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Riviere
Member
09-09-2000
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 1:24 am
It seemed like a blond vs. blond moment, one saying it was all her partner's idea to U-Turn anybody. Yet after Lorena's meltdown I wasn't unhappy to see her leave. Jason did take the elimination well but last week was Lorena's swan song ~ or should I say camel song? She was too hysterically frustrated as others witnessed.
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Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:26 am
SUrvivor Africa shooting the cows was awful as well, but it was ONE cow. IN AR Milking the camels was a another great example of cruelty to the animals. The teats are easily hurt and animals get restless and kick out of boredom. I;ve got experience with cows and goats. The camels were trussed up and ropes thru their mouths! I completely agree with the concept that AR is doing stuff that is 'local' with the country that they are in. However, these are live animals being thrown into a RACE for Money and stressed out often yelling upset team members. Anyways, the argument is weak IMHO that AR should be allowed to do stuff because it is 'allowed in that country'. Prostitution is legal in some areas of Amsterdams. Would the AR make a contestant do a 'lap dance' as part of the race? or turn a trick? If we are going to go along with the concept that it is A OKAY to do cruelty to animals in a foreign country because it is acceptable there, then ANY other passtime that is considered acceptable should be honored as well. anyways, Blah blah I blab too much.
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Tntitanfan
Member
08-03-2001
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 7:26 am
Good explanation of the difference in FF and Yield/U-Turn, Kar! I hadn't thought of it from that perspective -
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:46 pm
Not that it makes it any better, but just to clear up a misconception here, to my recollection they did not shoot a cow in Survivor Africa. They drained blood out of a living cow (the cow did not die).
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:56 pm
I'm surprised that so many people are so up in arms about the treatment of the animals on Sunday's episode. We in the western world have the luxury of being ignorant to how animals meant for consumption are treated. Most of us believe that chicken and beef comes from Safeway, all cleaned and wrapped and labeled for our freezer. Unfortunately, under developed countries don't have the luxury we have. As with any production, I'm certain that there were officials - if not on site, then at least during the planning process of the leg - to ensure that the animals were being treated within the confines of what is acceptable in the country they are in. I talked with a friend of mine after the episode, who recently returned from three years in Zambia. What we saw on the race the other night is tame in comparison to some of the stuff you'll see. Africa is not America. It never will be. I wonder what would happen if a group of African villagers saw footage of us westerners at a water park, or an all you can eat buffet. They'd be agape at the amount of waste we produce on a daily basis. I'm just sayin'... rocks and glass houses and all that. What we may find abhorrent is part of the daily life for an entire corner of the world.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 1:56 pm
I feel the same way Karen. When I was in college we had an exchange student from France come and stay with us. She brought photos of a family celebration they had and photos of the goat they ate in all stages: alive in the yard, hanging up with the blood draining out, on the BBQ, and on the plate. I was horrified, of course, because I just want my meat to magically appear on my plate. But this was an occasion to them -- something to be remembered. It's all about perspective and we are fortunate enough to have a very sheltered one.
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:14 pm
Wow Karen, you are a brave woman. I wrote basically the same thing yesterday but chickened out and edited myself. My grandparents had cows and we always butchered one for personal use (well, we HAD one butchered...we didn't do it ourselves). My grandmother used to point the chosen one out to me when I was younger but I finally stopped her...I didn't want to be personally acquainted with my supper.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:19 pm
I suppose it all depends on where you draw your moral line, doesn't it? Just because something routinely happens in another country does not mean we should accept it. I'm not sure it's appropriate to be asking people to participate in customs that they might find morally abhorrent. They also slaughter and butcher these animals as well. Would it be acceptable to ask the racers to participate in that activity?
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:36 pm
<77> Are you saying, Karuuna, that you would've refused to put a chicken in a bag? Leave the race and abandon your chance at a million bucks, all to keep the peace with a bird that will be killed for Sunday dinner anyways? The race was asking its participants to behave the same way the local farmers and vendors do, not the way the butcherhouses do. <77> Did we have a problem with the sausage making challenge a few seasons back, or was that OK because the animal was already dead and prepared for human consumption? I milked cows when I was a child, surely no more gently than the participants on the race. I was raised on a chicken farm and have chopped more than one head. It's a fact of life. We kill animals, and we eat them. It's been like that for thousands of years. I just choose not to live with my head in the clouds and see only what I want to see, pretty packages of meat wrapped in brown paper, forgetting how it got to that point in the first place. I'm grateful for TAR for showing us the harsh reality of the majority of the world. Makes me appreciate my roast pork dinner a bit more. ETA: Forgot that the teams can take a FOUR HOUR penalty if they choose not to do the task. Better be a pretty special goat or chicken.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:36 pm
Well, the racers can refuse, take a time penalty, and risk being eliminated. Didn't Kimmy do that on survivor 2 -- Refused to eat some meat product and lost a challenge for her team. And that woman on the current survivor walked out of a welcoming ceremony because it offended her religious side. No one forced anyone to do anything. Was there this much of an outcry when kids beheaded chickens for dinner on Kid Nation? 
