. And while a gentle reminder or "calling out" to the well meaning person should be helpful or a learning opportunity, I have to admit that sometimes it just gets you directives to "lighten up", "chill out", "get a sense of humor", and I know I've just passed on some opportunities. And other times I feel I must speak.

(I'm not really referring to this thread, or tv show here).

Example.. back in the mid 80's I worked at a place where we had at least four men working who were HIV+/had AIDS diagnosis. I was aware of two of them, and was aware of who was gay at that location. Some were out, some were not. I was in the lunch room one day with one friend who was gay but not out and two of the newer hires, right out of college. One of them had just been to our Pasadena site for some hands on training and was giggling and telling us all the news and gossip.. and then she said that "a supervisor for her training> says that Chuck shouldn't be allowed to work here". Chuck was one of the "out" gay guys. My friend stiffened. So did I. I asked her, "why on earth not?" and she giggled again and said that Chuck had AIDS. Well, I wasn't aware that he had it, although I knew his partner did. I knew my friend was dying to react, but wouldn't. So, I told her that I didn't know if that was true or not, but I prayed that it wasn't, but that regardless of diagnosis, this supervisor had no place making that statement as part of a training! The younger woman did think about it and we talked about it more, as not really being something to gossip or joke about. After the others left I turned to my friend who confirmed that this was true and that Chuck had also been diagnosed. Later Chuck transferred down to our facility and he was a good friend of mine until he died. And the young women came to know him as a person, not a rumor, or diagnosis and were very fond of him. I also had a word with the head of HR about the supervisor. The young women weren't bad people and were repeating what a supposedly authoritative adult had said and I think the giggling was more out of nervousness.. they both had felt the sting of stereotypes, one having been one of the "boat people" from VietNam. The other had to deal with her name being a joke to many (her name was Ha and when her mom was dying of cancer she promised that when she came to the US she wouldn't take an "English" name.) I can remember when she was hired and someone said they couldn't call her "Ha" and as their manager I had to lift an eyebrow and say "I think you can manage that".

In my own life, I flinch when I hear joking "Sybil" references (multiple personalities) or any joking about psych diagnoses, because those are not funny things.

Julie, here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton,_California that should give some insight on Compton.

Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Spear, thanks for that information.. I feel a bit better about Debbie/Bianca.. also liked that one of them approached Rob to apologize. I like seeing the little details, probably the very ones that the producers hate for us to see, or at least like to dole out in small doses. And the good news was that Ron and Kelly weren't knocked ou by that misinformation (well I'd rather have Debbie and Bianca still in than Ron and Kelly)

Native_texan
Member

08-24-2004

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 1:35 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sea, because of my son, I have the same problem with the constant jokes heard about ADHD and bipolar disorder. I just try to remember that I was once uninformed also.

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 2:38 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I do agree with you Sea, that Lynn shouldn't be saying those things. But seeing him saying it also about the "gay" goat tells me that being snarky is a part of his personality and I can laugh at it easier knowing he'd snark on anyone about anything (rather than just picking on "others").


Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 2:44 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yes, I do think he'd probably be funny to hang out with.. I used to love Marcellas Reynolds at his snarkiest.. but they snark in front of cameras taking a risk of a backlash.

Penpoint
Member

03-27-2001

Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 4:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think it is impossible for anyone to think of a group or category of people without having a mental image of the group as a whole -- a stereotype image, if you will. Think of gay men, teenage girls, amputees, Italians, blacks, evangelicals, Japanese, southerners, elderly Jews, Republicans, housewives, basketball players, lawyers, or any other group. For each category, there will be several words that pop into your mind, many of them negative and stereotypical. That can't be helped. And there is nothing wrong with having those thoughts. Those images are formed by what you know of those groups, as groups. The important thing, and the real measure of your character, is how you view an individual from a particular group. Do you respect that person as an individual with his or her own characteristics and traits? Are you able to go beyond the group's traits and see the individual's traits?

Now as far as Lynne's comment, I don't see that he was attributing anything negative to Uchenna's ability to balance objects on his head. He was relating it to Uchenna's roots. The disrespect just wasn't there. And the comment about Meredith and Gretchen being stupid was Lynne's opinion of two individuals (if it wasn't just a frustrated aside) that had nothing to do with their age or gender or ethnicity or any group they might fit into. And when Lynne and Alex felt in danger, they compared it to being in Compton, an area that I understand is not very safe.

We all need to be sensitive to others, but Lynne and Alex were just being as human as the rest of us -- although some of us may self-edit the comments we utter in front of a camera, that depending on our individual traits.