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 3:38 pm
LOL, I'm always amazed when I make what's kind of a passing comment, and people take it for outrage. Karen, I mean what I said. That our own sensibilities about these things differ along our own moral sensibilities, where we draw our own moral line. I was not outraged at the scene, I was saddened, and even looked away a bit. But then again, I'm a vegetarian, so I live by a code that does not reinforce the poor treatment of animals in any country. IHowever, my point was that as individuals we all have our own moral values that color how we see these things, and where we draw the line. If people are saying that we shouldn't comment because it's the norm for that country, all I'm saying is that there are a lot of norms for other countries (and even this country) that people would find morally abhorrent. Where you draw the line depends on who you are, and your own moral values. Just because something is the norm for a certain country doesn't mean we can't find it reprehensible and should just accept it. We're all just commenting about how we individually viewed it, and we all have a right to do so. I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion, whether they agree with mine or not. 
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 3:43 pm
Part of the TAR experience is that you have to participate in customs and actions that are out of your "comfort zone." Remember the year when they had to drink the blood soup (still brings shudders and not only because Jonathan and Victoria were involved!)? And how many of you were wondering earlier this season if you could have ridden that bicycle across that high wire? I still haven't figured that one out! I applaud the compassion and empathy for animals shown by many on this board, and I am fundamentally against abject cruelty against animals, <48> Personally I would have liked to have seen that these animals were part of Heifer International and were being used to improve the lives of women and children in impoverished parts of Africa. But that's just my personal morality and viewpoint. <48>
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:05 pm
LOL, Karuuna, I didn't take it as outrage... maybe it's just PMS talking and I'm lookin' for a good debate. Guess the only argument I was trying to make is that one of the things I love, love, love about TAR is that it shows us the world and gives the racers a chance to experience the true lifestyle of the places they visit. It's easy for us to sit infront of the TV and have moral pangs of guilt when we look at the animals being treated, by western standards, poorly. The poor farmers and villagers who live that life, day to day, don't have the luxury of stopping to think, "Hey, is this morally reprehensible?". All they can think is, "Sweet! This goat will get me five bucks at market. My family can eat for a week, thank goodness."
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Julieboo
Member
02-05-2002
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:36 pm
Also, I noticed that my particular point has been overlooked. I am merely saying that I do not want to see the "torture." Yes it happens, here in the US and there in Africa. Does not mean I condone it. Does not mean I have my head in the clouds. Whether or not I eat hotdogs is not the point. It only means that seeing it ruins the episode for me. I want to watch a fun race. If I want to learn about other cultures, I will take a trip or read a book or seek out a documentary. TAR is supposed to be fun. And when they show that kind of stuff, it takes the fun out of it. Plus they could have easily found other things to do in the challenges.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-31-2000
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 8:59 pm
Karen, I agree with you, that I like TAR's cultural aspect. I think where I draw the line is participation in things that may be morally ambiguous versus observing them. So it's one thing to show the trash and abject poverty. It's another thing to become a participant (and a poor clumsy one at that) in a ritual that imvolves strapping a small goat down in a basket and to a bicycle that a few of them kept dropping. I'm sure the locals don't have guilt pangs because that is the life they have grown up with, much like those who have grown up on farms in the US. To me, it just is morally ambiguous enough that it tread squarely on the line of inappropriate if not quite crossing it. Why add to the animals suffering? I'm pretty sure the locals don't dump their bikes as often as our racers did. Imagine if that hoisting exercise had involved live animals instead of furniture! Again, the locals would never be as clumsy and banged the furniture around like our racers do. I'm sure they were compensated, but the point is, I think it's more responsible to keep these clumsy characters away from the livestock. To me the bottom line is that we could have seen some of those things, and been impacted by them, without having the racers actually do them, and poorly at that. Thank you, I have truly enjoyed the dialog!
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Konamouse
Member
07-16-2001
| Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:27 pm
We enjoy seeing how other people live and the real culture that Amazing Race showcases (even if it is prettied up a little compared to the REAL horror of the poverty of lives in other cities around the world). The presence of Amazing Race brings $$ to these villages and towns - and to the people who participate in the challenges (YAY!). But we Americans/Canadians need to <48> remember that food doesn't get to the supermarket without some sacrifice. It's good to be reminded of that fact (similar to what the kids did in Kid Nation when they needed to slaughter a couple of chickens). Racers always have the option not to participate. And we always have the option to turn off the tv (or fast forward if you recorded the show).

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Gurliegirl
Member
06-20-2006
| Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:12 am
Has anyone pointed out that the Chicken was a GIFT from the leader of the village? It was expected by the tribal leader that they take a chicken, put it in a bag, and keep it for themselves. (I tend to wonder if they had chicken for dinner that night). And, the goats were on pillows. And there was only one small goat. It's not like they were packed into the basket on top of other goats like the people they were driving behind earlier. I thought the treatment was relatively humane compared to the way the local residents were treating them. I wasn't offended at all. Except for maybe one guy who kept the bag just a little to tight around the chicken.
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Stacey718995
Member
07-06-2007
| Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 8:15 pm
I am behind as I just watched the show tonight. I have to say I am surprised that I couldn't find a PETA statement anywhere online tonight. Everyone has their own beliefs. I enjoy that they show the culture in other countries as it is. I feel proud to live in the country that I do. I don't think that showing another country's culture means that a popular American tv/game show has to particpate in anything more than showing the culture. I was disappointed that they did. I understand completely that that is part of another country's culture, I am not saying that they should starve or even that they are wrong in that may be the only way for them. But it isn't the only way for us and I really just thought it was unnecessary for the competition and for the purpose of tv.
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Skydiver6
Member
07-21-2006
| Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:04 pm
Racers always have the option not to participate. And we always have the option to turn off the tv (or fast forward if you recorded the show). We also have the option to express our feelings against using these animals in this way. I do not want to turn off my TV or not watch AR. I love AR. I just want to see it without innocent animals being used as props. I love seeing the different parts of the world and seeing the culture good and bad but I don't want to see the racers partaking in something that is hurting others. I see a big difference between the killing of the chickens on Kid Nation and the use of these animals on AR. The chickens on KN were treated ok until the moment of their deaths. Just because we are going to kill an animal and eat it, does not mean we need to treat it without compassion and love. Also as I've stated before I don't think it's a big cultural thing. We Americans mistreat animals in this country too! Has anyone seen the caged chickens where many of our eggs come from? How about veal calves? How about puppy mills? That's just to name a few. I will not eat veal. I only buy eggs from cage free chickens. I would never buy a puppy from a pet store. I also try to raise awareness to all these things. I do not stick my head in the clouds. ETA: Forgot that the teams can take a FOUR HOUR penalty if they choose not to do the task. Better be a pretty special goat or chicken. Honestly if I was on the race I would have done just that! The money would not be worth it to me. I would rather take a stand for better treatment of the animals. That would be worth more than any money to me. Every goat and chicken and camel and donkey is special to me.
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Allietex
Member
08-16-2002
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 8:32 am
Strange to me that on Survivor, Leslie was critized for refusing to participate in a local custom. <57> On TAR it is the show that is critized for having the players participate in a task that is part of the local culture. But they had the same opportunity to refuse to participate that Leslie had. And Leslie had no way of knowing what the result of her refusal would be. Now, I have no problem with a player refusing to participate in a custom that is objectionable to them. I supported Leslie's decision completely because it was important to her. And I would have supported someone on TAR if they refused to participate in a task on moral grounds. <57>
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Brenda1966
Member
07-03-2002
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 9:51 am
Allietex, I'm puzzled by it too. I really didn't see why a goat in a basket was so horrible. People lock thier dogs in kennels all day. I never thought that was a very nice thing to do to a dog that could be out laying in the sunshine or chasing squirrels. People carry small dogs in purses. Maybe if the chicken had been in a rhinestone purse it wouldn't have been so offensive? 
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:02 am
LOL at the rhinestone purse, Brenda!! Tntitanfan, is this the kind of dialogue you were looking for? Here we are on Thursday, still discussing Sunday's show! ETA: I wonder if maybe instead of debating the treatment of the animals here on the board, or instead of writing to CBS to complain about the treatment, I wonder if some of this thought and discussion couldn't be better focused if it were turned towards actually helping said animals. Here's a site that could be a good start: Animal Rights Africa
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:54 pm
Quite frankly I'm more worried about the African people who are dying from malnutrition and starvation, and from the brutality of one tribe attacking one another, than I am worried about the animal rights in Africa. So while I respect your opinion and have enjoyed this debate <57> See, this is the problem when they only show a GREAT program once a week.
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:06 pm
Wanted to send you a PM, Roxip. It has been a fun debate, hasn't it?
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:23 pm
I've found it to be a pretty tough though interesting issue. For example, even animals in North America are relatively confined, particularly during transportation. It's not something I feel good about, but I'm also not a vegetarian either.
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:57 pm
Yes I hate to be behind a truck filled with chickens. I always wonder how they survive on the flatbed of an 18-wheeler. And I also hate to be behind them because they stink! Wow, I didn't realize that I didn't accept private messages...how elitist of me! Believe me, I must have clicked that in my sleep because I love to get messages...LOL!
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Tntitanfan
Member
08-03-2001
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 7:18 am
LOL, Karen! Actually this is not exactly the topic I would have picked for several days of dialogue, BUT I am happy to no longer be alone in this thread. Any discussion is good discussion as far as I am concerned - I LOVE this show! Roxip - In addition to the concerns you name above, AIDS is so rampant in most countries that sex education starts in the primary grades to try to educate little ones how to avoid infection!
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 7:40 am
Yes, and the fact is that many young girls are raped (children actually) because men infected with the HIV virus believe that they will be cured if they have sex with a virgin. OH LORD!
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Karen
Member
09-07-2004
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 10:58 am
Honestly, I've found this debate fascinating. I love that this board can bring out some fantastic points from both sides of the issue. I love that TAR has heightened an awareness of issues facing the rest of the world. I'd love to see some action come of it, instead of just empty discussion for or against what we saw. A very close friend of mine - we used to share a playpen together, we've known each other so long - is cofounder of a charity called The Water Project in Ghana. This is a water harvesting project, designed to help the villagers collect rainwater during the wet season and store it safely for the dry season. My best friend from high school, who recently spent three years in Zambia, was working for the non-profit group Water Aid. This group helps test soil for imperfections before digging wells, and helps the villages keep the well water clean. Engineers Without Borders is also working in Africa, helping with sustainable energy and building structures. Doctors Without Borders provides much needed medical attention and prevention. I know none of the sites I linked refer directly to the animal issues we're discussing here, but I think everyone can agree that Africa can use all the help we can send. Maybe, during this season of giving, we can turn <57> what we saw on TAR into something positive.
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 11:17 am
Last year I gave money in lieu of gifts to Heifer International for the three attorneys I work for. The difference between their income and mine is, of course, quite huge, and I can never "match" the presents they give themselves (and wouldn't even try because it would embarrass them). They seemed to have liked being honored with a charitable donation and since then have given to Heifer International themselves.
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Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:18 pm
I did a lot of self-censoring in this post... The plight of suffering people, animals, and wildlife around the globe will never improve so long as the more fortunate among us continue to overlook their abuse and exploitation. I don't think that respecting other cultures and understanding the often stark differences in lifestyles and traditions means checking your conscience at the door. Just because a practice is commonplace doesn't mean that objecting to it is a sign of ignorance or arrogance. I agree with the posts by Karuuna, Stacey718995, and Skydiver6 (although I only saw part of the first epi of Kid Nation and didn't see any chicken killing, thank heavens). As I no longer watch Survivor, I don't know about that situation mentioned. However I can recall many tasks where TAR participants have been criticized for everything from inappropriate attire to disrespectful behavior. In the case of the chickens and the baby goats though, yes, I do fault TAR. Btw, I'm also from farming country and baby goats, even very, very young ones, are among the most playful and energetic creatures you could ever hope to encounter. I literally recoiled at the sight of those poor bound animals just lying in those baskets. ETA: that line in the first paragraph about Kid Nation
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Konamouse
Member
07-16-2001
| Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:42 pm
And if shows like TAR didn't SHOW these issues, we would not know they existed.

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Skydiver6
Member
07-21-2006
| Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 7:35 am
They could show it but not participate in it.
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